Fuck The Show, Seriously

an Amazon salt blog. about//faq//dni

[middle-earth-mythopoeia]

I'm out of the blue here but why do Tolkien fans hate Rings Of Power? How is it damaging his work and legacy?

We don't hate it because it's damaging Tolkien's work or legacy, which stand on their own merits. We hate it because it's an awful adaptation that treats his world and characters horribly. We hate it because it's made by a company that utterly betrays Tolkien's values and showrunners who have arrogantly compared themselves to him as if they're on his level. Not only that, ROP is being shoved down our throats: it's all over online spaces, it's mentioned in Tolkien-related news articles that have nothing to do with it, and ROP images have even been plastered on the covers of Tolkien's books just to make more money for Amazon. I have more than a few criticisms of Peter Jackson's films, but they all pale in comparison to the criticisms I have of this dumpster fire of a show and the company that made it. ROP has tried to present itself as diverse, but it actually has extremely regressive writing and tokenistic casting, not to mention abhorrent labor practices because it's made by fucking Amazon. Its plotlines and dialogue and internal consistency are shit. Despite an absurdly high budget, its production value is also shit. Even if it were a standalone fantasy series that had nothing to do with Tolkien and we weren't comparing it to canon, the whole thing is embarrassingly, sickeningly bad. Does this answer your question?

[lotronprimesucks]

The casting isn’t just regressive and tokenistic, the show is actively racist - it takes concepts that were already racist and/or otherwise problematic in the source material and codifies them and makes them worse.

This is actually my biggest problem with the Jackson films, too, but there it’s somewhat reduced because (frustratingly) the only visibly nonwhite people are in the last two films in nonspeaking “enemy combatant” roles and the heroes have nothing to say about them except that they’re servants of Sauron (“wicked men”, Gollum calls them, and Gandalf speaks of “legions of Haradrim from the south”, and while there is some truly horrific behind the scenes dialogue about these men from Jackson and his team none of it gets into the film).

In Rings of Power, the “more dangerous and less wise” Silvan elf is played by a black man while the Noldor are white. The only black character of any serious note in Númenor is a woman who is doomed to die immediately and whose story is defined by a man stealing her power. Sauron is a white man so we don’t even get to see an actor of color portraying a sexy, charismatic trickster villain like early Loki. The Barrow-wights aren’t Celtic-inspired anymore, they’re Orientalist caricatures. The men of Rhun and the eastern lands are portrayed as shifty and shady, playing up orientalist and racist stereotypes, even though the men of Rhun are confirmed to be kindred to the heroic Three Houses of the Edain in LotR’s Appendices.

(I’m also going to say that there is a lot of straightwashing happening in the writing of this show, and a complete inability for the writers to conceive of a woman having motivations apart from romance or family when the women this show is literally about were politically ambitious on their own and at most saw romance and family as secondary to their own goals. I don’t care how awesome it is that Galadriel owns her feelings or whatever - she was not romantically motivated in the books. Tar-Míriel, in most of her drafts, was completely devoid of any romantic connection to anyone at all, and her ship tease chemistry with Elendil just puts her in a box of “girl who is in love”. Bronwyn is a sad replacement for Andreth, who was in love with an elf but who used that love to speak out against elvish condescension and engaged in philosophical debates with a king and who earned the title of “the Wise” all on her own.)

It would be really exciting, even for an Amazon-led project, to see talented writers start addressing Tolkien’s prejudices head-on. It would be very cool to see something like The Last Voyage of the Demeter where the racism and sexism in the narrative is reexamined and taken apart and challenged and space is made for all kinds of people and power is given back to the marginalized. But they’re not interested in doing that. They were only ever using the diversity for marketing purposes - the show is fundamentally prejudiced, and that’s why I can’t support it.

[sunb1eeder]

i think we should start beating these people with sticks

[anti-rop]

“The canons of narrative in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.” - J.R.R. Tolkien in Letter #210

[lotronprimesucks]

Adding these tags from @jaybarou :

Once again we have exploitation of Tolkien’s IP for capitalistic purposes.

[prying-pandora666-deactivated20]

Concerning Orcs

I think the problem with how Rings Of Power is handling the orcs isn’t that they tried to give them any depth.

The idea that orcs breed as humans do is canon to Tolkien.

The idea that orcs are slaves and resent their masters is canon to Tolkien.

So what is the issue? Well…

It’s the ham-fisted and over the top execution.

Orcs cuddling their babies and crying over not wanting war throws out everything that makes orcs interesting and difficult to deal with. Orcs ARE victims in that they’re elves that have been twisted and enslaved and made violent, but at this point they are invasive raiders that live in violent hierarchies decided by strength.

They oppress one another just as they are oppressed by the Dark Lord because he has spent generations on an evil eugenics experiment.

Torture and selective breeding have been applied to the point where the orcs replicate the same behavior inflicted on them onto others, including fellow orcs. If orcs just wanted happy families and peaceful communities, it would be easy to sign a treaty with them and be done with it.

But that glosses over the depths of evil done to them.

