Because This Time I Have You

[dutchdread]

Did barret mean Aerith when he told Cloud to confess to the person he likes? He told Cloud to do it before it is to late and considering Aerith is the one who dies does that mean that Barret thinks Cloud has feelings for aerith?

Barret doesn't know who Cloud likes. I'll state upfront that my answer here will be conjecture, it's not like there has been a mountain of content talking about how Barret views Clouds love life, so this will be my interpretation, but it is informed interpretation. Cloud is putting up a fake persona, we know this, Aerith knows there's something wrong, Tifa knows there is something wrong, but as far as Barret knows Cloud is just a typical dude who may be presenting himself as more of a hard-ass than he really is, but is still representing himself fairly honestly. He has some weird psychosis, sure, but no reason to believe he has an alien parasite rewiring his brain. We all wear masks to some degree, and as far as Barret knows Clouds seeming callous nature towards both girls at times is just that. The lifestream sequence reveals how important Tifa is to Cloud. Tifa didn't know that, the audience didn't know that, and Barret most definitely doesn't know that. We as players have the inside scoop concerning Cloud, we know why he does what he does, we know why Aerith does what Aerith does. Barret does not. He just sees Aerith flirting with Cloud and him slowly warming up to her. He doesn't see some of the 1-on-1 conversations, he doesn't know the history between him and Tifa, he doesn't know what's going on inside Clouds head when Aerith flirts with him vs when he's with Tifa.

I think Barret is pretty sure Cloud likes Tifa, and based on Aerith and Cloud simply growing closer and the visual cues of her living out her "one wish" with him he might reasonable think "there is a chance he likes her too". It's not unreasonable for an outsider to think Cloud - who is known for pretending to be colder than he really is - likes Aerith more than he's letting on, which is why most first time players think the same. It's only unreasonable for someone who knows the entire story. So the question becomes what the point is of Barrets conversation narratively. Why did the developers include him saying that. Well for one it's drama ofcourse, people love romance drama, but it also serves as foreshadowing, though not in the way Cleriths might want. He's advising Cloud to confess to whomever he likes. The question of WHO he likes is left intentionally vague at this point. Not because it's players choice, but because this plot point is resolved during the lifestream sequence. The lifestream sequence is the scene that provides the insight into Clouds psyche that makes these scenes retroactively so poignant. Barret treats it like it's a question, but Clouds stoic face hides a resolve for a single girl that has occupied his heart since childhood. This scene is one of many with essentially the same function. When Yuffie asks Cloud if he used to have a crush on Tifa and he says he doesn't remember, when Cloud thinks back on his mother telling him to settle down, they all serve the same function, to allow the viewer to go back on a second playthrough and - through a renewed understanding of Clouds psyche - experience that warm feeling of realization that behind the mask, Clouds mind is focused on one thing only. Tifa

[timkongart]

Tifa lockhart fanart! Big fan of OG ff7 when I was a kid, really enjoyed the remake series despite the bloat. It was like reliving that moment again many moons ago. Ive been making some fanart of the seris since. Here's one of Tifa, really wanted to embody her outward strength in this piece. Below are some some sketches and early wips, the initial doodle can look quite jank and somewhat ugly, but the gesture is what counts.. at least that what i tell myself :D.

[starlight-samurai]

Can you  h e a r  my  v o i c e? Hear it calling your  n a m e, hear it calling your  h e a r t (x)

[enigmaphenomenon]

The “Tifa lied to Cloud so she’s horrible” shit is getting so old. 

1. Tifa didn’t know Cloud was at Nibelheim during the burning. 

2. Cloud had memories of the Nibelheim burning which confused Tifa because she thought he wasn’t there. 

3. There was all this talk about Cloud being a puppet and not being the same Cloud that Tifa lived next door too. 

4. Tifa’s intentions have been called an act of kindness by SE and her reasons for not talking were “out of goodwill” 

5. If Tifa had a perfect memory and told this Cloud who was accurately reciting incidents that happened in Nibelheim that he was never in Nibelheim what would that have accomplished? He either wouldn’t have believed her or it would have caused his mental breakdown to happen sooner. 

6. If the truth had come out sooner, Cloud would have just surrendered himself over to Sephiroth sooner. 

7. Cloud himself says that he was able to continue on because of Tifa’s support. 

8. The context of the story and Tifa’s motivation is completely removed and simplified into “THE BITCH LIED!!!!!!!” without taking into account the narrative or context in a shallow attempt to paint Tifa as a manipulative liar to fill an even shallower hatred of her (Fucking fight me.) 

9. Let’s remove all context and narrative and bring up how Cloud lied to everyone in the game, and that Aerith also lied. Let’s completely remove the context and hate them because “THEY LIED!!!!!!” Oh, it doesn’t work like that? You mean there’s context? You mean it’s unfair to hate these characters for lying because of extenuating circumstances that were taking place? 

10. Shit that has been said about Tifa’s actions: 

The reason for Tifa’s kindness While subtle, Tifa is attentive towards Cloud, asking if he fought with Barret and offering him a drink. Behind this seems to be a desire to ascertain Cloud’s condition, as he has been somewhat odd since they were reunited. These feelings are revealed during Tifa’s monologue before she wakes up in the Shinra Junon office, which was added for the International version.-FF7 Ultimania Omega, pg. 70

Tifa’s flashback The flashback seen before Tifa wakes up was added to the International version.

