[kishiar-la-orr]

welcome to the kishiar quote blog.

submissions & asks: PAUSED

you can send in your favorite kishiar lines from turning (novel or manhwa) or any turning fics you adore. this blog runs on a queue.

please support the author and artist if you can!

official KR novel: ridibooks

official KR manhwa: ridibooks

novelupdates: turning

fanwiki: turning on miraheze

ao3 tag: turning by kuyu

important tags

novel quote

fic recs

[kishiar-la-orr]

not incredibly well-thought because i'm just typing down thoughts briefly but

to me, the first timeline is the slightly less fairy tale-like version. the second timeline can be called a fix-it, an everything-goes-right, a best case scenario, which needed a grand plot device in the form of yuder regressing in order to happen at all. there must be tons and tons of different versions of first timeline where some things go right, some things also go wrong, in different ways whether miniscule or catastrophic. its not the worst though. things could go even worse, im sure.

there's a lot of takes surrounding first timeline kishiar with differing points. (also, as you know, im a glazer). and after running through a lot of them, it just makes me think that personally, a novel so nuanced and with a lot of complex interpersonal and intrapersonal happenings like turning needs to be approached with good faith and compassion. in my experience, doing that helps maximize my enjoyment of it.

second timeline kishiar is a 'green flag ML', yes, but he can only run because first timeline kishiar walked. what is turning if not about love and humanity? and the thing about loving while being human is, love doesnt stay pure all the time. sometimes its twisted, sometimes its murky. sometimes even when the love is pure, the communication gets lost in the middle. love happens even when people have a lot of difficult situations in their lives or even when they think they're not in a good place to be loving other people. first timeline yuder was also still green and less mature than second timeline yuder, a lot less equipped in many ways. second timeline yuder himself also needed to mature a lot before he could properly begin a relationship with second timeline kishiar that's grounded in trust and the expression of genuine care.

so many factors are being taken into consideration when writing turning, i think. thats why it becomes such a beautiful piece of work that can touch the hearts of many people, with characters and storylines that resonate with a lot of the fans. i find that it's turning's biggest charm. first timeline kishiar isn't a perfect victim nor a perfect 'toxic ex-boyfriend'. he tried his best and his best still had repercussions that are less than ideal for the people he loved whom he left behind. of course, there's also the fact that the story is mostly written through the main character yuder's perspective. i think i enjoy turning the most when i can see it through this type of lens, trying to keep in mind where the characters are coming from and empathize with them and taking the novel (as all fictions are) as a lesson in humanity.

[kishiar-la-orr]

adding these two (from @ancientarchive and @sorasan000) because theyre tags i really like!

[kishiar-la-orr]

not incredibly well-thought because i'm just typing down thoughts briefly but

to me, the first timeline is the slightly less fairy tale-like version. the second timeline can be called a fix-it, an everything-goes-right, a best case scenario, which needed a grand plot device in the form of yuder regressing in order to happen at all. there must be tons and tons of different versions of first timeline where some things go right, some things also go wrong, in different ways whether miniscule or catastrophic. its not the worst though. things could go even worse, im sure.

there's a lot of takes surrounding first timeline kishiar with differing points. (also, as you know, im a glazer). and after running through a lot of them, it just makes me think that personally, a novel so nuanced and with a lot of complex interpersonal and intrapersonal happenings like turning needs to be approached with good faith and compassion. in my experience, doing that helps maximize my enjoyment of it.

second timeline kishiar is a 'green flag ML', yes, but he can only run because first timeline kishiar walked. what is turning if not about love and humanity? and the thing about loving while being human is, love doesnt stay pure all the time. sometimes its twisted, sometimes its murky. sometimes even when the love is pure, the communication gets lost in the middle. love happens even when people have a lot of difficult situations in their lives or even when they think they're not in a good place to be loving other people. first timeline yuder was also still green and less mature than second timeline yuder, a lot less equipped in many ways. second timeline yuder himself also needed to mature a lot before he could properly begin a relationship with second timeline kishiar that's grounded in trust and the expression of genuine care.

so many factors are being taken into consideration when writing turning, i think. thats why it becomes such a beautiful piece of work that can touch the hearts of many people, with characters and storylines that resonate with a lot of the fans. i find that it's turning's biggest charm. first timeline kishiar isn't a perfect victim nor a perfect 'toxic ex-boyfriend'. he tried his best and his best still had repercussions that are less than ideal for the people he loved whom he left behind. of course, there's also the fact that the story is mostly written through the main character yuder's perspective. i think i enjoy turning the most when i can see it through this type of lens, trying to keep in mind where the characters are coming from and empathize with them and taking the novel (as all fictions are) as a lesson in humanity.

[kishiar-la-orr]

in defense of first game kishiar,

turning is a finely crafted story. kuyu makes sure to ground every single one of their characters to the world that they live in, the world the story happens in.

today (as always) i am gonna talk about kishiar, but more specifically kishiar and his relationship to mortality, recontextualizing the things he did in the first game and all. super special humongous gigantic thanks to @kouraissant for helping me with this and bearing with my nonstop kishiar and mortality thoughts!

a lot of the things i'll be talking about also involves a degree of personal experiences and maybe a healthy dash of self-projection. as a disclaimer, you don't have to agree with me on anything and everything, but i'd rather some of the more personal parts to not be responded to rudely or unkindly. i will not tolerate that, sorry.

usual kishiar & mortality tw: canonical suicide attempt discussion, canonical self-harm, canonical death. be wary of spoilers.

