Hi, I’m Kate, and I love talking about stories. Behold, the pinned post.
For navigational purposes (especially on mobile), here are some links to pages that list the fandoms I enjoy discussing, fanfic I’ve written, my analyses, and my reviews.
In line with enjoying discussions, I love asks (including ones from different perspectives), so there’s also a page for blog policy which boils down to a longwinded way of me saying that the only stupid questions are mean ones; please don’t be an ass.
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Also! You don’t have permission to take my stuff and post it to other sites. Namely, Reddit. This shouldn’t need to be said but apparently it does. And if you want to use a meta of mine for a YouTube analysis, I’m happy for you to do so--just please cite me; that’s all I ask!
I noticed you have MBTI and Enneagram in your about section and I just had to ask. 😭 How into personality theories are you? Have you looked into Socionics? It's basically MBTI's much more detailed cousin and it's honestly such a rabbit hole. :D
If you're into that kind of thing, do you ever assign personality types to your characters when you're writing fanfic or making OCs? Or try to figure out the MBTI and Enneagram of characters you like in fictions? Or are you more in the "these systems put people into boxes" camp? I know that's a pretty common take too! Or you could just be like, "I'm past the age of taking this stuff seriously." 😭😭😭
Also, while I'm here... are u into astrology too? :D I kind of got the vibe that it's not really your thing.
I really enjoy personality tests and theories, and I enjoy applying them to fiction, be it mine or others. I also think that people are actually much more complex than any test can capture, so it's not a science. It can be, however, a useful tool for capturing aspects of what a person prioritizes and how they interact with the world around them, and it can thus help you understand yourself too. It shouldn't be taken as a prescriptive checklist, but instead as a starting point of understanding.
Astrology I'm just into in terms of fun. I don't believe in it or take it seriously, but I do think it can be fun when it comes to analysis.
Hey, sorry to bother you, but did you ever think about discussing the objective flaws in the writing of HH and HB, or about their creator? I mean, I didn't see you mention any posts about those shows, but you were harsh on TADC in your post about that series, and I'm worried you might be considered a Vivziepop fan who refuses to see any kind of mistake. Besides, it would be healthy to discuss the flaws constructively.
I'm worried you might be considered a Vivziepop fan who refuses to see any kind of mistake.
I mean... by whom? Does it matter?
I'm not a stan of any creator or writer, honestly. I've also never spoken about Grooseworx nor discussed flaws of creators because I don't think it's relevant to the analyses of either of these works. I mean, harsh maybe, but I did also say this about GW:
Ultimately, you can really tell that this is the writer’s first major work they’ve created. She clearly has a ton of talent and I think she’ll make great, thematically consistent works in the future.
Imo, TADC is just not very well done. The last three episodes were a narrative mess. But few peoples’ first works are their masterpieces, so understand this is not me disliking the writers or thinking they are bad writers or bad people. I don’t think that. I think the opposite.
Genuinely, I think it is troubling to assume that liking a work means you stan a creator, or vice versa, that disliking a work means you dislike a creator. I'm very Death of the Author in general.
I do think Hazbin is much better written at the current moment. Does that mean it's flawless? Nope, it's not. I can see that there are aspects that upset people, and some pacing issues. But the full story isn't out yet, and the writing seems to be increasing in strength rather than stumbling as it nears the finish line.
I'm pretty able to critique flaws and do so openly for the vast majority of works I like. See my critiques of RWBY's pacing, SnK's pacing and real-world allusion to the Holocaust that was offensive, etc. My critiques of Tokyo Ghoul got me in essence exiled from the fandom, lol. I even critique my favorite novel of all time--Dostoyevsky's Demons--and have done so frequently here. Trust me, I'll have things to say about HH. Eventually.
Hazbin's flaws currently are minimal as they pertain to the story itself--they don't impede the themes or character arcs at the moment (again, we're 2/5 through, there's a lot of room left!). I didn't even start critiquing TADC until the end so like. I'm not sure where this comes from.
If people want to ignore my love of critique for a narrative that I'm just a glazer because I say HH is as things currently stand, better written than TADC on the whole, then let them be wrong, because they are wrong. Plus that's just cherry-picking lol. I can defend my opinions on the quality of the writing, but even me saying that is NOT me in any way making a comparison or a commentary on Grooseworx vs Vivzie in terms of talent or anything about them as humans. I know very little about both of them, actually, and I kinda prefer to keep it that way. I'm not really interested in them as people; I wish them the best as human beings. I am interested in their works, but I'm also a lover of critique, so critique is gonna happen. But as things stand right now, I don't have a lot of critique for HH when it's not even halfway through yet. We'll see.
hi! have you read six of crows ? what do you think of inej and kaz relationship ? also a third book has been released!
I have. I liked it! I think the Six of Crows series is in general far more mature and artistic than the original Grishaverse. I don't have a TON to say about it, though. I did really like Kanej; it was my favorite ship from the series.
If you're interested in the actual history of American independence but hate tacky nationalism that glazes over the complexities and very real human rights issues, and also happen to really like MM romance, then I must take this opportunity to promote my sister's series, for which I am the editor.
Is it tacky to promo this on the 4th? Maybe. Do I care? Not really.
Stubborn Things follows an omega gentleman trying to become a lawyer despite society questioning if such a career is really wise for an omega. When he mistakenly accuses an illiterate alpha British soldier of robbery, they start an unlikely friendship that leads to romance... only for political tensions to boil over and threaten to tear them apart. Suddenly the omega's greatest challenge isn't just proving his capability as a lawyer, but saving his lover's life.
We Are Not Strangers follows a British grenadier hiding his omega identity and an alpha Patriot. When the omega is wounded at the Battle of Lexington and Concord, the alpha cares for his wounds. Then the omega goes into heat and manages to return to his regiment... unaware that he's carrying the alpha's child, until the Battle of Bunker Hill reunites them as enemies.
And more to come, because learning history is always better when you learn with a gay romance and occasionally an mpreg subplot.
Hey Hamliet! Today I randomly ended up rewatching Arya scenes from Game of Thrones. One scene got stuck in my head again. I tend to overthink these things a lot. I guess I’m venting to you. I also have a question. But since this is more of a vent, you don’t really have to respond :D
I’m going to comment on the scene: “A girl is finally No One— a girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell.”
MAN WTF!!!? What were the writers even trying to do here? Honestly, we don’t even really see this fully reflected in Arya’s character all the way to the end of the series. This scene in Season 6 directly contradicts her entire character through Seasons 7 and 8. It feels like a major cognitive dissonance. It’s like the show simultaneously wanted two things: to create an emotional impact when the Stark family finally reunites, and to produce “cool assassin moments” that could go viral. But by prioritizing “badass” moments over psychological consistency, the writers unintentionally stripped Arya of the humanity they supposedly gave her back in Season 6.
To be honest, I understand what they were trying to do. In the end, Arya does embrace being Arya Stark of Winterfell again. BUT this is never properly developed in the show and it’s handled so POORLY that it becomes a domino effect that affects everything else. Because Arya’s actions are never really questioned, while the show fully engaging with the themes of revenge and loss of humanity, other characters are constantly punished for their actions. Arya claims she is a Stark, yet when she returns to Westeros, she behaves like a “No One” toward almost everyone. So what was even the point of that Season 6 scene? and If you’re going to use the Faceless Men’s tools again for MASS killings, where does this identity conflict even serve the story?
Everyone is fine with Arya threatening people and literally turning people into pies while they’re still alive, but then why does Daenerys suddenly become the main target of everyone’s moral judgment?
The story of a traumatized child struggling to reintegrate into society, dealing with stress, disconnection from people, and the weight of trying to regain her identity is NEVER properly explored. And that’s actually a story arc I really love. Especially because writers often avoid placing female characters in fully angry, vengeful, daring roles, or they confine them within a strict moral framework. I really like stories that challenge that framework but still bring the character back to a sense of humanity and balance. But interestingly, instead of finding that balance where the character regains their humanity, these types of characters today are often just left as “badass” figures with no depth. I guess I’m just grumpy and things like this annoy me :D Anyway…
Overall, what is the show trying to say through Arya’s arc? And could you recommend a story with a female main character about finding humanity again? (Besides Violet Evergarden, I don’t know any others)
Hello!
Arya's arc was actually awful in the show. She was completely exempt from consequences that applied to everyone else for a lot more seasons than everyone else, and the inability to utilize her was baffling. To quote a reviewer (I can't recall the review), you have Batman on your side, why not use her to assassinate Cersei and/or her supporters like Euron and take the throne? Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Like everything in that show.
I really don't think the show was trying to say anything substantial through her arc. I do think the books are clearly going to call Arya back to her humanity, so the show echoed that to a degree... but in a terrible way that made it a parody of what it could have been.
That's an arc I love too, and would love to see more of as well. But I can recommend Buffy the Vampire Slayer's Willow and Faith for this arc--Willow's arc in particular is six seasons of building to a point, and then the final season is fully about her reconnecting to her humanity without needing to give up her power. I guess they aren't main characters, but they are lead characters in the show with complex arcs throughout the story since it's an ensemble cast.
Another character who embodies this is Ciri from The Witcher (the books far more so than the show). Would highly recommend the books as well.
The Hellaverse uses several motifs linked to entertainment to comment on the world and the characters. In this context, Hell is the Greatest Show in all of Creation and its hierarchy is built on Circus Acts (The Sins) and Arts (The Overlords). Our three protagonists (Charlie, Vaggi and Angel) allude instead to the three arts that together make musical theatre (singing, dancing and acting).
What about Heaven? It's still too soon to say, but I have some ideas. Basically, if Hell is a circus, then Heaven may be a choir.
CHOIRS: HIERARCHY, ARCHITECTURE AND MUSIC
The metaphor of a "choir" would fit Heaven in three ways:
Hierarchy
Architecture (loosely)
Music
Hierarchy
Heaven is traditionally defined by its hierarchy, which works by dividing angels into "Angelic Choirs". This is true both in theology and in works like Dante's Paradiso, which is one of the inspirations for the Hellaverse. The series itself often portrays Heaven's rigid organization by indirectly referencing religious art, that represents angels divided into choirs:
Let's juxtapose Heaven's courtroom with The Assumption of the Virgin by Francesco Botticini (1475–77). Both show the angels organized in three hierarchies with Sera and Emily/Jesus and Mary at the very top.
Architecture
A "choir" is the area of a church where the clergy and the liturgical singers sit.
Now, I don't wanna say Heaven's public buildings are strictly modeled after choirs. That said, they clearly take inspiration from churches and cathedrals:
In short, the rooms where Heaven's political life happens look loosely like giant choirs. They are places where "all the singers of Heaven" meet and speak about things.
Music
The metaphor of the "choir" to describe Heaven is held together by its musical meaning. On the one hand the choirs of angels sing and dance together to celebrate God (religious hierarchy). On the other hand the people on Earth praise the lord with religious chants in church choirs (architecture). As a result, Heaven is a giant choir, who praises God and lives together in choir-looking buildings :P
Still, what about Heaven's sound? Is there any indication that "choral music" fits our angelic characters? First of all there is a little staff artwork:
This artwork was done to celebrate Christmas and depicts Sera, Abel, St Peter and Emily as "carolers". Carolers are typically a group of singers that go from door to door to sing Christmas's Carols. These songs are often choral ones.
Secondly, the songs we have up until now may offer something more.
ANGELIC CHOIRS
It's not a strict rule, but so far many of the angels' songs make use of "epic choirs" (I think you can call them so).
Hell Is Forever:
Adam: Fair is fair, an eye for an eye!