Cloud says that it has been 5 years since they last met when it should be 7, and while saying he was involved in the Nibelheim incident, he has an understanding of it that clashes with reality. Here we learn that Tifa has felt something wasn’t right with him ever since they met again, and has been dealing with him while she holds back her worries. Also, the reason Cloud was suffering from mako poisoning when Tifa met him again was due to being overexposed to mako during Hojo’s Sephiroth Copy experiments in the Shinra Manor. -FF7 Ultimania Omega, pg. 170

She was reunited with Cloud during one of AVALANCHE’s activities, and invited him to join the organization in order to watch over him after finding many strange aspects in his speech and behavior. -FF7 10th AU, Tifa’s profile.

Out of goodwill for Cloud, she didn’t voice out her personal thoughts. There, her suspicions about Cloud, whose strange speech and conduct conflicted with facts from the past, also … . -FF7 10th AU, Tifa’s profile.

11. Shit Tifa said from the actual game in 1997: 

Tifa: Actually, it’s been seven years. You got your wish and joined SOLDIER, quit after the Sephiroth incident, and now you’re a mercenary… You told me a lot about what happened after you left Nibelheim… But… …Something’s wrong. I felt there was something strange about the things you talked about. All the things you didn’t know that you should, And other things you shouldn’t know that you did… I wanted to make sure… But then I heard… you were going far away… And I didn’t want that… ...I didn’t know what to do. So, I thought I needed more time. And that’s why I told you about the AVALANCHE job. I wanted to be with you, watch you.

12. Shit Cloud said from the actual game in 1997: 

Cloud: Why are you so scared? Don’t worry about me. I’m all right. No matter how confused I am, I’ll never believe a word that Sephiroth says. It’s true that sometimes I can’t figure out who I am. There’s a lot of things muddled up in my memories. But, Tifa…… But you said, ‘Long time no see, Cloud’ right? Those words will always support me. I am the one you grew up with. I’m Cloud of Nibelheim. No matter how much I lose faith in myself, that is the truth. That’s why you shouldn’t be so scared. No matter what anyone else says to me, it’s your attitude that counts…

13. Shit Sephiroth said in the game: 

Sephiroth: Five years ago you were… …constructed by Hojo, piece by piece, right after Nibelheim was burnt. A puppet made up of vibrant Jenova cells, her knowledge, and the power of Mako. An incomplete Sephiroth-clone. Not even given a number. …That is your reality.

Sephiroth: Cloud… Don’t blame Tifa. The ability to change one’s looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa’s memories, creating you. Out of Tifa’s memory…… A boy named Cloud might’ve just been a part of them.

14. What happened to Cloud after this: 

Hojo: Ha, ha, ha… this is perfect!!! It means that my experiment was a complete success. What number were you? Huh? Where is your tattoo?

Cloud: Professor Hojo… I don’t have a number. You didn’t give me one because you said I was a failed experiment.

Hojo: What the–? You mean only a failure made it here?

Cloud: Professor… please give me a number. Please, Professor…

Hojo: Shut up, miserable failure…

15: According to Tifa, Cloud was never in Nibelheim during the burning and has no way to verify that this Cloud she’s interacting with is her childhood friend, who recalls the Nibelheim incident despite not being there. She has no way to know if he’s the Cloud she knows from childhood or if he is what Sephiroth says he is. A clone built in a lab with a name of a boy who “might have existed in Nibelheim” 

So the logical thing to do is go “Hey Cloud, you were never in Nibelheim 5 years ago.” as early as possible right? That’s the most logical and practical thing to do, nothing bad would have happened, right?

16. Cloud is the real Cloud from Nibelheim, and WAS actually there during the burning and actually DID witness the massacre. Tifa telling Cloud he was never there would have accomplished nothing but crumbling Cloud’s psyche sooner. 

17. The lifestream scene in the game involves Cloud and Tifa AND the player uncovering the truth of what REALLY happened and that Cloud IS the Cloud from Nibelheim and not a puppet built in a lab like Sephiroth said. 

18. Cloud regains his true self, thanks to Tifa and can rest easy knowing that he is not something created in a lab and is actually a real human being. 

VII - The night before the final battle Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.-FF 20th AU, pg. 394

19. If your response is “BUT TIFA LIED!” you either did not play the game, do not understand the story, or want to nitpick Tifa’s character as to why she should be hated and this is the best you can come up with. 

20. If anyone reblogs this with some longwinded bullshit as to why Tifa is a liar or why she’s horrible, congratulations you will be arguing with yourself. (You should probably acknowledge Cloud and Aerith as “liars” as well, but I know that won’t happen as this is a shallow attempt to shit on Tifa’s character so other characters are naturally exempt from the same standards) 

[marlenadia]

Nibelheim Flashback

Credit: @marlenadia

[cammiegoodes]

[worldformula]

what if i never see you again?

[dee3312t]

Warm up

[tifa-simp]

Tifa's trial and Nibelheim flashback

As the title suggests, here are some similarities between the Nibelheim flashback in Kalm and Tifa's trial that I noticed

Both have the reunion flower in exactly the same place.

The Nibelheim flashback in Nibelheim is heavily altered by Jenova, but it's not perfect. Hence why we have one of the infantry has the same dialogue as Zack and later Jenova justifies it by making Cloud misremembers the lost infantry guy as Zack. Jenova will do anything in it power to keep Cloud believing he was SOLDIER in the Nibelheim mission.

