Melrose_Arcade

I Always Come Back Corvid Gaming

[melrose-arcade]

It's so freeing being able to genuinely laugh around my partner

Being used to taking up negative space, and all the fixings of transmisogyny, I was used to just kind of exhaling quietly through my nose

The fact that I can make pig-chortles and not be ridiculed for not being feminine is so fucking great

[penatola]

Do trans men oppress trans women? If yes, how and how can I avoid doing that? Sorry if it's a stupid question

Hi! Very interesting concept you've given me...

I want to start first by saying: if you have privelege in a society and you are an oppressor class, there is no real way to "opt out" of that system - but you CAN do something about thay privelege and unlearn bigotries, like any other group. It should be more them-focused less you-focused ykwim? Better framing for everyone.

And wether or not trans men "opress", is a different story... lemme boot up the ol' nuance machine..

First of all let's define oppressor! Is it someone in a class priveleged above you? Able to enact axes of oppression against you? Or, do we mean someone who has the social capability to oppress? People will disagree on this.

.

If we say "trans men cannot be oppressors since they are transgender, giving them no social power because they are oppressed under the patriarchy" I wanna bring up 2 points.

The first being "what about cis women?" They are oppressed under the patriarhy, misogyny is real, yet they are priveleged and oppressors. Are the complexities here deeper than just "has social power entirely/has none"? And if so, how nuanced is it? Does it change anything?

The second thing I wish to bring up is as a priveleged party you DO have social/political/etc power, maybe not the equivalent to a patriarch, but you DO have power over others.

Mmm... I think that gets into an additional nuance of "systemic, social, political, etc" privelege, and what we define oppressor as there too. Is an oppressor only someone who has political or systemic power over you?

There is a very large discussion here.

....

And as you may notice I have been hinting at the idea trans men have privilege over transfeminized people, (which inherently is a different conversation), because that's truly what this question should be. Now I am unsure if I am the best to explain this because I feel like someone who more muses, asks questions, posits things occasionally, not an authority figure (go see @/the-whipping-girl or like @/transsexual-feminism or something to ask for/read up on what trans-misogyny is better than I can ever explain it.)

But I will try!

So, in a lot of transfeminist theory for decades people have been discussing transfeminization under the patriarchy and how anyone who is not transfeminized has the ability to enact trans-misogynistic violence against us.

What IS trans-misogyny?

Well, Julia Serano once described it as oppositional sexism (as it pertains to us so transphobia) intersected with traditional sexism (femininity is somehow lesser)..

"But don't other trans people face this?" yes, but arguably to a lesser extent and in an entirely different way. The transfeminized/trans-misogynized class in the patriarchy is inherent to someone "transitioning into femininity" so to speak..

Of course, that's the shoddiest explanation ever and I wouldn't take to heart - I'd find someone who knows how the fuck to describe this and the theory around it and take their shit with more grains of sand - but at least you have an idea of where to look discussion-wise..

-==

"But how does any of this make us privileged?" Well, you see, the basic idea is that by not being trans-misogynized you are privileged, and you hold the societal power over trans women to use this bigotry against them. And more than any "trans person is transphobic" situation.

It's been explained to me like this:

Patriarchs (societally-cis men)

->misogyny->

Societally-cis women

->Transphobia->

TME societally-transgender people

-> trans-misogyny->

TMA people

===

Now, to explain this,

a patriarch holds privileges on the axes of misogyny, transphobia, and trans-misogyny.

A societally-cis woman is, of course, oppressed by misogyny. Now, cisfeminism will have you believe these are the only categories - but we know better! We, as transfeminists, know this class is privileged on the basis of trans-misogyny and transphobia! YES, you can be privileged and oppressed by the patriarchy in different ways. [some fake-cis-feminists claim gender-based oppression is all the patriarchy pertains to, and transphobia is its own separate axis that relates none. AKA "trans men oppress cis women cuz men - but they oppress trans men cuz they're cis" - this is just wrong. On the face of it. Not how reality works.]