And when all's said and done (Said and done)
There's the question of fun (Ah-ah)
And for those of us with Divine Ordainment
Extermination is entertainment!
Just before the climax of Hell Is Forever, you can hear a choir repeating "sad and done" and adding more fabric by doing some vocalizations.
Gravity:
Lute: Storm's comin', I can see the clouds
(Sanctus Dominus)
Gravity uses Gregorian chants to comment on Lute's lyrics with latin words like "dominus", "ignis", "vindictus", "sanctus" and "gravitas". They tie Lute's religious fanaticism with Adam's rock music.
When I think About The Future (Sera's part):
Sera: I tried to buy us time, but could I have done more
To quell the drums of war?
And I try to still my heartbeat
For the breaking of the dawn (Breaking of the dawn)
And pray the coming day's not our last one
Sera's section in When I Think About The Future has an epic choir singing some generic vocals and opening up to words on the lyrics "breaking of the dawn".
Moreover, Emily's most important song so far is a literal choir:
Charlie, Emily, and Husk: Raise your voice
Light the fire
'Til our hopes and fears reach a billion ears
Charlie, Emily, Husk, and Niffty: Lend your breath
Join the choir
Let the music span o'er this broken land
Charlie, Emily, Husk, Niffty, and Vaggie: And many years from now if any live to hear this song
Charlie, Emily, Husk, Niffty, Vaggie, Angel Dust, Cherri Bomb, and Baxter: A story about how all Hell joined hands and sang along
It begins with just one note
A crescendo 'til the end no matter
What it takes to stay afloat
Hear my hope
In short, one could argue that "choirs" are a recurring motif in angels' songs. This ain't that surprising, as Heaven songs take inspiration from religious music, which makes abundant use of this style of singing. That said, for the sake of over-analyzing things and because it's fun :P let's try and go a little deeper on what Heaven being a "giant choir" may mean.
A "choir" is a group of people singing together, which leads us to both Heaven's best and worst traits:
Heaven is a peaceful society where everyone works together for the "greater good"
Heaven is a society which deals poorly with dissonant voices and people thinking differently
VOX POPULI, VOX DEI
The power of a "choir" is that it brings together many people. It unifies different voices into one melody, so that they can all sing in "perfect harmony". This is the kind of strength "Hear My Hope" shows us. The citizens of Hell come together and save their city, rescue Lucifer and "reach" Heaven (God). Their prayer is stronger than Vox's cannon and their combined powers surpass Lucifer's ("almost a god"). Together they truly are as powerful as a god. Vox populi, vox Dei, indeed.
Hear My Hope is symbolically a piece of Heaven brought into Hell. It is a prayer "all of Hell sings together". It is a moment of integration between the two Kingdoms that Emily makes possible thanks to her song. Speaking of which, it is meaningful Emily is so far the only angel who sings with a choir made of true people, rather than with voices in her head. That is because she is "The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven", so she turns Heaven's ideals into reality.
A LONELY VOICE
The problem of a "choir" is that it may not uplift dissonant voices. As a result, "original thinkers", "weirdos" and "anti-conformists" may not find a way to express themselves in the giant choir that Heaven is.
We have seen this happen to two characters already.
A wacky dreamer that wanted everyone to freely sing.
A kind soldier that could not bring herself to kill a child.
Lucifer and Vaggi are examples of what Heaven does to people whose voices do not conform to its sound. They are silenced and expelled from the choir.
GROUP VS INDIVIDUAL
Heaven as a Kingdom prioritizes the well-being of society over individuals. This makes for a pretty stable and peaceful place, where everyone can live comfortably. That said, very few people are actually happy because they are all repressing parts of themselves. After all, they are in Heaven, so they should be happy, right? These unsolved feelings and emotions are definitely just them imagining things! In psychological terms, Heaven represents the super-ego or the persona.
Hell is instead Heaven's opposite, as it is a Kingdom, where individualism is pervasive to every aspect of life. Sinners live in a society, where they are forced to look out for themselves, so they are extremely selfish and self-centered. However, it is also a place, where everyone expresses themselves pretty freely and there are many different sounds mixing together. It is the Greatest Show, after all! In psychological terms, Hell represents the id or the shadow.
This difference may also come out in how "Hell songs" deal with choirs. It is probably not intended and I am definitely not expecting for it to be a rigid rule, but so far whenever there is a choir in Hell, it's almost always sung by other characters, almost never by random voices. (Of course I could be missing something, 'cause this damn choirs are difficult to hear sometimes and I am definitely not a musical person).
Here comes some examples.
In Happy Day In Hell random Sinners play the role of Charlie's personal choir. In its final reprise Charlie's loved ones sing together.
In Stayed Gone and Hell's Greatest Dad Vox and Lucifer have their copies sing together.
In Ready For This the Cannibals are the choir.
In Trust Us brainwashed VoxTek's employees sing the "lalala" of the chorus.
In Vox Populi and (probably) Vox Dei, the dancers first and then the Sinners sing together.
In Love In A Bottle, the Huskettes sing the chorus.
Really, the only exception so far is Brighter:
Symbolically, the people repeating "brighter!" are Vox's adoring subjects. However, they are not present and it is really Vox's imagination projecting their voices into the song. However, this fits as here Vox is singing about becoming God, so this song has some religious inspiration. Moreover, you still know who is supposed to be singing and why.
All in all, this may not be important, but it is a fun and interesting detail to notice!
Going back to Heaven, this Kingdom likes voices that do not speak out of turn. That said, here too there are individual voices and different sounds. "Storyteller" gives us a quick overview of Heaven's different melodies aka of its three major philosophies.
Sera's Confession is Heaven's "true" music; it is what Heaven should strive to be. It is a beautiful introspective ballad, where the Speaker of God's point of view is presented as coherent with Charlie's ideals, but deeper.
However, Like You and Gravity show us two different musical styles that convey less than ideal perspectives. Let's go deeper.
ST. PETER AND EMILY = BUBBLEGUM POP
Welcome To Heaven and Like You are bubblegum pop songs in the generic sense they are catchy and upbeat, but not very deep. They are like bubblegum. You chew them and spit them out 'cause they lack "nutrients". They are used to convey Heaven's "shallowness". After all, the majority of Heaven is not malicious, but it is simply oblivious to Hell's struggles. Welcome to Heaven and Like You highlight this superficiality:
St Peter: Welcome to Heaven, oh-oh
Check out our sick décor
The spirits leaven, oh!
Please keep your brimstone off the floor
We've got the best and brightest
The politest of the lot
And everyone is hot!
Emily: You're gonna make so many new friends here
Potential amigos around every corner
No bullies or bums, the chums are tens here!
They are built on the joke that Heaven is a place where you can "forever be chill" and that is presented as the pinnacle of happiness. It is the kind of song "the cool kids" would sing in a high school setting :''') St Peter and Emily are a part of this metaphor themselves.
St Peter is a joke on the idea of "gatekeeping" in the sense of deciding who is worthy of something. It is literally his job and he is hilariously obsessed with it:
In the picture above, Emily, Abel and St. Peter's favorite games comment their characters. Emily loves pangolins, so her game is "Party Pangolin", Abel is playing a musical game and St. Peter is playing a game called "Doors" :''') It seems it is about "opening doors" LOL. St. Peter is very proud of his job.
Emily describes the people in Heaven as the cool clique:
Emily: It'll be a breezy piece of cake to form your
Brand new squad, crew, or clique
If you want some buddies
You'll have your pick
'Cause no one here is like you
Not one remotely like you
You've got mystique
You're strange and unique
Other than this, our Seraphim's bubblegum pop style is interesting for two reasons.
1- This musical style ties with Emily's bubble motif. Emily's character is linked to "bubbles" in multiple ways:
Her powers are water and especially bubble-based, as she is "holy water" to Charlie's "hellfire"
She has a bubbling personality
She is "the girl in the bubble" in the sense she is sheltered
So, Emily singing bubblegum pop is a way to comment on both her chirpy personality and her being brought up in a happy bubble.
2- Even if it is probably not wanted, this musical style creates a loose juxtaposition with Vox, which works for the characters' different roles in season 2. There Vox represents the anti-theme, as he brings war and silences everyone to impose his voice. Emily instead represents the theme, as she brings peace and unites everyone into a choir. So, it is fun that both characters are:
A- Linked to water:
B- Sing electronic music in different ways:
Vox's electronic sounds represent his true self, who is delusional and obsessed with becoming God; this kind of music is in juxtaposition with Vox's usual Broadway-style singing where he puts on a pleasant mask.
Welcome to Heaven and especially Like You are electro-pop and they represent Emily's most naive and shallow self. She is deep down much more, but in these songs she projects outside an idea of superficiality.
OLD TESTAMENT HARD ROCK
Rock is obviously the most interesting musical genre associated to Heaven. Several angels have rock songs, especially when they are expressing an ideology close to that of the Old Testament.
Adam- Hell Is Forever
The First Man's solo number is clearly modeled after a rock-concert, with electric guitar solos and cheering groupies.
Adam: Did I hear you imply
That they don't deserve death?
Are they Winners?
Are they Sinners?
'Cause it's cut and dry
Charlie: Well, actually, if you take a look—
Adam: Fair is fair, an eye for an eye!
Lute - Gravity
Adam's Lieutenant sings her powerful song, while surrounded by rock props, like guitars and records.
Lute: Eye for an eye says you owe me a debt!
Blood demands blood, gonna get my hands wet!
Lute and Adam: The flood's comin', now you can bet on tragedy
Like gravity!
Lucifer - The Motherfucking King of Hell
The King of Hell opens Vox Populi with a rock song he sings on a big stage and with fire effects worth of the greatest rock-star.
Lucifer: Sinnerman, you're getting way too big for your screen
Now I'm here to drop your punishment
It's gonna be mean
Just in case y'all had forgotten
Who's the motherfuckin' King of Hell!
'Cause I'm the serpent!
I'm the flame
The mortal world is scared to say my name
I am so spooky! I'm the shit!
I am a living aspect of the infinite!
This choice is a twist on the idea that "rock is the devil's music". Hazbin takes this old saying and twists it in two ways:
It jokes about it, by making it a recurring musical genre for angels
It uses this musical genre as one associated with the series's anti-theme
In general, Heaven has two major points of view that are bound to clash with each other:
The Gospel (Speaker + Emily) and the "turn the other cheek" (Emily loses a wing in Hell to help the Sinners who attacked her)
The Old Testament (Adam + Lute) and the "eye for an eye" (Lute takes her own arm in Hell 'cause she can't accept Vaggi would disown Adam's teachings)
These two philosophies represent two opposite sides of Heaven and they fight to expand their influence on this Kingdom.
So, "Old Testament Hard Rock" is indeed the music of the Devil, but the devil here is represented by Adam:
In Lute's mind appears now as even more demonic, since he is missing his halo. He is also clearly acting as the "devil" on Lute's shoulder. Let me also highlight that both Gravity and The Motherfucking King of Hell are extension of Adam's philosophy thematically. On the other hand Lute is singing about Adam's teachings. On the other hand instead Lucifer is making an Adam's impression, even if unconsciously.
ADAM = ROCK IDOL
Rock is the First Man's music, which works on three levels.
1- It is a play with angels' celestial motif. Angels are "heavenly bodies" and stars. So, our First Man is a rock-star :P
2- Adam is a musical idol, just like he is a religious idol aka a fake god:
Adam: No... you don't get to end this! I'm fucking Adam! I'm the fucking man, and you're just some fucking clown or something! I started everything on Earth! All of mankind came from these fucking nuts! You all should be worshipping me, you ungrateful, disgusting, fucking losers-!