But the reunion flower is a different story. It doesn't belong to that memory, it doesn't even exist in Nibelheim, Jenova has no reason to slip it in Cloud's fake story. And once again it appears in Nibeheim, this time in a different kind of illusion: Tifa's trial created by the Temple of Ancient. I actually have some theory about Tifa's trial here where I talk about the possibility of Tifa's trial and Cloud's trial were switched by Sephiroth and her trial is completely made-up by Jenova . But you can also read another wonderful analysis by somebodys-nightmare here. Basically, there's another theory that real Cloud soul is hiding somewhere in Tifa's subconscious from Sephiroth. Could the flower be the bread crumb real Cloud leaves for himself and Tifa to guide them to the right path? Or could it be Jenova's hint that it's started to invade Tifa's mind?

Onto the next point

2. Two Tifa and two Cloud.

Technically speaking, Nibelheim flashback has 2 Cloud and Tifa's trial has 2 Tifa interacting with each other. Aerith's trial also has a younger Aerith but her old and young versions can't interact with each other. SOLDIER Cloud can talk and touch infantry Cloud and young Tifa can acknowledge the real Tifa. Isn't it interesting how in both the memory and the trial, Tifa is the only "real" person? SOLDIER Cloud, infantry Cloud, kid Cloud and kid Tifa are all fake to a degree.

3. The static

Both Cloud and Tifa experience static when they witness the village burns. Cloud having headache is nothing new, But Tifa only experiences this kind of vision only recently, to be more precise, only after the Gongaga accident- a heavily staged scheme by Sephiroth. And we know Cloud's headache is the sign of Jenova's messing with his mind, would it be the same case with Tifa? After all, she's the only one besides Cloud who has this kind of static vision.

Which brings us back to the question posed at the beginning: What's connecting Tifa and Cloud's mind together right now? Is it real Cloud who slipped into Tifa's mind during the Gongaga LS? Or is it Jenova that has found its way in Tifa's mind after her submerges herself in Mako water and once again in the trial? Or could it be both?

I like to think that the yellow flower represents real Cloud's attempt to fight back Jenova's power. That's why we have the infantry man murmurs "Mo..." near Claudia's house despite at the beginning, he copied Zack's dialogue. And that's why we have a kid Cloud in time he doesn't belong, helping Tifa. Jenova works hard but real Cloud works harder.

[blaintism]

it's just like when i failed you

[dutchdread]

I honestly don’t like Zerith anymore. I have a hard time rationalising Aerith’s behaviour in Rebirth when she’s going to be all over Zack in P3, like how does that even make sense, it’s not a good look for her character at all and I think their reunion will just make me dislike her and the ship even more. I’d like to know your opinion on it.

I understand that, even so I think it's possible to look at Aeriths actions in a way that makes it less objectionable, and for the sake of enjoying the story I would recommend not making the mistake of leaning into interpretations that would lessen your enjoyment of it. I think you can be fair and criticize something while still doing your best to make the most out of it. Before analyzing Aeriths actions though I think it's important to always keep one thing in the back of your mind: SE doesn't want you to hate its main characters. It's totally possible for SE to fail in their story telling, for them to want a character to come across as likable but instead have them come across as completely annoying. But if we want to accurately judge a characters intentions we need to be able to separate how we see a character vs how the developers hoped we would see the character. This is something Cleriths have been historically bad at, which is where we get takes like "Tifa is a manipulative slut" or "Cloud just wants to forsake Tifa and the children so he can go die and be with Aerith" from. We have to make sure we don't fall into the same trap. Clerith try to defend these takes by arguing that the characters actions somehow diegetically point in that direction when any reasonable person should understand that that's not what SE would by trying to convey, and that therefor even if you were to be able to effectively argue that this is a reasonable interpretation of their actions that STILL doesn't imply that that's also the authorial intent. Rather it would simply convey a failure of storytelling.

SE clearly doesn't want to present Aeriths as some sociopathic hussy who would try to get into Tifas good graces in public, but then completely dismiss her feelings in private and attempt to seduce Cloud. If we look at rebirth and see Zack desperately fight through thick and thin for his love for Aerith, and see that contrasted with Aerith as living life, not a care in the world, flirting with Cloud, having long since pushed her memories of Zack off a cliff by merely spending a week with Cloud, then obviously that interpretation paints Aerith in a completely HORRIBLY negative light, which implies that said interpretation is wrong. The optics here are horrible; Zack suffers, and Aerith parties. now obviously in any real world scenario after 4 years of not hearing from a boy this is completely understandable, but the point is: Optics matter here because this isn't an unbiased documentary, this is a story, and stories are shaped by the telling. The optics are chosen by the developers, it's not been 4 years since we've seen Zack, it's 4 minutes. If something is framed in a negative light it is done so for a reason. If the developers don't want to invoke feelings of "this is wrong" when seeing Aerith with Cloud they could choose to simply NOT show Zack. When Cleriths argue that it's fine to move on after 4 years they're completely right of course, but this isn't real life. The developers chose to frame the story in such a way that Aeriths actions make us feel uncomfortable.