In trying to be progressive and make us sympathize with the orcs, the execution instead seems to say that generations of traumatic torture, cultural diaspora, forced selective breeding, and enslavement would have NO LASTING CONSEQUENCES outside of physical appearance.

Nonsense.

It inadvertently acts as apologism for enslavement, torture, and colonization by saying it doesn’t affect people that deeply.

When Tolkien wrote his regrets about the orcs and not wanting any race to be wholly irredeemable, that wasn’t to remove any of their negative traits.

It is instead posing a far more difficult thought:

How *do* we help someone so far gone? So utterly destroyed to the point they don’t even recognize their current harmful behaviors as unnatural and forced upon them?

And that is a FAR more poignant and relevant question.

[balanceoflightanddark]

They took the lazy and over-the-top way out. If you reduce the orcs to "they have families and kids", then you don't have to put in the work of WHY they do evil. Not to mention put the blame squarely on Sauron's shoulders, even though the orcs were already around when he came to power. And ignoring how the orcs continued to be marauding bands of warmongering maniacs when Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second Age.

Which is kind of ironic. They're willing to throw in shades of gray in the conflict between Galadriel and Sauron, yet they take the most simplistic route with the orcs. So what is it then? You can't have a more complex narrative while pulling the "they have families" card. We should've explored WHY the orcs do evil. About how they're the product of generations of unceasing warfare to the point it's all they know. How they've earned the illwill of the Free Peoples through their atrocities both on their hands and when forced by others, making reformation next to impossible sine they fear violent retribution if they lose. The frustrations of being a race of slaves doomed to evil, so they'll take it out on those they feel are inferior. Obsessed with revenge and paying back every slight done to them no matter the circumstances or how self destructive.

If you want to make orcs sympathetic, you need to acknowledge how they're locked in this cycle of evil. See what the problem is, you know how to fix it. Which is what Tolkien excelled at by going in depth with how some turn to evil. Turn them into woob woobs, you kill any and all interest.

[prying-pandora666-deactivated20]

Perfectly said!

[prying-pandora666-deactivated20]

Rings of Power is Insidiously Sexist

And I’m tired of pretending none of us can see it.

If you enjoy the show, please don’t take this as an attack on you. All media has problematic elements and we all do the best we can in a messed up world. My ire is reserved strictly for the people making these “creative” choices.

The way the show treats Galadriel is misogynistic.

Turning the kind, matronly sage imbued with divine wisdom by the light of the two trees into a naive, selfish hothead who gets ship baited with both the villain AND her son-in-law for titillation is incredibly sexist.

They wouldn’t have had Elrond kiss his father-in-law to “save” him. Everyone would’ve rightfully been disgusted. So why is it okay to do this to Galadriel?

Elrond wouldn’t kiss Gil-Galad, or Celebrimbor, or his bff Durin to “save” them. We would all recognize this as sloppy OOC writing just meant to stir up shippers. So why is it acceptable to do to Galadriel? Being a female character is not an invitation to use her as fan service ship bait. Not once but TWICE.

The way the score swells and the kiss is deep and framed as romantic (even though he’s handing her something and didn’t need to shove himself on her like that at all!), despite the fact that Galadriel is married and elves are by nature monogamous (so much so that forcing yourself on them can even KILL them). As if everything about the narrative framing is subconsciously telling you to ignore Galadriel’s POV and the discomfort she would be feeling and be moved by how “meaningful” this kiss is. But also it’s a deception so don’t get mad! So incredibly transparent.

The fact that they also made her an arrogant idiot that fell for Sauron’s manipulations, when in Tolkien’s canon she is described as one of first to see through him, is also a telling choice. Especially when it would’ve made more sense to have Celebrimbor be the one manipulated and fooled.

So why have it be Galadriel? Why not do their weird ship-teasing bullshit between Annatar and Celebrimbor? At least it might serve the story then.

It’s because she is “female elf”, and therefore she has to be mean, violent, selfish, and stupid. But she isn’t allowed to be criticized either! That’s their idea of a “strong” female character.

So yeah. Personally I find that incredibly sexist.

So for that, I rate ROP a big old “cast it into the fire”.

[aprefrostedcake]

I respectfully disagree. Her character never came off to me as naive, selfish, or stupid. In fact, a lot of the criticism along those veins come from the same people that call her "Guyladriel" and endlessly shriek about "woke garbage". Definitely not saying you are that type, my point was that misogyny plays a significant role in people's interpretation of her character.

She wasn't an arrogant idiot for being deceived, just like Celebrimbor wasn't. Sauron is The Great Deceiver, and he molds himself into whatever the person he's using needs him to be. He took advantage of Galadriel's ambition, vengeance, and kindness (her freely given counsel and help was from compassion for Halbrand, after all). He let's her draw her conclusions and plays upon them for sympathy and assistance, a pattern we see play out again with Celebrimbor. It is only through her force of will that she rejects his offer after a whole season of manipulation.

