so I was thinking yesterday about Maedhros and Maglor’s final recorded conversation, in which they debate whether to make a suicidal attack for the Silmarils or turn themselves in.
the striking thing about that conversation is that Maglor has the much stronger argument. “‘If none can release us,then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking.’ Yet he yielded at last to the will of Maedhros,..”
and it’s like: why? if the Everlasting Darkness didn’t move him, if he was resigned to eternal damnation already, if Maedhros’s plan was rather obviously death-by-host-of-Valinor and Maedhros doesn’t even seem to have said anything to justify it, what persuaded Maglor?
but now I think there’s an obvious answer: Maedhros didn’t say this - probably wouldn’t ever have said this - but he was unwilling to be taken prisoner. By anyone, under any circumstances. He’d much rather die than be chained up again, for any reason, and so turning himself in was never ever an option, and as soon as Maglor realized that of course he stopped asking.
I disagree with this reading pretty strongly!
Maglor is in the right, and does have the stronger argument: I’m with you there. But I don’t think giving into Maedhros is about his tender consideration for Maedhros’s feelings. He yields to Maedhros’s will - not to any argument, not to a rational debate: I think we’re meant to understand that he goes along with what Maedhros demands because of the sheer force of his brother’s will. This is not the first time Maedhros has pushed his brothers into something they were not happy with - consider their reaction to his decision to yield up the crown to Fingolfin!
So this choice is not about Maglor’s consideration for Maedhros’s boundaries - if anything, it has more to do with Maedhros’s disregard for Maglor’s. Maglor at this point and indeed probably at least since Sirion would really like to stop. Maedhros doesn’t want to. We’re not told why he doesn’t want to (though I can hazard a guess: if they can stop now, then they could have stopped any time, which means that all the evil things they’ve caused because of the Oath are actually entirely their own fault - a horrifying responsibility.) But the fact that Maglor goes along with what his brother wants, despite knowing that surrender is the better course, says I think more about Maglor’s weakness than it does about his kindness.
In fact you could argue it would genuinely be kinder for Maglor to go and surrender alone, leaving Maedhros without any support for this awful plan and therefore with less chance of succeeding. It was succeeding in getting the Silmarils that finally destroyed them both, after all. Helping someone along the road to damnation - when you know that’s what you’re doing - is not a loving act.
One thing that comes up several times in Tolkien’s work is the hypocrisy of evil - the thinness of Smeagol’s repentance, and of Annatar’s. I think Maglor is the Slinker out of these two. He’d really like to stop, but it’s too hard to do it alone: so despite knowing perfectly well what the better course would be, he yields to the worse one.
It’s one of my favourite character moments for both of them.
So I was going through the replies to this post, and this is damn excellent. I still believe that Maglor went through the Eonwe camp attack FOR Maedhros, and Maedhros only – but I just love how this response articulates the perspective that it’s also really not selfless on Maglor’s side. Clearly Maedhros himself has already made up his mind to pursue the Silmarils, at whatever cost, with or without Maglor. It’s Maglor who’s left with whatever sense of personal guilt and duty and obligation towards Maedhros, and he’s projecting that into his decision to follow Maedhros.
It evokes a very similar feeling whenever I think of Maglor raising the twins. Sure, I believe he honestly cares for Elros and Elrond. But then again, nothing can change the fact the he’s also the one who’s directly responsible for murdering and driving away their entire family in the first place. There’s nothing anyone can say to convince me that somehow things end up okay for Elros and Elrond, just because Maglor did grow to love them and raise them like his own children. It’s not borne out of any kindness or selflessness, but rather as his own means of assuaging his own guilt. As @hweanaro once phrased it, Maglor is trying to build his own (fake) redemption narrative.
#the contrast between the two of them in those final days of the silm is just so terribly fascinating #maedhros as the purest determinator and maglor as the epitome of cognitive dissonance #maglor #maedhros #silmarillion #tolkien commentary #they stood alone against all the world #(on another note i think maedhros made an objectively wise decision in surrendering the kingship though) #(so if an example is to be made about how maedhros has a tendency to force his brothers to yield to his decisions) #(at least this is actually a very rational one) #(in fact for me it’s one of the very few rational decisions made in the entire silm by any character) (maryjabassa)
This is so old, but I wanted to add to it anyway, because to me, this ignores Maedhros’s very clearly stated reason for not surrendering: “ But Maedhros answered that if they returned to Aman but the favour of the Valar were withheld from them, then their oath would still remain, but its fulfilment be beyond all hope; and he said: ‘Who can tell to what dreadful doom we shall come, if we disobey the Powers in their own land, or purpose ever to bring war again into their holy realm?’ “ They CAN’T break their Oath, and therefore even if they tried to surrender, Maedhros believes they would eventually fail. Maglor hopes it will all work out somehow, Maedhros believes that if they surrender and the Valar don’t give up the silmarils, then war in Valinor will be inevitable. The comparison of Maglor to Gollum and describing him as ‘Slinker’ in this thread is interesting though.
