"It's tragic how many lives Karen has ruined and how many people she has gotten killed."
Except this literally isn't true at all unless we're infantalizing grown-ass adults and blaming Karen for the choices and actions of others.
Even if people want to make an argument that Karen has ruined lives and gotten people killed, so has many other beloved characters, most notably Matt.
This show is about a blind man doing reckless things, putting himself and others in danger, ruining people's lives/getting people hurt because of their association with him, yet Matt stans wanna hate Karen for uncovering conspiracies and exposing corrupt officials.
🩷⚔️ We have been loving all the videos and content from @bloomsburypublishing ‘s Valkyrie workout class! It got us in the mood to don some 💖 pink 💖 and kick the rest of the week’s butt. How are we feeling, Valkyries?! What are you most excited for in ACOTAR 6?
Karen and Frank: a deep dive into their relationship
The Punisher season 1 & 2 (part 2)
Read part 1, part 2 and part 3 first to understand the context better (this is becoming longer that i thought it would be). I left off in the middle of season 1 episode 9 and that's where I'm jumping right into sooo let's go!!!
Micro finds Lewis's address and Frank picks up a gun, ready to go. Micro suggests an alternative and have Curtis intervene but Frank insists he's doing this his way. There is no way he will leave someone threatening Karen on the loose, which Micro has to reluctantly accept.
Meanwhile Karen is talking to an FBI agent at the Bulletin. She receives an anoymous call which of course, it's Frank. He expresses concern over going after Lewis since now she has a target on her back and Karen asks what was she supposed to do, since he chose her.
Frank asks if the FBI is there, and to stay put until she hears from him.
Karen asks why she's hearing from him and what does he have to do with the guy. "If you do tell me, I can go to the FBI and we can deal with this."
Karen never stops offering Frank her support, in whatever he has to do, but as we said previously Frank has a bit of self-sabotaging tendencies and refuses to accept help from those who doesn't wanna put at risk.
I think what I also like about them is that he never doubts her doing cause he thinks she might not be capable or questions her morals (he even compliments her about having a gun in her bag at all times), every questioning that comes from Frank in her regards are strictly connected to how much risk it can occur for her safety. Cause thats what Frank cares about at the end of the day.
Frank tells her that it's faster his way and Karen remarks that in that way, it doesnt make him that much different from Lewis and he says "We're plenty different and you know it." It's so funny to me that she's clocking his ass because she spent the previous hourse defending him on the radio sdjkfnkjsd. She's like if someobody speaks ill on you I'll defend you but don't expect that treatment from me! Love her lol
"Do not do this and say it is for me." "Just stay put."
Oh Karen if only you knew the mental breakdown he was going through after he heard Lewis was threatening you...I wish you could have heard.
And it's so beautifully and organically confirmed 2 scenes later when Micro calls him and tells him: "You have to do whatever it takes to take care of the people you love."
And mind you! Micro up to that point only knew that Frank cared about two things: his family & Karen (whom he compared to Micro's wife too).
In that Frank has always been consistent even though his own mess of a mind doesn't always put him on the right direction. When it's said that Karen is his moral compass, I truly belive it.
It's a quality I believe he shares with Karen. They're both compassionate even if in their own different ways. For example, Karen has always believed in him and Frank shows that gratitude through acts of service. Whether or not those are approved by Karen is another story. I like to say that he's pretty much devoted to her. At the end of the day, Frank loves to help people in complicated situations just as much as she does. Sure Karen tries to get more inside their minds while Frank is more of a call to action, but it also mean they complete each other when you think about it!
When talking to Lewis on the phone (when he says "nobody gets hurt I think he meant Karen especially) Frank without realizing does the same thing Karen did to him: he provokes him. To the point that even Curtis is disappointed in him "Are you trying to get us killed?"
So again, they're not so different. They just used slightly different methods to do so.
"Not as long as hacks like Karen Page think they can write or say whatever it is they want. [...] They're not safe."
Lewis...you don't know what you just got yourself into.
Back at the Bulletin, Mr Ellison shows Karen a report on the news that shows a sight of Frank in public. "Did you know?"
In episode 10 Frank calls Billy to inform him that Lewis is targeting Ori. Billy asks what the deal between him and the kid is, Frank responds "We have unfinished business."
I like to think that also includes protecting Karen from him so that's why I'm pointing this out.
After the call ends, Karen arrives at the hotel, introducing herself to Billy (aka shit's about to go down).
While Karen's interviewing the senator, a bomb goes off. Frank and Lewis enter the room and Lewis is trying to shoot the senator but he manages to run away, leaving Karen there. Lewis picks up her and points out a gun to her head.
We then cut to Karen talking to officer Mahoney. She says Ori was lying about going to get help. She also denies that Frank and Lewis are working together. Karen tells him Frank would never bomb innocent civilians.
"It's funny how you and Castle keep...bumping up together."
Excuse her sir...that's her emotional supportive cosmic fated soulmates situationship
"In your opinion, why was he even here?"
"I think he was looking out for me."
Baby is smitten omg
She adds that if it weren't for Frank the senator would be dead. "Shooting a senator for a political opinion, does that sound like Frank Castle to you?"
This is a side note that goes beyond Kastle but i truly did like what they did with Karen in this season. Her doing her job on the side while Frank is dealing with his stuff and sometimes the two things collide...I'll never stop campaigning for her to have an important role in a future punisher solo project. I do think she fits so much better in his side of things than she does in the dd one, which sounds crazy since they're all connected and she's a character from Daredevil's world. I still enjoy watching her there it's just that she doesn't work as a romantic fold to Matt as well as she does with Frank. If her and Matt were allowed to stay just friends who help each other when in need I think I would enjoy it much more.
And we're back at the starting point: the explosion of the bomb and Lewis trying to kill the senator. It also shows Karen checking her gun in his purse. Just like a Frank in a sense, she has an immediate call to action.
Frank jumps right in front of Karen before Lewis shoots her. The senator manages to escape but Lewis holds Karen in his arms, threatening that he's wearing a bomb. At that point Frank is full on panicking but still trying to talk Lewis throught it and calm him down.
I think you can see very well the distress in his face.
The situation at this point is very tense. They're in the hallway, some cops are trying to intervene, Franks puts his gun in his pocket to show he's not trying to hurt Lewis and Karen is the one in the most difficult situation since she's trapped by the bomber.
"I will come for you."
Chills, literal chills.
Agent Madani and Karen meet briefly before she goes in to talk to Mahoney. Dinah at this point has understood that Karen has lied to her about Frank not being alive. Dinah reveals that there's a lot of people who want Frank dead and she doesn't want that to happen. Karen immediately tenses up and asks who.
"If you know who, do something about it."
"I need Frank. You two have a connection, I know that."
I wonder if Madani meant simply as in "you can easily contact him" or in the double sense of "there's something between you too". Probably the former since she technically never saw them together except maybe on TV during the trial but I like the double implication the dialogue plays here.
Madani asks Karen to tell Frank to contact her if she's able to see him, cause she knows how to help him.
"He's not who they say he is. Saved my life. Again." (Cue the attempt shooting scene in Daredevil s2, a big fave moment on mine as I've mentioned).
Also I love that she gets to remark that he's not a bad person every chance that she gets. No one has ever believed in him more than her.
Back in the hotel's kitchen, Karen is trying to reason with Lewis and convince him that nobody else needs to die for his doing. Lewis is upset at Karen, tells her that he thought she would understand him, Karen offers him help to understand. I think Lewis probably saw Frank's trial and thought that Karen was gonna reason with his motives too. What he failed to notice (but we, as the audience do) is that Karen has always being scared with him while she's never been scared with Frank, not even when she hadn't his motives clear.
Frank finally reaches Karen, assures Lewis he's unarmed, and tries to stop Lewis from blowing up (literally). He says out loud looking at Karen that the white wire is what he pulled to save Curtis back at his house. Karen understands what he's getting at. Frank once again asks Lewis to let Karen go, but he doesn't budge.
As Frank tries to distract Wilson by talking to him about his dad, Karen desperately tries to pull out the white wire from the bomb and Frank in the meantime shakes his head everytime she's touching the wrong wire. She finally succeeds in freeing herself and also manages to shoot Lewis's foot in the process, thanks to Frank reminding her the gun she has in her bag. They would work very well as a dynamic duo me thinks!
Lewis while closed behind a door, reassembles the broken wire and implies he's going to make the bomb explode. Karen exhorts Frank to get out of that kitchen but Frank refuses, pushing her to get out of there alone. Neither her nor him want to listen to the other. Frank wants Karen to be safe above everything else, and Karen is not leaving without him.
Lewis blows the bomb up and Frank and Karen manage to get away from the big explosion just in time, even though they remain injured. And we get this beautiful, tender shot:
"Are you okay?"
He holds her with such care and softness oh the buzzzzzzz. See I try to keep this a professional analysis but they make me so giddy I can't fdkjgnkdf
A bunch of cops and officer Mahoney are waiting for Frank just outside the kitchen, so they pretend Karen is being held at gunpoint by the him in front of them to get out of the situation. And this is how we get to the elevator scene™ (I was so excited to talk about it):
Also I love that before escaping Frank hands Karen his gun. Partners in crime indeed! These two need to work together again listen to me Marvel !