This makes Adam a satanic archetype, as well. After all, the Devil's sin is that he wants to be God.
3- Adam is a twist on Dewey Finn in "School Of Rock". In particular, the point is that Adam's rock music is the opposite of what "rock" should stand for. Rock music should be about freedom, individuality and community. Adam instead takes the genre and uses it to force his point of view, turns its aesthetic into a military uniform and makes himself a cult leader.
ABEL = ROCK BAND
Abel's entertainment motif is interesting because it combines two very different inspirations:
He sings in a rock-style (of course, given the VA is Patrick Stump)
He wears a brass band outfit, which links him to this genre visually
These two motifs work on multiple levels.
1- On a very basic level, they frame Abel as different from Adam. Sure, he has a rock sound too, but he is also way more nerdy (brass band) and feminine (the pink details in his outfit). This is in juxtaposition to Adam being a hypermasculine jock.
2- Abel may be a synthesis of his parents. On the one hand he inherited the rock sound from Adam. On the other hand he may have inherited the brass band motif/musical theatre motif from his mom. That would be perfect especially if Rosie turned out to be Eve. After all, Cannibal Town is a huge celebration of classical musical theatre and Charlie uses Rosie's staff to lead the Cannibals' parade in 1x7. Finally, Rosie is inspired by Dolly of "Hello, Dolly!", whose most famous musical number is "Before The Parade Passes By".
3- Both the rock motif and the brass band inspiration tie with Abel's newfound role of Leader of the Exorcists. On the one hand the rock music gives him continuity with Adam. On the other hand "leading a marching band" can be seen as a military role in the Hellaverse's musical world. For example, Charlie speaks of herself as "the general who is leading the parade" in Ready For This, as she is stepping up as a leader.
4- The rock and band motives may hint at Abel giving its own personal spin to Heaven's rock music. If Adam twists rock into an individualistic genre that celebrates violence (he is a rock-star), Abel may bring rock back to its original meaning of freedom and community (he is part of a rock-band). In other words, Abel may embody the theme of the musical movie "School of Rock" that his dad lost mid-way during his life.
Interestingly, many of these elements may tie into Abel and Charlie's foiling:
Both combine their parents' motifs (rock + brass band for Abel and circus + singing for Charlie) as a way to symbolize their difficult legacies.
Both are asked to step up as military leaders (leading a marching band), despite hating violence.
Both may be key into finding again the true meaning behind their fathers' respective musical inspirations. So, Abel may be more of a positive "Dewey Finn" than his dad, while Charlie may remind "The Greatest Showman that lost his dreams" of his past drive.
This is unrelated, but it's possible both Abel and Charlie share a lamb/sheep motif in juxtaposition to Adam and Lucifer's goat motif. It is just an idea for now, but my guess is that this animal motif may have different meanings for the two parent/kids duos.
LUTE = MUSICAL INSTRUMENT
Lute's entertainment motif is unique because she is not linked to an art, a musical genre or a musical movie. Rather she si a musical instrument: the lute (which is typically associated to angels).
This choice clearly emphasizes the exorcists's poor position in "Heaven's Choir". They don't sing, but are played. They are not full fledged people, but are reduced to objects (a lute, a walking vagina, etc.).
When it comes to Lute specifically, she is associated to musical props used to emphasize Adam's voice and message.
She is a "lute", which in Adam's rock music genre becomes an electric guitar:
In 2x2 Lute destroying the guitar symbolizes how much she is hurting herself by being unable to cope healthily with her situation.
She is a broken record, that can only repeat Adam's ideas:
In 2x2 Lute breaks records as she sings Adam's motto "Eye for an eye says you owe me a debt". This shows how Lute herself is a broken record. Let's notice how in the picture above the record is already cracked, even before Lute destroys it. So, yeah. It is a "broken record", which is bound to repeat the same melody over and over.
So, Lute isn't an artist, but an object for others to use. Or at least this is what she has been taught. I am expecting that after her spiral will lead her to rock bottom (probably season 4), she will start to discover her true voice. This will most likely happen thanks to:
Abel, who wants to take care of one of his dad's guitars :P:
Abel: Hey, Miss Lute. Can I call you that? Sorry to, uh, interrupt your, uh, freaky in the dark time. I was hoping to maybe get one of my dad's old guitars, you know? To remember him by.
Vaggi, who is set up to fight Lute again and probably to show her what the second in command of the Exorcists has been missing. Who knows, maybe she can give Lute a dance lesson as @misstrashchan suggested :P
I don’t know if your watching House of The Dragon, one of the things that I’ve noticed is there seems to be a double standard for how moral complex the female characters are allowed to be compared to their male counterparts
I haven't started season 3 because season 2 went in all the wrong directions. It's like they took all the wrong lessons from GoT's bastardization of Dany's character and thought they could only give us well-meaning ladies instead of, well, complex characters.
something came to mind after finishing The Amazing Digital Circus. What do you think about creators explaining story elements on social media or sharing a lot of extra trivia about their work? I’ve noticed Gooseworx does this a lot, they seem to enjoy talking about the series and sometimes explain things that aren’t really addressed much in the show itself. Sometimes it feels like that kind of breaks the work’s integrity or makes it feel less self-contained. I remember GRRM also talked a lot about his work, but in his case it felt more like extra details, comparisons, or random lore discussions. But even he has made some rather daring comments at times, especially in comparisons, that arguably ended up hurting the audience’s perception of his own work, idk.
I don't mind it in principle, but specifically I don't mind extraneous lore or details. I think it's headcanon that people don't have to take super seriously.
If it recontextualizes something from the work but wasn't actually suggested or supported in the work itself, I think it should have been in the work itself, and if it wasn't, well. It's not canon.
(I also think a lot of writers are actually very bad at explaining their works.)
Hey, have you watched the latest TADC episode on YouTube yet? And if so, what did you think of it?
Hi!
Yes, I did and my thoughts are very similar to @hamliet's in this post. I will try to answer you, but I will warn you I may just rewrite her points with different words :''') Sorry, if it is repetitive. Also, if you liked the finale, I think that is totally valid and you should have fun.
THE STORY'S MESSAGE
I think what the story does the best is to offer a simple, but resonating commentary on online life. The finale loosely works if you use this lens to interpret it.
People are more than their digital identity and should really disconnect and leave their lives to the fullest among other people. Hence, Jax dies in the circus, but gets to live as her real self in the human world.
In general, the series is built on the dichotomy real/fake. This juxtaposition is used in the social commentary about online life above. It is also meant to tie into the main existential theme of the story, which is to accept your real self.
Jax can't accept her real self, so she dies. Caine instead accepts he is just Caine and a person, lets go of Abel (the "artificial" part of himself) and gets to rejoin the circus and to become friends with everyone. Pomni even emphasizes this in the finale, when she realizes her experiences in the circus changed her to the point she is now a different person from Abigail.
This is more or less what the story wanted to convey. In itself, there is nothing wrong, but I don't think it was well done at all. Before becoming more critical, I will say I agree with what hamliet said about the author having tons of talent. I am sure she will make much better and beautiful stories with great ideas in the future. That said, I think tadc as a series has the quality of a first draft that probably needed to be rewritten and edited 2 or 3 times before it can fully work (which is very common when writing; your first draft ain't never gonna be the final product).
Anyway, I am going to point out two major writing flaw and then I will dive into what I personally did not like.
A PLOT AND B PLOT
Long story short, the series does not make clear which is the A plot and which is the B plot.
Is the A plot the characters' conflict with Caine or is it Jax's inner conflict?
Because of the premise, it should be the Caine's plotline. However, the story the author clearly wants to tell the most is the Jax's one. The two stories do not really talk with each other if not for a very basic foiling between Caine and Jax (that is very generic and does not really work that well). By this I mean:
Nothing that Caine does has any effect on Jax's inner spiral. Jax was about to abstract in episode 7 and she abstracts in episode 9 for the same issues. She does not have a tragic spiral throughout the story, where we progressively see her become worse. She could have abstracted in any moment and she simply does in the finale.
Nothing that Jax does has any impact on the Caine's plotline. The one that takes the initiative there is Pomni and Kinger does have a role because of his background. Jax does nothing, which is something that does not work if she is supposed to be the main character aka the character at the center of the conflict
The result of this mess is that the final episode is basically a sandwich with beginning and end being about the Caine and the circus's plotline and the middle being about Jax's story. The end result does not really work because it is like meshing together two different stories.
WEAK CHARACTERS
Tadc sets itself up as a character driven story, even a character study, but... the majority of the characters lack a character arc and the arcs we do get are very generic. Have you noticed the majority of the characters either lacks a goal or a flaw? These are the two basic elements to structure a character arc.
Instead we have:
Jax- she lacks a concrete goal to strive for. What does Jax want? To befriend Pomni? To live? To die? We don't know because she never does anything to reach a concrete goal. This in itself is a disservice to her character, which is potentially very complex and interesting. Characters need to be active, even when they are passive people (in this case the plot will force them to react and to become active). It is only by seeing them pursue an objective, that we get to discover which kind of people they are. Jax has flaws, but overall, it is not clear what she wants. As a consequence, her arc is not structured in a way that can support a whole story. It is relegated to be a psychological character exploration in the finale, which I didn't hate and I thought it was well done for the most part! However, it is appropriate for a one shot, not for a series of 9 episodes. If you have such a format and Jax is to be the main character, her arcs needs to be structured properly, to impact other characters and to be impacted by other characters. You don't need an overly complicated thriller-like plot, but something has to happen for her to have an escalation and to maker her abstraction more powerful. (if you want an example of a well written tragic spiral that ties into the story and is written more or less with the same screentime Jax has, just consider Sayaka in Madoka; the two characters also meet similar fates since "abstraction" and "becoming a witch" are similar concepts)
Pomni - she has an objective, but she lacks flaws. Her objective is to help everyone and specifically to help Jax. However 1- she fails her objective and this has zero impact on her, which weakens her character and 2- she lacks an inner flaw, which makes her not a particularly deep character. Tbf you can have a character struggle more with external antagonistic forces, rather than internal ones. However, this solution fits action movies or thrillers and not a character driven story. In character driven stories the characters' interiority is key. Pomni lacks one. Why is she so focused on saving everyone? What motivates her? What are her struggles?
Ragatha - she has a goal (to befriend Pomni), but no real antagonistic forces that get in her way. She and Pomni are basically friends since episode 3, Ragatha is a little bit unsure about their relationship initially, but there is no escalation of the conflict, so she finds herself without an arc and a function within the story. I love her, she is probably my favorite and I loved seeing her happy in the finale. Still, is she really a useful character in the story? 'Cause she could be easily cut and very little would change.
Gangle - she has a well done one episode arc, where she has both a goal (to run a fast-food restaurant) and a flaw (she forces herself to be happy). She works, but hers is a pretty simple one-episode arc. Overall, Fizzarolli in Mammon's Magnificent Musical who has a similar one-episode arc is a richer character imo with more or less the same screen-time.
Kinger - He does not have a goal nor flaws. In general, he is not set up to have an arc. That said, he does have a function (he is a mentor) and he fulfills it well.
Zooble - They don't have a goal nor a fleshed out flaw. They are not set up to have an arc. You could argue they have a function in Gangle's story, but Gangle herself is not overly important except for her focus episode.
Caine - He has a goal and a flaw, which makes him the best written character technically (together with Jax, who lacks structure, but has more depth). However, I would argue both his spiral in episode 8 and his redemption in episode 9 were a little bit too quick and I found them a little generic. I love Caine (he is my fave together with Rags) and I am happy he got his happy ending, which also works thematically. Still, I think we could have gone deeper with him.
