Thoughts About Batman: Telltale

This is a blog to put all my thoughts, interpretations, and dissections of the characters of the Telltale Batman universe through a canonical lense.

[johndoediaries]

Hey, you can call me Jay. I have an extreme interest in the Joker and I've been studying his character, habits, and portrayals for around two decades.

I love almost any iteration, but the Telltale games reignited a passion for analysis and I wanted a place to get down my thoughts, observations of the characters, people's response to them, and my opinions.

If you want, you can always shoot me a question and I'd be happy to answer it, even if it doesn't relate to Telltale specifically.

[johndoediaries]

John can blush.

He does not have some sort of weird issue where he can't.

He was joking.

"I'd blush if I could" is a standard stock phrase that someone uses while flustered or flattered.

Please do not believe that everything a character says no matter why or how is actually canon. People can joke, and people can lie.

[johndoediaries]

hello, I read a lot of your posts and find them very interesting. Especially about Bruce, the way he acts towards John.

Did Bruce ever care about John wellbeing? Like is there in the game a time when he starts to care? Or does he until the end use John when pretending to help him?

He manipulates John, use him during the whole game and when John confront him he can either lie again or admit that he was using him. Even after that you can either believe him or not about the encounter with the agency.

Telling him you see him as a friend is the player choice or Bruce's?

I'm sorry if that's not very comprehensive, it's just that I played the game and after reading your posts, I do agree but then I'm conflicted, for me Bruce did manipulate and use John, he admits it but after that it's like he seems to care about John.

Sorry again 😖

I think it's a mix of both. It is technically player choice, everything is. But I think those choices are still based on Bruce's feelings. Bruce is feeling every option there, it's just the player's decision which he focuses on. When it comes to Bruce seeing John as a friend at the end, I believe he is telling the truth, if the player has him say so. Bruce starts treating John as less of a usable peice after the funhouse, either way, and it seems like it's at that point he sees him as an equal instead of a tool, because he has no more he really needs from him. He's able to see John as a person, and he most likely does grow attatched to him. It's less that "Bruce thinks about John how the player chooses" and more that "the player chooses which thought to focus on and move forward with." By the time the game ends, Bruce seems to have no true alterior motives, in either route. It's not about the city, it's about him and John.

Bruce wouldn't be lying if he said they weren't "really friends" because they weren't. They were still basic strangers. But when the player has Bruce say he is a friend, that becomes a larger truth. When he visits after everything in the good ending, it's person to person, friend to friend. He decided to see John as a friend, and that's perhaps more important and telling of how he sees him than him feeling as if he was all along.

[johndoediaries]

Harley's feelings for John are complex. It isn't that she doesn't love John, exactly, it's that Harley doesn't want to love someone who will let her down.

As he was in the first four episodes, John was not confident. He was very unsure of himself and had a habit of running away when faced with danger or discomfort. That isn't behavior that Harley wanted a partner to have. But she still saw that he had potential to be that way. She doesn't seem the sort to put all that effort into guiding him if he wasn't worth it, to her, whether she liked him as he currently was or not.

It's only in the villain route on the bridge that she lets herself fall for him, because John took control. He was confident, he was sure of himself, he was standing there with guns pointed at him. And he wasn't scared.

In that moment, he was "someone you want around. When your back's against the wall." And as she says, she "always knew he'd do great things."

[johndoediaries]

I was reading through John’s wiki and there’s mentions of him relying on pain medication citing the stock pile of pills on his bedside table and I’ve seen mentions (comments) of John having a potential drug addiction/abusing medication. Do you have any thoughts on this? I’d appreciate your thoughts on this one.

I think the wiki is extremely biased and isn't a great source of information due to that, personally. There is zero indication that John has any sort of drug problem, he never mentions them, he never uses them on screen, and doesn't do anything to indicate that he does.

I've gotten very close looks at the bottle, because I was also curious about it before. Its label is partially cut off due to angle, but from what I know about pain medication, it's Oxycodone. It is a narcotic. It is supposed to be prescribed. I doubt John has the necessary government identification to get that, especially with no money. The other bottle is just peroxide.