The thing about ‘Slinker’ and ‘Stinker’ for Gollum’s two personalities is Sam’s term, not Frodo’s. Sam, when he uses those terms, cannot understand Gollum at all, can see nothing good left in him. He uses insulting names to make it clear how much he dislikes Gollum and how utterly awful he is. How different he is to Frodo and Sam. Frodo doesn’t feel the same. He has hope for Gollum, believes that Gollum might still have light in him somewhere, even while he accepts that Gollum has done terrible things and his chances of doing good are small.
And in fact, Gollum’s decision to go to Shelob for help in killing the hobbits happens directly after Sam insults him. There’s that tantalising moment when you wonder if Gollum might have been able to be redeemed, if Sam had been able to be kinder to him, had spoken to him by name, Smeagol, rather than as Stinker or Slinker… And so here we have fans looking at Maglor, and taking the unkindest view of his actions : he’s trying to ‘create a redemption narrative’ for himself rather than simply helping two kids because they needed help. So this thread has people assuming that a person who has done bad things can never again do a good one, just like Sam, and even using the same words… My reading is admittedly coloured by the fact that I love Elrond, and it wasn’t just that Maglor loved Elrond and Elros, but they loved him too. And so my reading of Maglor and Maedhros is the kinder one, even though I admit that the brief text could support many readings.
@cycas and @lintamande I go back to the original post because I have often thought Maedhros’ decisions were influenced by what had gone before. His captivity in Angband. The years the Oath “slept.” The way it resurfaced. The way everything that can possibly go wrong does. I do think he felt the Oath was unbreakable. I also think the idea of giving up–after all the deaths, kinslayings, tragedies that had gone before–was something he could not face. He couldn’t countenance that all the horrors had essentially been in vain.
I also think the possibility of “captivity” of any sort was unbearable to him. And I do believe Maglor knew that. I think Maedhros’ captivity is a very touchy subject for Maglor. I think he would do anything in his power to avoid putting his brother through that. Anything. Whether it made any sense or not. He wouldn’t need to be told that--he knows it.
And I agree with @cycas and the quote above. I think Maedhros felt that they truly could not break the Oath. He has no guarantee that Manwë or Varda or Eru will consent to release them.
“Who can tell to what dreadful doom we shall come, if we disobey the Powers in their own land, or purpose ever to bring war again into their holy realm?”
He has a very fatalistic view (and at this point who can really blame him?) of this entire situation. He’s been down this road before and each time was worse than the previous. He is likely still under the impression that he is subject to the Doom of the Noldor as well. Even if the Elves are being encouraged to sail West and abandon Middle-earth it is not quite that way for the remaining sons of Fëanor. They are to be judged separately and are not absolved as others may be. The Doom had specific words for the House of Fëanor. He knows very well how that Doom plays out. He’s aware that anything he plans or decides is likely destined to failure. He’s experienced that firsthand. I don’t think the words of Eonwë change that assumption. The words of Mandos likely superseded anything, in his mind.
. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever. …“
Others may have had the Doom dispensed at the end of the War of Wrath but the House of Fëanor is a bit of a different story.
The wrath of the Valar was on them since Alqualondë–with everything they have done since then I’m sure he can’t imagine that wrath has been assuaged at all, even if Eonwë seems somewhat conciliatory or at the least civil in his interactions with them. If anything it’s likely worse. But the line that he knows oh so well to be true is this: ”To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well;“
That may be true of his vain attempt to regain the Silmarils from Eonwë’s camp. But Maedhros likely believes it is also true of any decision they make right now–all plans, courses of action, are to some extent doomed. But if they can lay hands on the Silmarils now they will have fulfilled the intent of the Oath. And maybe they can be done.
But if they surrender now, give up the Silmarils, the consequences may be even grimmer. Maedhros’ words about bringing war to Aman reveals this significant fear of his; that if the Oath is unfulfilled and they are brought across the sea it will continue to torment them. They may very well bring war to Valinor itself to bring an end to their Oath. Because all decisions they make are doomed to end poorly.
And Valinor, even with the murder of Finwë and the Darkening, is still their home. It still has that mystical purity and peace they remember and likely longed for in their years in Exile. The thought that they could bring the kind of devastation to Aman that Melkor did is abhorrent to him.
Even if they brought it to Alqualondë once already. The thought of repeating that, in any scale, back home is unacceptable.
Far better to try one last desperate attempt to fulfil the intent of the Oath and die trying than potentially bring war and destruction to Aman itself.
Sorry to ramble on so. @cycas you said so much about Elrond and Elros that I want to address but this post of mine is already ridiculously long!