All in all, the characters have interesting ideas behind them, but these ideas are no structured in arcs that work well together and in the same story. I know the author was inspired by IHNMAIMS, which I have not read, hence I can not comment on it. That said, when I think at tadc premise, I can't help, but remember "Breakfast Club". 'Cause in the end tadc is really just Breakfast Club, but online and I think it would have been super cool to explore this premise more. To have a bunch of colorful avatars discover the people behind the cartoonish bodies would have been super interesting to see. I think it would have also been helpful to explore specific tropes more (just like Breakfast Club does). Jax keeps mentioning tropes, but they are kinda left there and I don't find them as specific. I think a deeper work on which tropes the characters were going to explore and how could have helped with the characterization and their respective stories.
WHAT I DID NOT LIKE
Despite the above critics, it is not that I did not enjoy the finale. I am happy I have watched it and considering what I knew from the summary (I knew about the spoilers beforehand) I was sure I was going to dislike it more. Instead I did not hate it. That said, there are some things I deeply disliked and I am going to point them out. Like hamliet wrote in her meta, they have to do with the way suicide and mental illness are portrayed. This is just my opinion and mostly my feelings, so it is totally fine if people felt differently. I have three major issues.
1- I personally did not like Kinger's words when he was trying to cheer Pomni up. I don't have anything against Kinger pointing out Pomni has been doing her best to uplift everyone and that she is very strong. The part I get issue with is when Kinger points out Pomni coped with the circus better than anyone else. Tadc is at its core a story that explores how online life can fasten mental issues. I don't like that in a series about this theme one character is singled out as "better than others 'cause she copes better". I think it is very simplistic. It is true there are good and bad ways to cope, but I also think some people may cope very well in some circumstances and very badly in others. I dislike a pep talk where the protagonist is told she is stronger 'cause she has healthier coping mechanisms in this context. There is also the icky subtext that... Pomni is the only character without deep traumas or mental illnesses affecting her before entering the circus (with the exception of Kinger himself). Zooble struggles with gender dysphoria, Gangle has depression, Ragatha is an abuse survivor. Jax has basically everyone else's problems and more. Pomni was a pretty chill person, whose major problem was that she was a little bit lonely.
I don't really like that the character who is framed as the most heroic is the one with less trauma or mental issues, while the character that in the end kills herself and is framed as the most negative or at least gray one is the character with ALL the problems of the others. I would find it in bad taste in general. I strongly dislike it in a story focused on mental illness specifically. To be clear, I don't think there is any malice in this. I think it was not meant to convey this message, but I get it anyway because the story is poorly structured and ends up conveying simplistic messages.
2- I find Ribbit's abstraction and conflict with Jax to be very badly done. Not considering what hamliet already pointed out about it not following guidelines about how you should portray suicide in medias... it is simply not psychologically realistic.
Ribbit is introduced as perfectly integrated among the other members of the circus. If anything she is more integrated than Ragatha, as she is shown to be a close friend with Kafumo. Ribbit and Ragatha get along well enough, but Ribbit clearly prefers to hang out with Kafumu and Jax, which leaves Rags as the odd one out. She is shown to be extroverted and to be well liked, so it makes zero sense to me that the conflict she has with Jax would lead her to abstract. Especially because... what does Jax even do? She is simply a bitch that gets super weird about their moment of intimacy. Like, I am sorry, but Regina George is a more threatening, crueler and openly malicious character than Jax is. What Jax does is that she starts putting some distance between herself and Ribbit, refuses to engage much with her and basically ghosts her. She does not bully her actively, nor attacks her, nor drives others against her. Even their very famous fight in the snowy adventure is super lame, I am sorry. All Jax does is to refuse to engage in any meaningful way with Ribbit. It is exhausting sure, but 9 people out of 10 would simply tell Jax "fuck you" and will keep going with their life. Ribbit could have simply fallen back on the support system she had before Jax arrived. She could have deepened her friendship with Ragatha and Kafumu and could have let Jax at her own devices, until she felt ready to maybe talk. And sure, you are gonna tell me... but there is still that 1 person out of 10 that could have reacted like Ribbit did! Sure, but that person is bound to have more complex reasons than just... a friend was mean to me (also they were superficial friends, considering their key scene is Ribbit trying to deepen their friendship and it ends up poorly, which means their previous bond could not have been that deep; it's true that in very bad situations a person you truly like can be a life-saver, but again Ribbit had still Kafumu and Ragatha she could have leaned on). Like, I am sorry, but if you wanna portray something as complex as depression or as suicide, you gotta put in the work. Here, it was not done. In general, Jax is incredibly passive and does almost nothing, if not being an ass. How can you frame her as responsible for Ribbit's abstraction? Then what? If I have a fight with a person and they kill themselves should I be considered guilty of their suicide, for real? Then what? Let's never have discussions, nor conflicts, nor fights again? 'Cause there are bound to be conflicts in relationships and to be able to distinguish between a healthy degree of conflict and a relationship that grows toxic is kind of key to have a healthy emotional life. This leads me to my final point.
3- This has more to do with fandom discourse than the story itself. However, since the narrative is so overly simplified, I think part of the problem lies in the story too. In short, I don't like how the major debate of the fandom is if Jax deserves or not empathy. And I don't like how this stems from the story presenting Pomni and everyone else having empathy for Jax as this incredibly heroic and generous act. It should not be seen as that incredible or special. It should be fucking normal and a story about this should be considered BORING because people should go... uh? Of course a scared 20 year old closeted trans woman, who has been brought up in an abusive household and that has been living on the streets without an economic stable situation should be given empathy. Again Jax IS NOT EVEN THAT MUCH PROBLEMATIC. All she does is to be annoying. Full stop. She kills no-one (no matter how the story insists she did). Her worst trait is her bullying of Gangle, but it has no real consequences and we are talking about a story where Caine tortures everyone for days and they all react as if the problem is that their boss is making them work past working hours... and Caine gets happily welcomed back anyway. So, yeah, I don't find a story whose greatest moral conflict is to decide if to feel sorry or not for a suicidal character that much inspiring. Like, you wanna stories where empathy is actually hard, but requested? I dunno, try watching Revolutionary Girl Utena or Reading Monster. There there are actual VERY bad victims that lash out by killing people and hurting the people closest to them in truly horrible ways. Those are interesting explorations on what it means to feel empathy for a person who is clearly suffering, but has also stepped over many lines.
Again, you don't have to agree with me. This last paragraph is really me being very emotional. I think the message the story wants to convey is the one in the first paragraph, which is lovely and understandable. I just think the oversimplification ended up unwillingly mirroring an oversimplification I find in our society and which annoys me. It seems to me people are so focused on hyper-reacting to any little thing that could be not 100% okay that we forget to like... approach things with actual humanity. Sure, Jax should die because she is annoying, but if you want to truly be heroic you can maybe decide to give her empathy, but only if you feel like it, don't worry. I would never want to overstep your boundaries or to make you feel uncomfortable or to even slightly bother you or give you... god forbid!... stress! I heard a little stress can cause suicide, you know?
Hey Hamlet, what do you think about the TADC show in general, now that it's over and has ended?
I will say it has a ton of really good thematic ideas and complex layers. However, it leaves most of those themes undercooked at best and is messy in structure.
Ultimately, you can really tell that this is the writer's first major work they've created. She clearly has a ton of talent and I think she'll make great, thematically consistent works in the future.
Imo, TADC is just not very well done. The last three episodes were a narrative mess. But few peoples' first works are their masterpieces, so understand this is not me disliking the writers or thinking they are bad writers or bad people. I don't think that. I think the opposite.
But narratively, TADC is inconsistent in too many ways, and does not clearly have a thematic message it wants to convey. It was very clearly not planned out from start to finish from the beginning.
I'm not going to get into super in depth here and probably won't answer follow ups, so just be warned.
Structure
Structurally, the story repeatedly sets up things it doesn't pay off. The story starts off setting up Ragatha, Pomni, and Jax as a narrative trio, but there is no actual foiling or exploration.
Ragatha, for example, is mentioned as being potentially manipulative because she's so nice, but then the story never does anything with this.
Pomni is barely a character at all, with no arc and no real development. What changes in her? What is her flaw that keeps her from reaching her goal?
The narrative became commandeered by Jax, who was imo the most promising character and whom I really liked (and is the breakout character for a reason). Now, this can be a solid narrative structure: slowly coalesce a story around the pivotal character.
However, TADC fails at this because Jax... doesn't do anything to affect the main plot, or even the other characters, besides being mean. Stories are typically ultimately far more interesting when characters comment on the traits each other has (when they foil each other), when they affect each other, rather than when they exist in the same world but have very little to no effect on one another.
Jax
That meanness doesn't have major consequences for anyone but Jax, either. Except Ribbit, but they were introduced so late that it felt like the narrative telling us rather than showing us something of import.
I'm seeing so much discourse about how Jax is bad representation because she isn't a very good person. That is not the case. Jax isn’t bad representation because she does bad things. Jax is a poorly written character because she has very little thematic consistency, regardless of her identity.
The narrative frames Jax's actions as horrifically wrong, but at worse, Jax is mean. Jax is unkind, a bully, potentially cruel at times. But... Jax never does anything worse than being mean. And it's completely valid to explore bullying and meanness and the toll it takes on someone. The problem is that Jax's mean traits are framed in-universe as being like, war crimes. The characters in the show gasp and react as if Jax is a genocidal irredeemable murderer every time she's mean, and that defies believability for me. It's disproportionate to reality.
Mental Health Subtext
The subtext of Jax's gender identity has gotten a lot of commentary, and like I said, I don't actually see an issue with that. My issue is the subtext around suicide, and this is probably the part that I'm most frustrated with.
Yes, I know the voice actor insisted that abstraction isn't actually death. Sorry, but this is the only time I'm going to directly criticize a person involved in the show's production. That was an intellectually dishonest statement even if well-intentioned.
If abstraction was not intended to be death, then like... show someone recovering from abstraction. But that doesn't happen. If abstraction can be institutionalization, as the actor suggested, you can still interact with someone who is institutionalized, even if it's not quite the same as it could be Before. Abstraction just doesn't work as a metaphor for institutionalization. If that was the intent, then they undercooked this idea and failed to develop it at all.
You can't come in after the narrative is over when the narrative gives you zero indication of this and be like "oh, but don't worry, this thing never suggested in the story can be the case!" and present that as anything more than a headcanon. I'm sorry, but that's demonstrably not true, and if it was the intention, the impact didn't convey that at all.
And because these topics--mental health, particularly su*c*de, and institutionalization if that wasn't just something made up at the end--are so complex and heavy, I do think they should have exercised more care in their portrayal than they did.
See, TADC didn't even come close to adhering to the guidelines developed by actual experts for covering su*c*de in media (fiction and nonfiction like reporting). If you're going to make this a major part of your story, you have a responsibility to do this. You do, and no amount of well-intentioned care (which I do believe the creators had) makes up for irresponsibility. Now, they did hit some of the recommendations, but not all of them, but I don't think this is a partial credit situation.
For example, we have Ribbit's abstraction. Ribbit is suggested to have ended their life because of Jax. Yet this is a well-established and publicized guidelines:
Convey that [it] is complex and often caused by a range of factors, rather than by a single event.
In a narrative, I understand why it is difficult to portray the complexity of mental health and causes of death by it. I still think TADC leaned closer to this well-used yet dangerous trope of oversimplifying it to a single cause. And, they do this a bit with Jax, as well.