So now the question is "WHY"? What reading of this story makes it so that Aerith is a sympathetic character rather than a distasteful one? Well I can summarize it in a single core sentence: Through his living legacy, Aerith gets one last week with Zack. As I've gone over before, the developers would not want us to hate Aerith, yet they consistently frame Aerith in a way where, if you read Aeriths actions towards Cloud as romantically straightforward and geuine Aerith comes across as a borderline villain. You could defend her logically, but that doesn't change the framing. So the answer must be that that's not how the developers are trying to present Aerith. They are most likely trying to present Aerith in a more charitable light, and either failing because they're simply not doing a good job, or because we with our history of being tired from having to argue against her fans for 30 years have simply become prone to not giving her the benefit of the doubt. So is there a way to read Aerith that makes her sympathetic rather than distasteful? I think there is, I think the interpretation Clotis have always had for her does a fine job as long as we keep reminding ourselves of it. The reason Aerith is contrasted with Zack isn't simply to show that Zack is better for her than Cloud, and that Aerith is a frivolous girl who simply doesn't appreciate him and will jump on whoever is nearby, the Jenny to Zacks Forest Gump. No, the contrast is meant to inform the viewer of what Aerith is searching for, about the struggles she's going through. That she's not frivolous, she has her own trauma, a love that she feels she can never get back but is still yearning for in all her heart. When we see Cloud and Aerith have a nightmare date what we're intended to see is Aerith desperately coping because a part of her, even after all these years, misses Zack so much that she's not able to let go and is looking for any sort of life raft to keep her from drowning in it. When she says Zack has probably run off with some other girl that's not her undervaluing Zacks loyalty, or being callous, that's her finding a way to cope with the grief of him not being there. That's her forcing herself to act like it's no big deal to stop the reality of the situation from swallowing her up. At every point Aerith wants to move on, it's been 4 years after all, but can't, the shadow of Zack is everywhere. To me, if you don't look at Aeriths actions as a legitimate attempt at trying to seduce Cloud away from Tifa, but as just her recognizing something of Zack in Cloud, something she lost, and her trying to, clumsily, use that likeness as a way to reorient herself and give her back control of her life, allowing her stopped time to start moving again, then I think you can see her in a more positive light. After all, it's not just anyone that Aerith is coping with, it's someone explicitly channeling Zacks spirit, his living legacy. That itself should show that whatever actions Aerith performs are not because of a lack of appreciation for Zack, her feelings for Zack are strong enough that years later the mere shadow of Zack is still enough to make her unsure of herself. Aeriths one wish was to spend more time with Zack. Zack, under the water tower, promised to come see her, through Cloud Zack fulfills that wish. That is what the time with Cloud grants Aerith, closure. With Cloud Aerith gets to do the things she wanted to do with Zack. If you stop seeing scenes with Cloud and Aerith as being just about them, but start seeing them more as Zacks final promise to Aerith being granted through Cloud, the story starts making sense, and Aerith becomes a tragic character whose ultimate fate, while tragic, has a bittersweet silver lining.

Aerith gets to one last week with Zack, through Cloud, and as a result starts living in the now, and even though she doesn't want to get in between Tifa and Cloud she does want to explore her own heart, she needs to know what Cloud means to her simply to make sense of it and put it at rest. She doesn't know he's Zacks living legacy, she's confused and for a final resolution she needs to figure out what she feels. Even if she realizes it's love, that doesn't mean she'd try to steal Cloud from Tifa, her friend. For her own peace of mind she just needs clarity, and so, rather than looking for Zack in Cloud she tries looking at Cloud himself, at the person standing in front of her rather than just a stand in for Zack. But it's not the same, the spark is not there, they don't look like a couple. Aerith is glad she met Cloud, appreciates that he helped her move on, but while Cloud helped her get back on her feet what she feels for him is not the same as what she felt for Zack, and Clouds heart is likewise in another womans keeping. Do I think Aerith is consciously aware of all this during rebirth? No. I think the living Aerith, without the clarity of Lifestream knowledge, was simply trying to make sense of why she felt so strange around Cloud and what that means, she's more playful as one would expect a real person to be, handling everything the way a normal girl suffering from grief might, she's trying to come to terms with Zacks absence so she can let him go and live again. I think dream Aerith most likely is a bit more knowledgeable, aware of her impending (or bygone) fate, aware in some way of Clouds fake persona, and actively trying to put a concrete name to her feelings so she can now let HIM go and do her duty. Two Aeriths, two men, and two arcs, but Zack being her true love is core to both of them. Aerith comes to term with Zacks absence, but Cloud couldn't fill the void. Though now at peace, Aerith is still looking for her hero, and said hero is on his way.

[dutchdread]

Got a question why do some fans say tifa know the real cloud when in ff7 original she says they were never close as kids in the life stream scene? Even in remake and rebirth she say on the gs ride I can't remember us ever being this close before. Doesn't that make the playing field equal for aerith because tifa didn't know the real cloud either right?

I don't know if they're saying she "knows the real" Cloud, because I sort of agree, she doesn't really get to "know" the real Cloud until he bears his soul to her in the lifestream sequence. I think it's better to say that Tifa is "connected" to the real Cloud, narratively speaking, while Aerith is not.

First though I have to address the misconception that Tifa and Cloud weren't close as kids. They were, traces of two pasts gives us some insight into the childhood of Tifa and Cloud, and in it we learn that Tifa and Cloud were closer when they were VERY young, but grew apart later on. The implication is that this is when Cloud started developing feelings for Tifa, which caused him to distance himself. But there is still a difference between that and Aeriths connection. I think the best scene to explain this is the most obvious one, the water tower scene. In the water tower scene we discover that while Tifa likes Cloud, she wasn't sure yet what sort of "like". Mirroring Aeriths scene at the end of rebirth. But while Aeriths scene ends with the "but" of "liking, BUT not like liking", Tifas story goes a little different. Cloud says he'll be a soldier, and that he's not like other boys, not knowing that this was the 4th time someone has said this to her. And yet, the proclamation didn't disappoint her. Because it's not the alure of Cloud being a famous soldier that catches Tifas eye.