There's so many positive things for me to say about this scene. First of all, Karen is concerned about seeing him that wounded, probably took her back in time a little bit. I wish we got to see a patching up moment (born again you will pay for your crimes). But now let's get to the mother of all scenes.
You can literally hear his breath stopping as soon as their foreheads touch. Sometimes things like these are way more intimate and romantic than a kiss is.
I wonder if they both thought they weren't gonna see each other again in that moment and they were sort of going for a goodbye kiss type of deal. It's what it felt a bit to me (I'll get back to this concept during the s2 analysis). But were they ready to cross the line? I think Karen was. It's Frank who wasn't.
I think kissing her would have made him realize the actual weight of his feelings for her and he's not in a mental state where he can allow himself to accept that. Frank is so sure he cannot recreate the happiness he once had anymore, especially not when Karen was so close to risking her life because of him. And so, he doesn't even let himself have one kiss. At the end of the day, that's where lies the complicated nature of their relationship. He'd rather be out of her life completely than cause any harm to her. But for how long can he truly be okay with not ever seeing her again? How many times he's been wondering if she was danger and he wasn't there to save her? For how long can he pretend he wouldn't fuck the entire world up just to save her? He can't let himself be happy at the risk of losing again someone he’s in love with. Cause in the end that's what it is. It might take a while to get him properly to that, but those feelings are in motion.
"Take care."
I love you sooo, please let me gooooo (I say while everything hurts)
Its the fact that all of their final moments in a season are Frank asking her to be careful, to take care etc it hurts so bad that it's so good you guys what an angst, what a ship!
As for Karen, well I think she has it written all over her face undeniably (she still is 10 years later lol. It's easier to forget someone you've been with than someone who've had almost but never was with. And almost is truly a recurring theme in Kastle's history. We'll come back to that).
Poor baby's devasted, look at her.
We go back to present to hear the rest of Karen and Mahoney's conversation where Karen's explaining how Frank is the one who saved lives and he's not a terrorist. Mahoney says he should arrest her for helping him escape and she rebuts that if Frank's a terrorist, then that makes her a victim. The officer obviously doesn't believe her.
Mahoney then asks Karen where Frank is and she responds that she doesn't know. "Do you really think Castle's the kind of guy who walks into a building he doesn't know how to get out of?"
Episode 11 opens with Frank thinking about his wife (amogst other things) and I find that so interesting, especially since it's been actually a while since she had visions of her. He has that moment with Karen and they come back. I'm not saying the two things are necessarily connected, but I'm #noticing anyway.
"You'd rather be dead than feeling?"
At the end of episode 11 Madani and Frank finally meet up to talk. Micro can't believe he called her and Dinah adds that neither can she. I wonder if that was also something of Karen's doing that happened off screen. Guess we'll never know.
Frank officially introduces himself as himself to Leo and the kid tells him "He's a lot scarier than Pete" and he agrees. I think this makes a point to what will be his brief fling with Beth in S2.
I was also thinking that it's good that Billy never got to truly understand the nature of the bond between Karen and Frank otherwise he would have totally used her to get to him (if there's a fanfiction about that let me know).
Billy telling him that all the people around Frank are dead because of him must have stuck in his brain for a long time.
I wonder if Karen got actually to be informed about what happened they last saw each other in the elevator. Season 1 concludes with Frank being a "free" man even though we really don't know what free exactly means to him.
Season 1 ends with Frank saying that it's the first time he doesn't have to live with a war to fight and he's scared.
Now, onto season 2.
I gotta say I was pretty disappointed to learn Karen had a very small role in it. It feels to me that she needed to be more pivotal seeing how they've built their worlds colliding. I don't know if it was due to some external motives like perhaps Deborah Ann Woll's schedule was too busy and they couldn't find more than an episode to squeeze her in? I'm not sure what it was. I don't know how Kastle shippers survived back then but I admire your endurance! We are surviving just like Frank and Karen in their fucked up world!
There are however some crucial scenes to discuss.
In episode 1 Frank meets Beth, who's working in a bar. Some drunk guys tries to make pretty aggressive advances on her and Frank defends her from him by punching him. Beth asks Frank his name and he uses his fake name from s1: Pete.
It's a Frank a bit different from the one we've seen in s1. A lot less troubled I would say. Maybe not entirely at peace, but definitely in a more calmer state of mind.
Frank and Beth flirt at the bar and then she invites him for a drink at her place. While talking he discovers she has an 8 year old kid named Rex. Beth thinks it might bother him but I think it's actually what interests him more about her. She also asks Frank if she has someone waiting outside the porch for him and Frank replies that he wouldn't be there if there was (a loyal man!). Anyway that's a lie cause you know damn well Karen's waiting---
Frank and Beth end up hooking up. I think it's important to mention cause I've seen around a lot of discourse on how Frank's pained by the guilt of loving another woman after his wife but he seems to have no problem having intercourse with one. Granted, it is different. You can have sex with no feelings and Frank had been severely touch starved at that point. But Karen for Frank has never been a matter of lust. I don't think Frank would ever have sex with Karen just because. If it were with her, I believe it'd come from a place of love.
Despite him being honest with Beth about losing his wife and kids being with her is definitely easier cause it's someone who doesnt know every part of him. It's someone who doesn't know him as the Punisher.
Karen knows every part of him. She knows the man and she knows the killing machine. And even if he wasn't open with her, Karen would still read his mind like a book.
And now for the most clown moment Frank Castle has ever been in his life I present to you:
Talking about Karen with another woman in bed after sex!!! Round of applause for the smartest clown in the circus!
"I had this friend, said that we're all lonely. And all life is, is just trying not to be." Those words really stuck with you uh Frank?
He has the audacity to smile like this while talking about her who do you think you're fooling mr Castle?
Oh Karen Page...you're always on his mind...your power.
Beth immediately clocks him. "It was a woman who told you that wasn't it?" "Yeah it was."
Holy yearning, somebody save him.
Even Beth looks shortly at his expression after realizing he's gone silent lol.
Frank tells her he doesn't feel lonely in that moment. I think it's probably one of the first times he considers he can have a peaceful life with someone else. To the point he recklessly confesses to her that his name is actually Frank, not Pete and that he did some stuff he just need to be Pete for and doesn't offer any other explanation. What matters to him right now is not the past, but that said past doesn't come to her front door and he promises her they won't.
I don't think Frank was in love with her or anything of the sort (I mean how could he be, they had just met) but he was in love with the idea of starting a new life with a woman who already had a kid on her own. In his mind this was probably the best chance he can get at having some illusion of a happy family again. But how much could have that last with someone who had no 180 of the real him?
"Guess you gotta take the good when it comes right?" Well...that's what he's doing I'm afraid. Maybe in some sick twisted way, he's doing what Karen wanted for him: to not be alone.
Frank is about to leave Beth's house when he meets her son and the 3 of them go get pancakes. I think this also solidifies Frank's desire to have what he's currently lacking: which makes him go back to the bar the night after.
Frank helps Amy get rid of the people going after her and that causes a whole brawl at the bar and Beth ends up shot because of it. No matter how hard he tries troubles follow Frank around. He also loses his wedding ring in the process.
At this point he jumps right into punisher mode again.
In episode 4 Curtis tells him that not caring about anybody, running away from all kinds of feelings, worrying about nobody but himself is miserable, but it's easy. It can be applied to Karen too.
In episode 7 Curtis tells him:
"You hate standing still, that's why you always look for a fight Frank." [...] Most people are just looking for a place to be happy to stand still in. Someone to do it with."
Frank replies that he had that but that now it's gone.
"So you deny yourself another shot at it?" (and the person who offers him that is Karen big sigh. It's heartbreaking when I think about it cause she probably thought she would have managed to convince him somehow, that her love was stronger than the mess in his head. Frank doesn't believe it and makes the mistake he'll regret for the rest of his life).
Episode 7: Frank tells Curtis about Beth and how she wanted to help his kid but then she got shot and everything went downhill. To me he is quite over romanticizing what happened with Beth cause like....he knew her for two days. He just wanted a safe place to stay and hide from himself. At end of the day, the punisher is also part of Frank as much as his humanity, and he can't really escape from that either. He can instead find a purpose and use his abilities for good, which I believe is the point where we're at after OLK.
At the end of episode 10, Frank thinks he is the cause of death of three (innocent) women and this absolutely devastes him.
"I know how to break Castle. Take him away the idea that he's somehow better than you, that he's good."
And you know who made him believe in the fact that he's good? Exactly.
Finally in episode 11, Karen returns. She's at the hospital where Frank is staying, and she's trying to gain the access to see him. Of course my girl is smart and manages to gain access from the cop guarding the door.
"She's good. It's his lawyer."
Mind you, this is the first time she's seeing him since the elevator. It's gonna break me to talk about this scene. I'm so glad there's an "after" to comment on otherwise I'd be losing my mind, truly.
When Karen enters the room, she finds Frank sleeping. She sits at his side of the bed.
She's so worried for her man look at her.
Frank wakes up and hears Karen's voice asking him how he's feeling. What gets me is that he can't even bare to look at her face. She tells him that something about this feels kind of familiar (a callback of course to their fist meeting) and that she's been watching the news and assumes this has something to do with Billy Russo.
Karen keeps asking him questions but Frank doesn't reply nor looks at her. He simply says: "You should walk away."