Jax's mental health is framed as a moral failing, as if her meanness and mental health are hopeless intertwined, and I don't think they did a good enough job differentiating who Jax is outside of their mental illness. The narrative just isn't clear enough that mental health, depression, and su*cidiality is not a moral failing. It is someone struggling. It is hard. Yes, bad moral choices can exacerbate these symptoms, but they are not the full cause, and someone with great moral choices can be just as vulnerable to dying from depression the same way someone who eats well and exercises is not necessarily always going to beat cancer over than someone who doesn't.
A) There was no one who wanted to be a 'mean' strict editor and put their foot down to force cuts and re writes.
And/Or
B) The story grew beyond the the creators control and she refused to adapt to it.
I know a lot of people are saying we needed filler and more episodes but I believe 9 episodes could've worked.
They could've either dedicated 7 episodes to exploring each character with Pomni, 1 to the pilot and 1 for the finale
Or
Cut one of the characters so we get an extra episode for a lore dump episode that could lead into the finale.
I say Zooble since they were already so thoroughly sidelined. Either don't have them or combine their character with Pomni so Pomni could BE a character and have her conversations with others have more oomf to it. Like Zooble's conversations with Gangle was far more effective than Pomni's with everyone else. They both already serve the similar function and hell, you could argue that Pomni yelling at Caine leading to his breakdown should've gone to Zooble since they actually had an antagonist relationship with him.
Also Kaufmo should've been cut and replaced with Ribbit. It would've made the Jax - Ribbit - Pomni thing be more impactful. Hell, put Ragatha in Kaufmo's place and you could explore some really interesting stuff with Jax and Ragatha projecting their grief onto Pomni.
Also cut Scratch and make Kinger and Queenie Caine's developers. Have Kinger get an arc about his regret and shame over his actions and running away from confronting his past.
It's just do baffling how the main premise was just... thrown away.
Like what do you mean everyone's chill with being mind copies trapped in a server they can never log out of while their real selves are living their best lives?
How one earth was it possible to go the whole show without exploring Abstractions AT ALL?
Abstraction should've been treated like Corrupted Gems in Steven Universe where the ultimate goal was to bring them back.
We should've seen the mind Palace stuff in Kinger's flashback and Pomni should've been pushing to figure out what the hell Abstraction is and how to deal with it.
Like it's so easy. Just have everyone think Abstraction means death and Pomni realize it isn't. Then BAM, the s*c*ide allegory is gone.
Have Pomni develop bonds with everyone and actually give them good advice (The stuff with Gangle was weak sauce. The Zooble conversations should have gone to Pomni!) and when the SOMA reveal happens (which should've been what Caine actually did during his crash out) Pomni could use the power of friendship to convince everyone their lives still have meaning.
Have her save Ragatha from nearly Abstracting (parallel to pilot to show the growth in their bond), Jax from his actual Abstraction, and Caine from his negative spiral (through the talk like she had with Gummigoo and helping to reconcile Kinger and Caine).
Then have them end the series actually being okay with being copies and working to bring back all the Abstractions.
And this is just my rough draft I came up with on the spot and I know it's still lacking. But atleast it sticks to the premise introduced in the pilot.
Hey Hamlet, what do you think about the TADC show in general, now that it's over and has ended?
I will say it has a ton of really good thematic ideas and complex layers. However, it leaves most of those themes undercooked at best and is messy in structure.
Ultimately, you can really tell that this is the writer's first major work they've created. She clearly has a ton of talent and I think she'll make great, thematically consistent works in the future.
Imo, TADC is just not very well done. The last three episodes were a narrative mess. But few peoples' first works are their masterpieces, so understand this is not me disliking the writers or thinking they are bad writers or bad people. I don't think that. I think the opposite.
But narratively, TADC is inconsistent in too many ways, and does not clearly have a thematic message it wants to convey. It was very clearly not planned out from start to finish from the beginning.
I'm not going to get into super in depth here and probably won't answer follow ups, so just be warned.
Structure
Structurally, the story repeatedly sets up things it doesn't pay off. The story starts off setting up Ragatha, Pomni, and Jax as a narrative trio, but there is no actual foiling or exploration.
Ragatha, for example, is mentioned as being potentially manipulative because she's so nice, but then the story never does anything with this.
Pomni is barely a character at all, with no arc and no real development. What changes in her? What is her flaw that keeps her from reaching her goal?
The narrative became commandeered by Jax, who was imo the most promising character and whom I really liked (and is the breakout character for a reason). Now, this can be a solid narrative structure: slowly coalesce a story around the pivotal character.
However, TADC fails at this because Jax... doesn't do anything to affect the main plot, or even the other characters, besides being mean. Stories are typically ultimately far more interesting when characters comment on the traits each other has (when they foil each other), when they affect each other, rather than when they exist in the same world but have very little to no effect on one another.
Jax
That meanness doesn't have major consequences for anyone but Jax, either. Except Ribbit, but they were introduced so late that it felt like the narrative telling us rather than showing us something of import.
I'm seeing so much discourse about how Jax is bad representation because she isn't a very good person. That is not the case. Jax isn’t bad representation because she does bad things. Jax is a poorly written character because she has very little thematic consistency, regardless of her identity.
The narrative frames Jax's actions as horrifically wrong, but at worse, Jax is mean. Jax is unkind, a bully, potentially cruel at times. But... Jax never does anything worse than being mean. And it's completely valid to explore bullying and meanness and the toll it takes on someone. The problem is that Jax's mean traits are framed in-universe as being like, war crimes. The characters in the show gasp and react as if Jax is a genocidal irredeemable murderer every time she's mean, and that defies believability for me. It's disproportionate to reality.
Mental Health Subtext
The subtext of Jax's gender identity has gotten a lot of commentary, and like I said, I don't actually see an issue with that. My issue is the subtext around suicide, and this is probably the part that I'm most frustrated with.
Yes, I know the voice actor insisted that abstraction isn't actually death. Sorry, but this is the only time I'm going to directly criticize a person involved in the show's production. That was an intellectually dishonest statement even if well-intentioned.
If abstraction was not intended to be death, then like... show someone recovering from abstraction. But that doesn't happen. If abstraction can be institutionalization, as the actor suggested, you can still interact with someone who is institutionalized, even if it's not quite the same as it could be Before. Abstraction just doesn't work as a metaphor for institutionalization. If that was the intent, then they undercooked this idea and failed to develop it at all.
You can't come in after the narrative is over when the narrative gives you zero indication of this and be like "oh, but don't worry, this thing never suggested in the story can be the case!" and present that as anything more than a headcanon. I'm sorry, but that's demonstrably not true, and if it was the intention, the impact didn't convey that at all.
And because these topics--mental health, particularly su*c*de, and institutionalization if that wasn't just something made up at the end--are so complex and heavy, I do think they should have exercised more care in their portrayal than they did.
See, TADC didn't even come close to adhering to the guidelines developed by actual experts for covering su*c*de in media (fiction and nonfiction like reporting). If you're going to make this a major part of your story, you have a responsibility to do this. You do, and no amount of well-intentioned care (which I do believe the creators had) makes up for irresponsibility. Now, they did hit some of the recommendations, but not all of them, but I don't think this is a partial credit situation.
For example, we have Ribbit's abstraction. Ribbit is suggested to have ended their life because of Jax. Yet this is a well-established and publicized guidelines:
Convey that [it] is complex and often caused by a range of factors, rather than by a single event.
In a narrative, I understand why it is difficult to portray the complexity of mental health and causes of death by it. I still think TADC leaned closer to this well-used yet dangerous trope of oversimplifying it to a single cause. And, they do this a bit with Jax, as well.
Jax's mental health is framed as a moral failing, as if her meanness and mental health are hopeless intertwined, and I don't think they did a good enough job differentiating who Jax is outside of their mental illness. The narrative just isn't clear enough that mental health, depression, and su*cidiality is not a moral failing. It is someone struggling. It is hard. Yes, bad moral choices can exacerbate these symptoms, but they are not the full cause, and someone with great moral choices can be just as vulnerable to dying from depression the same way someone who eats well and exercises is not necessarily always going to beat cancer over than someone who doesn't.
Design Details in Hazbin Hotel: Mirror Mirror on the Wall
"It's a Deal" starts with both Charlie and Alastor in front of a mirror. This parallel:
Sets up Charlie and Alastor's respective conflicts in 2x4
Tells us something about who they are
TOMATO IN THE MIRROR
The Princess of Hell and the Radio Demon look in the mirror and don't like what they see:
Charlie has had her public image slandered by the Vees. She can't accept she may be an immature communicator and leader. This is why she sets up an interview with Katie Killjoy, even if it is obviously a bad idea.
Alastor has had his power questioned by Adam. The archangel easily defeated him and even hurt him. This is why Alastor angrily looks at the wound. His is not really a physical problem, but a psychological one. Alastor cultivated an image of invincibility that was destroyed in one single fight.
Charlie and Alastor have both their pride crushed, which is why they act immaturely throughout the episode:
Charlie puts herself into an avoidable bad situation and lets her inner child sing for her, which spectacularly backfires
Alastor goes to Rosie with a childish threat (to leave the Hazbin Hotel); once it fails he comes up with a plan, which is both clever and a huge temper tantrum
Both have concerns about the way they see themselves and are seen by others. They project these struggles outside and make them everyone else's problem. What exactly are these issues? Let's discover them by observing Charlie and Alastor's mirrors.
CHARLIE: A PERFORMATIVE SELF
Charlie's Mirror
Charlie's mirror is framed by a circus tent full of lights, which is fun because:
The circus lights are substitutes for the spotlights typically used for mirrors
The circus motif is a recurring one for Charlie, since she is Lucifer's daughter and the Princess of Hell
Stage curtains opening up on Charlie's mirror speak of Charlie's pressure to over-perform
Charlie thinks of herself as a performer on a stage, that needs to be perfect and to deliver a wonderful show. She must appear capable and in control because people have to think highly of her to compensate Charlie's low self-esteem.
Charlie and Vaggi's Room
Charlie's frail self is well expressed by Charlie's side of the room being full of mirrors:
Like, if you have such a huge collection of mirrors, something tells me you might have self issues :P. Additionally, Charlie's part of the room seems to be more consistently in the light, compared to Vaggi's, which stays mostly in the shadows (even if this could be reaching):
If this detail is wanted, it fits Chaggi's light and shadow motif:
All of this adds to Charlie's characterization. Our girl puts herself in the spotlight to desperately try and be someone worthy of love.
Details About Charlie's Mirror
Charlie's mirror has an eye at its top; this ain't surprising given the series's eye-motif. Still,the eye on the mirror suggests that Charlie is overly sensitive to how others perceive her.
Charlie's mirror is decorated with hearts, which work with Charlie's cutesy character, but also hint at her desperate craving for love; she puts hearts on her reflection to try and love herself.
Charlie has a second smaller mirror on the right side of the shelf. Again, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM GIRL!
Charlie's mirror-shelf is FULL of cosmetics, which is hilarious considering Charlie isn't a super fashionable character; she usually wears the same outfit every day and does not experiment with make-ups or hairstyles, like Velvette does. Here, make-ups and perfumes refer to Charlie's tendency to wear a mask (a persona).
Rosie's Emporium card can be seen on the left; this detail both foreshadows Rosie's role in 2x4 and highlights Rosie's impact on Charlie. Our princess misses her mom and Rosie has acted as a mother-figure when Charlie needed one the most. I am curious to see how this will come back to bite everyone in the ass.