"she'd discovered that Cloud - the quiet neighbour who had always seemed as unreachable as the stars - was just a normal boy like any other. She'd come to understand that she did like him. And it was that special kind of "like" - the one that ties up your heart, making you yearn to be with that person for the rest of your days.

It's that moment, where Cloud bears his soul to her for the first time, when he's "just a boy", that Tifa falls in love. In other words, Tifa fell in love with the exact antithesis of the fake soldier persona that he put on later in life. The irony, and beauty, of this story lies in the fact that Cloud believed he needed to be this heroic soldier for Tifa to notice him, but all he really needed to be was just a boy with some dreams, he just needed to be himself, to be human. For Tifa, Cloud was already a hero just as he was, the boy that followed her up the mountain.

When Tifa meets Soldier Cloud, she's put-off by his eyes and his soldier persona, because that's not who she hoped to see. She hoped to see that hopeful shy boy from Nibelheim that asked her to come to the water tower. Meanwhile Aerith liked his eyes and soldier persona, because that IS who she hoped to see, only in Zack. She's longing for the boy she's wearing pink for, whom she sent letters to for 4 years. Of whom it was her one wish to "spend more time with". Both girls in essence are looking for that connection with the fake Cloud/Zack conglomeration. But only Tifa has the real connection, because at the heart of the fake Cloud lies the real Cloud, and not Zack. Which is why her dates and interactions with Cloud go naturally, because that's his heart shining through from underneath the fake persona. And that's why all the dates with Aerith are so rough, because Aerith is bouncing energy off of him in a way that would work with Zack, but Cloud is not Zack, and because of that the entire thing feels forced and unnatural.

[dutchdread]

Hello Dutch, don't you think Cloud kissed Tifa too soon? The big reveal in the Lifestream scene is the hidden romantic feelings Cloud had for Tifa, but now that revelation won't be as impactful because he has already declared his feelings for her.

This is actually something I've been thinking about myself, and I think that you could definitely make an argument for this being the case. That having been said I think it's a matter of personal….for lack of a better word, choice. I think you can choose to be negative and see it as such, but rather than looking at "what could have been" you can also choose to look at what we actually got and see if there is a positive way to see it.

First lets look at what we didn't get though. We didn't get 2 games of Cloud and Tifa not showing any romantic interest in each other…..can we agree that that's a good thing? Because honestly that would SUCK!!!!! And if we consider how bad the backlash was back in 1997 when the "Tifa is the true love interest" reveal happened in the game itself how bad would it have been if we'd instead had had 8 years and two games of them seemingly being mostly platonic?

People would be absolutely bamboozled, they'd feel it came out of nowhere and probably have felt rather scammed. Clotis would have hated the first two games with a passion, and Cleriths (which would include every new player) would be rioting at the third.

So then the choice is between including it subtly, or going all in. Well, if they went subtle, it would still be noticeable, so the idea that Cloud might have a crush on Tifa would still no longer be a reveal. This isn't 1997, models have facial animations now, they have micro expressions. Back in 1997 being "not interested" or being in love was represented with the same vertical stripe, so regular interactions essentially revealed very little information about a characters emotions.

Pictured: Complete disinterest, or, complete sexual desire. You decide!

But in 2024 the same thing no longer applies. Every sentence, even the simple speaking of a name, comes with a host of meaning. You can't have Cloud speak Tifas name as though it means nothing for 2 games, and still expect people to be on their side when it comes to romance. And you can't expect people to hear Cloud speak Tifas name with longing for 8 years and then still be surprised that he's into her.

So the reveal was always dead in the water, and they instead went all in, because why not? You see, the reveal isn't exactly that Cloud is in love with Tifa. The reveal is the depth of the love, how far back it's gone, and all the things it has caused. Not just that Cloud has and had a crush on Tifa, but that it's been his entire raison d'etre for the past 10 or so years. When Yuffie asks Cloud whether he liked Tifa when he was younger, and he answered "don't remember", this scene suddenly became a lot more poignant as the player realizes that was actually either a bold-faced lie, or very tragically ironic.

The viewer is left wondering if Cloud, even as we were playing him then, was at least aware of his love of Tifa, but wasn't showing it due to his mask, or if even he genuinely forgot the very thing that set him on this path (personally I think that while Cloud is totally unsure of who or what he is, that he is 100% aware that he deeply loves Tifa, even at the start of Remake).

And if we're going to be explicit anyway, then what difference does it make whether he kisses her or not? The reveal that Cloud likes Tifa is gone with or without it, so might as well go with it. And while the reveal might be less impactful for us, there is one person who, even with the kiss, will still be blown away by it. The most important person, Tifa. To Tifa the kiss probably didn't reveal as much as it did to us, because Tifa has no clue what is really going on with Cloud, nor the state of his psyche. With everything he's been doing she could very well be wondering if the person who kissed her was even Cloud. So the reveal that it wasn't just Cloud that kissed her, but that it's so utterly him that he had been longing for it his entire life will feel SOOOOOOO unfathomably relieving that the mere second hand experience that we the player will get through empathy with Tifa will more than compensate for any loss of shock, IF it is done right.

So I guess what I am trying to say is, don't worry, the reveal isn't ruined. Because the reveal will still recontextualize everything that came before it. Before the reveal Cloud hugging Tifa in remake feels like a dude being hugged but being a bit uncomfortable because of his brooding personality, and not knowing what to do, but deciding to hug back because he's grown closer to his childhood friend over the course of the game, and has developed some feelings for her (essentially what Cleriths think Aerith and Cloud are experiencing at the end of Rebirth XD).