The stunt Russo pulled took an intense toll on him mentally. How can he look at Karen in the face, the person who more than anyone else has always believed in his goodness, if he thinks he made such an impure action that did not respect the "code of honor" Karen has always been vehemently insisting on since she met him? Why should Karen even be there by his side?
"You think you can scare me off that easy? You know better than that. Besides I don't really think you want me to go." I love that he slightly reacts when she says the last part. (This reminded me so much when in Born Again Karen tells him "I don't believe you don't care.").
Truly though. She's been by his side when all of NY thought he was a cold-blooded murder. That's not gonna do anything on her.
"It's a tough situation. It's nothing we haven't dealt with before. We just have to figure out what to do about it." It's always been a we for her and it's so sweet when I think about it. There is no trouble Karen Page would not help Frank Castle with and viceversa.
Frank finally confesses what has damaged him. He says he killed three women. Karen offers his help.
"You're not gonna fix this. Okay?"
"It doesn't matter what you did. It doesn't change of I feel about you."
"It should."
"It doesn't."
The desperation in her voice pains me so much. I think she was trying to reassure him that she could never stop seeing him as a good person, no matter what he believes in his head. Obviously Karen doesn't know the contest of the killing but she knows in heart that it wasn't intentional on his part, especially cause she above all can have the privilege to say she knows Frank well.
Frank has a nightmare about Maria and the kids and wakes up abruptly. Karen is still by his side, listening to him talk about how he had finally decided that he was gonna stay home and be with his family, just right before the tragedy happened.
I like how he's still resisting the urge to look at her, but not her touch. It's another one of those moments where Kastle has the ability to convey a very intimate moment without actually kissing and once again, they're more romantic than a kiss is.
When he talks about wanting to hold onto the laughters even in his dreams, it made me think so much about his halluctionation of Karen in OLK. I mean the parallel there serves a very specific purpose already but...yeah this is to say that if Frank really loves he's gonna hallucinate you at some point I don't know!
Anyway thats not the focus here. He basically compares what happened to his family to the lives of those women he took. Karen reassures him that he couldn't have known.
"Right there I would have killed anything that got in my way. You know what it means right? That now I'm the monster." The fact that he's telling this to Karen that fought so much for him to never been addressed that way. In a way, I do think he thinks he failed her. That he let her down, so why Karen should be at her side still?
Heck Karen getting the fuck away from him would probably be one of his biggest punishments. He concludes saying he deserves to die which makes Karen tear up and squeeze his hand even more.
I love that first he looks at her and then down at their intertwined hands.
I wish I could find the gif of this moment cause they're literally stroking each other's fingers tenderly. Again, intimacy that goes way overboard without it being with a kiss.
Amy enters the room and looks like she just caught two lovers having their little private moment fdjgnkjdf
Karen and Amy introduce themselves to each other (kinda? I think they're both trying to figure out the role they play respectively in Frank's life lol)
Karen's even passive aggressive to her kdgnkdf "They need protection from every hitman in NY or so she says whoever she is."
Amy asks both Karen and Dinah for help to get Frank out of the hospital. Meanhile Russo calls Dinah threatening her and Frank's safety.
Karen especially is so tense while hearing Billy's threats.
Outside the hospital Dinah and Karen are talking about the women that Frank supposedly kill. Karen insists that if there is even a slight chance that he didn't do it they need to check that out and offers to help her get in the morgue to check the bodies.
By examining the victims, they find out that the shots that actually killed were taken only a few feet away from them, Karen is relieved to know this means Frank did not in fact kill them.
A fake cop tries to kill Frank, Amy stops him and then also Dinah and Karen come to the rescue. Karen tells Frank that she did not kill the women, everything was a set up.
"You're not a monster. You never were."
Frank asks to be freed from the cuffs so he can go take care of the fake cop. Karen tries to tell him that they need a plan before acting everything out and ends up yelling at him to listen to her. Frank asks Madani and Amy to leave them alone for a bit.
"Can I ask you something? That Matt Murdock...does he know you're here?"
Karen doesn't respond.
"Yeah that's what I thought."
"What does that have to do with this?"
"Come on Karen, he is good. Don't throw that away from me."
I truly believe he's lying about Matt being good for her fgknfkd I feel like he's more saying so cause he wants her to find happiness far away from him and never been involved with risking her life ever again, but what he fails to realize is that, at that point, Karen doesn't care. She has made her choice. She accepts Frank how he is. Frank instead, made the choice for her.
While Karen is unlocking the handcuffs he asks her to walk way (even though he looks like a kicked puppy in the process). Hello Frank it's me from the future and you're sooooo gonna regret this.
"Come on, Karen. Look, I know you. You're brave. You're strong, but you're so goddamn stubborn and you will throw everything away for me and I cannot let that happen." Well looking at her right now....she isn't much happier Frank isn't she? I wish you knew!
"So it's okay for them to risk everything but not me?"
Karen makes a good point. Frank's point is that Dinah's lost as much as he is and Amy needs him to stay alive. In his head, Karen doesn't. Karen is much better off and happier without him ruining her life and bringing her to her dark side. I also believe is that he cannot live with the idea of losing Karen. It's not something he tells her directly but we know it's at the core of his train of thought.
"What if there's a better way? What if you and I figure it out together?"
And there it is. Karen offering him a chance of a better life, with her.
"There's no cozy ending, not for me."
"You cannot keep loving people in your dreams!" Oh Karen...if only you knew now what his dreams consists of...
"There's no light at the end of the road Karen."
"There could be if you let it."
"You could choose to love someone else instead of another war." My poor girl was in trenches omfg.
"I don't want to."
Frank tells Karen that he's gonna kill all the people that go after Amy and if she really wants to be apart of all of that.
"Karen I can't tell how much it means to me that you came here. You sat with me."
I always appreciate when his soft side comes out because of Karen. Cause after all, we're not talking about a man who’s taking the decision of keeping Karen away from him wholeheartedly . This is a man who couldn't even hold her gaze when thinking he failed her a good person. This is a man who’s broken and hurt by said decision but cannot bring himself to be happy with her when there's so many other things he has to deal with. Once again his self sabotaging part really plays out. He didn't think he was good enough for her. He doesn't think she should throw away her entire life to adapt to his lifestyle. It's so tragically beautiful. Also I know man regrets everything he ever said in that hospital room so I'm good with him suffering for a bit.
"So make it mean something."
"I gotta walk out of here and you can't do it with me."
Had not Amy interrupted here they were so gonna kiss. Was it gonna be the goodbye kiss he didn't get to give her in the elevator room? Probably. In a way it means that this time, he was ready to give in. And maybe who knows, that kiss could have been a goodbye and a promise.
I love that Kastle circles a lot around the "almost" of it all. The kisses that almost happened, the suggestion of being happy that almost happened, the almost making up with a cup of coffee. I love it cause it tells that their story isn't over. It never was. Cause there's so much stuff they're not telling each other, they're both still haunting each other and so on. And that's what makes it so compelling to watch.
Amy jokes: "You guys are the cutest. I'm almost jealous. But do you mind if we continue this heart to heart once we're outta here?"
The face of a man who knows he fucked up big time.
Before leaving, Karen makes her last good deed to help Frank by activating the fire alarm, allowing him to escape.
We then find out that the favor the morgue guy asked Karen were her shoes. Mahoney asks her what happened to them.
"Gave them away for a worthy cause."
Cause Frank has always been her worthy cause, since the beginning. Nobody else saw the light in him like she did.
"Good luck, Frank." while he can't hear her gave me such "Stay safe." in Born Again vibes. ughhhh why they gotta be like this.
I think the difference in the pain of letting her go can also be seen in the way he's happy that Amy gets to have a new life for example. He would be happy for Karen too, but a lot more in pain. And he literally gives her the speech Karen was trying to give him. Moving on with her life, leaving that life in the past. He can wish happiness for others, never for himself.
"Sometimes you find things and they change your life." I wonder if that could apply to Karen too, who knows.
And that concludes Kastle's journey in the Punisher series. It's been one hell of a ride, but I cannot wait to talk about the next and final segment, which is the MCU part and I cannot wait. Stay tuned!! This took me the whole night to write I'm not even kidding lol
"Karen doesn't have feelings for Frank, that's why she didn't stay with him, and chose Matt." Do these people ignore or have they never watched episode 2x11 of TP? I think it's an episode that clearly answers all the questions and defines the relationship between Kastle and the characters in what we're seeing in the current MCU. The one who didn't want to be with someone there was none other than Frank himself, who kind of made that decision for both of them to distance Karen from his life as a vigilante since she HERSELF was going to give up everything to be with him. What's happening now isn't that she doesn't have feelings for him, she does, very much so even after all these years. She just had to move on, and she's right! She couldn't stop her life because of a decision that, unfortunately, had already been made. So NO, she's not with Matt because she doesn't like Frank, she's with Matt because she moved on, despite being in denial about them. She still will and always will love Frank, since it has been confirmed that he is her nerve and her weak point.
Karen and Frank: a deep dive into their relationship
MCU edition part 1
This is one of the final segments of my Kastle analysis where we jump right into the mcu aspect of it all.
As usual read the previous parts to understand the context better. part 1 part 2 part 3 part 4
Let's begin!
First off I want to preface this by saying that I was looking forward to this part cause well...I love the MCU. And I love when characters who previously weren't allowed to interact with other properties get to finally be apart of the larger shared universe. I'll watch anything that has to do with the continuinity.