I do assume he got the narcotics illegally. But, it's right beside his other first aid supplies. He doesn't just have pain pills, he has medical gauze and bandages there. It's very obviously just strong medication to help with pain. If he was addicted, it's his own "home" and he wouldn't necessarily place it with his first aid supplies, and I'm sure he would have way more than one bottle if he was using them regularly. I'm also decently sure if he was consistently on pain medication, John would not be shown drinking so much. Doing that will absolutely destroy your body, and I doubt John is stupid. He is shown going for alcohol when upset. If he had sedatives or muscle relaxers, and had no problem using them recreationally, he would most likely do that instead. But he didn't. He got drunk. I honestly think it's very, very strange to assume he has an addiction to pills just because he has a bottle of them. Not everything has to be an extreme.

[johndoediaries]

Harley trusts John more than she trusts anyone else, and John knows that. She doesn't treat him particularly well, but he has good reason to think that there's a chance for them.

John isn't just her personal driver, John is the one who kept ahold of Harley's laptop for her, before she took over the group herself due to the issue of lack of trust among the henchmen. She probably only took it from John because his house was unprotected.

She most likely put it in her safe, and John knew he could get it for Bruce very easily, not just because he's been trusted with it before, but because John knows the code to Harley's safe too, something everyone is aware of.

She trusts John himself implicitly, it's his relationship with Bruce that she doesn't. Because it feels like Bruce is taking John away from her, and he's gotten John to be more bold about not listening to what she wants.

[johndoediaries]

John had badly hurt a lot of people even before he became the Joker. He beats up Bruce's assaulters in the first game, along with easily cutting someone just to get what he wants.

In Harley's office when interrogating Bruce, he implies that Harley has coached him on how to torture people. She hands him the gun like she'd done it before, and after the failed raid he says it always surprises him how heavy they are.

John is very proficient with firearms, and he has absolutely shot people before he shot those agents. It's likely that a lot of the people he helped torture died, whether he ended them himself or not.

[johndoediaries]

John thinks his life is sad. He knows that people pity him, and even make fun of him. He sees himself as someone who is easily discarded by others.

His instance on being called "Joker" at the end isn't about the name. It's that he sees "Joker" as being capable and in control, and he doesn't want to be reminded about "John Doe" because to him, he thought he was pathetic and he didn't want to be seen that way. To him, if he was seen as John, he was pitiable by default, just a mentally ill man who couldn't control himself.

"Joker" isn't his true self, or his real being, or anything else he could say. It's an attempt to escape from his own life and have the one that he wants to have, one people didn't think John could be capable of.

And from his own view of himself, one he didn't fully think he could be capable of either. Most likely from the start. John's irrational dismissal of himself and his issues as not his own issues anymore is telling.

He still has the same issues, and they still cause him problems and effect him, but he refuses to admit it because he wants to be in control of himself and his image so badly.

[johndoediaries]

An unused voice line that's of particular interest to me is Harley implying that John knows Bruce is very aware of him and acts how he does to manipulate Bruce into giving him more attention, which is known, but the phrase she uses is oddly sexual. She has a tendency to imply that Bruce is attracted to him in some way that is shown at least once in the game, and it's interesting that they still show that here, but decided that this was too far.

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"By the short and curlies" is a phrase to mean to have power over someone, but with Harley saying it, and the statement of Bruce having a "man crush" on him before, they might have decided to dial it back.

[johndoediaries]

In a previous post about John instinctively hiding himself when he feels trapped, you said that he had mentioned Arkam staff not approving excitement?

I would love to know when/where that dialog exchange happened!

:D

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I'm going to be honest, this has gotten me confuddled. I've scoured all the pictures and video I have, and I know for certain that he was talking to Bruce, but I can't seem to find the exact timestamp he does so. It's fully possible in this case that it's one of the lines that were cut from the game, as I regularly go through the files for background information. Though, I do hope that the voice clip I have of him saying so will suffice!

[5-7-9]

adrenaline in emotions like lust or joy or fear or passion are always seemed “crazy” or “manic”

People really hate all forms of adrenaline sometimes. It freaks them out for some reason

[johndoediaries]

Adrenaline is more likely to make someone behave differently or lash out, no matter the emotion, because it's such a flood to the senses. It's also a lot harder to control, and in a place like Arkham, excitement of the patients can trigger a physical or emotional response they don't feel they can control the outcome of.

When John gets excited, for example, he can start to laugh very loudly, especially at things he shouldn't, which then causes upset among the other patients. And so whether it's a positive experience for him or not, it's tamped down to make him less of an "issue."

It's a major problem in institutions like that because a lot of the time it means that the patients have no full emotional outlets, and John seems to be very heavily repressing himself as a result of this being pounded into him.