After the reveal Tifa hugging Cloud feels like a huge dork getting everything he's dreamed about his entire life and having absolutely no clue what to do because he's so shy and awkward and "omg I never thought I'd get this far, don't screw this up, don't screw this up". Before the reveal Cloud kissing Tifa feels like a cool guy who loves Tifa giving her the kiss they both desire, but probably Tifa most of all. After the reveal the kiss feels like Cloud winning a thousand jackpots at once. A sweet boy whose heart is probably pounding out of this chest and is barely managing to stay cool.

And there is a second improvement to the story resulting from the kiss. Namely the increased sense of loss and pain associated with Cloud drifting away from Tifa and finally breaking. In the original its sad to watch Tifa cry out about losing Cloud, but it's nothing compared to what we get in Rebirth, let alone what we will hopefully get in part 3. There can be no doubt that the reason it hits so hard when Cloud rips away Tifas hand in the temple of the ancients after he tried killing Elena is because the game so effectively established the bond between Cloud and Tifa. Him forcefully removing her hand has become viscerally shocking. Both because it now shows extra clearly how far gone Cloud is, but also because it makes Tifas experience extra tragic.

Without the romance and kiss it would have just been Tifa losing the Cloud she had found by the tracks. She wanted to find the boy she'd fallen in love with, she had wanted to rekindle something, but ultimately she wouldn't have done so, and therefore losing him would feel less painful. It's far more painful to have something and lose it than to never have it in the first place. With the romance and the kiss Tifa actually found that boy and bond that she'd thought about for so long. And to finally find that one sliver of happiness and then to have it ripped away right when she needed it most…..well it cuts twice as hard. When she takes care of Cloud in Mideel, knowing what she lost, having only ever gotten that kiss…..well, it cuts twice as deep.

And of course, this will also make the reveal in the lifestream that she never lost the real Cloud, all the more amazing. (OH THANK GOD, I finally figured out why TUMBLR was randomly not allowing me to post longer posts)

[dutchdread]

Why do you think they made Cloud and Tifas kiss optional. I know it doesn't really matter since the hug and other sweet scenes are optional as well but I was wondering why they decided to have something so significant be an optional date at the golden saucer?

This will be a short reply because it's not really that worth investigating tbh. The optional vs non-optional thing really means very little in this case. It was just wrong place in the story to put it non-optionally basically. This game was supposed to have an affection system. If they made Cloud and Tifa kiss non-optionally, then what could they do in their date that wouldn't feel underwhelming in comparison? Take their clothes off right then and there? That's more of a part 3 thing don't you think? The reason they put it in the date is because that was the right place to put it. Had I made the game, that's where I would have put it, and if I am being completely honest, I might not have even given them a kiss yet, I'd have probably saved that for part 3. As I discussed in a previous reply I could have easily been scared that I was doing too much too soon. Bless em, they've chosen to go more heavy on the Cloti than even me.

This game already has Cloud and Tifa nearly kissing in Gongaga, and we still have an entire game to go. This was the game that payed homage to the affection system of the OG, as well as the part of the story where Cloud is still working through his soldier persona and where Aerith is trying to work out her feelings in regards to Cloud and Zack. It would just be a weird part of the story to put in a must watch kiss.

As a thought experiment, just put yourself in the minds of the developers and ask yourself: "if I were to want to put in a kiss between Cloud and Tifa, where would I put it?" If the answer is "during their date", then congrats, you passed a very low bar for being able to make obvious decisions.

It really isn't more deep or difficult than that. The developers aren't making these games as a shipping puzzle where they go out of their way to sprinkle in kisses in optional scenes just so you have to derive the meaning behind their actions and figure out their shipping master plan or something. They're just trying to tell a story, and in that story Cloud and Tifa are in love, and that story has dates, thus, they kiss on their date. Case closed. You want non optional stuff? Wait for part 3 where Cloud and Tifas relationship, and showing it develop in straight romance, becomes more central to the story.

[dutchdread]

How do you interpret the Aerith date handhold and the ending handhold if not romantic?

For the first one Cloud is overtly unreceptive to Aeriths attempts at making the date romantic until Aerith literally asks Cloud to essentially play along until the ride is over, which he then does in a rather over the top way, as shown by the way they exit the gondola. We can see how Cloud would act naturally in a situation where he's genuinely romantically interested in his date with Tifa and it's noticeably different. That is essentially the Cloud Aerith is trying to get out in the open, but she can't. In this scene Aerith has opened her heart concerning Zack and is clearly going through a range of emotions and after Aerith asks him to play along he tries comforting her by indulging her. Remember, while Cloud isn't romantically interested in Aerith he still considered her a dear friend, he almost acts brotherly here I'd say.