Charlie and Vaggi's Discussion
Chaggi's scene in episode 2x4 uses the mirror symbolism efficiently to show Charlie's state of mind:
Throughout the whole conversation Vaggi is trying to get through to Charlie:
Vaggi: Charlie, babe, I think you need to drop this.
Charlie: Drop what? I'm just trying to clear up the misinformation about the hotel.
Vaggi: There is no point. Those fuckers work for Vox. Katie Killjoy is just gonna do the same thing the Vees did.
However, Charlie ignores her because she is too self-focused. This is perfectly conveyed by the frame of Charlie looking back at Vaggi through her mirror. This happens as Vaggi says this:
Vaggi: Don't feed into this crap. Just stay with me today. And the guests, also the guests.
Vaggi is asking for Charlie's company and wants to shower her with affection to distract her. Still, Charlie is too focused on her public image, so she pushes Vaggi and the Hazbin Hotel away.
Charlie and Fizzarolli
Charlie's mirror symbolism reminds me of Fizzarolli's arc in Mammon's Magnificent Musical.
Fizz collects mirrors, uses make-up to cover his wounds and is obsessed by how others perceive him. Hell, even his mirror is similar to Charlie's since they share the circus motif:
And just like Charlie, Fizz has a lover who is worried about him and tries to persuade him to let go of a clearly toxic obsession. Charlie and Fizz don't listen to their lovers' words, but Vaggi and Ozzie eventually get through with a song:
Vaggi is able to force Charlie outside of her mind - she destroys the fort modeled after a circus tent that Charlie has built
Ozzie is able to act as the mirror Fizz needs - he shows Fizz he loves him as a whole, both strength and weaknesses alike
ALASTOR: A STAGNATING SELF
Alastor's Mirror
Alastor's mirror is a classy old one with an eye decoration, which hints at the Radio Demon tying who he is to how others see him (just like Charlie). Other than this, the looking-glass is characterized by a plant motif, that has two meanings:
1-It connects Alastor to Rosie, whose Cannibal Town is full of roses with black thorns:
2-It calls back to Alastor's old shelter in the forest, where he used to dispose of his victims' bodies and where he eventually died:
Alastor's Room
The influence of Alastor's "house in the woods" is not limited to the mirror, but permeates his whole room.
From what we can see of it, Alastor's room is basically the forest where he died with some parts of his old base materialized here and there. This detail is interesting for two reasons.
1- It shows that Alastor is stuck in his past life and trauma - Alastor can't escape the forest where he used to "hunt":
And where he himself was eventually "hunted":
Alastor is both predator and prey. In order to stop getting exploited, he should stop exploiting others, but he refuses to do so. As a result, he finds himself in a cycle he can't break and hurts himself:
Alastor's cannibalism (of both people and deer) is a way to self-harm masked as a display of power. All in all, Alastor can't really change and is just stagnating in the same toxic dynamics that defined his human life.
2- Alastor creates his room by using his powers - This detail shows Alastor's determination not to depend on others, while highlighting his hypocrisy.
On the one hand Alastor refuses to depend on the Morningstars and especially on Lucifer's power. On the other hand his own powers come from Rosie. In short, he builds his room to show how much "better" than the other residents he is. However, he is really just relying on a different power-source.
At the same time, Alastor's room shows how little integrated he is with the rest of the Hazbin Hotel Crew. After all, his personal style does not match that of the rest of the building.
The best example of this clash is Husk's bar.
In season 1, Husk's bar is magically summoned by Alastor. The Radio Demon teleports a part of a completely different building into the Hazbin Hotel, which makes the bar appear out of place:
In season 2, Husk's bar gets build anew and it is much more integrated in the Hazbin Hotel building:
Sure, Velvette notices that it still has some "clashing themes", but it is much better compared to his previous version. Moreover, Husks's second bar is designed to resemble Husks's personality much more:
The first bar has Husk's slot machine and wings, but Alastor's presence overshadows these details. After all it is difficult not to immediately notice the giant skulls at the top of it.
The second bar has Husk's motifs much more accentuated. The wings are bigger, cat paws decorate the wall above the bottles and card suits are used in the place of the slot machines. This final choice is important because cards are associated both with Husk's gambling addiction (negative) and with his talent as a magician (positive). In other words, Husk's new bar embodies both his flaws and talents, while the old one only represented his ugly parts. Finally, Alastor's influence is toned down. There is a lot of green and some decorations resemble Alastor's antlers, but that is all.
In other words, Husk is integrating with the Hazbin Hotel's crew and is clearly together with them not out of obligation. He chooses to be a part of their small family. The same can't be said about Alastor, who is still keeping secrets and seeing himself as a one-man team.
Details About Alastor's Mirror
There are three objects on Alastor's mirror shelf:
Alastor's microphone, which alludes to his past as a radio host and it ties with his radio motif - it represents both Alasor's persona (filtered voice) and his true self (true voice stolen by Rosie)
Niffty's crown made of cockroaches, which shows that Alastor has the ability to care deeply about other people - it represents Alastor's inner child
Bottles of alcohol, which prove how similar Alastor is to Husk, even if the Radio Demon would never admit it (starting your day with a glass full of alcohol ain't healthy Al :P) - it represents Alastor's shadow
So, Alastor's mirror symbolically showcases the different sides of Alastor's self and links them to the members of the radiotrio. In the end, Niffty and Husk are parts of who Alastor is.
Alastor and Lucifer's Discussion
Alastor and Lucifer's confrontation in 2x4 may not use mirror symbolism directly, but does an excellent job at showing why Alastor and Lucifer are really perfect reflections of each other:
In the frame above, Alastor and Lucifer sit one in front of the other, with complementary mugs themed around the fact they hope the other dies XD. Such losers.
Alastor and Lucifer's conversation is important for both characters.
Alastor
Power and Love
Lucifer: Oh, and I hear you got your ass kicked and ran away when Charlie needed you most.
Lucifer's line above puts salt on Alastor's wound for two reasons. On the one hand it calls out Alastor and Lucifer's difference in power. On the other hand it draws attention to Alastor and Charlie's bond implying Alastor does care for Charlie.
Alastor's defeat in season 1 shocks the Radio Demon both because he discovers to have less power than he thinks and because he realizes he would risk his life out of love for others:
Alastor: This place reeks of death, there's a chill in the air
And I barely escaped being killed by a hair
"Great Alastor, altruist, died for his friends"?
Sorry to disappoint... That is not where this ends!
Alastor is so angry about both his weakness and his emotional vulnerability that he equates the two ideas. In one phrase Lucifer hits both topics and humiliates Alastor.
Clean and Dirty
Lucifer: You... should use a coaster.
Alastor: That's it! Fuck this, I quit.
Lucifer reminds Alastor of the rich white people who abused their power against him. Lucifer's line about "using a coaster" ties into this subtext. The implication here is that Alastor is seen as "dirty". It is the same symbolism that we later find in Alastor's flashback:
The irony is that Alastor himself makes use of similar mannerisms and cleans his hand after touching Lucifer in 1x5:
Alastor both despises and envies Lucifer. He despises him because he sees the King of Hell as a symbol of all his struggles to "climb up". He envies him because deep down Alastor wishes to be in Lucifer's place when it comes to power. That is because Alastor sees power as a synonymous of freedom. He wants to be stronger than anyone else, so he does not have to answer to anybody.
Lucifer
Names
Lucifer: Oh! Look who it is interrupting this riveting conversation I was having with... Who are you again?
Angel Dust: Uh, Angel Dust.
Lucifer: Angel Dust! I knew that. You're funny.
Angel Dust: What?
Lucifer hates Alastor, but ironically enough Alastor is basically the only person other than Charlie Lucifer is able to forge some kind of relationship with. One of scorn and rivalry, sure, but still a bond. This is made clear by the fact Alastor's name is the only one Lucifer actually remembers:
This is also why Lucifer is basically lost in his own little world and only animates when Alastor enters the room:
He basically acts as a child trying to show off how well he fits in with the other kids to unnerve the person he can't stand:
Lucifer: It's a sure good thing I showed up, am I right? This guy knows.
Angel Dust: What?
Still, Alastor is really the only one Lucifer is having a true conversation with and once he leaves the King of Hell is left lonely again:
Lucifer: Agh! Oh gahhh- You...
Angel Dust: (laughs; to Cherry) You should've moved in sooner.
Mr Useless
Lucifer: Someone has to actually help out around here, Mr. Useless. What do you actually do here?
Lucifer's line above is about Alastor, but it is true for Lucifer himself. He is Mr Useless, as he has more power than anyone else, but refuses to do anything meaningful with it. "What do you actually do here?" is a question Lucifer should truly ask himself. Both Charlie and Hell are spiraling and he has been doing nothing about it, neither as a father nor a King. In other words, Lucifer takes his own issues and projects them on Alastor (and other Sinners). He himself feels useless, so he needs to prove Alastor is more useless than he is.
Alastor and Lucifer's discussion is meaningful in juxtaposition with Charlie and Vaggi's one.
Vaggi tries to call out Charlie on her behavior, but Charlie fails to listen. Ironically enough, among a ton of insults, Lucifer too manages to point out Alastor's failings:
Alastor: I told you, I'm the host of the hotel.
Lucifer: Huh, I thought that was, uh, I thought that was Charlie's girlfriend's job, because she, my friend, is on it with running this whole hotel... thing.
Here, Lucifer is right as the Radio Demon has been failing as the host of the hotel. If he had assisted Charlie since the beginning of the season Vox would have never gained that much power. Even if Alastor decided to lock in at this point, the situation would have still been salvageable. Instead, Alastor lets his hate for Lucifer completely blind him. He decides to make a risky gamble, which almost destroys all of Hell, Lucifer and Alastor himself :P
Aaaahhh thank you for sending an ask but also how dare you give me the vaguest ask of them all! Too much choice about what to ramble about, so it took a while to settle on one thing since there’s many Big Fandom Thoughts I have, especially about hazbin as of late
Buuuuut since it’s pride month and also fallenwings week, (at least when I started writing this lmao) I figured I’d ramble about some silly Lute/Vaggi thoughts I had, specifically what disney song I think fits them best.
For a long while Hellfire from the hunchback of notre dame clearly held that place and still does ( @mwright30313326 animatic for this is fantastic btw). The religious trauma, repressed sexuality and internalised shame and self loathing projected outwards definitely fits Lute really, really well:
Beata Maria
You know I am a righteous man
Of my virtue I am justly proud
(Et tibit Pater)
Beata Maria
You know I'm so much purer than
The common, vulgar, weak, licentious crowd
(Quia peccavi nimis)
Then tell me, Maria
Why I see her dancing there
Why her smold'ring eyes still scorch my soul
(Cogitatione)
I feel her, I see her
The sun caught in her raven hair
Is blazing in me out of all control
(Verbo et opere)
Like fire
Hellfire
This fire in my skin
This burning
Desire
Is turning me to sin
It's not my fault
(Mea culpa)
I'm not to blame
It is the gypsy girl
The witch who sent this flame
(Mea maxima culpa)
It's not my fault
(Mea culpa)
If in God's plan
(Mea culpa)
He made the devil so much
Stronger than a man
(Mea maxima culpa)
However for a Disney duet song between Lute and Vaggi both, one song works perfectly for them imo.