Galadriel is a wonderfully compelling and complex character to me. I'm excited to see how her character grows to move past her self-deception and blindness and let her wisdom shine (which we have seen imparted to other characters like Isildur and Arondir in some of the best lines of the show). Leaving revenge behind and the dangers of pride strikes me as such a Tolkien-esque theme. And they are at the heart of her character flaws that so many people decry as stupidity.

I don't entirely disagree with you, far from it. I thought the kiss was pointless. And as for "Why not do their weird ship-teasing bullshit between Annatar and Celebrimbor?" Because Amazon are cowards and they fear the backlash of anything more "woke" than dark-skinned elves and female warriors, imho. There are overt themes of domestic violence and abuser/victim dynamic between Sauron and Celebrimbor, but that seems to be the furthest they'll go.

Whew, sorry for the lengthy rant. But I've been wanting to get this out and your post was a good opportunity.

[prying-pandora666-deactivated20]

With all due respect, the fact that racists and misogynists don’t like this show doesn’t change that the show itself is racist and misogynistic.

Let me ask you, out of all the characters they could’ve had be deceived by and have romantic tension with Sauron, why Galadriel?

In Tolkien’s canon, Galadriel was among the first to suspect Annatar. She warned others not to trust him. She is imbued with wisdom by the light of the two trees, is around 5,000 years old so she is among the older and more experienced elves (not a young elf still learning basics about the world by any means), and she is already married and soul-bonded to her husband. Why, out of all the characters, would anyone choose Galadriel for their Sauron “will they won’t they” deception? Is a female character not allowed to be the wise sage? Rather than force in Tom Bombadil, who canonically doesn’t concern himself with the world, and change him to be the wise sage who guides the wizard? Could not Galadriel have filled this role? They would rather butcher the characters rather than let the female character be the wise, revered character she actually is?

Why does Gil-Galad talk down to her? She’s his great aunt! Why does ELROND! He’s a baby compared to her!

It didn’t even forward the plot to do this. If anything, they wrote themselves into a corner by having Galadriel get ship baited with Halbrand, because then there was no good reason for her not to warn everyone except out of arrogance and selfish shame! If you get fooled by the devil, I don’t care how embarrassed you are, you have a duty to warn others. Galadriel, of all people, would know this. Why didn’t they have Celebrimbor be the one to have the “will they won’t they” romance deception with Sauron? Story-wise, it would make way more sense considering Annatar convinces him not to heed Galadriel’s warnings. Celebrimbor, canonically, has an unrequited love for Galadriel. Annatar could even play on that to manipulate Celebrimbor against her. As you said, they are too cowardly to depict anything gay, but they could’ve had Annatar shapeshift into a female form.

So why Galadriel? An already married elf in a race that is monogamous by nature? Why must she be the naive, arrogant fool deceived when it actively harms the story?

Why doesn’t she care for her comrades she travels with? Why does she dismiss them and their concerns? This isn’t the mark of a good leader. It doesn’t make her badass. It makes her egotistical and selfish. If this didn’t bother you, that’s alright, but it sure bothered me! Especially when she’s the tolerant one in Tolkien’s world who tells her people to stop being racists to Gimli!

Why did the writers contrive an excuse for Elrond to make out with Galadriel? His future mother in law? No really, what did it add? If you’re trying to slip a lock pick to someone, a hug would do it better than a kiss, where you can’t even see what you’re doing as well and move more carefully. A kiss ATTRACTS attention, it doesn’t distract. And the way the score swells makes it clear we are meant to see romantic and sexual tension here, not just a diversion.

So… what is gained by this decision? Using Galadriel for ship bait with her son in law—already off putting and unpleasant—when they could’ve written literally anything else! What does it add other than titillation? Who does it instruct the audience to empathize with? Because it isn’t Galadriel, seeing as the score and framing don’t evoke horror, discomfort, or even shock. It evokes romance. And to remind, Galadriel is married and elves are so monogamous by nature that being forced outside of their soul bond can even kill them in extreme circumstances.

It sounds like we agree on the Elrond kiss, which appreciate, because that was egregious! Why did Elrond have to kiss Galadriel and not literally anyone else? Why not Durin, his bff? Why not Celebrimbor, who also needs saving? If it was just a ruse, then it shouldn’t matter, right?

She is the ONLY prominent female elf and the most prominent female character period. And she is reduced to ship baiting not once, but TWICE.

When you remove all of the positive qualities from a female character and exploitatively use her for ship-baiting, when none of the male characters are subjected to that treatment, that’s sexism.

And again, I don’t fault anyone for consuming problematic media. There is now way to avoid it at some point. Studios don’t care about being progressive except to give lip-service.

But I do think it’s a depressing reflection of how misogyny is rising in the world. Which it is.

Either way, thank you for the civil discussion. I hope you have a lovey day regardless.

[lotronprimesucks]

I want to add (for the sake of full criticism) that Sauron canonically prefers to seduce men.