With that being said, I think Daredevil: Born Again is....okay? I'm not mind-blown by it and I don't think it's anything groundbreaking. Especially after watching the og show I realized how much better and full fledged every character was compared to BA, which at times feels like it's trying to aura farm more than it's trying to tell an actual story. I guess it doesn't help that I never connected that much to Matt as a character even though I do understand he's a very complex person.
And I know you might think I'm saying this cause I'm an "evil Kastle shipper who didn't get what she wanted in the end" but actually I'll have you know that I watched the majority of Born Again without shipping them at all. Sure, I remember liking the heartbeats scene and I knew it was an existing thing but not having watched any of the previous Netflix's iteration of the characters, that moment just passed away swiftly as an after thought. I got into it after episode 7 of DDBA s2 funnily enough, through a friend whose favorite character is Frank and who liked the ship a lot back in the day.
And I'm glad I got into it cause if I was already excited for Brand New Day on its own (Spidey is my favorite superhero of all time), I'm also glad I get to see Frank again doing things that arent necessarily connected to his family anymore. I'll talk about my hopes regarding BND in the final part of the analysis just for the fun of it, since there's still almost 2 months of waiting.
Now let's really get into the story.
The premise we all need to remember is that Foggy is killed by Bullseye and this is devastating for both Karen and Matt. Personally, I think Foggy's character was actually one of the best parts of the og Daredevil, the glue holding everything together. As I stated previously, I wasn't that emotionally connected to the characters so it's not like his death broke me or something but I do think it wasn't beneficial to the story at all. I know it happens in the comics etc but if we were to follow them accurately, Karen is also killed and I don't think that would be beneficial to the narrative either.
I do think that, unfortunately, this puts Karen and Matt in a situation of more understanding each other, cause no one except themselves can grieve Foggy the way they do (even though I think Karen's grief is severely under developed. Frank could understand what it's like grieving for someone though and I wish they allowed him to be the one listening and comforting Karen for her grief for a change, season 3 do something?)
Essentially it keeps them in a trauma bonding relationship without really understanding if they're meant to be together or not. I could expand on Matt and say that I don't think he's meant to settle down with someone at all, it's just not in his nature. And I can't picture them working in a long future either, especially when they disagree on very pivotal issues. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Frank is meant to settle down either. He was offered the chance to by the woman he loves and refused for his own internal turmoil. At least he regrets it now as he should!
Karen chose you Frank!! YOU!!!! Let that sink in!
I think the bigger question at this point should be can Karen settle down happily after the events of Born Again season 2? I doubt it. Her life can't be normal like it was before. The public now knows she's Daredevil/Matt Murdock's girlfriend which puts her in danger as much as it would being with Frank. So what's the difference at this point? To me, there's none. It's simply a matter of hoping that Frank can get his feelings for her come across once and for all instead of suppressing them all the time, even if it doesn't necessarily mean happy ending. I think they deserve at least a shot and also to be working together again on something cause they work really well. Karen could do the investigating part and he could do the action. I'd watch a 22 episodes series just of this ngl.
The first time we see Frank after again after years (literally) is in episode 4 of DDBA.
We see a very different Frank than the one we left off at the end of The Punisher s2.
Matt comes to him to ask for help since some cops are using his symbol to shoot people. Matt reminds him he could save lives and Frank tells him that he did, but for that right now he's basically living in hiding. Matt provokes him by addressing him as a victim and Frank remarks that he's never used that word once in his life. Frank says he's not hiding, just plotting his next kill and that he doesn't have time for Matt's "hero-shit" (when Karen calls though, that's another story!).
Frank tells him that he didn't actually come to him for help, but for permission, that he has the same guilt in his face he lives with permanently. Then they end up talking about Matt failing at saving Foggy's life and Frank points out how Matt can't even say his name.
I wonder how this conversation would have gone if Karen had been the victim. Frank would have used that axe as soon as he entered the room probably.
It actually ends up being a nice scene where they share a bit of each other's grief. "That's what I do what I do."
Frank understand that Matt feels helpless about Foggy the same he's always felt about not being able to save his family's life. Nevertheless he doesn't approve of Matt's "system" of dealing with things, cause at the end of the day, Foggy's dead and Bullseyes gets to stay alive. I think this is similar to the way Karen and Matt disagree on the topic in BA s2. I think Karen would have sided with Frank too in this specific instance. She's not above killing someone when she's in danger after all.
We see Frank again in episode 9. Matt tells him he's the last person he'd expect to be there.
"What about you? Aftershave and a haircut. That all for me?"
"Yeah. Yeah, I did it for you." Oh Frank...
Gotta be presentable for his girl i respect it!
"I thought this wasn't your fight."
"Yeah, well. I got a phone call that changed my mind."
"Care to be more specific?"
"No, I do not. I made a promise I was gonna get you out of here alive. That's exactly what I'm gonna do."
Can I just say how funny it is that all it takes is one call from Karen and he jumps right into action? When Matt came looking for him he was like hell no gtfo then Karen calls once and he goes yes my queen I'm coming and not only that he even made himself look presentable again he's so funnyyyy this is the same man who rejected Karen on his own volition btw.
It sucks that 10 years have passed between the Netflix shows and the mcu ones cause we have no idea how even Karen was able to contact him in the first place. Did he give her a number at some point? Did he help her in other occasions? Did she have it already saved from previous meetings? Was it a special number reserved for her just in case? Did they ever see each other in those 10 years or did Frank just hide? Cause surely, Matt hasn't been aware of that anyway.
The corrupt cops enter Matt's apartament and they're ambushed by Daredevil and Frank and it's an absolute bloodbath (well from Frank's pov at least). The inside of the apartment ends up exploding but they manage to escape just in time.
And low and behold...Miss Karen Page returns.
What are you making googly eyes for Frank even Matt's clocking your ass and he's blind
They get inside her car and go back to Frank's hideout. Frank is patching himself up while Karen is medicating Matt.
Eyes always on his girl bet he wishes he was getting medicated too even if he denies it!
"What's going on? You called Frank uh?"
"I heard Pointdexter escaped. Called Frank and hopped on a plane."
"You couldn't call me?"
"I needed someone to look out for you."
Would you have answered? Is what I would have made Karen say. Anyway, Matt you don't know the half of it.
He's trying to hear what they're saying and check through the mirror but I just can't prove it.
"You okay over there?"
"Never been better."
"Come on, let me take a look."
"Nah." Frank you absolute fool just say yes! (picture me singing love story as I'm writing this)
And she's still smitten for that man look at her face!!!
"You know something Karen? Nothing in this world a good cup of coffee can't fix."
The long ass pause before speaking again look at this yearning loser (affectionately).
Not that she's any better to be fair.
"You want a cup?"
"Uh, no thank you."
If I was Matt I would have killed myself in front of them ngl
What's funny is that he can hear their heartbeats but he can't see how they're looking at each other which makes everything so much worse fdjkgkdjn and ALSO! he doesn't really know what they went through together. I'm assuming Karen never told him about the events that occurred in the punisher series, or if she did, she might have some omitted some parts.
That big ass sigh and looking like a kicked puppy cause Karen just rejected his offer (serves you right baby I'm sorry). It's really giving a "what am I gonna do now I'm desperate" sigh. The fact that he even tries to appease the situation by also offering Matt some coffee fjkgfdjkgjkdfngjnfdk
I think Karen caught the real meaning behind Frank's conversation very quickly. I guess it's his way to sort of? Make up for lost time? And it adds a nice parallel to their scene at the diner in Daredevil s2 but I actually like the fact the she refused (I think as much as it hurts not seeing them happily together it did make sense in that moment). From a writing stand point one could simply think hey, it's been 10 years (allegedly?) since she last saw him, she accepted the rejection and moved on. Her refusing the cup simply means she's closing that chapter. She doesn't have feelings for him anymore. If it wasn't for the fact that another scene in this same episodes blows that up completely.
Matt reveals to Karen that it was Vanessa who hired Bullseye in order to kill Foggy and you can see in her face how much fury she's suppressing.
As her and Matt are about to leave, she turns to Frank one more time.
"You coming Frank?"
"Got shit to do."
Matt warns him that Fisk is gonna come for him too and Frank says that if he does he's going to put a bullett in his head.
You can already tell Karen isn't believing this fake out, not even for a bit. She knows him too well for that.
"You know what, Frank? I'm not buying it. I don't believe you don't care."
As she's about to exit the door and calls for her.
"Hey Karen. You asked me for a favor. I did it."
You can tell he's trying so hard not to lose his composure but he's so screaming inside sdngjkfsdngk. I think he was trying to tell her hey I don't do favors to just anyone I did it for a reason!
"Yes, you did. Thank you."
When I'm in a yearning competition and these two are my opponents
"Stay safe."
It absolutely kills me that he didn't have the courage to tell her that to her face. Reminds me so much of the "Good luck Frank" scene from s2e11 of The Punisher. They just have an habit of not telling each other everything do they?
You know what also sucks majorly? That is the last official time they've actually seen each other face to face and it's unacceptable. They need to reunite asap or I'm calling Marvel HQ. This isn't over I know it in my heart!