The ending is slightly different, but not that much. Hell, the entire segment again starts with Aerith asking Cloud to play along. First I need to point out though, they didn't hold hands, Cloud held hands with a spirit or something similar, and yes that does matter. Reason being that this entire interaction must be viewed in the context of this spiritual dreamlike state. This is a spiritual connection, not a physical one. Before this Aerith and Cloud have essentially confirmed what they mean to each other, they're very important to each other, but they're not "like that". Their bond here is more spiritual than sexual or romantic, and that's what the handholding signifies, it's essentially a symbol for platonic love. The better question you should ask yourself is, if Aerith is supposed to be romantic, why did Tifa get a kiss and not her? Aerith is dying any way, if the developers wanted to make Aerith the intended love interest, or even if they wanted to make it players choice, they could have easily given Cloud and Aerith a kiss. It would have made it a bit awkward when Cloud gets with Tifa after the lifestream sequence, but with some work you could use his fake persona and memory loss to write it in a way where Cloud doesn't come across as a total dirtbag. Can't do the same in reverse though. A Cloud that kisses Tifa but then holds hands with Aerith would be an extremely problematic MC if the handholding is supposed to be a romantic gesture. Essentially you'd be saying that there is a version of this story where our heroic MC is cheating. I know that IRL a kiss doesn't equal a relationship, but remember, this isn't IRL, this is a story. If Cloud kisses his childhood friend, which in many playthroughs he does, and then without ever addressing it with her starts performing romantic acts with another woman then we have an issue. A kiss is not a sign just of love, but a very specific kind, one with urges and desires. It's exactly that thing that Cloud and Aerith lack. Cloud and Tifa get the romantic sexual signifier of love, because that's how they love each other, romantically. Aerith and Cloud get the platonic gesture of love, because that's how they love each other, symbolically, perhaps even spiritually, but platonically. Which is why the handholding is not a betrayal of Tifa, for exactly the same reason it wasn't a betrayal of my girlfriend when I held my grandmothers hand when SHE was dying, because that was the type of love being displayed.

Thanks for the question.

[dutchdread]

Response: Clerith is a Japanese romance

This article was written as a response to a video linked to me on twitter. I felt that Twitters character limit is too restrictive to really address a 10 minute video so instead I decided to just post it here and link it to the original poster. While this article may be interesting to anyone it is mostly a response the original poster and is written as such, I might rewrite it later to make it more palatable for a more general audience. The video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgOpJaSRkY&t=66s I recommend watching the video to get a full idea of the argument being made, but for a TLDR; version the video argues that Clerith is an example of a Japanese romantic story telling themes that are contrasted with Tifas more explicit western style romance, and that this explains why there is seemingly less explicit evidence of romance or grand gestures such as kisses, and why things like handholding are equally valid to establish romance. The video focusses mostly on the concepts off: "Mono no Aware", "Ma", and "Musubi".

__________________________________________________________

Response: So, I’ve listened to your video and as you’d probably expect I have some remarks. Luckily the subject matter didn't go as obscure as I thought it might so I didn’t really have to go into new areas for me in regards to Japanese culture so that makes responding a little easier. The bloodtype thing is indeed exceedingly japanese, but I don’t think that’s really where the bulk of the argument here lies so I’m gonna skip over that. Here are my issues with the video, in ascending order: ___________________________________________________ 1: This argument is, in essence, just an unfalsifiable claim:

You’re basically saying “yes, Clerith doesn’t have much solid evidence like Cloti does, but that's exactly what makes it MORE real”. But there is a problem here, because if you can assert romance without concrete evidence then how do you differentiate between a romantic dynamic and a similar “non-romance” one? What you’re promoting is essentially the Cloti interpretation of the story. You’ve taken what is ostensibly a weakness of Clerith, namely that it’s not explicit or concrete, but vague and ill-defined, and tried to switch that into a strength. And while I agree that ambiguity can be powerful storytelling it by itself doesn’t strengthen Aeriths case as a definitive love interest. Without concrete evidence, how do we distinguish romance from the deep platonic connection that Cloti asserts for Cloud and Aerith? ______________________________________________________

2: Concepts like “mono no aware” or “musubi”, are descriptive, not prescriptive While this type of dynamic was potentially what they were going for you can’t use that as evidence for Aerith being a legit romance interest. Yes, there are stories in both Japan AND the west that follow this mold (Lost in translation comes to mind), AND are romantic in nature, but there are also cases where they are not. While these concepts are useful frameworks to explore romance through they are not inherently romantic. They can represent a sense of connection, yes, but also grief, change, identity, or spiritual recognition. We need to ask: "why is romance the best reading in this case, especially when the story provides a more explicit, resolved romantic arc elsewhere?" Though concepts like “the beauty of the moment” certainly have a romantic air to them they are not inherently amorous, nor uniquely japanese, we even had an entire school of western art named “romanticism” which explored the beauty of transient things in distinct but similar ways. Just like all thumbs are fingers but not all fingers thumbs this doesn’t mean all these dynamics are romantic, you still need to actually make a case for why the romantic interpretation is more reasonable here AND what that actually means in this scenario. ------------------------------------------------------------------ 3: There is more than one theme to be considered. Which leads to the next issue, namely that this isn’t the only theme or character dynamic at play. You need to be able to answer: “how are these concepts woven into the story and how do they mesh with other concepts like the gnostic concept of the Sefirot, the more explicit “western” romance that you admit exists with Tifa, throwing off the fake self, coming to terms with loss, moving on, etc.” And this is where I believe you run into a brick wall, because fundamentally the concept of "aware" doesn’t require the “romance” part to be real, nor overpowering, nor central, nor enduring. By which I mean this entire thing can play out as part of Clouds fake persona arc and it would still be a completely valid way to use the general idea of "aware" as inspiration, hell, I’d even argue that these concepts naturally call for it. The kinships implied by Musubi, Ma, and Aware all do no need to be amorous, arguably them NOT being spousal in nature is often the point, the beauty of the moment devoid of materialistic definition. And seeing as how there is a parallel romance here that ISN’T vague, you again run into the issue that only one interpretation here respects both Heroines and everyones character arc. 