Celebrimbor’s unrequited love for Galadriel only exists in one draft - in most other versions of the story, he’s not attached to her in that way. But Sauron consistently prefers to focus on and entrap and trick men, as in people whose gender is “man”. He turns into Gorlim’s wife, he seduces Pharazôn and Celebrimbor (and what he does in the text is described as seduction!), he ensnares Isildur and Gollum/Sméagol and Bilbo and Frodo and Boromir through the Ring (with Galadriel as the only woman he ever has any contact with in that form and she IMMEDIATELY rejects him), he breaks and ruins Denethor and tries to do the same to Pippin.

Amazon didn’t have to present Sauron as explicitly and textually gay, but he doesn’t at any point in his life romance or prioritize contact with women. He’s instead canonically terrified of Melian and jealous of Lúthien taking up Morgoth’s attention. Adding in this unnecessary heterosexuality is a sign of the failures of the show to grasp that Tolkien’s work is queerer, or at least more inclusive of queer people, than you might assume at first glance.

[middle-earth-mythopoeia]

No, Amazon’s Rings of Power is not “woke”

It annoys me so much when people complain about Rings of Power being “woke.” First of all, because of the way they overuse the word, woke has become a next-to-meaningless term that can be applied to anything conservatives don’t like. Second, Rings of Power is only progressive in the most surface-level way; underneath that it is in fact extremely regressive. People who whine about Rings of Power being woke are not only annoying, they’re also just plain wrong.

Ever since the casting was announced, right-wing idiots have been shrieking about Black actors being cast in Rings of Power. These trolls have made all kinds of dumb statements about how Middle-earth = Europe, but they seem willfully ignorant of the fact that Europe has never been exclusively white, and there is no reason to exclude people of color from the cast of any Tolkien adaptation. Still, this didn’t make the show progressive in its casting (which was tokenistic) or its writing (which ranges from bad to horrible).

For instance, the only storyline Amazon writers could apparently think of to introduce Arondir was literally him being enslaved. I mean, really? Is that really the best plotline to go with? To be clear, I’m not criticizing the actor, I’m criticizing the writing. In addition, Amazon cast actors of color overwhelmingly in parts invented for the show—rather than as actual Tolkien characters—which more easily allows them to be sidelined by the narrative, and the casting overall was in no way diverse enough. So I find it bizarre that people criticize the show for its so-called wokeness, when very little effort was made from a diversity and inclusion standpoint.

Right-wing nutjobs also threw a fit about Amazon portraying Galadriel as a warrior, to the point where they started calling her “Guyladriel.” They whined about Galadriel being too feminist and too masculine in the show, but that’s the opposite of what happened and betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of Galadriel as a character. First of all, she fought at Alqualondë in one version of the story, so no one should have a problem with her wielding a sword. What IS a problem is everything else about her portrayal.

Amazon’s writers took one of Tolkien’s most interesting characters and stripped her of her power, her authority, her gravitas, her wisdom, and her ambition. They had Gil-galad, her younger cousin, order her around. They had Elendil compare her to his children, even though she’s older than the sun and moon. And they made her a petty, naïve, incompetent brat whose entire first season involves being manipulated by Sauron, and as if that wasn’t bad enough, having a bizarre will-they-won’t-they relationship with him. In addition, Galadriel is canonically tall and strong, and one of her names means “man-maiden,” but they made her short and waif-like instead.

Galadriel in Amazon’s show doesn’t even resemble the character Tolkien wrote—the character named Nerwen, who never trusted Annatar, who certainly never had some creepy Reylo thing with him, who was powerful and wise and authoritative, who had a marvelous gift of insight into the minds of others—not a quippy, rude, annoying idiot who is constantly being controlled by the men around her. I don’t know why anyone would look at Rings of Power and think this portrayal is progressive. It’s actually a failure of imagination: Amazon’s writers literally cannot conceive of a powerful woman even when all of the work of imagining her has been done for them.

In addition to the faux-feminist-and-actually-sexist portrayal of Galadriel, Rings of Power is also on the whole weirdly regressive from the standpoint of gender roles and gender expression. Tolkien’s Elves are canonically tall, beautiful, and long-haired, regardless of gender. Tolkien’s Dwarves all have beards. So what did Amazon do? They gave most of their male Elves short hair, while the female Elves still have long hair, and they did away with female Dwarves’ beards. They patted themselves on the back for “letting” Galadriel fight, but don’t show other female warriors—in battle scenes, for instance, why are all the soldiers male? In general, they made their characters adhere to conservative gender roles and gender expression, which is especially glaring because it contradicts what Tolkien actually wrote.

On top of all this, they decided to throw in some anti-Irish stereotypes with a side of classism, just for fun. They had the ragged, dirty, primitive Harfoots speaking in Irish accents, while the regal, ethereal, advanced Elves speak with English accents. None of the actors playing the Harfoots are Irish themselves, to my knowledge, which makes the choice to have them speak this way especially questionable. Seriously, who thought this was a good idea?

All in all, it makes absolutely no fucking sense to criticize Rings of Power for being woke. It may look progressive on the surface because there’s a Black Elf and a woman with a sword, but that’s as far as it goes. The show isn’t particularly diverse to begin with, and it treats its characters of color poorly. Galadriel’s portrayal is disgustingly regressive, as is the show’s overarching take on gender. This is to say nothing of the caliber of the writing in general, which is unsurprisingly low. There is so much to criticize—like the nonsense about mithril, or the fact that Celebrimbor of all people doesn’t understand alloys, or the fact that you can apparently swim across the Sundering Seas now—which makes complaining about the show’s supposed wokeness especially irrational.