I'm gonna have to split this up again cause I went over the limit of uploading pictures and there's way too many stuff not to use them so bare with me I really thought I was gonna manage to fit everything mcu related in one post I was so delusional lmaooooo! Anyway I'll get started right away I guess you can still enjoy my ramblings about the first part until you get the second. byeeeeee
Karen and Frank: a deep dive into their relationship
MCU edition part 2 + hopes for the future
And truly the last part. Starting from where I left off. I was about to talk about the heartbeats scene.
Previous parts to understand context: part 1 part 2 part 3 part 4 part 5
Karen and Matt are trying to look for some evidences about Foggy's death and he thinks it's the right time to address the elephant in the room.
"So...You talk to Frank a lot?" And what do you know Matty boy
"Sounds like you're jealous."
Technically she just deflects it onto his jealousy but doesn't reply to his question!
"You know, back at his place I heard your heartbeats." And it's not even the first time he does that with Karen when it comes to Frank!
And welp...suddenly Karen isn't laughing anymore, she got BUSTEDDDD.
"God that is really not fair."
I really wish the camera wasn't on Matt when Karen asks "You heard his too?" Cause you can pratically hear the smile forming on Karen's face as she asks that, she was so proud to have that man wrapped around her finger I swear.
"Oh yeah." Matt's so smug about it too what you're chuckling at? Your ex girlfriend being in love with another man?
"It's just adrenaline I'm sure."
And then she asks him if he heard hers when she saw him and he gives her back her exact answer from before: "Adrenaline I'm sure."
If I had an euro everytime Karen Page avoided talking about being in love with Frank Castle to talk about her love for Matt i'd have 2 euros, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it's happened twice.
What does her denial tell us? Well lots of things I think. First, Matt's probably the last person she would be willing to talk to about her feelings for Frank since we're also talking about a man who she loves (and a man she's now trauma bonded too). If Foggy was still alive maybe he would have been more indicated as a confidant. It's not like she really has other close friends to talk about that or anything else really, which is another thing that's lacking for Karen in the mcu show.
Second, I don't think she will ever be over Frank. She might think she is she might even believe she can find happiness with someone else but all it takes is for them to see each other again even for a minute and that sparks reignites once again. And it tells you that that story is far from being over, cause there's still so much left untold. To be honest I'm a huge fan of this trope specifically, they fit it so well and it's part of the reason I resonate with their story so much.
I think this tweet sums it pretty well for me:
Frank is still not in a place for a relationship at this point, he's very much focused on the things he has to get done and we know that in OLK he's still struggling to find his purpose (but we'll get to that). What makes it compelling for me is that Karen is the one thing that constantly makes him doubt he's only ever meant to be the punisher. It's always like...he knows what he's doing, he does it effectively but everytime they cross paths nothing else matters, what matters is protecting her and making sure she's safe. He tries to be cool and collected and dark and broody but beneath all that there's that intense yearning for her. He tries to suppress it all as much as she's also trying to not to let it show to the world that the rejection still stings and those feelings are still there and it's all painful cause he knows seeing her here and there is as good as he's gonna get (unless he starts actively looking for her again which he fucking should!). I think in a sense, he's still her worthy cause.
Back in his hideout, Frank's listening to the cops through the walkie talkie. One of them says "No eyes on Murdock and the blonde, Daredevil and Punisher got away." After the call ends he lets out a big worried sigh, gets up and takes his gun off the table. It's once again time to fuck shit up to protect his girl. "The deal is nobody goes after her." Remeber? I certainly do!
And once again, Karen is indeed his call to action. And it won't be the last time!
The cops end up capturing Frank and asking him to join their forces. Frank refuses. "You think you know my pain? You think you know my losses? How I see the world?"
Karen tells Matt that if he plans on attacking he will either die or kill. I don't know why these last season 1 scenes felt a lot to me like kastle dialogues? Maybe it's a coincidence idk. I don't think it's interesting that despite the ending, Karen and Matt are not gonna see that much eye to eye in the later season.
Anyway, the season ends with Frank escaping from the cage he's kept in and that's about it.
Now, onto season 2.
I wish there was a lot to say about this season but there's actually like 2 crumbs and that's it. Once again, just like Karen's lackluster presence in TP s2 I don't understand why Frank wasn't present in season 2 of Born Again. I've read somewhere that it was due to Jon Bernthal's tight schedule which I guess can't be really helped but with the way things went in the season, it's so unrealistic for me to picture Karen in a situation where she's in costant distress, she's in jail and Frank isn't there to blow everything up and help her any way he can. Not to mention she probably risks her life in general. His absence will probably never be addressed again which is also what sucks.
When she is in prison and she gets told that she can only make one phone call I gotta admit a part of me wished it was Frank and that he would actually show up. Also it would have made such a nice parallel if he was present during her trial, just like she was there for his. I don't know how much realistic can it be for Frank to be sitting in court though so I guess we can sit this one out. But supporting her with secret visits would have been nice to see I guess.
Oh well, at least I guess that way we still have their big reunion to look forward to!
There's two things I want to talk about before I get into the kastle crumbs. First: putting Karen and Matt back together off screen is lazy ass writing. You're trying to sell that this is the most important couple of the show and you can't even give them a build up to get together? Not to mention, they disagree all the time on pivotal things? Cause like...why should Dex stay alive after everything he's done? Probably the most Frank coded thing she's ever done to be honest.
Also the fact that he's been training her in combat almost as if she has to "adapt" to the vigilante life...I'm not sure how I feel about it. I've always perceived Karen as more of the mind to someone else's punch/weapon. Sure she can be ready to act upon some trouble and I love that she gets to have badass scenes in that realm as well, but ultimately she's the one who decrypts the mysteries and gets to the core of things. That's why I enjoyed her so much in both the og DD and in The Punisher.
"What happened to you?" "I grew up" oh Karen...hard times require drastic measures. I think nobody would understand her more than Frank in that sense and that's also why I think they're more compatible overall. And well the foreshadow is actually there from the start.
Season 2 episode 3
"You're turning into Frank."
Another funny thing to me is that they're talking about Frank while her supposed boyfriend is standing there shirtless
"Well, he always said know your enemy cause they're all you've got."
"Yeah, sounds extremely Frank."
"You think he's dead?"
Let's go haunt the narrative with papa
Well it's not really surprising that this is the first of her concerns. Last time she saw him she "called him out", he got in the middle of the fight and hasn't heard from him ever since. I wonder if it is not the first time she has this thought. If maybe she stayed awake hoping Frank would contact her and reassure he's well. Too bad she didn't know he was fighting his own inner demons (and hallucinations of her).
Matt reassures her that there's no way Frank is dead, otherwise Fisk would have hang his corpse down the Brooklyn bridge.
"So what...he's just? All this, he's just...being him."
"Same as always."
"I don't know. He's always been there for me--- for us before, so--" [big ass sigh]
Somebody misses their mannnn
Anyway I think that "for us" wasn't an add on but more so of a cover up. She wanted to specifically talk about how much Frank has always been present for her specifically but had to somehow make it seem like she was including Matt in the equation to allude at the times he helped them both (which were like...2 out of the idk how many he helped Karen alone btw). I don't know it was just funny to me.
"You're saying you want his help?" Yes Matt she loves him for who he is you're gonna have to deal with it at some point.
"Well I mean...he is effective."
"You realize murder is not how we win this right?"
Karen in response makes a good point. They could murder Fisk at the very least who's being doing everything he wants since Foggy was killed. In that way her train of thought aligns a lot more with Frank than Matt's. In s1 he said that if Fisk were to target him, he was going to kill him and call it a day, and I don't think Karen would be opposed to that at all. After all, she tried to kill Bullseye before being stopped by Matt. I think unconsciously some of the things Frank has told her throught their journey together still linger in her. And how could they not?
She knows what it's like to grieve someone.
Now let's jump right into the scene that made me check out the entirety of Kastle you already know what it is: the Karen and Heather confrontation.
Heather has collected pretty much every evidence of Karen's past life to haunt her with it and let her snap. Karen is not short of doing the same back. She starts by telling her how much she's in love with this man who's also completely unaccessible, distant and complicated and how it's also hot. I gotta say when I first heard these words, while knowing they were about Matt, I couldn't help but think that they applied perfectly to Frank as well. I don't know if it was intentional, probably not but still.
Heather keeps going. She mention the murder of her brother and Karen already tenses up a bit.
"Did you feel powerful when you murdered James Wesley? After a life time of being used as a puppet by all these men."
"Daddy."
No reaction.
"Brother."
No reaction.
"Frank Castle---"
"FUCK YOU."
All of the mentioned people share a deep meaning for Karen, but it's Frank that causes her to snap. And Heather? Well she's very pleased to see it.
"Funny. That's where the nerve is."
"Does Matt know?"
The face someone makes cause she just got caught slipping on her weak spot. She's totally like "whoops this wasn't meant to happen, can't let her know that man has a deeper significance for me." The only thing causing her to lose her calm and composure is Frank Castle.
I don't know if it can be interesting for you to know but I'm italian and I decided to watch this scene in my own dub out of curiosity and "the nerve" is translated with the italian expression "il tasto dolente" which could be in a literal way roughly translated to "sore/aching point".
I think that in the nature in Frank and Karen's relationship, aching sounds very appropriate. He is that kind of ache that never stops reminding you that it's there and that can come back at any time. Plus I just love how they keep haunting each other's narratives but I've said this before.
What does Karen do at this point? She deflects once again, talking about how much Matt loves her. For how long my poor girl is gonna suppress her true feelings I wonder.