1TL = first game/pre-regression/first timeline 2TL = second game/post-regression/second timeline

kishiar is a really fascinating character and his relationship with mortality moreso. a lot of the things that kishiar does, in my opinion, is very much colored by his circumstances growing up, specifically being born with the knowledge that second, third, etc. imperial children tend to be die young as if having 'major defects' be it physical or mental (ch 109) and ended up having no power, remaining unmarried and bowing their heads their whole lives (ch 14).

that is to say, all his life, he surely knows he can die quickly and easily, almost anytime. it's true that for everyone, death does come suddenly, but in kishiar la orr's life, death is like a childhood friend you don't like but are forced to get along with. again, this colors his whole life. this is the kind of circumstances that forces you to mature really quickly, to learn to be expressive and speak your thoughts like it's your last day, but to also learn to hold your tongue and bow down your head because you're a prince and your words still have consequences beyond normal children's would. you're forced to accept that this is the kind of life you will live and the kind of death you'll be documented as. by all accounts, i think that the current kishiar is really good at managing social situations however tricky they are, the fact that he's a rizzmaster, part of all those also comes from being used to having to process things quickly because you don't have the time to even live, being used to having to be expressive because god knows when your last day will be.

given all that as a background information, let's reexamine the conditions of 1TL.

i'd like to first point out that in 1TL, the very health and life expectancy that he used to not have pre-awakening was already given to kishiar during the awakening. i'm not too privy yet with the circumstances during the two years since the fall of the red stone to the cavalry recruitment in early canon, unfortunately, but i'll assume it was also time spent preparing and not just in silence, maybe even preparing for the cavalry to be created or searching for a cure for keilusa as well (though this is just personal theory). even so, two years really isn't that much time? soon after his awakening and tasting good health and better life expectancy the first time in his life, 1TL red stone retrieval mission happened, which forced kishiar to withdraw the divine sword without him meaning to and regained him the same vessel issues he's always experienced his whole life, basically bringing him back to square one after giving him the one thing he's always wanted his whole life. it's like the universe telling him: "look at everything you could have once had. endless possibilities. none of them are yours. not anymore."

to me, after at least 600+ chapters of reading, kishiar's character's basis is his loved ones. almost all of his actions can be traced back to him doing it in alignment with the position he has (being a prince and a duke) and out of the love he has for nathan, keilusa, and other people in his life. to be brought back to square one, struggling once again with the same old vessel issues, except worse this time, because many of the past imperial children didn't even make it to age thirty (ch 109) while he was already 29 and he almost died once already because of this very same thing.

expanding on his past experience with vessel issues and his response to it, from chapter 602 and chapter 160, likely kishiar's condition was so bad he might as well be almost dead before the timely awakening happened and immediately was followed by his second gender manifestation. he probably thought it was for real his death happening, not a surprise. he cleared off everyone and attempted suicide by touching the divine sword. that he cleared off everyone can also be argued as a selfless action, wanting to keep the smallest person possible to witness his impending doom, in order to save his loved ones from the heartache of seeing him suffer, try to kill himself and/or die.

it can also however be seen as selfish. after all, who is it that loves you and wants you to kill yourself?

this is where we will have to reiterate some points: kishiar is someone who's good at processing and expressing emotions. he's also good at knowing how to hold back and when to hold back from expressing said emotions. he's also someone who is logical and reasonable. and i also want to introduce some new points, that is: the universal fact that a lot of mental strain and generally bad mental health often cause irrationality in people, even someone who's perceived as reasonable or someone who's good at emotions. spiralling is called spiralling for a reason.

from the point of view of reason, leaving your cavalry commander mantle to the hyper-competent guy you happen to love to death, watching him get inaugurated, constantly visiting him, and of course, the pethuamet fight (which yuder 2TL classified as kishiar self-harming) are all illogical. kishiar's 1TL actions cannot be called reasonable or logical because they aren't. they are irrational the same way you and i get irrational when we're in extreme emotional duress. can anyone really claim to be logical when the threat of death looms so closely you can't even see it clearly anymore?

let's talk about some more things, like how the commander uniform he personally tailored for yuder (ch 625) is seen as yuder as unnecessary. logistically speaking, it really is unnecessary, it's not like yuder needed a new uniform when he can just wear kishiar's old ones and it'd probably just need some adjusting to fit better? but then it is explicitly stated by 2TL kishiar as 'hoping the person will wear them and think about the person who made it.' (ch 626)

also on the same conversation, 2TL kishiar stated that the strongest fear he has ever felt was during the late emperor's funeral, the feeling of being powerless, how frightening it was to look at the reality in front of him while he could only imagine what would happen to him, keilusa and the country in the future (ch 625). and in chapter further back, he also stated that in the tactical game, in the event that his special piece is almost caught by the enemy before he can use it, he would 'take the initiative and put it out as a bait in front of the enemy' (ch 105).

it paints a picture of this: it's not that he wants to do all these things, it's that who knows how to deal with death and the mental strain that comes with it when there are no actionable steps you can take, nothing under your control? he has a history of harming himself too, as i said, with the suicide attempt. in kishiar's case, the self-harm and the manifestation/post-awakening incident when he tried to kill himself, everything feels a bit more like struggling to feel a semblance of control in a world that is out of his control, when even his body feels out of his control all his life.

really, all of the things that can be deemed illogical, like ruining his relationships with everyone just so they feel less pain when he dies or like selfishly leaving yuder a legacy to care for or constantly visiting yuder even after his retirement, it stems from the selfish and very human desires of wanting to keep the loved ones near while he has time, trying to wrestle for a semblance of control, trying to leave anything useful at all that is within his capacity to give towards his loved ones for when after he's gone, grappling with all of the complicated emotions and love and care he has that he can't even act on. it's made even more complicated when you remember that kishiar isn't even suicidal originally. he's like this because of the circumstances thrusted upon his hands, he's only driven to that point because maybe he too doesn't want to die a dogshit death.