I also have to wonder if the people still whining about wokeness know anything about Tolkien’s works. Do they know that the crown of Gondor was based on the crown of the Pharaohs of Egypt? Do they know that Tolkien considered Byzantium the basis for Minas Tirith? Do they know that female warriors already exist in Tolkien’s books? Do they know when they rant about how much they hate “Guyladriel” that Amazon’s portrayal is actually too feminine? Ultimately, people who complain about wokeness in Rings of Power—or any Tolkien adaptation—are just betraying their own idiocy. I honestly think if Tolkien’s books were published now conservatives would scream that they’re woke too.

[prying-pandora666-deactivated20]

THANK YOU!

There is nothing “woke” or “progressive” about this sexist swill! Stop listening to reactionaries and grifters! Just LOOK at the show and think about the changes they’ve made and if they benefit the story and characters or if they reduce the characters. Ask yourself why these changes have been made. They’re clearly not to service the story.

Amazon’s Rings of Power is corporate slop selling you regressive nonsense while smiling to your face that they “fixed” Tolkien.

What possible benefit could there be to taking a strong, wise, revered character like Galadriel and turning her into a naive, aggressive, selfish idiot who gets ship baited constantly? Who does this benefit?

It’s certainly not the girls and women who looked up to Galadriel, is it?

Who did it benefit to make the ONLY prominent elf of color (because the rest are all glorified background extras) a slave for his introduction? Why does he constantly get sidelined or the credit for his accomplishments get passed to others uncritically?

Why can’t female dwarves have beards? Why can’t female elves be tall? Amazon is lying to you same as Annatar. They LOVE the reactionaries because it gives them a shield to hide behind.

Don’t let them.

[prying-pandora666-deactivated20]

You can tell Rings of Power antis are heartless because they don’t even care how their mean critical posts are making Bezos cry into his Scooge McDuck vault of money. 😔

What’s that? Amazon just fired the entire writing staff for ROP except the showrunners? That's fine! Since when do writers need money? They don’t even have giant vaults to put it in, amirite?

[middle-earth-mythopoeia]

Uh, guys? Don't confuse your crappy televised fanfic for the story that Tolkien actually wrote.

Galadriel was never "under Sauron's thrall." That's something ROP made up. In Unfinished Tales, she was the only one in Eregion who suspected that Annatar was lying about being an emissary of the Valar. Celebrimbor was deceived by him. She was not. She was certainly not "under his thrall." No, not even because she had Nenya.

Yes, when Frodo offered her the One Ring, she was tempted. It could have given her the power to prevent the fading of Lothlórien. But when she makes this speech in the book, and in the Peter Jackson movies, it's her own thought, she's not repeating something that Sauron said to her once:

“You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”

These are Galadriel's words. Her words. Not Sauron's. And she was tempted by the One Ring because she could have been a more powerful queen, not Sauron's queen. Like, you guys really took one of the most powerful and complex female characters in Tolkien's works and you made her story all about a man and his power over her and his manipulation of her. Fuck off.

And stop tagging ROP as Lord of the Rings.

[middle-earth-mythopoeia]

Your tags passed peer review. And yes that is EXACTLY what Amazon did, they tried to make Galadriel's speech where she overcomes the ultimate temptation about that wet cat of a man. ROP had a scene where he asks her to be his queen (never mind that Sauron would never share power) and says he'll make her stronger than the foundations of the earth, etc., retroactively making it seem like her speech in FOTR is a callback to that. The loathing I feel for the Amazon writers is unparalleled.

[sasquapossum]

I've been part of a big discussion elsewhere about Rings of Power and the liberties they've taken with Tolkien's canon. As part of that, I posted this timeline (SA = Second Age, TA = Third Age).

To be clear, I don't particularly care about the timeline itself. I have never been one of those to say that nobody can change canon at all. In fact, I haven't seen anyone take that position. Here are some things that are fine with me, and AFAICT with most other hard-core Tolkien fans.

I welcome changes that improve representation of women (Arwen, Tauriel, Galadriel) or Black people (Arondir), gay people, whatever. Tolkien was a man of his time, but also a decent man. I believe that, had he lived longer, he might well have approved such changes or even made them himself.

I also don't mind if characters are omitted (Glorfindel and especially Tom Bombadil) or added (Adar) or given new names/identities (Halbrand, The Stranger) in ways that don't significantly affect the history of Middle Earth as already known.

I don't even mind some kinds of timeline changes. Should Elendil have been alive at the same time as Celebrimbor? Well, no, but it doesn't really matter.

What I do mind is changes that harm the narrative - either Tolkien's or their own or too often both. Some events have a cause-and-effect relationship, so reordering them leads to a nonsensical result. Some characters have thematically important natures, so putting them in situations contrary to that nature is also nonsensical. It's particularly crazy to be bringing in Third Age elements when the Second Age is already far too big and busy for a single series (what I consider to be RoP's "original sin" from which most others flow). Here are some more examples.