He talks about his own extreme emotions and desires as "someone else" that he feels instead of behaving how he does naturally, which he by default tries to hold back. He was basically trained not to "rock the boat", despite the fact he's a natural boat rocker, so he tries to stir shit up in small ways that he can't be blamed or punished for. It's no wonder he bursts.

[johndoediaries]

John has a lot of self esteem issues, and his unstable self image is reflective of that. John really wants to be the paid attention to, and to be seen as important, but most of the time he's too nervous to get there because almost all attention that's been on him in the past has been negative.

It's why he's so willing to let Bruce treat him how he does, he's getting Bruce's attention, and that attention, positive or negative, is what starts making him feel more sure of himself. Bruce is someone who isn't a doctor who seems to be actually listening to him, even when Harley dismisses his thoughts and feelings. He mentions that he didn't trust Harley or the raid plan at all, and he was thinking about ruining it himself because then potentially Harley wouldn't get what she wants and just drop him. It's extremely indicative that he doesn't see himself in a positive light, and he seems to have a desperate need to be "worth" something.

And if he can't find a way to be, he would rather be hated and seen than ignored.

[johndoediaries]

In a previous post about John instinctively hiding himself when he feels trapped, you said that he had mentioned Arkam staff not approving excitement?

I would love to know when/where that dialog exchange happened!

:D

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I'm going to be honest, this has gotten me confuddled. I've scoured all the pictures and video I have, and I know for certain that he was talking to Bruce, but I can't seem to find the exact timestamp he does so. It's fully possible in this case that it's one of the lines that were cut from the game, as I regularly go through the files for background information. Though, I do hope that the voice clip I have of him saying so will suffice!

[johndoediaries]

If you ever want to know why I think something, or where I got an idea, just let me know, and I can point out where and when John did or said something.

I have documented and screenshot almost everything John has ever said or done in multiple routes of the game. Obsessive hobby of mine.

[johndoediaries]

John does not feel ashamed of himself for things. He would do something fucked up multiple times with no regret, as long as he gets the outcome he wants.

Killing is not a negative to him. He doesn't care. He would do it again, and whether he became the Joker or not he would most likely do it in the future. In the funhouse, he didn't break down because he hurt people. He broke down because he knew that Bruce wouldn't be happy, and he was upset that he would have to deal with the consequences.

[johndoediaries]

When he feels vulnerable, John instinctively hides. John is violent, willingly so, but when he's unsure of himself he's also known to try to evade and avoid problems he doesn't want to face. He often runs away in order to get out of situations, and if he feels stuck in it, he turns his back and folds in on himself in an attempt to block it out.

It's such an obvious protective measure, and it makes me wonder if it's related to the fact that he mentions Arkham not approving of "excitement". It's a method to both contain and shield himself.

[johndoediaries]

John doesn't behave differently between the two games. He isn't out of character, and the tendencies he portrayed while in Arkham are the same ones he shows outside it. I've seen people dismiss the fact that John acted violently, selfishly, and rudely as him not being "polished" yet. The things he did there are canonically confirmed to have happened in the second game. He still has the key he used to fuck with Bruce. It's the one that Bruce has to grab in the villain route.

John thinks that it's fun to mess with people. He is excited when things lead to violence. He expects Bruce to be frustrated with the key doing nothing. He specifically gets Willy to shit on Bruce without Willy knowing just to potentially upset him and cause a problem. John acts nice a lot of the time, but he's a dick of a guy.

[johndoediaries]

John isn't the LaCroix of Jokers. He isn't "The Joker but it's morally alright to like him because he didn't do all that." He did a lot. John is unstable, violent, heavily delusional, and has awful anger issues.

In the villain route some of the things he's done are:

Placed bombs in multiple places including a hospital and a church.

Surgically inserts a deadly object into someone's stomach.

Shoots someone in the head for doing something that displeases him.

Tortures and kills multiple people in some sort of saw trap as a test to putting Bruce in it.

Makes a man crawl through a tunnel full of broken glass.

In the vigilante route, even, he:

Blows up the police headquarters and injures and kills multiple innocent people without care while fleeing the scene.

Kidnaps and holds someone hostage over a grudge.

Knives someone through the jaw.

Slits someone's throat and dumps them in acid.

Repeatedly and forcefully stabs someone multiple times in two different situations.

In either case, no matter what route you go down, it's heavily displayed he's capable of all of that at any moment. John can and does hurt a lot of people, and acting like he's not as violent as the Joker in other media because the game has less time to showcase his tendencies is so strange to me.

Because it's so obvious he's capable of so much worse than even what was shown.