Well, these are the crumbs from from DDBA season 2. The season ends with Matt in jail, Fisk on vacation out of NY and Karen? Left hoping she can try to have a normal life with Matt even though she's now the notorious girlfriend of one the most famous vigilantes in the city. Which brings me to the initial question: can Karen truly be happy at this point? And most importantly in the light of this being a Kastle biased analysis: is the reason Frank and Karen can't be together even valid anymore? Cause she's right now in the exact same situation she'd be if she was dating Frank. Do I think all of this was done on purpose? Probably not. Do I think there's still a chance for Frank and Karen to explore their feelings? Yes of course.
I gotta say, One Last Kill was a game changer in that perspective. It truly gave me the hope that we haven't seen the last of Kastle. It's such a small scene comprised in a 40 minutes special but it holds so much importance for Frank's psyche that it has me excited for the future.
In One Last Kill, we see Frank in a much worse place than we last saw him. He is in a bad mental place and it seems like he has lost every purpose. He doesn't know what he's meant to do anymore, he doesn't know what he's alive for.
He's trying to kill every last person alive connected to the death of his family and the news narrates that he's succeeding. He's pained by visions of his wife and kids and hallucinations of friendly faces talking to him, like Curtis for example.
The peculiarity of these hallucinations is that they all talk to him but he doesn't talk back nor tries to have contact with them, he's just tormented by them and wishes they would just stop. Even when he tries to talk to Lisa, she disappears before he has the chance to.
Also...he's not in a hideout anymore? He's staying in an apartment complex near Little Sicily.
He goes to visit Lisa's grave and there he has several vision of his kids and Maria. It's important to mention how he sees Maria:
While he is on the streets he hallucinates Curtis once again who tells him that he's got nothing left to do.
When he goes back home, Ma Gnucci is out there waiting for him and she tells him that he has a bounty on his head and every single criminal of the neighborhood is going to come look for him that afternoon to kill him and everyone that gets in the way.
Back in his apartment. He's washing his face when he hears Karen's voice. His voice of reason.
"You scared Frank?"
And there she is, wearing the same hoodie Maria was wearing in the previous vision. The parallel is so obvious that it doesn't even need to be explained. Karen is in all respects taking the "mantle" of Frank's wife. It allows us to see that there is, in fact, another woman in Frank's life who is on the same level of Maria and that's Karen and it's always been her.
Even as a simple hallucination Karen's the one who's trying to get some reaction out of him and she the only one who succeeds in that.
"You're not a victim. You choose it." Remember "I've never called myself a victim in my life?" now he's picturing Karen telling him those things. And I think that it's because probably in his head, if Karen's the one saying them, it means they must be true. "Come home from deployment out the door the next day uh?" This is another thing that Frank has specifically told Karen he was guilty of. It's clear that hearing them from her validate those guilts even more. And to be fair, even though Karen has always been deeply honest with him, it is different from the Karen who usually speaks to him. "Just couldn't wait to get back out there. You chose it. You chose it over them."
For the first time, Frank actually speaks back to one of his hallucinations.
"That's bullshit. I didn't---"
"Frank, that was never your plan. Father? Daddy? Husband? That was a costume. You couldn't wait to get back where it made sense. (could also be an hypothetical follow up post hospital scene tbh) You failed. You fucking failed them. You're a failure! You failed your family and now you're failing the city. Coward!"
I love how she's yelling at him the worst things he's ever heard in his entire life and he's like....Karen...are you here...my baby...with those desperate eyes. And she's the only one whose actual presence he questions. He needed to know. She's also the only one he actually touches.
"Are you here? Karen, are you here? Are you... are you with me?"
To be loved to the point of hallucination
"Yeah Frank, Yeah."
A softer Karen makes now space in his mind, much more similar to the Karen he knows and love.
Karen hugs and comforts him and I wonder how many times has he spent wishing she was actually there and he could actually hug her. It's been YEARS since they've actually hugged each other. The last time they saw each other they didn't even stand close. It must be killing him if he imagines her doing that.
"I'm here. It's okay. It's good. I'm always here." (In his mind for sure)
"But there's still more for you to do."
When she caresses his cheek after pulling away from the hug I feel like he might have started to seriously believe, cause that touch felt real to him, that's why he tries to close the gap.
He was immediately going for the kiss, boy was STARVEDDDD. Who knows how many times he's been dreaming about kissing her. Let's not forget they lost two (2) chances at kissing already (third's time the charm maybe who knows). I also liked that they didn't actually kiss: 1) cause well it's not the real karen 2) it will make their first real kiss much more special and anticipated 3) it could symbolize that he needs to kiss her when he's in an actual state of peace and he knows exactly who is
"What time is it?"
And just like that, the hallucination ends and Frank is left hugging his own body. After this scene, there's no denying that this man is in love with her. It's just how it is.
He realizes it's almost time for the killers to come, puts on "La vie en rose" and gets back to business.
Pointing this out just for funsies
Which could mean nothing! One could argue Frank is also carefree being the Punisher. Sure, but then again, it's Karen who put that in motion without even actually being there.
It's Karen who gives him the strenght to keep going. It's Karen who gives him a reason to believe again he has a purpose. He imagined her like that cause Karen's real version probably wouldn't have been much different anyway. Cause she's been her number 1 supporter since day 1 pretty much.
At the end of the special we pretty much see the Frank that we'll see in Brand New Day. A vigilante shaping up to become an anti-hero who helps people in need.
Which now just leaves me with my hopes for the future.
Well first of all, I definitely want Frank to come back in season 3 of Born Again, I don't care if it's just the last episode of the season or a 5 minute appearance, I'll take what I can get. There is however, an obstacle in being in ddba s3 which is that I don't think something major could ever happen with kastle in a show whose main character is Daredevil, unless of course they set him up with Elektra at the same time. Most importantly I don't want Karen in BA s3 to only revolve around Matt, maybe this time it's up to her to find her purpose after everything that happened in NY and really question if her future with Matt is what she wants or it's just a projection of their shared trauma. Ultimately I think deep down she would give Frank another chance if she was presented with the opportunity.
The best solution would be if they picked up a Punisher show where he dedicates his life to minor, non world endangering threats and Karen is a main recurring character who helps him investigating. It would be nice if it actually had ties to other mcu characters. I want the street style mcu tv shows to still feel like they're apart of the shared universe even if the heroes do their own thing and deal with more ordinary threats.
As we all know by now, Frank will appear in Brand New Day. It's a thing I look forward to and it feels full circle, especially when you think the Punisher actually was created as a Spiderman villain.
I'm not expecting much kastle related content in a such jam packed and intense movie, I'm not even going to dare hoping that Karen might phisically show up, but I do think that Frank having to deal with a situation where Peter wants to protect the woman he loves and who he lost/can't be with for a series of a circumstances is such a missed opportunity if it's not used to make Frank talk about Karen. He doesn't even have to say her name esplicitely he could just simply allude at the fact that just like Peter, he also has someone he can't be with for a series of reasons which include the responsibilities of what they do. The idea of Peter and Mj reuniting giving Frank hope he can see Karen soon is just…chef’s kiss
And Peter being the empath that he is, could even encourage him to at least try to give himself a chance to tell her how he feels. And maybe the movie can end with Frank trying to find a way to contact Karen again. After all, is Karen not aware he's roaming freely through the streets of NY with another red spandex superhero?
I guess only July 31st will tell us that.
And here we are. This long ass meta has finally reaches his conclusion. Let me know if you want maybe to read it in a single encapsuled space I could idk, create a substack account and make a single article so you can all read it better. Or maybe I'll do it anyway who cares! Free will! I'll see what to do once I pass my exams (i've been more proficient on this analysis than at studying). Until next time! Bye and thanks so much for reading! <3
I realize I‘m a *little* late to the party but I need someone to talk to about Season 3 of Daredevil and that Karen episode and how Matt is such an ass towards her for having to abandon his plans for Fisk to come save her while Frank gladly, gratefully puts everything else on hold whenever he smells trouble coming her way every single time, because it means he gets to see her and can go “good to see you, Karen” with those puppy eyes. And how Matt, who can see through lies just by his heightened senses, managed to ignore such integral parts of her personality for years on end, while Frank actually DID see her, and everything she’d been through and carried with her, the freaking second she stepped foot in his hospital room back in Season 2 and (literally and figuratively) was like „Her.“
Karen and Frank: a deep dive into their relationship
The Punisher season 1 edition (part 1)
Read part 1 and part 2 before getting here!
While getting into The Punisher show I think I'm gonna be less detailed about every episode cause I wanna jump straight into the ones Karen is in and provide a bit of context if necessary. So let's goooo
For context: nobody except Karen (and well, Matt) knows that Frank's still alive. He's working undercover at a construction site under a fake name, with long hair and beard. Some stuff happen, there's a guy named Micro who knows he's still alive and is looking for him cause he has answers for him concerning his family. He's still consumed by the guilt from their death,as he dreams and imagines them constantly, even to the point of believing he killed them himself.
In episode 2, Frank goes to a diner. While there he order foods and starts reading a newspaper. The article is written by guess who? Yep, non other than miss Karen Page.
After receiving the call from Micro, Frank is determined to find out who he is.