…and that’s I Don’t Dance from High School Musical 2
WAIT WAIT HEAR ME OUT
Obviously this is a much sillier and more light hearted option than Hellfire, but there’s layers to this song in how very queer coded it is. The subtext (which is not very subtle lmao, the song is full of double entendres, innuendos and LGBT slang, and the director for the movie was an openly gay man himself who confirmed the queer subtext in the movies was intentional, though they could not make it explicit at the time) song I Don’t Dance is about Ryan, a character who was intended to be an openly gay character according to the director Kenny Ortega (turned down by Disney, ofc), help Chad, who is coded as an closeted and repressed bisexual, come to terms with their sexuality, relating to this idea through dance specifically and musical theater in general, trying to teach him how to dance while they play baseball:
CHAD:
If you wanna play ball, then grab a mitt. But I don’t dance.
RYAN:
You don’t think dancing takes some game?
RYAN:
I'll show you that it's one and the same
Baseball, dancing, same game
It's easy
Step up to the place, start swingin
CHAD:
I wanna play ball now, and that's all
This is what I do
It ain't no dance that you can show me, yeah
RYAN
You'll never know
CHAD
Oh I know
RYAN:
If you never try
CHAD:
There's just one little thing
That stops me every time, yeah
RYAN:
Come on!
CHAD:
I don't dance
RYAN:
I know you can
CHAD:
Not a chance, no
RYAN:
If I could do this, well, you could do that
CHAD:
But I don't dance
RYAN:
Hit it out of the park
CHAD:
I don't dance
RYAN:
I say you can
CHAD:
There's not a chance, oh
RYAN:
Slide home, you score, swingin on the dance floor
CHAD
I don't dance, no
RYAN:
Two-steppin, now you're up to bat
Bases loaded, do your dance
It's easy
Take your best shot, just hit it
CHAD:
I've got what it takes, playin my game
So you better spin that pitch
You're gonna throw me, yeah
I'll show you how I swing
(...the next scene of them together after the song ends shows the two having swapped clothes, which shippers often interpret as them having just had gay sex)
Chad is a sports jock who sees a rigid black and white binary of what he can and can’t do, baseball/sports are more masculine interests that fall within the acceptable parameters of what he can like/do, while dancing and musical theater is too effeminate and queer. Ryan tells him baseball and dancing are not so different, and that it’s possible to like both, much like how a person’s sexuality, or in a bigger sense the nature of the world itself, is much more fluid and complex. Chad can’t bring himself to open up to this idea (“there’s just one little thing that stops me every time”) and so outright refuses and ridicules the idea because of his own insecurities, and so unlike Ryan is not able to fully express himself.
Ryan is a theater kid who in the last movie of the trilogy realises how much he loves dance choreography in particular, and in the second movie has him teaching Chad how to dance and choreographing the performance that wins the talent competition.
The reason this applies so well for Vaggi and Lute is that Vaggi herself is a dancer, it’s how she’s most comfortable expressing herself (Charlie has singing and Angel Dust has acting, Vaggi has dancing). But she’s also a fighter, like Lute, and she learns that fighting and dancing are not so different. The climax of her arc in S1 has her go through a dance and fight lesson with Carmilla, where Vaggi starts to reconcile the two different halves of herself as a lover (dancing) and a soldier (fighting).
And then in S2 we see her showcase this growth best in her duet song with Charlie in Easy, where she pulls her out of her spiral and finally gets through to her in the language she speaks best, dance!
(...which also acts as a metaphor for them having gay sex and doing the “devil’s tango”)
Which ofc you already know because I’ve read your fantastic metas on Vaggi’s arc.
Much like Chad, Lute is very much coded as a repressed bisexual and a lot of her internalised biphobia/homophobia is directed outwards in lashing out at Vaggi, who is open and comfortable in her sexuality as a gay woman. Both are exorcist soldiers who are expected to conform to a certain standard, they all wear the same uniform and keep their hair short, being seen as too emotional or empathetic is a deviance and weakness that is punished, that Lute herself enforces when she’s sees any one stepping outside the status quo:
So there’s a very specific repression of the expression of gender and sexuality going on with the exorcists, that can mirror that of high school sport jocks, Adding on to this is Adam being their commander, who wore a jacket that is deliberately meant to be styled like a letterman varsity jacket, that a jock/sports captain would wear, fitting with his toxic macho persona, and who is the one placing these expectations on to them.
Chad is also like… So obsessed, especially in the first movie, with every one sticking to the status quo and resents the idea of change or people *gasp* having more than one interest outside of their specific clique, because of how it threatens his way of life. And spends most of the movie trying to discourage Troy from pursuing musical theater alongside basketball. This is pretty much a recurring theme for the HSM trilogy, are you defined by one thing? Or is it possible to be and do more?
No, no, no, no
No, no, no
Stick to the stuff you know
It is better by far to keep things as they are
Don't mess with the flow, no, no
Stick to the status quo
Lute: ♫ What are we even talkin' about? ♫
♫ Some crack-whore who fucked up already? ♫
♫ He blew his shot, like the cocks in his mouth ♫
[Lute stands up and puts her Exorcist mask on.]
♫This discussion is senseless and petty♫
[Both Adam and Lute fly up in front of Charlie, before flying over to and landing on the orb.]
Lute and Adam: ♫There's no question to be posed♫
♫He's unholy, case closed♫
♫ Did you forget that "Hell is forever"? ♫
And this goes for the exorcists with Lute and Vaggi. Lute clings to the status quo of heaven, of Adam’s black and white ideology, angels never make mistakes and those that do are unworthy of heaven, and sinners are defined by their mistakes and cannot be more than that. To her, they are as different as night and day
Charlie: But these are souls...Human souls just the same as the ones you have up in heaven.
Lute: (coldly) They are not the same. They had their chance and they earned damnation.
Charlie: You're wrong. Sinners made mistakes, sure, but everyone makes mistakes.
Lute: Angels don't make mistakes.
Charlie: You really think that.
Lute: I know that.
And Lute has to believe that, because if winners and sinners aren’t so different, then her life’s purpose as a soldier and exorcist means nothing, and by extension she would be nothing. It’s a direct threat to her way of life.
But Vaggi shows that it doesn’t have to mean nothing. Her skills and experience as a soldier and exorcist still very much play a part in her life and come in use many times, including her trust exercise in S1:
Vaggie: No. I told you you could trust me, and I'm not going to let you down. [walks away from Charlie] I just need to teach them, the way I was taught...
[As she said this, Vaggie smiles with excitement when she has the perfect trust exercise for all of them.]
[The scene changes to the group standing on a rooftop with half-destroyed buildings all around them. Everyone was shocked that the exercise has taken them to a live turf war battlefield with guns blazing in the background, demons screaming, and explosions booming.]
Charlie: *shouting over the other demons' screaming* THIS IS HOW YOU LEARNED TO TRUST PEOPLE?!
[Back at the rooftop, Vaggie makes a drill sergeant march.]
Vaggie: *drill sergeant style* There is nothing stronger than the trust between comrades in arms. Buckle up, buttercups, because today you boys become men!
[There is a loud explosion in the background, sending shockwaves that sways Vaggie's hair with a satisfying smile. Vaggie advances on Sir Pentious]
Vaggie: You, *picks up Sir Pentious*
Sir Pentious: Wait, wait! I can't fight without my minions-
Vaggie: Are gonna survive together!
[Vaggie throws Sir Pentious off the building before turning to Angel Dust]
Vaggie: And you, (Angel Dust: D-don't you even think about it-) are gonna make this hotel work!
(I love the implication that she’s taken what Lute would’ve taught her as her lieutenant in the military and trying to imitate her while running the training exercise)
Charlie: *grabs Vaggie's hand* No, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry I put pressure on you. We work as a team. I guess I just thought all this would be easier, but, we'll figure it out, together. I mean, look what your exercise did for them.
And running the hotel in S2:
Vaggie: Thanks for signing the guest book. [To herself] This is like being in the army.
But she’s not defined by that alone anymore, she’s grown to be more and to explore different sides of herself, and is a lot more confident and happy as a result. And if that’s possible for Vaggi, then it’s possible for Lute, too.
Vaggi and Lute use military terms in both their songs in S2 which you’ve pointed out:
Lute: I’ve still got a job to do my mission’s incomplete
Only a traitor could consider making peace
Vaggi: My hand, your hand, your body in mine, they can withstand the firing line
And going back to I Don’t Dance, the song is filled with overlapping baseball and dance terminology to convey the integration between the two different sides of sports and musical theatre, along with the progressive choreography of them dancing while playing baseball:
RYAN:
Slide home, you score, swingin on the dance floor
CHAD:
I don't dance, no
RYAN:
Lean back, tuck it in, take a chance
Swing it out, spin around, do the dance
CHAD:
I wanna play ball, not dance hall
I'm makin’ a triple, not a curtain call
And Ryan challenging Chad by pointing out that dancing isn’t inferior and doesn’t make you lesser just because it’s seen as queer/effeminate in being too expressive, and in fact makes you more, because you’re capable of more than the one thing you were told you could be and do:
RYAN:
I can prove it to you til you know it's true
'Cause I can swing it, I can bring it to the diamond too
In the same way Vaggi being more feminine and expressive in her appearance than when in the army, open about her sexuality and who she loves, as well as being a dancer, doesn’t make her weaker or any less capable of a fighter than Lute. It makes her more, because she’s grown outside the confines of what she was told she could be and do. Which comes up with her challenging Lute’s worldview in the S1 finale:
Vaggi: Seriously, you're pathetic, you know that? Ready to die rather than accepting mercy? No. Live. Live, knowing that you only do because I let you. The failure.
But we’re obviously not done with these two yet and their foiling in the series. I feel the natural climax of Vaggi’s arc is trying to teach Lute what she’s learned, as the girls are mirrors of one another. They cannot deny or kill each other, because to do that would be to kill part of themselves. So how do they reconcile? How can Vaggi teach Lute what she’s learned? My answer would be a dance lesson like the one Carmilla gives Vaggi. Like Ryan gives Chad. (I have some thoughts on how a reprise of Out for Love would go for Vaggi/Lute, but that’s gonna be in another post cos this is already getting out of hand for what is essentially a jokey rambling semi-serious analysis)
In conclusion, I’m predicting Vaggi and Lute having a homerotic dance fight, where a flustered and frustrated Lute keeps trying to fight Vaggi and a smug Vaggi keeps pulling her into a dance lesson instead, which ultimately is a tipping point for Lute finally coming to terms with her own bisexuality and realising she can be more than just a soldier (half joking/half serious prediction but it's fun to imagine)
that’s my silly fandom ramble I guess, hope you enjoyed! And thanks again for sending the ask!
I was thinking to comment through tags, but it was becoming rather long, so I used a reblog instead :') (synthesis ain't one of my talents).
Anyway, I have no regrets about the vagueness of the ask 'cause I would have never thought up this kind of question and I love your exploration of this. I also would have liked your other topics, but I'll admit I have yet to watch the Utena Movie (I just love the series too much <3). The Velvette/Lute thoughts also interest me a lot, 'cause they could connect with my season 1 thoughts about Velvette and Vaggi and I was just wondering if maybe the Heaven characters will get more focus in season 4 aka the supposedly Velvette's season on the Vees' side of things.
That said, going back to your post, I love both the idea of an Out For Love Reprise with Vaggi and Lute and the idea of Vaggi's fight with Lute turning into a dance lesson at one point. It also makes me wonder more about Heaven's Musical motif and how it could relate to Lute specifically. In any case, I think our disaster girl needs a dance lesson asap, I mean:
What exactly is this angry stomping Lute? :P (Meanwhile Vaggi beautifully dancing combining salsa and tango)
I also really appreciated the HSM exploration to be honest. I have watched the movies years ago and never thought about them too deeply. I had no idea about the Director's intentions about Ryan and how Disney went in the way (I mean the coding is pretty clear, but I never researched the whole story). The detail of the hat is also great. I also remember loving Ryan's evolution throughout the movie, he was my favorite so it is nice to have this analysis.