the upside is just because it's illogical doesn't mean it's treated callously or looked down upon. 1TL kishiar's actions are written beautifully by kuyu and never in a negative light. yuder himself has gripes about 1TL kishiar, but never outright insulted or downplayed his influences. if anything, the way yuder thinks of 1TL kishiar's actions, especially after knowing the imperial family's vessel issues, is very sympathetic (ch 293). in the words of our friend baby potat aloo,

like: look at this man trying to wrangle with his own tragic fate as best as he can while people he cares about most and people who care about him are unfortunately subjected to the pain of passively spectating his self-destructive ways of trying to gain some semblance of control (thinking of nathan and uuder) and/or secretive plans that seem like the 'best' choice in his opinion. nonetheless it's still about love.

that has been a long discussion over kishiar and mortality, kishiar and his loved ones as the basis of his motivation for every action. but let's not forget to talk about yuder, the one he has an almost-electric connection, deep and soulful, to. in a way, chapter 291's kishiar dialogue line "i feel like i can live now" can be seen as something he says out of love for yuder, because yuder is one of his loved ones, one of the ones he treasures the most. but also you can see it as another control thing. he's there out of his own accord, he came there through the window without being seen out of his own choice and yuder always 'tolerated' the situation, never reporting it. we can argue these are games and rendezvous they both consented to.

next, let's discuss: this is what he said in chapter 46, right before his death:

"...I wonder where it all went wrong. Thinking about it, it seems like it was when we retrieved the Red Stone." "..." "Yes... That's right. It must have been then that everything started going wrong. But even knowing that, I couldn't stop it. Because I had no other choice."

it rings so much of hopelessness, of someone who can't do anything but imagine a universe where the only thing he wanted in life was ripped away from him the moment it was bestowed. and then immediately dismissing it because it doesn't matter when it's already happened and the only thing he can do now is, just like the dukes before him, bow down his head and await for his death.

in later chapters, we also come to know that he cleared off the entire building and it was nearing his birthday when the assassination took place. we can also argue that this is euthanasia or assisted suicide, the executioner and helper is the one kishiar loves the most, who doesn't even really want to kill him. rather than a dogshit death he didn't choose, 1TL kishiar arranged it so that he dies in yuder's hands, knowing that it'd change his relationship with someone he loved so much, to die like a euthanised dog, spared the pain of unattainable hopes. in a way, it's a curse on yuder's memories, good or bad, of him, in a way, it's an act of making yourself an open wound. this too isn't rational, similarly to the way he leaves a personalized clothing for yuder's inauguration and new status as the cavalry commander or the way he gave him a name, this is a way of leaving behind a legacy, a desperate act of wanting to be remembered by his loved ones.

so, what's the point of all of this? nothing, i'm just a kishiar shooter. but also, everything. because the miscommunication in 1TL isn't one that can be so easily solved by speaking up. it's something that's integral to the story plotline, caused by the story circumstances, it's a testament too to how good kuyu's writing is and the complexity of kishiar as a character. it is, unfortunately, not as simple as just say you love him before you die. that is my conclusion.

some more unrelated, but perhaps also fun points:

i truly think, like a true self sabotage, kishiar's actions as an attempt to feel some semblance of control only works against him, making him feel more powerless and out of control

also this is for sure why he's so invested in healing keilusa

to another degree, cavalry in 2TL becomes his purpose and one of the major factors of his identity (the way it was to yuder 1TL, which is a discussion for another time), so in 1TL, stepping down could arguably also be seen as a loss of both authority/power and responsibility, leading to an even more 'out of control' feeling, even if he was indeed the one to step down out of his own accord, like no one forced him

1TL yuder was looked down on as a male omega leader, not man nor woman, commonborn cavalry commander who slept his way up. a lot of the things he did, even down to his fighting style, was also, to a certain point, a way of fighting for power, to look powerful and gain authority and be feared, if not respected. at the same time, kishiar didn't die instantly. he committed a lot of actions (as said earlier) that felt more like a grappling with control, which is just another form of power/authority. in a way, you can see these two foiling each other at the moment, struggling with power over how ppl perceive you (yuder) vs struggling with power over how you perceive yourself (kishiar). which is also funny because turning is also a story about power to me, what-with the catalyst to all of canon's plot being the red stone, which granted power to the people living in turning's canon universe

thanks for reading!

[yudrein-aile]

Second Gender Manifestations, Sexual Assault and the Law: Omegaverse in Turning

I got too invested after an earlier elaboration. As always, chapter references are in brackets.

Content warnings: human experimentation, rape, mutual-non con, assault, childhood sexual assault. Please be mindful while reading!

I’d be lying if I said that this topic has been haunting me since I started reading Turning. I picked this novel up specifically because it had the Omegaverse tag and I found myself intrigued. Would this story play it like most BL Omegaverse, following a more “traditional” set up or if the author was going to do something fun and new with it?

And new it was, brand new in fact. The concept of Alphas and Omegas is brand new in Turning. By the time the story starts, they’ve only existed for two years – and that is without knowing quite how long it took the population to figure out that second genders had even manifested. Kishiar awakened and went through his second gender manifestation at the same time (160), and is one of the first confirmed second gender Awakeners in the world (115), but Kishiar awakened as a male Alpha, which, from what we know so far, doesn’t appear to deviate as much from being a cis man in the first place.

Still, second gender manifestations were new, and immediately cause panic.

The Emperor of the Orr Empire and the Pope officially declared it the "second gender bestowed by the gods," and the general populace, who had been terrified that their own bodies might change at any moment, were greatly relieved. (3)

Second genders are not well received. Yuder tells us that in the first timeline, people are quick to start to discriminate against Omegas, who are believed to awaken weaker abilities and have weaker physical abilities. Their heat cycles are also stronger, as is their scent, quickly leading to the belief that they are sexual deviants, who can’t control their own scents, which can be detected even by non-Awakeners (3). This eventually leads to Omegas also being excluded from the Cavalry, despite the head of the Cavalry being an Omega himself (3).