It doesn't make sense for Gandalf or Saruman to be in Middle Earth before the events that caused the Valar to send them (Sauron's Third Age rise in opposition to Arnor and Gondor).

Ditto for barrow wights in this time period (hinted at in teasers for episodes I haven't seen myself yet). The wights were canonically princes of Cardolan, reanimated and/or possessed by the Witch King of Angmar. Cardolan didn't even exist until the Third Age, and even in RoP's own timeline the Witch King doesn't (can't) exist yet, so again this makes no sense.

Portraying the Fall of Numenor before the creation of the rings is not only gratuitous (just an excuse for some CGI) but it's also going to make it very difficult to tell the full story - which BTW includes Sauron as a prisoner - later even in RoP's own timeline. I'd like to see that story, so that's a loss.

Having Tom Bombadil tutor Gandalf (also hinted at in spoilers) changes both characters into something else entirely. Gandalf was already thousands of years old and should need no such tutoring; his amnesia was already an unnecessary creation within RoP. Tom, to the extent that he's anything more than a last vestige of the Hobbit writing style, is an enigma intentionally placing himself above and beyond such worldly concerns. He is almost the anti-Istari so having him help one is just silly.

By making these changes, and many more, the RoP folks have made a muddled mess. It's the same mistake David Lynch made in his 1984 version of Dune, which was widely and rightly panned for ham-fistedly trying to cram much into too small a space. Amazon's changes not only do a disservice to Tolkien's canon, but they're degrading their own as well.

Another thing that infuriates me about this is the hypocrisy of the Tolkien estate. For decades, Christopher (Rot In Piss) and his successors have ruthlessly quashed any retelling of stories in Tolkien's world. I used to play LotR Online, which suffered under this yoke for years. I'm aware of multiple fanfic authors who were legally threatened for having dared to mention one thing in that canon. Then the estate turns around and approves a project that puts the entire history of Middle Earth in a blender? No, I do not accept such double standards. This is all a huge money grab, pure and simple.

I know that other people would draw the lines differently than I do. They would accept things that I don't, and vice versa. That's all fine. Live and let live, as I always say. I'm watching and enjoying the series, just as I have enjoyed others (e.g. Wheel of Time) that are inspired by Tolkien but not set in his world. But I also think I should be allowed to notice and have my own opinions about those things too. Apparently the RoP stans disagree. Literally all of the gatekeeping and all of the vitriol in these discussions have come from that direction. Even the worst Tolkien purists I've ever met accept that he had his flaws as a writer, and that adaptation to a new medium in a new time means some changes. They're not the problem; it's the people who think RoP takes precedence over Tolkien's own vision who are the problem.

[lotronprimesucks]

So something I want to point out is that the reason there are so many adaptational changes is because RoP does not have the legal rights to accurately adapt the story.

They purchased the television rights to the Appendices, but legally cannot depict (a. anything from the First or Third Ages (b. anything from the Appendices that is described in another book that currently does not have the rights for sale. The first is because the Silmarillion’s rights weren’t actually sold, the second is because Warner Brothers owns the rights to LotR proper. They can reference names and broad story structure concepts, but cannot adapt anything that was also retold in the “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age” or “Akallabêth” chapters of the Silmarillion, or the information on Númenor and Second Age Middle-Earth from Unfinished Tales.

This is why their version of the Second Age doesn’t and cannot accurately be an adaptation of the text, and why history is, as you said, in a blender. Now, I think a show can be good if it’s an inaccurate adaptation! Plenty of TV shows are good or at least watchable and addictive with serious source material changes. I would argue RoP has bad writing and pacing and fight choreography, and serious issues with sexism and racism that can’t be papered over with the inclusion of racially diverse or “strong” characters, but that’s a different question to judge a show on than its fidelity to the text. The reason it isn’t loyal is because it legally can’t be.

[middle-earth-mythopoeia]

Me: Rings of Power is a bad adaptation and I wish people wouldn’t support it, or Amazon.

The ROP fan throwing a tantrum in my notes: No, it’s not! Tolkien was a hack anyway! He was racist! Don’t you know he was racist?

Me: Yes, I am fully aware of Tolkien’s racism and I think analyzing the various forms of racism and prejudice in his works is important. I also think it’s worth analyzing how ROP has been used to sanitize Amazon’s image. The company has faced multiple lawsuits for racial discrimination against employees and they also literally sell Nazi propaganda, and I think that’s horrifying. They shouldn’t get kudos for a diverse cast when they do stuff like this. What I find odd is that you’re expressing more anger over the racism of a dead white guy than the ongoing racism of an existing company that is destroying the earth.

The ROP fan: You’re a cultist who refuses to criticize Tolkien! You’re a Nazi!

Me: Hmm, okay, you’re just fully unhinged. Cool.