Finally, I love your point about Hellfire and Lute's repressed sexuality. When it comes to it, I can't help, but to think about Gravity because:
1- I think Sam Haft confirmed somewhere Hellfire was one of the inspirations for Gravity. They wanted to explore Lute's bigotry and white and black mentality, while keeping the religious element (hence the Gregorian chant). It is fun because I think they started with hellfire and then decided to make Lute's outburst a storm and to focus on the element of water in what is basically an inversion.
2-As you said, Hellfire is about Frollo's repressed sexuality. He is attracted to Esmeralda, but can't deal with these feelings because he sees them as impure. The end result is that he lashes out at Esmeralda and decides to burn her. I agree that Lute's outburst against Charlie and Vaggi may very well be about Lute's repressed sexual attraction to women. About this, when I watched the music video together with @hamliet for the first time, her first thoughts on the song were literally "oh, so Lute likes women" :'). She pointed out that Lute literally keeps stabbing yonic objects with pointed weapons throughout the whole first part of Gravity :''')
Moreover, considering the records are meant to call back Vaggi's eye, well... things start coming together.
In any case, your analysis was a treat, so I just wanted to show my appreciation and share thoughts! Have a great evening :)
The symbolism in the video is NOT subtle, and I know people are gonna say it's reaching, but it really isn't. Hazbin uses a ton of... Jungian/Freudian symbolism, both yonic and phallic, and this song's pretty sharp with it.
Lute is literally singing about Vaggi and Charlie's love, and the moment the below line begins:
Take the one you need, make you watch 'em bleed (Vindictus)
As she sings about making someone bleed (keep in mind that blood is also associated with female sexuality), we see Lute stab a knife (phallic object) into canvas, cutting some very yonic looking flaps while she sings the rest of these lines which are all about Vaggi and Charlie's lesbian love.
We also see her literally through these flaps, implying that maybe that's a lens through which we should view her character.
But that's not all. The lyrics continue:
Will you break thinkin' how you couldn't save her?
Wishin' you were there when they needed you
The only soul who's ever completed you
Maybe then, you'll get a little heated too
("Heated" is a verbal pun for being turned on, and that's the least symbolic of this part.)
As she sings these lyrics Lute turns away from the yonic symbolism and towards Adam's hallucination, which rises in front of her as she's adopted a begging posture. The problem is she's begging Adam herself, and then doesn't symbolically save him.
She actually symbolically kills him.
And understand why this is what I need to do
As she sings that, you see her atop Adam in a potentially sexual pose, stabbing him with the same phallic symbol (dagger). Penetration, adopting Niffty's role (which symbolically could comment on just how she knows, deep down, she was treated... like someone lowly; that might be reaching though). Except Lute stabs Adam in the heart, not the genitals. Maybe because... while she did love Adam, sexual attraction may or may not have been a part of it.
What she feels for him is desperation, rage, and love all at once. But thinking of the lesbians happy enrages her and she can't let that stand.
Have you ever heard people discussing the Boston Massacre? Do you want to learn more about that event and the actual "facts, [which] are stubborn things" (to quote one John Adams in his defense at the Boston Massacre trial) beyond the lore it's come to represent?
Do you want to do all of this while reading omegaverse MM romance with some hilarious historical side characters, a lot of angst, touching yet complex father-son relationships? Do you like your romance forbidden and secret?
Well then. Do I have the book for you, available on June 17th.
The book I edited now has its sequel, which is actually just 2/7 of the full set (all these works are standalones, though!)
“It’s not justice anyone wants! It’s vengeance! It matters nothing if you want justice when you’re the only one.”
Matthew Kilroy has never fit. Not in his home, where he was too big in a Quaker family that was already too big to feed. Not in the army he ran away to join, where he is desperate to be equal to his older comrades. Not in Boston, where the townspeople hate His Majesty’s soldiers.
Abijah Dawes is the most eligible omega in town. The only son of two only sons, he has a massive dowry, a Harvard education, and a clerkship under renowned lawyer John Adams. His only flaw, whispers Boston, is that he prefers raising objections to raising children.
Introduced by a snowball gone awry and united by a midnight robbery, Abijah finds himself drawn to the kindred spirit he senses in Matthew. While Matthew knows he is unsuitable for Abijah in every way, Abijah’s warmth convinces him that maybe, just maybe, he may finally belong at his side.
But when tensions erupt into gunfire, five people lie dead and dying on the cold streets. With Matthew imprisoned under the threat of a noose and Abijah desperate to spare his life, the secret affair that sustains them may also prove their undoing. Both must grapple with the limits of the law and love if they hope to create a life together… and if the mob and Matthew’s internal demons don’t steal everything first.
hi! I love your metas and utena is one of my favourite series so I'm so happy you got around to watching it! what are some of your favourites themes/characters from it? are you planning to make some other analysis posts about it? I'd love to hear some more of your thoughts on this wonderful anime!
Hi!
I would love to write more for the series. Feel free to send me asks about what you want me to cover. Asks are truly helpful to motivate analysis ahah. I will warn you that I am slow, so I may take a while before I answer :''')
Anyway, as for your questions.
Favorite themes
All of them honestly. I think RGU succeeds at basically everything it sets up to explore and it is to this day an incredibly powerful and original series for the way it tackles many difficult themes.
My three favorites are probably these:
1- You can't save people, but people save themselves. My favorite twist is that the Prince did not save Utena, but Utena saved herself. This idea is re-affirmed in the ending, when Utena can't save Anthy, but Anthy herself can. It is also something re-affirmed throughout the whole series. You can be helped (and frankly sometimes you need help), but overall you have to grow up and save yourself on your own. Something must click into you. This is why Akio who keeps on relying on others' pain to feel "big" will never grow up.
2- The way growing up is portrayed in general is great. Many times when characters grow up it is portrayed as a triumphant moment. However, RGU shows it for what it is: painful. Sure, Anthy's growth in the final scene is wonderful and inspiring and triumphant. However, Anthy is also a victim of horrid abuse that finally realizes she does not have to be. When it comes to other characters that come from (relatively) less traumatic childhoods the realization is harsh as hell. Like, Nanami grows up when she starts desperately crying and saying that she is just vermin. Utena grows up when she melancholy says she is not a prince. That is because there is pain in giving up on childhood dreams. Children are often a little narcissistic, after all. It is actually natural. However, to grow up means to realize you ain't that special. You are just a person, like others. This can be painful, but it is ultimately also healthy and freeing.
3- Victims. The way the series deals with abuse is JUST GREAT. It is probably one of the best depiction of the cycle of abuse ever. That is because it shows how abuse is often invisible. Akio has been literally manipulating and raping Anthy for years and nobody knows. All people see is that Anthy is SO gloomy and weird, oh my god! Nobody stops to investigate why she is this way. When Nanami and Utena finally see Akio raping Anthy it ultimately changes nothing for Anthy. That is because both Nanami and Utena are lonely kids themselves. They do not have the instruments to fully understand what is going on. They do not have trusty adults they can report Akio to. I think Nanami seeing the whole thing and being traumatized and unable to properly understand it or address it is one of the most powerful scenes of the series. And I love that once Utena sees the same thing she basically reacts just like Nanami. After all, the point is that Utena is a kid too. Akio is in general a WONDERFUL depiction of an abuser. The way he is charming and liked and rapes Utena, but Utena herself does not even understand what is happening. Like, the dude is literally introduced doing sexual activities with a student, but he acts so normal about it Utena immediately normalizes it. After all, Kanae is his fiancee, so it is normal for them to be intimate, right? Ugh. Another great thing is the deconstruction of "good victim" and "bad victim". Anthy and Touga start as the good victim and bad victim only for later on to be revealed they were both accomplices of Akio. They both spend time in the rose garden "grooming roses" (aka manipulating the other kids in the cycle). And yet, they are both shown empathy and both of them are saved. I also personally find heart-breaking the depiction of characters like Utena and Saionji who love Anthy and Touga deeply to the point they re-enter the cycle and put themselves in danger to protect their loved ones. There is something beautiful and heartbreaking about a vulnerable and scared kid being brave for another vulnerable and scared kid.
Favorite Characters
The order keeps on changing, so have them in no particular order.
These two queens. Utena and Anthy are both great because of the deconstruction they go through in the final arc of the anime. Utena starts as the badass prince and Anthy as the victimized poor princess. The final arc shows how much more complex they are.
Utena is not a badass hero, but a groomed victim, which is being manipulated by an adult and by the girl she clearly has feelings for. She is a kid, so she is superficial and naive and struggles to understand others. She sees the world through a simplistic lens. And yet, she never loses her drive nor the desire to help others and this leaves a huge impact on the people around her. The coronation of her arc being her realization she herself has been "using" Anthy to an extent to feel "good" and "noble" is great, as it is her still wanting to help Anthy, despite Anthy's betrayal.
Anthy is a victim, but she is not a helpless princess. She is a girl turned into a witch and forced to do horrible crimes. Everyone mistreats Anthy and Anthy lashes out at everyone. She manipulates all the other kids into Akio's trap, poisons people and plays the part of the princess even if she knows the only person she truly cares about will end up in her same nightmare. Finally, she stabs Utena who has been fighting for her the whole time in the back. And yet, the story tells us she does not deserve abuse. She does not deserve all the pain, she is a victim, she needs help. And at the same time she is her own person and she can save herself.
These two idiots. I have a HUGE soft spot for Saionji and Touga, as disastrous as they are. I love that they are introduced as these two big assholes only to be revealed as two kids, whose desire to be heroes and to help others has been hijacked and twisted by an abuser.
Touga is heartbreaking and another great representation of a bad victim. He is being groomed by Akio to become like him. At the very beginning of the story he is sure he is bound to become like Akio. So, he manipulates and pushes Saionji away. At the same time, he makes use of Nanami's feelings for him in his schemes. He lashes out against his loved ones so badly and... in the end his loved ones still love him deeply. Saionji and Nanami both understand what Touga has been going through to an extent and choose to stay by his side. I love their little trio at the end.
Saionji is great because he is genuinely unbearable when he tries to play "the part of the big bad man". And yet, once he drops the mask he is revealed as very sensitive, childish and sweet. He is able to read through Touga perfectly by the end and chooses to support him, even if it is dangerous. Their relationship warms my heart. Moreover, I love toxic masculine characters that have to integrate their feminine part.
NANAMI IS MY SPECIAL LITTLE GIRL! I genuinely adore her and I have had a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE SOFT SPOT for her since the very beginning (just ask @hamliet :P). She is just kid Regina George, how can I hate her? She is very similar to Cordelia in Buffy in how she is an alpha bitch, but the narrative turns her into a butt-monkey, so she is impossible to dislike.
Anyway, I love very childish characters that by the end become wiser than everyone else. Nanami checks. She starts as Touga's annoying little sister and ends the story as her own person. I love how the series explores her bond with Touga and how she is building her identity on his. I love how it is shown their bond is 100% platonic and how her obsession for her brother stemmed from childishness. I really see Nanami as the 3rd main character tbh (not counting Akio as a MC, but as a villain). She is the only character who completes her growth outside of Anthy and Utena, after all. Moreover, she receives more individual episodes than everyone else. Overall she is just very very complex and I adore characters that are flawed in a not sanitized way and get to face their ugly flaws and overcome them. Plus, let's be real... the girl HAS STYLE... ALL HER CLOTHES ARE 100%. Honestly, if I were to write an individual analysis, I think she is the character I would love to go and make a deep dive into.
Thank you for the ask!
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