Yuder was praised as the strongest Awakener on the continent, but even he wasn’t free of discrimination:

There had been countless people over the years who looked down on Yuder, an Omega, for being the leader of the Cavalry. Among the Awakeners, there were many who refused to acknowledge him. (4)

Not only is Yuder an Omega who allegedly slept his way to power – more on that notion later – but he’s also a “broken” one as he doesn’t perceive scents or experience a heat cycle. (4) All of this reveals a prejudice that mirrors real-life misogyny well enough, which is quite fascinating considering Turning itself appears to have little societal misogyny, women are fully legally equal citizens to men, and a woman inheriting titles or such is not forbidden, but even welcome in some cases (Myra el Herne) and they are even high-ranking in the army while married with children (Meghna Cuglieva). This makes the particular discrimination Omegas face quite interesting as it appears to not just be a straight-up copy of discrimination that women already face.

And clearly, even within the Awakener community, there grows a perception of what Omegas should be like. Yuder, during his time as Commander, had to deal with people sneaking into his bedroom “claiming they could suppress the scentless Omega Commander with their scents” (190) aka attempting to “fix” him, not unlike the rhetoric used particularly around queer people. While Yuder speaks of “suppressing” here, to me, it reads more as though their intention was sexual assault. The fact that Yuder’s solution to this was beating them up until their “dicks were broken” (190) appears to support that.

One, further, explanation for the discrimination Omegas, particularly male omegas, might face is the fact that they can get pregnant. While there appears no disgust per se at the notion, Lenore and Beltreil’s conversation about Kishiar’s second gender, at the very least, drips with mockery, it is a worthy consideration:

"I'm not sure. Didn't uncle say it's difficult to distinguish just by appearance? But I would prefer it if it were the Omega." "Why is that?" "Wouldn't it be nice if God granted at least the mercy of nurturing an imperial heir directly to someone who is destined not to have children? Especially considering how blessed he is."

Clearly, they are making fun of him here, especially since Kishiar is considered Tall Handsome ManTM, but perhaps in there lies the truth, that even the body of a man like him could be changed without his input, feminized in a way. It is in particular why I love Kishiar so much when he interacts with Yuder, all typically “feminine” character traits, interest in fashion, dancing, being chatty, are regaled to Kishiar and not Yuder. But also I would kill for an Omega Kishiar AU in case anyone feels inspired. Moving on-

We know that talking about second genders becomes a taboo topic within years of them becoming more common knowledge as Yuder notes that, opposed to now, two years after they appeared, “in a few more years, openly asking about someone's secondary gender would become impolite” (20). Yuder calls this current state of talking about it easily, without shame or stigma “liberating” (20). Perhaps the closest real-world comparison to this is going from trans* friendly space where discussing gender happens nearly casually, to being thrust into the open world, where every discussion of your gender is immediately tied to an expected performance and tied to a sexual connotation. But we’re not here for the real world, but for this fantasy novel so let’s continue and take a quick look at how second gender manifestation actually works.

Second Gender Manifestation aka Puberty, but WorseTM

In chapter 156, Yuder summarizes quite neatly what they know of how second gender manifestation works.

Being an Awakener did not necessarily mean one would undergo second gender manifestation. Furthermore, those who did experience the second gender manifestation didn't all manifest in the same way. Typically, signs of upcoming changes would manifest as persistent low-grade fevers or pain over a few days, followed by a slow transformation while being sick for nearly a week. However, there were individuals who unpredictably spewed out all the pain in a single moment, undergoing a sudden change. […] The onset of the first in-heat period after manifestation varied as well. Some would not experience their first in-heat period for a long time after the second gender manifestation, while others would enter their in-heat period immediately after. The cause of this variance remained unknown despite research from previous lives. The only known fact was that those who awakened their power and experienced second gender manifestation simultaneously underwent the transformation with the least amount of pain. (156)

So what I’d argue second gender manifestation boils down to is:

You’re sick.

It hurts, depending on your combination of awakening/manifestation, that could be a lot.

You manifest as either Alpha or Omega.

You get a scent out of it.

The other important note that Yuder notes pretty much from the start of the novel is that no Awakener of the opposite gender should be present during the manifestation (28) as this causes “problems”. Problems is a very mild way of paraphrasing “sexual assault”. But let’s take a step back before we address that part and take a look at 3. first.

To boil it down, Alphas are capable of impregnating anyone of the opposite gender, while Omegas can get pregnant, either regardless of their first gender (3). Canon does not exactly elaborate on what that means for Alpha females or Omega males, beyond their body changing somehow. (I mean. 618 does, uh, imply cervix penetration IMO but let’s leave that discussion for another time.)

Yuder notes that “most Alphas felt a distinct desire only for Omegas” (37), but considering Yuder brings that up in the context of it being unfathomable why Kishiar is flirting with him, I’d not exactly consider that truthful, but more a reflection of Yuder not being able to grasp why Kishiar would want to do anything with him without his second gender manifestation forcing them. Additionally, at the time the novel was still going to include the concept of Betas.

Now, let’s get back to the word the novel continuously avoids, whether that is intentional, or a reflection of Yuder’s point of view, but even without spelling it out: rape is more than just alluded to.

When Yuder departs East with Gakane and Jimmy, Kishiar warns him that Jimmy shows signs of second gender manifestation. Yuder’s reaction to that is worrying whether this might prompt his own second gender awakening as there are rumors that somebody experiencing second gender manifestation might trigger another (112). This is more or less confirmed later during Beltreil’s research (132).

