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[iamphobephobic]

@lotyba

"For example, transgender girls, just like cisgender girls, preferred to be friends with other girls and they tended to prefer toys and foods that other girls liked."

Is that really internalized sexism?

[midwifepilled]

“trans exclusionary radical feminist” but nobody is excluding trans identified males, it’s simply that males .. being males .. and doing male stuff has literally nothing to do with feminism … you simply have no place here …

there is nothing needed from males here and there is nothing here we can exclude you from since your participation was and never will be necessary ….

we aren’t excluding you, our ideology has always aimed to keep you out intrinsically! it is only when you demand entry we are viewed as “exclusive” for reiterating we actually never needed or wanted you here.

[iamphobephobic5]

Feminism is a movement for gender equality. It’s a movement for women’s oppression. Trans women are oppressed, harrassed, assaulted, and more. Why can’t you see any reason for sympathy?

[plgsvyer]

What logic or sympathy would there be in asking a group organized to help one political cause to instead split their focus, because you've decided that their entire reason for existing isn't a good enough reason for you on its own? That's not very sympathetic of you. In fact it's entitled, demanding, cruel, and is actually on the big list of the Rules of Misogyny. It's rule 5. Rule 3 too.

What makes it this group's job to do that? Especially since this additional job you want them to do for you would include opposite purposes to their own? Women fought for separate facilities for safety and separate groups in order to organize, and trans women organize, protest, and assault women in order to undo those gains. You are literally protesting women's right to separate organizing in this literal conversation. Clearly, there would be no logic in feminists working against their own aims.

[iamphobephobic5]

What logic or sympathy would there be in asking a group organized to help one political cause to instead split their focus, because you’ve decided that their entire reason for existing isn’t a good enough reason for you on its own?

I didn’t want to say this initially because I know how you will react, but trans women are women and their issues are women’s issues too. They deal with similar harrassment over being inferior to men and have similar high levels of sexual abuse. I believe these issues are interconnected, so that’s why I believe transphobia falls under the cause of feminism. We get rid of all bigotry, or none at all.

It’s rule 5.

Asking to address another issue is not me distracting from other issues. Addressing rape does not distract from the wage gap.

Rule 3 too.

I never said or implied this. I asked for sympathy. 

Women fought for separate facilities for safety and separate groups in order to organize, and trans women organize, protest, and assault women in order to undo those gains.

If black women are turned away from women’s facilities, then they have a right to protest. To me, trans women have that same right. 

You are literally protesting women’s right to separate organizing in this literal conversation.

Because trans women are women, that wouldn’t go against women’s right to separate facilities.

[lotyba]

Yours is a linguistic argument, not one based on describing reality. Some men have a psychological desire to be women or be seen as women. You have decided to call these men women. That is obviously inaccurate unless you are redefining women, which women have not agreed to. Which is rule 8. You have also given no reason for doing such a thing.

They are still adult human males, not adult human females. You are aware of this. They still have a statistically much, much higher level of strength and statistically much, much higher propensity for violence than women, which is the reason women have separate spaces to begin with. Hrt doesn't change that, and there is no requirement for a man to be medicating in order for him to call himself transgender anyway.

You may not think sex or sex-based rights matter, but that is why men who agree with you have no place in organizing to defend those spaces and rights, and they don't want to either. They are actively dismantling them.

Any space where a man can self identify in immediately becomes a mixed sex space. That means there are no separate facilities. Both are open to any men. You are also aware of this. It's quite obvious. In many places the women's room has become an 'All Gender' bathroom because of these men. So yes, this means they have single-handedly removed these women's spaces. They have put men who have committed sex crimes against women and who have brutally murdered women into locked jail cells with women. Statistically the amount of women who commit violent/sex crimes is negligible. So these men have put much stronger, much more horrifically violent men into prisons with women serving time for fraud or theft or prostitution. That is a circumstance that is literally a war crime.

A black woman is not a man. This is also obvious, so the only reason you would claim a black woman's exclusion is like excluding a man from a space for women is some kind of horrific racism that you need to fucking deal with... No woman entering a woman's space makes it a mixed sex space. You know what human sexes are, and yes all males always and everywhere are still male no matter what they think or say. Any other suggestion is absurd. 0 cannot equal 1.

And NO, men do not have the right to *assault* women because they don't want women to have sex specific spaces and sex-based rights for safety. That seems like feminism to you? You literally think feminism is beating women in the streets...?? I can't even.

Putting women in statistically higher danger of rape or murder is not working for women's rights. It is actively dismantling them. Assaulting women in an effort to end sex-based spaces that women have for safety is not feminism. You are at cross purposes with feminism. You are literally pro-assaulting women according to your last post.

So no, feminism is not for men who assault women. You've proven you are not interested in women's rights or safety.

[iamphobephobic5]

That is obviously inaccurate unless you are redefining women, which women have not agreed to. 

You don’t represent all women. Plenty of women exist who support trans women. 

Besides, many cultures have allowed trans people to exist in the past. So I believe re-introducing would be a more accurate label.

You have also given no reason for doing such a thing.

The reason is that these identities are very similar to sexuality. They are deeply ingrained and cannot be changed (source 1, source 2). And most importantly, being forced to repress these identities leads to a high suicide rate, which is reduced in welcoming environments. Human lives are the reason. (source 1, source 2, source 3)

They still have a statistically much, much higher level of strength and statistically much, much higher propensity for violence than women, which is the reason women have separate spaces to begin with.

There is no evidence that suggests men are trying to larp as trans in order to harrass women. “This study provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not empirically grounded” (Source)

In many places the women’s room has become an ‘All Gender’ bathroom because of these men.

Provide a source please. I cannot believe that buildings are converting only women’s bathrooms into All Gender bathrooms and leaving men’s bathrooms alone en masse without actual statistical evidence.

They have put men who have committed sex crimes against women and who have brutally murdered women into locked jail cells with women.

I won’t deny that the decision to move some of the trans criminals presents a danger to women. That does present a problem. However, this isn’t the black and white issue you think it is. Not all trans inmates are the exceptionally violent criminals that make the headlines. They don’t pose the same threat to women. 

But more importantly, their lives are in danger if they are kept in all-male prisons. One trans woman was raped 14 times by both inmates and staff. (Source 1, Source 2)

A black woman is not a man

The reason why I made this comparison is to show why I think you are being unfair. I’m saying that denying a black woman access women’s spaces is a terrible thing. How is that racist?

And NO, men do not have the right to *assault* women because they don’t want women to have sex specific spaces and sex-based rights for safety

I don’t condone assault.

Is it too much to ask that you don’t assume I’m an emotionless monster who has no regard for women’s safety? I want to have a productive conversation about this, but it seems like you are taking every opportunity to reconfigure my arguments in the worst ways. I’m just trying to do my best.

[lotyba]

So your reason why men who want to be women are in fact women is because 1) they feel they want to be women over a long period of time more or less consistently (which is debatable at best) and 2) because they will kill themselves if other people don't redefine half of the human race for them?

How would either of those prove that they are women? Neither of those points is a characteristic of being a woman.

[iamphobephobic]

In this source, they tested a gender association test on a group of trans kids and a group of cis kids. 

“Overall, data from the various measures indicated that transgender children’s responses were indistinguishable from those of two groups of cisgender children.”

This proves that gender identity is a trait that develops in both cis and trans people. In other words, it is a characteristic shared by trans women and cis women.