And here we get our first Karen/Frank interaction since DD. Pretending to be an homeless, Frank asks Karen for some money. When she hands it to him, he thanks her using her name, which startles her. He then reveals himself.
"Still all heart uh?"
She's most definitely happy to see him.
He tells Karen he wanted to say hello and asks if she's still has her gun with her, Karen nods, patting her bag. She's not taking risks anymore, our girl has grown and Frank himself approves!
Karen asks what he's doing there and he says if they can talk. We cut then to Karen's new apartment where she offers him a drink.
"I wasn't sure if you'd still talk to me." "I wasn't either."
I feel like they're both referring to two different things. Frank is referring to the last time they actually spoke when she told him "Kill him and you're dead to me" while Karen is referring in general to the fear he could actually be dead.
Karen then comments his new look "rocking the whole hipster thing" to which Frank replies that he's been entertaining the idea of going full man bun. (This exchange is so funny to me when I think about Born Again, but we'll get to that when the time is due).
Karen asks where has he been, he said he had business to finish. What I love at this point of the story, is that there's a lot of "unfinished business" between them as well. It's not quite romantic yet, but there is an untold or better a story that never felt completely over due to Frank's disappearance and it is a pattern that I think it's currently repeating itself in the born again timeline. Right now the "yearning", even though I don't think we call it that yet, is still on Karen's pov.
Frank reveals that there's someone who knows he's still alive and wondering if she has said anything. Of course Karen reassures him "You know me, I would never tell anyone."
Then Frank asks her for her help. He has a first hand experience at how good she was investigating for his case, and he trusts her completely. Also he doesn't really have anyone else apart from her that could listen. It's Karen who last saw that ounce of humanity left in him, it's Karen who he opened up to the most. It's not hard to imagine that from that moment on Karen becomes a positive constant in Frank's whole existence.
After explaining the situation, Karen asks how he can contact him. He takes out a vase of flowers as a signal for her to put on her window and I think for a brief moment Karen truly thinks it's a sweet gesture for her.
And I do believe it is in a way. I looked up the meaning of white roses cause i was curious and this is what I found:
Maybe it wasn't intentional, but I like to think it's sweet regardless.
As Frank's about to go, Karen jumps into his arms. It's their first hug but it already feels special. Also it lingers. And it lingers a bit too much for too people who should have no romantic implications. I think there's no need for me to say more cause it's a such a powerful scene on its own nothing I can add could make it better than it already is.
"It's really good to see you." "It's really good to see you too."
As he leaves, he tells her to be careful (also a parallel to the "stay safe" in born again, but we'll get to thaaat)
Naturally, Karen starts digging up immediately with Ellison's help and it's very nice that she's the reason the plot starts moving forward.
I just wanna say how it's only episode 2 but it feels so nice seeing Karen fitting in Frank's world. It's like she's just meant to there. I'll touch on this later but she truly is an important part of his story and I cannot imagine anything concerning him where Karen isn't present anymore.
Karen and Frank meet up near the Brooklyn bridge to inform him of what she found about Micro. Karen tells him that she does want to help him, but not at the cost of someone getting killed. Frank argues that the guy came to him not the other way around, that he could have some answers about his family and that if he's not dangerous, he's got nothing to worry about.
Karen has found out Micro's real name but also that he's allegedly dead, shot trying to escape arrest by Homeland Security. She also add that a guy named Carson Wolf got the story shut down, so thats why nobody knows about it.
He admits to her that Micro is scaring him. Karen sarcastically replies "What's he got on you anyway?"
As he thanks her and is about to leave, Karen asks when she'll get to see him again.
Frank, a bit astounded, asks "You want to?"
"It'd mean you're still alive. Believe it or not I actually care what happens to you, which makes precisely one of us." She's never going to stop reprimanding his impulsive tendencies dfkd
"Be careful."
Poor girl doesn't know how many "Please don't die, I care about you, you dumbass" has left in her!
In episode 5 Dinah's looking at pictures of Frank, and one happens to be with Karen during his trial. It foreshadows the fact that they're gonna talk later, but I just like how it's established in-universe that her presence matters.
When Dinah is coming into the room, we can see Karen's extra nervous to talk to her. She probably assumes it might have to be something to do with Frank.
Karen asks about the incident and how no police report has been filed about it. Essentially she's doing her reporter job and trying to get a story on it.
Dinah tells her "You strike me as someone people would tend to trust." Well! Ain't that the truth! If only she knew how much!
Madani asks her to not report anything until the full story is clear. Karen doesn't seem very happy about it but asks about Carson Wolf. Dinah admits that he definitely had dirt on his hands and she suspects she knew that already. She asks Karen who told her and if she has any idea on who killed him. It's pretty clear that Madani thinks Frank is the one who has informed Karen of all these stuff. She doesn't even know them and how deep runs their bond, and yet she stills suspects.
"Would you say you have a tendency to get over-involved, Karen?"
She brings Frank up directly, mentions the trial, and how she was a strong advocate for his cause. It's seems like Karen has a tendency to meet people who figure her out immediately when it comes to Frank on her path. Agent Madani mentions how Karen was kidnapped by Frank and yet she's there, alive and well.
"I had nothing to fear from Frank Castle." It's so refreshing to see how much her trust in him is constantly reiterated.
"if you ask me, the story of Frank Castle is a tragedy and no one comes of that well." I think it's a very nice summary of Frank's entire existence and these words are very true, especially when you think about the entirety of his character. And of course Karen's the only one who could summarize that so well.
It seems so insignificant but it furthermore confirms Karen's importance in his story, in his universe. She's part of what happened, she got to know him on levels better than anyone else and that's one of the most captivating parts of their dynamic to me.
Karen doesn't let herself get intimidated by Madani. "Are we here to talk about an old case and a dead man?"
Dinah mentions Kandahar and Karen asks what really happened on the dock, she replies that she herself was in Kandahar and Frank is the man she needs to talk to, to which Karen replies "Well it's shame he's dead". Madani then asks what kind of man he was.
"Decent. Honest. He had a code and a sense of honor."
I just love how Karen has always kind words for him.
"Frank was a man better left alone, Agent Madani."
I know Karen's technically saying this to get Madani's off Frank's back but I find funny how she legit never left him alone ever since she had the possibility to work on his case. Never, not even once.
Back at Micro's hideout, the hacker tells Frank he's got mail and look at his smile when he reads who is it he's so smitten I can't believe he let himself fumble her
Micro asks "You gonna tell me how Karen Page fits in?" "Nope". It's okay Micro it won't take you long to figure out.
And we're back in front of the Brooklyn Bridge. Seems like it has become their spot to meet up. Karen's anxiously waiting for him and this is them when they see each other:
I'm getting so emotional as I'm writing this stuff cause why are they like this
Karen tells him about her meeting with Madani and how she probably knows he's alive, Frank admits he had to pull her out of a burning car so it was bound to happen. Karen asks if he was responsible for the burning car, he confirms and Karen makes the assumption that Micro might have some answers for him. From the conversation Karen is informed that Micro is also alive. He did something that Frank wasn't capable of doing: keeping his family safe.
Then Frank confesses he's been thinking about his son and about that time he painted a huge marine on the wall and how it symbolized that he wanted to be the one to protect the rest of the family in his absence. Karen looks at him, with tears in her eyes. It always happened when she heard him talk about his family.
"They're better off without me Karen. And me being by their side got them killed." It pains me how much this in the future will always extend to Karen herself. We'll get back to that in the future tho.
Frank tells Karen he needs to find who killed his family and kill them. At this point Karen is so teary that she needs to get some air. And she then gives him one of the most beautiful speeches in kastle's history in my opinion. I'm sorry but I need to write it all down cause it's just too good.
"So when does it end Frank? Because I look at you and my heart breaks because all I can see is just this endless, echoing loneliness."
"I'm not lonely, Karen."
"Bullshit. We are all lonely. I sometimes think that that is all that life is, we're just fighting not to be alone." (And in terms of Frank what he does is also a way to get his mind off his constant grieving and sense of guilt)
"So what do you want Karen? What should I do? Should I let it go?"
"No, but I want there to be an after. For you. Say that these men die, right? You get what you want. They'll paint them as martyrs Frank, is that what you want? You want to turn these scumbags into heroes with no one ever knowing what they really were?"
"What's the alternative? What should I do?"
"You expose them. You talk to Madani or you tell me. I write a story about it, we let the truth hang them."
"These men they decide what the truth is. You don't get to do that."
"I can't go after these men and keep you safe. I can't do both--"
"You don't need to keep me safe."
"What do you mean I don't have to keep you safe? My family's gone because of what I know."
"I cannot le that happen to you. You got that?"
And then we get the iconic cheek kiss (I wonder if its gonna take another 10 years to get one on the lips).
I think this scene is very interesting to see how Frank operates in terms of his protectiveness towards Karen.
He pushes her away for no reason other than the fact that he could never live with the pain of being responsible of her death, too. And along that, live without her as well. Karen's speech sort of took me back to DD season 2 where she begs him not to kill the colonel and offers her help instead. They go back and forth to that pattern several times and yet Karen never gives up. Never gives him up. Always knows the right things to say.
And I'm sure that if Frank was in the right place mentally, if he could make sure Karen never gets hurt, he would choose her a million times. But he's so insecure that Karen won't be happy or protected with him around and it hurts him as much as it hurts her (also it hurts me). For Frank it's better putting the happiness of people he cares about above his. If keeping Karen safe meant never seeing her again, he would do it. Would he succeed? I think OLK answers that pretty well (but again, we'll there!)