His second, more concerning worry, is whether Gakane, an Alpha Awakener, might become a threat if Jimmy manifests as an Omega (68). Why is it a problem if Gakane is there if Jimmy, who is twelve, manifests as an Omega? Yuder speaks of the need to be strong enough to isolate them (68). What this spells out to me is, in the end, Yuder worrying about whether Jimmy’s second gender manifestation would trigger Gakane and whether this might escalate into Gakane assaulting him. This is, frankly speaking, absolutely horrifying. Jimmy is a kid, everyone treats him like a kid when it concerns potentially emotionally damaging topics (67) and Gakane is probably even more of a green flag than Kishiar.

Yuder is, plainly, worried about an instinctual reaction and lack of control. Now the question is, is this realistic?

Hate to say it, but Turning hasn’t really given us much to prove the opposite. First of, in universe people don’t know much about second gender awakening in the first place, never mind what it means for someone so young.

It is said that when Jimmy manifested “many were worried about his manifestation at such a young age, [but] Jimmy rather enjoyed it” (116). This does fit a little more with the vibes we get when Gakane and Jimmy talk about his second gender manifestation earlier. When Jimmy worries about his manifestation, he links it to becoming an adult. That reads a lot more like the discourse surrounding preconceived notions about what starting to menstruate is like/means (89). So it could honestly be that Jimmy, or any kid, awakening as an Omega around an adult second gender awakening triggers more “yeah that’s a kid, gotta take care of the kid” instead of anything sexual, but neither we nor Yuder knows that.

What we do know is the opposite.

Yuder is more than just apprehensive of his own second gender manifestation. During the first timeline, Yuder’s second gender manifestation is sudden and overlaps with Kishiar’s near heat, causing Kishiar to lose control. Yuder describes him as “beast-like” (301) and he hardly has any memories of the incident.

While he was tangled up, he did not know whether the place had changed or whether days and nights had passed, but he continually felt as if something inside him was being ripped apart and was being messily mixed with something that came from outside. The pain, as if something unseen and ragged pieces were arbitrarily stitched together. (301)

None of the words Yuder uses to describe his second gender manifestation are kind. If anything, they make me a little nauseous.

Yuder, however, could not comprehend the 'pleasant moments' they referred to. He failed to see what was refreshing or enjoyable about losing control of oneself. For him, being a second gender Awakener was a source of agony. The single heat experience that had come and gone with his manifestation was a source of shame, and the powerless time when he could not control himself was a horror he did not even wish to imagine in dreams.

He speaks of pain, a loss of control, shame – it summons the image of suffering from the aftereffects of a date rape drug. He barely remembers what happened to him, he recalls the dizzy aftermath.

Why did the traces of that path feel like screams? […] It was the pain of a naive and awkward emotion dying. He didn't know what he had hoped for, but he knew he hadn't wished for this, and thus, a mournful moan escaped him. (613)

Yuder very much did not consent to this and didn’t want it – and neither did Kishiar! Turning has done an incredibly good job at leading up to this, pointing out the loss of control. Much earlier already, Yuder remembers part of the conversation he has with Kishiar in the aftermath, during which Kishiar apologizes and affirms it’s not Yuder’s fault and also that he doesn’t know what happened, but that he will figure it out (142, 159). We know Kishiar figured something out for sure, even if not everything, but that also makes you wonder. We know they kept hooking up, we also know that Yuder carries the trauma of that experience with him. When he experiences his second gender manifestation in the second timeline, he’s afraid and thinks the outcome is almost inevitable.

"Yuder Aile. Whatever you're afraid of now, I promise it will never happen. Won't you trust me?" [...] Overwhelmed by heat, self-loathing, and confusion, Yuder sighed and closed his eyes. Even his gasping sounds felt disgustingly repulsive, making his stomach churn (160).

It’s not, but we also know Kishiar was holding himself to an unexpected degree and had the luck of not being near his own heat cycle.

Additionally, we know that Yuder wants guidelines on how to handle second gender manifestations because of incidents in the first timeline. It’s not entirely impossible that similar situations of (near) mutual non-con happened.

And this, finally, brings us to a part of the novel that I honestly when I read was appalled, but didn’t fully grasp until later.

The Apeto Experiments

Beltreil’s experiments are absolutely horrifying. We don’t actually see the experiments themselves, but we learn the results of his experiments. The goal was to figure out whether Awakener children could fix the curse on their bloodline (462), which is why they were so keen to get second gender awakeners (95).

What Beltreil concludes from the experiments is this:

Second gender manifestation in one Awakener, can trigger the same in another non-manifested one. (132)

In Alphas and Omegas who have reached their mating cycles, sexual attraction always occurs, though to varying degrees. (184)

Even if one party is not in heat, sexual attraction can occur, but the probability of copulation appears to be extremely low if one party is in a normal state. (184)

Pregnancy does not always result from copulation between Alphas and Omegas who have reached their mating cycles. (184)

Physical reactions manifest such as scent, along with heightened senses, sexual arousal, excessive protectiveness, a sense of unity surpassing camaraderie. (184)

Awakeners who have manifested their second gender become vulnerable during heat. (184)

The chance of a child being born between second gender Awakeners is extremely low. No child has been born safely, resulting in either miscarriage or in the sudden death of the parent. (462)

And then we have to ask, how exactly did Beltreil conclude all of this? Well, the way he came about his results is written down quite directly.

He had gathered powerless commoners who had Awakened from all over the empire, almost kidnapping them. Initially, he attempted to transform himself into an Awakener by exchanging his blood with theirs, but after failing, he moved on to forcing Awakeners with second gender to conceive children, with the intention of observing the process. (462)

Or to put it more plainly: He locked them in a cell and forced people to rape each other, probably either under conditions similar to Kishiar and Yuder’s case waiting for them to lose control, or by forcing them. During the trial, one Awakener brings up many dying due to “vomiting blood due to the drugs they were forced to consume, drugs that were purported to induce heat period” (209).