[lotronprimesucks]

I also want to add that they don’t materially address Tolkien’s racism in a way that interrogates the flaws of the text. Their diverse casting has its own racist problems stemming from the fact that white writers don’t really know what the problems here are except “only white people were in the books/last adaptation” (neither of which are correct, but ah well), and isn’t doing anything to satisfy deeper criticism.

[lotronprimesucks]

completely unrelated to trop (love what ur doing here btw) but every time i see your username i read it as lotron prime and keep doing a very funny double take as i figure out what all the letters mean lol

Lotron Prime sounds like the worst Transformer ever

[technoturian]

Branching off of my RoP rant, I am completely unsurprised to find out that the showrunners and entire writing team are six white men and two white women after feeling the whole season that the women were underwritten and the POC felt token-ey.

I’m getting serious deja vu to the Star Wars Sequels from this whole situation. J.J. Abrams giving lip service about making something inclusive and everyone getting excited about the diverse casting and then we find out it was all calculated and performative, Finn becomes a joke and Poe becomes a stereotype and Rey is a Strong Female Character who doesn’t need narrative consistency she just needs a damaged white boy foil and a male relative to make her whole story about. The way everyone who criticizes it gets lumped in with bigots, which makes it super easy for them to be ~progressive~ without actually doing anything.

Seriously though:

- The obscene budget and corporate overlords looking to leverage it into merchandising/franchising.

- Comments about being super diverse but then the ~diverse casting~ is mostly side characters who aren’t given nearly as much narrative weight as the white characters.

- The Strong Female Lead who was clearly designed by white men, too busy punching her way through problems to listen to anyone or communicate effectively.

- The dark ~bad boy~ narrative foil who forms a ~connection~ with her and whose storyline somehow seems to have both the most time and least thought put into it of everything. (Sure dude, you were on that raft in the middle of of the sea on purpose. That makes total sense.)

- The shallow and unsatisfying writing. Scenes and dialogue written to make good trailers or twists but don’t make any sense when you’re actually watching them.

- A convenient shield for all criticism in the form of a large contingent of bigots who make it really hard to have legitimate conversations about its massive flaws, with the fans and the (reminder, white and male) creators being way too quick to let everyone know that if you don’t like it, it’s because You’re One Of Those.

The one difference is that we made fun of the Star Wars sequels for crashing and burning because they didn’t even bother to have an outline before they took off. Meanwhile RoP has actual cliffs notes to reference and they managed to make the same soulless mess of things. I’m not sure if that’s more impressive or less.

[overthinkinglotr]

Serious concerns raised in NZ about environmental impact of major productions including Amazon’s Rings of Power

In response to workers’ claims of high emissions and waste, Amazon says it complied with all laws and ‘either met or exceeded industry stand

Some quotes from an article on the environmental impacts of the “most expensive tv series of all time” (and the lotr franchise in general, or what it’s become)— it seems like a ton of Amazon’s unnecessarily bloated budget went to building expensive plastic sets sndndndnd

[lotronprimesucks]

I want to go into Tolkien tags so I can reblog edits and fancasts, and I want to follow source blogs, but I also have a policy of “block on sight if they reblog anything about RoP that isn’t criticism” and another, stronger policy of “block on sight if they reblog only white people and echo racist dogwhistles uncritically”

Is there any tag being used for JUST book content?

[middle-earth-mythopoeia]

ROP built their sets and sets need to be maintained. The orcs are mostly real prosthetics and some CGI. ROP generally speaking has quality CGI, which all costs money. Everyone keeps going on about the costumes and wigs to the point of ad nauseam without knowing anything about what goes into production. If it turns out to be true, then its one thing but people are getting their panties in a bunch pretending to be activists and its transparent.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but I'll answer it as best I can.

Whether they used CGI or prosthetics, the visuals looks bad. They just do.

Whatever went into production for the costumes and wigs, it looks bad. Maybe they made a huge effort, I don't know. They still failed.

When people ask, "Where did the money go?" what they're asking is, "How did they spend so much money and it still looks so cheap?" Honestly, it's a valid question.

Some of the costumes literally look like they were made out of $5 merchandise from a craft store. Except frankly I've seen a lot of cosplayers make better costumes on way less of a budget than Amazon had for this show.

Separately, Amazon is just a shitty company, and that's a well-known fact, and people aren't "pretending to be activists" when they point that out. Stunt workers were injured on the Rings of Power set and Amazon hushed it up. And that's just one thing. Amazon has years of history of abusing their employees... that's not news.

[lotronprimesucks]

House of the Dragon and Interview with the Vampire both have sets that look at least as good as those on RoP. Both series have budgets that are only a fraction of RoP’s, and both have succeeded in making costumes and props that look better than Amazon’s $600 million per episode money laundering scheme. I actually do know what goes into production and I’m still utterly flabbergasted at how much money is spent with no purpose on CGI, postproduction, and pointless slow-motion shots or expensive wide shots while the props and costumes and sets look like garbage.

This is a bad argument.

[sentimental-darkness]

Season 2?

