It took me a while to find time to sit down and reply to this reply.
I think I’m generally annoyed by the same trends in fic that annoy you, but there’s a subtext in arguments like this one that I dislike and don’t agree with.
I mean the application of heteronormative roles to queer couples IS a problem in fandom when it comes to writing cis gay men. Aligns with the woobification (or whatever the hell you wanna call it) of generally Not Soft characters. Cis queer man here and we’ve discussed this before in queer circles. It’s less about the fanfiction than the assumption that one man must take on a “soft” role and the other must be tough/dominant/stoic. It’s annoying to read - if it’s wildly OOC. But honestly idk what to do about it. It’s uncomfortable. But I’m also an avid supporter of “people can write whatever the fuck the want, even if it’s god fucking awful” and I support archives like AO3. It sucks to be represented that way but I guess I’d rather see it on AO3 than like... at the local gay bar (though it def happens at the local gay bar, too).
(I’m not even against softer characters as I write plenty myself. In my current fandom, a BNF reminded fandom that a certain beloved character was not actually a soft boi and was quite possibly guilty of murder, was often canonically ruthless and sometimes even cold and calculating... and fandom got /pissed/ because how DARE they insinuate said character should be anything less than a total softie, super intensely kind and empathic woke boy... even though hes a bit racist, sexist, and ambitious.
I have as much of a problem with “it is a problem” statements as I do with the word ‘problematic’. They’re both useful terminology, but they’re supposed to be followed up with an explanation. They’re generally not followed up that way, hence my problem with them. Haha.
What does it actually do that is a problem? I’m thinking that in this case, “It sucks to be represented that way” is the nature of the issue. I empathize with the feeling. What I think is missing from this analysis is that the majority of these depictions aren’t representation of cis men any more than drag queens represent women.
The entire community around BL and slash fanfiction tends to be representing the inner lives of the sorts of people who write/draw/consume this content, the overwhelming majority of whom are not cis men.
(The majority of members of these communities are not monosexual either. They tend to be like a third bi/pan/etc. and a third ace as far as I can tell. That’s sort of a side point but sort of not. These are spaces of liminal queerness and contested identities played out on less contested bodies, just as drag plays out contested queer genders in the form of parodic excesses of conventional genders.)
The overt bodies being used in fanfic are cis male ones, but I wouldn’t assume much from that. A drag queen can talk about her “pussy” or even have vag printed on a t-shirt without me thinking she’s speaking about or to me, a pussy-haver.
“Only cis men have a right to depict cis men” is certainly an internally-consistent stance. It’s not one I share, however.
One answer I see frequently to how it’s a problem is: “It spreads stereotypes”. I really question how valid that one is when we’re talking fanfic or even niche romance novels in the West. I think it holds a little more water in Asia in those countries with a reasonably large professional BL industry.
The question I would ask for the stereotype issue is whether fic is more stereotypical or spreads more harmful messages than the media that is by and for cis men. And that leads me to the big objection I have to these replies:
“It’s less about the fanfiction than the assumption that one man must take on a “soft” role and the other must be tough/dominant/stoic”
I get that it’s annoying to have homophobic relatives at holidays going “Which one of you is The Girl?”, but I don’t think that’s what’s happening in fanfic.
A lot of porn tropes and romance novel tropes for that matter are role-based. One is the spanker and one is the spankee or whatever. This is how a lot of people’s libidos work. It’s common in all types of fantasy material, including a lot of cis gay men’s erotica.
I too prefer a more buddy movie, sworn brothers vibe to my romances. I like it when the POV alternates and they’re two superheroes teaming up to save the day. (Or even better, a villain and a superhero, but I digress.)
It’s just as much of a kink as liking erotica where one is an adult baby and one is a caretaker is. While I don’t like the default assumption that roles are the “natural” way to structure everything, I also don’t think it’s fair to think the opposite is the only natural way.
We’ve seen this debate offline in queer communities: Are butch and femme antiquated and heteronormative or are they valid ways of expressing queerness?
Look back on any debate from the 80s/90s with joking commentaries about “clones” and two androgynous lesbians or gay men wearing identical flannel shirts, and you’ll see this fundamental schism in queer culture.
I just don’t think most fic writers imagine that m/m relationships require roles. I think most fanfic is better understood as a fantasy of:
I want to be a femme pillow princess who’s so desirable that a hot butch will sweep me off my feet, cater to me sexually, cook me gourmet meals, and solve my financial problems.
The fluffy, consensual fics tend to be this, but the rapey villain badtouch fics also have a lot of this. The roles aren’t The Girl™ and The Guy™: They’re Self and Aspirational Partner.
Personally, I have always aspired to find someone as awesome as me and to be awesome together, but I also like myself.
It’s not as 1:1 and clear cut as that. Armchair psychology only takes us so far, and every reader likes multiple types of story, but I do think there’s an element of the above affecting the styles that show up in fanfic.
But even as much as the uke/bottom/woobified one is kind of self-inserty for many, they’re also often the one the reader and writer desire more. Part of why there are so many girly, crying men in fandom is that fandom is horny for that.
Cis gay men’s media is garbage for this, generally. Asian media aimed at women is great for relatively non-butch guys, even in the straight stuff. BL is even better.
The split between US cis gay men’s media and slash fanfiction is very similar to the split between BL manga and gei komi in Japan: You find bears in the stuff for gay guys and androgynous prettyboys in the stuff for the ladies.
“Do I want to fuck you, or do I want to be you?” is a standard question of both BL and a lot of queer desire in general. And what that desirable person looks like to fic writers is Bucky Barnes crying and making his guyliner run.
Some people are just idiots though
All of that said, your specific example with the BNF is something I see all the time and it’s super annoying. I’m with you there!
I just wouldn’t conflate fandom’s general tendency towards saintly woobie+ambulatory dildo with cooking skills pairings with specific fans being idiots. That’s like thinking that because some people with rape fantasies are rapists, the fantasy and the behavior are linked for everyone else. When a taste is overwhelmingly common, you’re going to run into a lot of shitty people who share that taste.
Oversensitive dumbasses are always going to go “How dare you think my fave has flaws?” And they’re always going to make their fave “better” according to whatever “better” means to them.
If they’ve failed to accurately reproduce mainstream media and its 95% cis dude directors/showrunners/producers/studio heads and have imposed a massive level of Very Online obsession with fine gradations of terminology and endless wangsting about how one slip of the tongue makes you a monster forever... well... that’s who’s doing the writing. It’s reflecting themselves.
Things go together because they happened to me
The key piece I see in every commentary like this is that one sees one’s own life as a coherent whole.
Bad assumptions in bars happen to you, so they’re relevant. M/M content is relevant to you. And so m/m content that reminds you of what happens in bars is part of a pattern.
But the person who produced that content was likely operating in some totally different space and does not go to gay bars at all. The patterns they were looking at are those of romance novels or of how misogyny affects AFABs or some other thing entirely.
It’s fine to dislike the trends. I too dislike plenty of them. But I don’t think it’s accurate to look at this through a cis male lens except insofar as you are yourself and everyone has a right to their own personal experience and opinions.
Drag queens try on femaleness to process an experience of being seen as effeminate. BL authors try on effeminacy to process and experience of being seen as female.
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