Just carefully read through the list above, and try to imagine under what circumstances you’d find the conditions for this. While we can’t be sure this is particularly correct – Kishiar notes how inhuman the conditions of these experiments were and that these writings should not be believed – he does put some belief in it, considering how careful he is not to knock Yuder up (462, 620).

Beltreil started his experiments a year ago, so just a year after Awakeners appeared. For there to be miscarriages to happen which even resulted in the death of the parent, suggesting they probably happened later during the pregnancy, he probably rather quickly stopped the whole blood transfusion and switched over to assault. In the first timeline, Yuder never learns of this, but he isn’t particularly shocked this was happening either. At the very start, Yuder already notes that some omegas “were even kidnapped and used as sexual playthings by aristocrats who coveted rare and peculiar possessions” (3).

So now let’s talk about what the Orr Empire (didn’t) do about this.

Laws and Regulations in the Orr Empire

So Yuder notes that “in the past, laws could only be established after numerous accidents had occurred” (38) and that he “had gone through a lot of trouble to push through regulations and laws related to the second gender, against the opposition of greedy nobles” (68). From this we conclude that in the first timeline, due to Kishiar mcfucking dying, Yuder was the one pushing for laws and regulations regarding second gender manifestation, but probably Awakeners in general.

They have to deal with kidnapping, human experimentation, slavery, assault – a continuously long list of hurt. And this is in the Orr Empire – the best place to be an Awakener on the continent. Every other country is worse, except, perhaps, Nelarn later on, because Ejain is an Awakener himself.

One of the issues Yuder also had is that “there were hardly any scholars conducting proper research on the abilities and physical changes of the Awakeners and it was nearly impossible for the leader of the Cavalry, who came from a commoner background, to correct misconceptions and prejudice alone” (68).

This is important because this means that the preconceived notions of Awakeners are what determine the law. Omega Awakeners are weak, Awakeners in heat are sexual beings.

Yuder notes that “rumors began to circulate that perverse, wealthy individuals were buying Omegas for their alleged enhancing or aphrodisiac properties, even though no evidence supported such claims” (585).

If you really want to push it through, then laws and regulations are needed because otherwise you could – and I’m sure that in universe they did – argue that it isn’t assault if an Awakener is in heat. They’re asking for it, after all.

And Yuder in the past did what he could, from having rooms set aside for people to safely spend their heat for example.

During his time as a Commander, Yuder used various local branches as shelters to protect Omegas going through their heat periods. Anyone experiencing an impending heat period could visit a Cavalry branch, receive sleeping medicines, and use the isolation facilities. (585)

The fact that this was necessary, speaks miles about the conditions at the time were like. So it makes sense that Kishiar, now in the second timeline, quickly wants to bring about proper laws concerning Awakeners as there is “still no formal law concerning those with the second gender” (520), even if we know that by 583 they’re working on it – one can only assume that once Kishiar and Yuder get back from the North, Keilusa’s clean up will have included some changes towards that.

Conclusion

Do I have a final conclusion? This is already 2k longer than I wanted it to be. I think in the end, what this essay boils down to can be summoned up as “the treatment of second gender Awakeners was horrific” and “a lot of Yuder’s reactions and beliefs regarding his own second gender (manifestation) can be directly traced back to this.

[kishiar-la-orr]

"Your Majesty, I would like to discuss a method that could make the newfound light you've acquired easier to manage. I am certain you will be pleased to hear it... Furthermore, I would like to accept the caring concern you've previously suggested, and hope to dine with you tonight at the First Palace of Sun Palace. Someone from Dawn Palace will contact Your Majesty."

(575)

[nopko-deactivated20241004]

noooo babe don't argue with the Emperor haha kill me instead to prove your loyalty

[kishiar-la-orr]

"I have never had such a thought, and I probably never will. The only thought I have right now is just one."

The man whispered, asking if he knew what it was. As Yuder slowly shook his head, a voice, lowered enough to be just audible, reached his ears.

"The thought of surviving well in the future, and how to see the precious laughter of the one I love for a long time."

(626)

[roseniji2704]

Maid Yuder my son 💕💕🥹

[kishiar-la-orr]

"Hmm... Somehow, I feel like even if this were all a dream, I'd believe it," Kishiar mused.

Yuder remained silent.

"When I caught your scent carried by the wind five days ago, my head felt dizzy. But now, here I am, comfortably sitting and being treated to a meal you prepared yourself. If I had to choose which feels more like a dream, it would definitely be this moment."

(621)

[mintjeru]

"but if you turn around now. then, i'll kiss you according to my conviction."

bonus:

open for better quality | no reposts

[canon-toaster]

I got a vision and i drew it

[kishiar-la-orr]

"There are many types of fear. The instinctive, intuitive fear for life engraved in our instincts.

Or the vague fear of imagination, like fearing ghosts or spirits. And many more. I'm not afraid of a knife at my throat or ghosts, but there's one thing. I've often thought it frightening to face an ambiguous yet foreseeable future."

(625)

[kishiar-la-orr]

"Are you sure it's not that you feel pressured by my invitation to have tea?"

"I have no idea what you're talking about."

His heart skipped a beat, but Yuder feigned calm and replied as if he didn't understand what was being said. Thankfully, Kishiar didn't pursue the matter further, although he did tilt his head with a look of dissatisfaction.

"Something I said clearly didn't sit well with you... I can't guess what it might be, so I suppose it can't be helped. Very well. If you insist so strongly."