You focus on japanese concepts but as I stated earlier there is more than one motif at play here. One of my favorites to look at are the paths of the Sephiroth, with Aerith being representative of “chesed”, which also signifies a more non-sexual, compassionate love reminiscent of mother earth, and I am completely fine with an interpretation of the story where Cloud and Aerith during the “Cloud Zack identity crisis debacle” have confused feelings that ultimately resolve in some sort of “spiritual mutual appreciation of each others being”. I’d argue that that is exactly the type of interpretation you need to accept to make sense of the story.

_____________________________________________________ 4: You've been arguing for Cloti Which leads to perhaps my biggest issue, which is that what you’re doing here is essentially promoting the Cloti interpretation of the story. If we’re talking about the dynamic between Aerith and Cloud as some vague, ill-defined, “sense of a feeling”, that is subtle, spiritual rather than sexual, and focused around “what ifs” and “maybes”, and "the beauty of transient feelings", then congrats, you’re a Cloti. It’s not Clotis that are unsatisfied with anything less than a “concrete western physical romance”, it’s Cleriths. Clotis simply point out that that is what Cloud and Tifa have, and it’s seemingly what Cleriths desire, which is why they’re not satisfied with keeping it  “devoid of emotional clarity”.

Rather they want Cloud to NOT be with Tifa, but instead pine after Aerith after her death and have ghost babies with her, they want his feelings for Aerith to be distinctly sexual. None of this is vague or wistful, none of this respects the unique nature of bonds, nor the transience of beautiful things, What they desire is concrete and eternal. It’s a desire for the romance that we in the west regard as romance, which is “the desire to spend ones life by someones side for eternity”, INCLUDING raising kids, having a family, boy and girl, etc.

If Cleriths were willing to admit that that is what Tifa is for Cloud, and what he felt for Aerith was a vague sense of spiritual love that cannot exactly be put into words, then sure, but that’s not what they’re saying is it? Rather than them exemplifying the idea of seeing a beautiful flower, appreciating the unique beauty of the moment, letting it go and “MOVING ON”, they’ve instead promoted the mindset of ripping out the flower to prevent it dying, ruined its beauty by tearing it from the ground and pressing it into a book, and staring at it while other, more beautiful flowers grow and die outside, they themselves withering away with it.

------------------------------------------------------------- 5. We're not in Japan.

And while you are welcome to say “well in Japan they consider that romance”, we are not Japanese. This matters because while the game might be Japanese, our discussion is western, we are translating it to terms WE understand. We’re not talking about Japanese umbrella terms but whether something fits into OUR perception of romance. It’s like me asking if a certain character is another characters brother, and you explain to me that in japan it’s not strange to call a close male character “onii-san”. It’s great that they do so, but that’s not the spirit of the question, the question is asked from a western framework. Same is true here. By defending this version of the Cloud Aerith dynamic as counting as “romantic” you’ve essentially weakened your own argument, because in a way you are admitting that Aeriths arc doesn’t require her to be a romantic partner in the way we generally understand it for her character arc to function emotionally. And you are correct, welcome to Cloti, because this same understanding is what leads Clotis to see the story in a way where both Tifa and Aerith have their own unique “places” in the narratives rather than conflicting ones that require “several paths”. The game doesn’t need several paths, because the type of feelings shared between Aerith and Cloud are fundamentally not at conflict with the ones felt shared between Tifa and Cloud. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Conclusion:

Ultimately, if you want to mesh these more subtle concepts with the more explicit motifs in the story you again naturally emerge at a Cloud who, through a series of weird coincidences: at one point “had complicated ill-defined feelings for Aerith that he himself probably doesn’t even quite understand. But has now moved on with life, leaving that moment in time to shine as its own thing without it hindering his real life and family”.

It reminds me of the ending to Lord of the rings really, one could easily argue that Sam and Frodo had a version of this exact same Cloud Aerith bond (hell they even have famous handholding). Sam isn’t gay, but that doesn’t matter, he still loves Frodo in a spiritual sense. And in the end Frodo leaves, not just for himself, but also for Sam, because as Frodo so wisely realizes “My dear Sam, you cannot always be torn in two, you will have to be one, and whole for many years, you have so much to enjoy, and to be, and to do. Your part in this story will go on”. 

This is the exact same lesson you would HAVE to aim for if you want any sort of resolution to this story that does not fundamentally insult one part of your main cast. And everything we’ve seen from FFVII points to this indeed being the case. Hell, AC is the definition of this story. When Aerith and Zack walk into the light this is exactly the lesson Cloud is left with. There is no version of this story that would be thematically consistent and congruent that doesn’t end with Cloud fully devoting himself to his life with Tifa. 

The irony is that by insisting on framing Cloud and Aerith’s bond as “romance” despite its abstract nature, Clerith arguments end up undermining the very beauty of that bond. It becomes less about honoring a moment and more about trying to extend it beyond its thematic expiration date, like pressing the flower in a book rather than letting it fade naturally. The story doesn’t support the idea that Cloud remains torn forever. If anything, it's about moving on with life while cherishing what came before, and that’s what makes it meaningful. Cleriths want their cake and eat it too, they want Cloud and Aerith to have a spiritual bond that's above description....but they also want him to not be into Tifa and to see Aerith very specifically as his one true waifu.

[tifa-simp]

I JUST WANT TO BE PART OF YOUR SYMPHONY🏄‍♀️🗣🌈🌊🎵🎶🎼