And it's just fascinating to me that if it wasn't for Karen he'd probably have no remorse whatsover. But Karen keeps him grounded and reminds him about that small thread of real feelings that is still connected to him.
It's not Kastle related but I do think it's worth pointing it out, when talking to Micro about Maria in episode 6 he says "We were far from perfect but when I remember her all the shitty stuff fade away". I think it's important look at this also with Karen in my mind, cause they also wouldn't be able to have a perfect relationship, not because they're not perfect for each other, I truly see them as soulmates, but because of all that they've been through in ther lives. But it does help us understand that Frank is someone who's willing to put aside the bad aspects to stay committed to the person he loves and I think it's important in this sense.
When the topic shifts to Billy, Franks mentions how he had 2 families: Maria and the kids and his unit. It's no mystery that he's always been committed to both things. He loved his family, he loved being a husband and a father but he also loved being a marine (at times even more than being with his kids according to him). Which makes the fact that later he refers to Karen as his family (and wife eheh) even more special. It's also worth noting how both of the two "families" he references are tied to his past/something that technically doesnt exist anymore. His family is gone and his time in the marine is over. Which makes Karen "his family" in the present. Karen is in fact his only or better most important, tie to the present.
Frank decides to reveal himself to Billy cause he trusts him. By that alone we can tell he's a loyal guy. He has a "code of honor" as Karen would say.
When he meets up with Billy he tells him "The less people knew I was alive, the better." and I wonder if that's part of the reason is nowhere to be seen in BA s2. It also ties to the fact that Karen is afraid he might be dead.
Billy offers Frank the possibility of starting a new life overseas and work with him under a new identity. Frank seems to be seriously considering it. Makes me wonder if he ever thought that this also meant leaving Karen behind. He probably thought his disappearance would have kept her safer too.
Later that night, Frank goes to Sarah's house. They sit down to have a chat and Frank tells her that he likes to be alone and that he hides in it (I wonder if Karen's words made him realize that? Possibly).
"One thing I know is that the only way out is to find something that you care about."
"Have you find something to do that for you?"
"Maybe."
Look, maybe I'm delusional, but I do think he said this with Karen in mind. Maybe not exclusively, but it's definitely something that he considers as worthy to keep going. When you think about it, her vision in the special is also what motivates him to keep going. He does what he does cause he doesn't know how to put an end to it but to know that part of his actions are also motivated by protecting Karen, is nice.
Also Frank doesnt come to the dock which means Billy and Bennet's ambush is a fail.
At the beginning of episode 8 there's a brief mention of the Bulletin and Frank's trying to reassure Micro that what they're dealing with is not going to turn into a story.
Frank goes to Sarah's house to check why the hidden cameras are off and he stops there to drink some wine with her. They end up talking about their dead spouses and Frank tells her that feeling guilty doesn't help her and that she should allow herself to feel what she feels. It's funny to me that he can give this speech to other people but not to himself and frankly, it might be due to the fact that he knows Micro's still alive, but still.
Sarah kisses Frank (must have been awkward for Micro) but he doesn't really kiss back. It might have been both for Micro and the fact that he's not over Maria, obviously.
Also i think it's funny how he got Sarah peonies cause they were Maria's favorite, but got Karen roses. I guess those flowers are just for Karen in his mind. Who knows!
Frank is telling Micro about his first meeting with Maria, from the story it seems that Maria had a bit of an attitude from the start, I guess Frank has a type lol. After Micro tells him about how he met Sarah, he concludes with "When you know, you know" (could apply to Karen to if you really wanted to i guess).
Micro asks Frank if he misses sex (lmao) and i guess that's a topic that I'll touch upon when I get to season 2.
We learn that Frank asked Maria to marry her after 3 months cause she was pregnant with Lisa and that she never to be with anyone else. He says this to Micro to reassure him that he doesn't want his wife. This also established that he's not over Maria.
In episode 9 Karen receives a minatory letter from Lewis which she's reading in her office. Essentially he's threatening the Bulletin, unless Karen helps him (in the same way he helped Frank, at least that's what he seems to allude to).
Karen of course is in disbelief. How could this guy ever think she'd approve of the bombing (and even Frank later says it's something he hates)? Lewis might seem to think that Karen condones murder point-blank and doesn't get the nuance behind her complicated relationship with Frank (how could he to be honest). Karen offers to write an editorial with her name attached to it and Ellison reluctantly agrees.
Back at Micro's hideout, Frank is reading Karen's article about the bombing.
He's already plotting to fuck some shit up.
"Jesus Christ Karen why are you going after him like this?" His protect Karen senses are tingling.
Micro tells him they're about to find out and when he asks why Micro replies: "Your girlfriend is on the radio." Mind you, Micro hasnt even been in the same room with them and he already knows what's up. Also he tells Micro to turn the radio up. Of course he's not missing any chance to listen to his girlfriend!
He's so focused gkjdfgkn. "You're barking up the wrong tree there." (she knows her so well I'm sorry)
Karen asks the senator who's on the radio with her if he's ever been scared of his life and in a situation where a gun and the willingness to use it might be the only difference between living or dying. And Karen knows that well cause it's exactly what she had to with Wesley.
The senator brings up Frank's doing and she immediately goes on defence mode saying that Frank only killed criminals. I guess one could say he has always been her deepest nerve eheh. She also emphazises that he's not a terrorist, unlike the bomber.
While they're on break the bomber calls the radio. When he hears that the bomber is on call, Frank immediately reacts. Lewis asks Karen why did she say those things about him and Karen replies that she despises everything he's done.
The face of a man who's about to fuck shit up.
"Ease up, Karen." He's so worried for her safety it makes me emotional everytime!
Karen points out to the bomber that he killed regular people and that obviously doesn't help his cause.
"Awful things happen to people everyday and they don't murder people because of it."
Lewis ends the call by saying that this war is just the beginning. Frank identifies Lewis by the latin phrase he quoted and urges Micro to find him. He's everything but calm at this point. We as an audience can already tell why but it's Frank himself who tells us directly.
"That piece of shit is going after Karen."
Lewis should be thankful he was out of his reach in that moment cause God knows what Frank would have done to him given his state. He's not Daredevil he's not just gonna punch you and leave you bleeding he was gonna fucking massacre you Lewis, be thankful. I also wanna mention his hands were literally trembling as he was saying this. He was readyyyy to fucking destroy him.
At this point Micro asks the question everybody else probably wants an answer to: "What's the deal with you two?"
I feel like this scene is so good and self-explanatory on its own that it doesn't even need commentary.
"The deal is just nobody goes after her okay? Not on my watch."
"So you wanna go after this guy?"
"You're goddamn right I do."
In that moment, it's screw being fake dead, screw hiding. Karen is in danger? I'm there fuck y'all.
I don't think we need to add any further how protective of Karen he is, he's proven it over and over again but it makes me so giddy to see him spiraling for her I'm sorry (I'm not sorry). I think Micro's curious also cause most of the time they've spent together Frank has only ever talked about Maria so to see him like that for another woman must have confused the hell out of him, but we're thankful he asked cause then we get this:
"What would you do if it was Sarah? If there was a maniac who was coming after her, what would you do?"
"Sarah's my wife, Sarah's my family."
"I'm only gonna say this once, so is Karen. If something happens to her I--- [slams everything across the table]"
I like the fact that he doesn't even need to finish explaining (probably cause also at that point he doesn't even know himself how to shape his true feelings into words and I like that! Their history is complicated and so is him dealing with it, that's part of what's entertaining about Kastle)
He is the definition of screaming, crying throwing up omg. Look at his crazy ass face!
I pray nobody ever thinks of killing Karen off in any future project cause if that happens this guy? He's never gonna have an ounce of humanity left in himself ever again. You rip Karen off him? You're fucking done for life, don't ever think about seeing the sun ever again byeeeeee. But tbh I love that he's absolutely crazy for her. Also this dialogue after what happens in One Last Kill makes the scene ever better (can't wait to get to that).
Anyway I absolutely need to upload more pictures and tumblr's killing me with their 30 images limit, so I'm gonna have to split this in 2 parts once again forgive me. Maybe I can try to comment the rest of s1 and s2 all together so I can then move onto the mcu projects.
As usual if you've arrived here it means you're the true hero! More coming soon I promise. Hope you enjoyed so far it makes me really happy when people read my little ramblings (well not so little maybe). See you next time! 🖤🩵
I just can’t resist the urge to draw kastle in chibi style. They look so incredibly endearing like this! It’s hard to imagine them looking any cuter!
I also can’t help but notice that ‘Never Too Late’ fits their story all too well.
I just saw a rumor about the Spider-Man trailer and saw that there will be interaction between Frank/MJ/Peter. And he will help protect MJ. I'm imagining what Frank might think seeing the interaction between these two. Realistically, I could see them in two ways: seeing them together could remind him of young love, since he met his wife at almost the same age as Peter and MJ, or he could see in the protective vigilante gaze of his beloved, that he would risk everything to protect her, remembering Karen of course, and to think about it, Kastle is kind of in the position of Peter x MJ's relationship and almost similar in the sense of a vigilante giving up being with someone he loves to fulfill his duty. Let's see if we can get crumbs, Kastle.