(103)

[corvidaes-crow]

give me a new name

Let it remind the future versions of us that you once cared enough to call me something so laden with meaning. Let it sit in the chasm between us with everything else you used to shape me for your use. Let it curse the way I turned from you regardless. Let it fester in the gaping wounds you tore from me. Let it spook me like your peripheral silhouette, like the remnants of you staining my bath water. Let it haunt me. Let it hurt me.

You forever haunt me

[canon-toaster]

i’m only like 80 chapters in and my brain got overturned (positively)🧍‍♀️

idk if Kishiar would wear animal hide but yk, it looked very fancy 🙏

[kishiar-la-orr]

in defense of first game kishiar,

turning is a finely crafted story. kuyu makes sure to ground every single one of their characters to the world that they live in, the world the story happens in.

today (as always) i am gonna talk about kishiar, but more specifically kishiar and his relationship to mortality, recontextualizing the things he did in the first game and all. super special humongous gigantic thanks to @kouraissant for helping me with this and bearing with my nonstop kishiar and mortality thoughts!

a lot of the things i'll be talking about also involves a degree of personal experiences and maybe a healthy dash of self-projection. as a disclaimer, you don't have to agree with me on anything and everything, but i'd rather some of the more personal parts to not be responded to rudely or unkindly. i will not tolerate that, sorry.

usual kishiar & mortality tw: canonical suicide attempt discussion, canonical self-harm, canonical death. be wary of spoilers.

1TL = first game/pre-regression/first timeline 2TL = second game/post-regression/second timeline

kishiar is a really fascinating character and his relationship with mortality moreso. a lot of the things that kishiar does, in my opinion, is very much colored by his circumstances growing up, specifically being born with the knowledge that second, third, etc. imperial children tend to be die young as if having 'major defects' be it physical or mental (ch 109) and ended up having no power, remaining unmarried and bowing their heads their whole lives (ch 14).

that is to say, all his life, he surely knows he can die quickly and easily, almost anytime. it's true that for everyone, death does come suddenly, but in kishiar la orr's life, death is like a childhood friend you don't like but are forced to get along with. again, this colors his whole life. this is the kind of circumstances that forces you to mature really quickly, to learn to be expressive and speak your thoughts like it's your last day, but to also learn to hold your tongue and bow down your head because you're a prince and your words still have consequences beyond normal children's would. you're forced to accept that this is the kind of life you will live and the kind of death you'll be documented as. by all accounts, i think that the current kishiar is really good at managing social situations however tricky they are, the fact that he's a rizzmaster, part of all those also comes from being used to having to process things quickly because you don't have the time to even live, being used to having to be expressive because god knows when your last day will be.

given all that as a background information, let's reexamine the conditions of 1TL.

i'd like to first point out that in 1TL, the very health and life expectancy that he used to not have pre-awakening was already given to kishiar during the awakening. i'm not too privy yet with the circumstances during the two years since the fall of the red stone to the cavalry recruitment in early canon, unfortunately, but i'll assume it was also time spent preparing and not just in silence, maybe even preparing for the cavalry to be created or searching for a cure for keilusa as well (though this is just personal theory). even so, two years really isn't that much time? soon after his awakening and tasting good health and better life expectancy the first time in his life, 1TL red stone retrieval mission happened, which forced kishiar to withdraw the divine sword without him meaning to and regained him the same vessel issues he's always experienced his whole life, basically bringing him back to square one after giving him the one thing he's always wanted his whole life. it's like the universe telling him: "look at everything you could have once had. endless possibilities. none of them are yours. not anymore."

to me, after at least 600+ chapters of reading, kishiar's character's basis is his loved ones. almost all of his actions can be traced back to him doing it in alignment with the position he has (being a prince and a duke) and out of the love he has for nathan, keilusa, and other people in his life. to be brought back to square one, struggling once again with the same old vessel issues, except worse this time, because many of the past imperial children didn't even make it to age thirty (ch 109) while he was already 29 and he almost died once already because of this very same thing.

expanding on his past experience with vessel issues and his response to it, from chapter 602 and chapter 160, likely kishiar's condition was so bad he might as well be almost dead before the timely awakening happened and immediately was followed by his second gender manifestation. he probably thought it was for real his death happening, not a surprise. he cleared off everyone and attempted suicide by touching the divine sword. that he cleared off everyone can also be argued as a selfless action, wanting to keep the smallest person possible to witness his impending doom, in order to save his loved ones from the heartache of seeing him suffer, try to kill himself and/or die.

it can also however be seen as selfish. after all, who is it that loves you and wants you to kill yourself?

this is where we will have to reiterate some points: kishiar is someone who's good at processing and expressing emotions. he's also good at knowing how to hold back and when to hold back from expressing said emotions. he's also someone who is logical and reasonable. and i also want to introduce some new points, that is: the universal fact that a lot of mental strain and generally bad mental health often cause irrationality in people, even someone who's perceived as reasonable or someone who's good at emotions. spiralling is called spiralling for a reason.

from the point of view of reason, leaving your cavalry commander mantle to the hyper-competent guy you happen to love to death, watching him get inaugurated, constantly visiting him, and of course, the pethuamet fight (which yuder 2TL classified as kishiar self-harming) are all illogical. kishiar's 1TL actions cannot be called reasonable or logical because they aren't. they are irrational the same way you and i get irrational when we're in extreme emotional duress. can anyone really claim to be logical when the threat of death looms so closely you can't even see it clearly anymore?

let's talk about some more things, like how the commander uniform he personally tailored for yuder (ch 625) is seen as yuder as unnecessary. logistically speaking, it really is unnecessary, it's not like yuder needed a new uniform when he can just wear kishiar's old ones and it'd probably just need some adjusting to fit better? but then it is explicitly stated by 2TL kishiar as 'hoping the person will wear them and think about the person who made it.' (ch 626)

also on the same conversation, 2TL kishiar stated that the strongest fear he has ever felt was during the late emperor's funeral, the feeling of being powerless, how frightening it was to look at the reality in front of him while he could only imagine what would happen to him, keilusa and the country in the future (ch 625). and in chapter further back, he also stated that in the tactical game, in the event that his special piece is almost caught by the enemy before he can use it, he would 'take the initiative and put it out as a bait in front of the enemy' (ch 105).