The showrunners admitting season 2 is going to be more “canonical” including things most of us wanted to see in first season is the funniest thing ever. First, those people are clearly not capable of that, so it’s just BS with them at the helm. Second, they’re acting like we’re suddenly going to care about the show and its universe that in its first season was mishandled more badly and idiotic than season 8 of GoT? Really? Haha.

Amazon and the showrunners really are 100% delusional here… 

Bye bye Amazon Studios, I guess.

[lady-byleth]

Like, listen. Listen, okay. The moment I learned they were making Galadriel's character revolve around needless revenge over a man (her brother who is currently happily traipsing across Valinor because that's how death works for elves) I was already mad enough to never touch RoP with a ten foot pole

But this? Taking one of her most iconic lines and attributing it to Sauron? I am livid.

The real Galadriel, the book Galadriel, was always an ambitious woman. She left Valinor to rule a realm of her own, to shape a land the way she thought right. She watched her male relatives do shit and was like "I can do better" and that's what she did

She was driven, intelligent and gifted, she was one of the greatest things that ever happened to the elves, and it all came from herself.

But now they changed her story. This Galadriel isn't traveling Middle-earth to find a place for herself, she's traveling it to avenge a man who doesn't need avenging. And then Sauron pops up and tells her she could be a queen "stronger than the foundations of the earth"? The line she originally said about herself?

The way this is all set up makes it look like a man planted the idea in her that she could be a queen, a man tempted her into becoming a queen, and then continued to tempt her until she refused the ring.

Her whole thing in the books was overcoming the temptation of power and choosing what was right and good. But it wasn't the ring that she needed to beat, she needed to overcome the desires and ambitions inside herself that the ring was using against her

She was her own greatest enemy and she won.

But now they made it all revolve around a man. A man gave her the idea, a man tried to tempt her, a man is who she quotes when she's overcoming temptation...

Do I really need to spell out why the story of a woman whose biggest enemy is herself being changed to so heavily focus on a man's effect is bad? Do I really??

[lotronprimesucks]

On top of that, now what’s given Sauron an in to the Ringmaking and what’s given him influence over elvendom and over Middle-Earth is a Hysterical Woman Who Was So Distracted By A Hot Man That She Forgot To Be Aware Of The Danger.

That take was ice cold in 3200 BCE, so I’m not sure why it’s being trotted out again here.

[glitteringaglarond-deactivated]

I’m going to say one thing about the fandom aspect of rop, and then continue quietly reblogging posts roasting the show itself.

For some context: I have been a fan of the LOTR movies from the moment I first laid eyes on them 20 years ago, but literally nothing makes me more angry than what PJ did to Faramir. I have refused to watch his scenes in TTT for 15+ years because of how angry it makes me. (I literally even walked out of the theater during those scenes when I watched a screening of it this week!)

However, I am still more than capable of being friends and having a civil conversation with people who like movie!Faramir, even if I will make my opinions on the subject pretty clear.

With that context: I keep on seeing people going around saying that we need to not gatekeep fans who come in through this show, and in concept I do agree with that… after all, I have some experience being friends with people and welcoming people even if they prefer movie!Faramir to book!Faramir. That is not anything that is difficult, and I don’t think it’s something that’s hard for most people.

But I do feel like an important addendum is being missed.

I will “gatekeep” people who insist on telling me I am a bad person for not liking the show.

We have all seen the type - shill media (in particular) that smeared JRR Tolkien’s name, bashed Christopher Tolkien, hid behind the diversity of their cast and said that only racists dislike what they are doing (even though there are six trillion things wrong with the show that has absolutely nothing to do with people’s skin color). And the fans that come in through that shill media lens are ones that I have no interest in interacting with, in becoming friends with, or in welcoming.

I am not going to seek out people who join the fandom through this show. And I am not going to harass them. Because above all I am against harassing people. I am not going to reblog any fanart or gifsets or fanfics they make with mean comments. I will be kind and polite and welcoming if I end up in a conversation with them.

But the second I am told I am a bad person for disliking rop, I no longer welcome you. You do not get to enter this fandom and immediately tell people who were here before rop that they are terrible people.

That is where I draw the line.

If you don’t do that and enter the fandom through watching rop, I might question your taste but I will welcome you with open arms and will hope to help introduce you to the wealth of incredible stories that await you in the books.

If you do do that, while I still will not seek you out or harass you, I will not welcome you either.

[lotronprimesucks]

Also, honest criticism - including roasting something that’s of bad quality, and picking apart the problems with the writing and the structure and the story choices! - isn’t gatekeeping. Saying “objectively, this isn’t very good television and it’s a bad Tolkien adaptation, so as a Tolkien fan I can’t call it worth my time” isn’t gatekeeping. Asking that people who like the show respect the fact that enjoyment is subjective and a fandom is allowed to agree something is bad isn’t gatekeeping.

Nobody is seriously saying “if you come to Tolkien through RoP, you’re not a fan, and you’re not welcome in my fandom.” People are saying they dislike the show, they are making fun of it and memeing it, they are criticizing the writing choices and the dialogue and the characters, and they are going to great lengths to make their opinions known. Criticism of a property is different than criticism of people.