it paints a picture of this: it's not that he wants to do all these things, it's that who knows how to deal with death and the mental strain that comes with it when there are no actionable steps you can take, nothing under your control? he has a history of harming himself too, as i said, with the suicide attempt. in kishiar's case, the self-harm and the manifestation/post-awakening incident when he tried to kill himself, everything feels a bit more like struggling to feel a semblance of control in a world that is out of his control, when even his body feels out of his control all his life.

really, all of the things that can be deemed illogical, like ruining his relationships with everyone just so they feel less pain when he dies or like selfishly leaving yuder a legacy to care for or constantly visiting yuder even after his retirement, it stems from the selfish and very human desires of wanting to keep the loved ones near while he has time, trying to wrestle for a semblance of control, trying to leave anything useful at all that is within his capacity to give towards his loved ones for when after he's gone, grappling with all of the complicated emotions and love and care he has that he can't even act on. it's made even more complicated when you remember that kishiar isn't even suicidal originally. he's like this because of the circumstances thrusted upon his hands, he's only driven to that point because maybe he too doesn't want to die a dogshit death.

the upside is just because it's illogical doesn't mean it's treated callously or looked down upon. 1TL kishiar's actions are written beautifully by kuyu and never in a negative light. yuder himself has gripes about 1TL kishiar, but never outright insulted or downplayed his influences. if anything, the way yuder thinks of 1TL kishiar's actions, especially after knowing the imperial family's vessel issues, is very sympathetic (ch 293). in the words of our friend baby potat aloo,

like: look at this man trying to wrangle with his own tragic fate as best as he can while people he cares about most and people who care about him are unfortunately subjected to the pain of passively spectating his self-destructive ways of trying to gain some semblance of control (thinking of nathan and uuder) and/or secretive plans that seem like the 'best' choice in his opinion. nonetheless it's still about love.

that has been a long discussion over kishiar and mortality, kishiar and his loved ones as the basis of his motivation for every action. but let's not forget to talk about yuder, the one he has an almost-electric connection, deep and soulful, to. in a way, chapter 291's kishiar dialogue line "i feel like i can live now" can be seen as something he says out of love for yuder, because yuder is one of his loved ones, one of the ones he treasures the most. but also you can see it as another control thing. he's there out of his own accord, he came there through the window without being seen out of his own choice and yuder always 'tolerated' the situation, never reporting it. we can argue these are games and rendezvous they both consented to.

next, let's discuss: this is what he said in chapter 46, right before his death:

"...I wonder where it all went wrong. Thinking about it, it seems like it was when we retrieved the Red Stone." "..." "Yes... That's right. It must have been then that everything started going wrong. But even knowing that, I couldn't stop it. Because I had no other choice."

it rings so much of hopelessness, of someone who can't do anything but imagine a universe where the only thing he wanted in life was ripped away from him the moment it was bestowed. and then immediately dismissing it because it doesn't matter when it's already happened and the only thing he can do now is, just like the dukes before him, bow down his head and await for his death.

in later chapters, we also come to know that he cleared off the entire building and it was nearing his birthday when the assassination took place. we can also argue that this is euthanasia or assisted suicide, the executioner and helper is the one kishiar loves the most, who doesn't even really want to kill him. rather than a dogshit death he didn't choose, 1TL kishiar arranged it so that he dies in yuder's hands, knowing that it'd change his relationship with someone he loved so much, to die like a euthanised dog, spared the pain of unattainable hopes. in a way, it's a curse on yuder's memories, good or bad, of him, in a way, it's an act of making yourself an open wound. this too isn't rational, similarly to the way he leaves a personalized clothing for yuder's inauguration and new status as the cavalry commander or the way he gave him a name, this is a way of leaving behind a legacy, a desperate act of wanting to be remembered by his loved ones.

so, what's the point of all of this? nothing, i'm just a kishiar shooter. but also, everything. because the miscommunication in 1TL isn't one that can be so easily solved by speaking up. it's something that's integral to the story plotline, caused by the story circumstances, it's a testament too to how good kuyu's writing is and the complexity of kishiar as a character. it is, unfortunately, not as simple as just say you love him before you die. that is my conclusion.

some more unrelated, but perhaps also fun points:

i truly think, like a true self sabotage, kishiar's actions as an attempt to feel some semblance of control only works against him, making him feel more powerless and out of control

also this is for sure why he's so invested in healing keilusa

to another degree, cavalry in 2TL becomes his purpose and one of the major factors of his identity (the way it was to yuder 1TL, which is a discussion for another time), so in 1TL, stepping down could arguably also be seen as a loss of both authority/power and responsibility, leading to an even more 'out of control' feeling, even if he was indeed the one to step down out of his own accord, like no one forced him

1TL yuder was looked down on as a male omega leader, not man nor woman, commonborn cavalry commander who slept his way up. a lot of the things he did, even down to his fighting style, was also, to a certain point, a way of fighting for power, to look powerful and gain authority and be feared, if not respected. at the same time, kishiar didn't die instantly. he committed a lot of actions (as said earlier) that felt more like a grappling with control, which is just another form of power/authority. in a way, you can see these two foiling each other at the moment, struggling with power over how ppl perceive you (yuder) vs struggling with power over how you perceive yourself (kishiar). which is also funny because turning is also a story about power to me, what-with the catalyst to all of canon's plot being the red stone, which granted power to the people living in turning's canon universe

thanks for reading!