TME trans people are oppressed by both misogyny and transphobia - now many non-transfeminists stop here. They think "cisfeminism + a class for trans people! This is the patriarchy's set-up" - but for a while transfeminists have been theorizing about it differently. THIS is where trans men are, and, as you can see, it isn't saying "privileged on basis of transphobia/misogyny" BUT it IS saying privileged on basis of trans-misogyny. THAT is what people are discussing - even if they don't use this model.

TMA trans people, oppressed by misogyny, transphobia, and, of course, trans-misogyny.

===

Now, some say that transphobia inherently carries misogyny as an axis of oppression, so they'll describe this more-so as subtypes of misogyny beating down on more marginalized groups under the patriarchy (as best as I explain it). This is why you may see people who discuss things like this say "you don't need an intersection of transphobia and misogyny for people who aren't TMA" - because the misogyny came free with the being abused by the patriarchy.

The key difference is that when people say we need words like isomisogyny or to let trans men into trans-misogyny - there is no analysis. No understanding of theory. Just "they have this and I feel like I should too" <- mainly because people centre their validity in how oppressed they are, causing a bunch of fakewokes who cannot admit privilege at all. Even outside of this context.

So, a transfeminized person talking about theory will be met with ignorance and insecurity. There is a specific reason why trans-misogyny was coined, and the theories built off of it was all with reason. There is no "I feel like I should have this" - there is no coining on twitter for the fun of it - there is just actual active discussion. Transfeminists are not concerned with the tumblr hub-ub of it all.....

Which is all to say: the difference on why we get our own "special" word and other ones seem to always be riddled with flaws is because we don't see it as a special word. We just discuss with each other, and new words come when they are needed. So, unless someone wants to read up on actual theory and then make their own special literature for other groups (which has never happened).

IDK I feel I gotta include that because every time a transfeminist mentions theory there's always complaints "why don't I get my own?" - but the issue is the thought pattern of that in general. It's not that you're not allowed, it's that it's never been about being unique and affirmed in your own oppression! So if someone tries to respond to me explaining this theory on why transfeminists might believe in trans men's privilege with "what about me?" - what ABOUT you? WHY do you need your own term? What's your analysis? How does it fit in with the current analyses being discussed? <- Think that to yourself.

^ SORRY FOR TANGENT. I JUST KNOW HOW IT SOUNDS TO MENTIION TRANS-MISOGYNY THEN MENTION HOW A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE YOU NEED A WORD FOR THE MISOGYNY/TRANSPHOBIA INTERSECTION... BUT TRUTHFULLY, IT'S IN THE THEORY, YKWIM? OPPOSITIONAL SEXISM X TRAD SEXISM AS IT AFFECTED PEOPLE WHO ARE SOCIETALLY-TRANSFEM IS SOMETHING, YOU GOTTA START WITH SOMETHING. that's why these beliefs form, i think.

==========

I really disassociated and forgot a lot of what was supposed to go here I'm sorry. I had more to say on the model and different modes of thought..

....

NOW, it's important to reexplain nobodies arguing against the oppression of trans men, and if you have a societal force that needs a name that isn't better described as misogyny or transphobia - let us know! Do that work! Make that theory! But until then, this is what we got lol.

Now, "trans men are privileged", how is this different than cisfeminism or general fake-feminism?

The difference is, we are acknowledging that societally-cis and societally-trans people have different placements under the patriarchy. The patriarchy doesn't care for gender labels; the fact the enforced classes are man and woman are because they want you to conform to that. They want you to be born M or F and conform to the role it enforces. A gender-identity-based patriarchy does not exist.

[this is also why transfeminists say "you are oppressed for being trans not being a man" - because it's true - your gender labels have nothing to do with it. it's oppositional sexism. Transphobia. Your patriarchal class is because you are trans solely.]

In the transfeminist mindset, though, you are not privileged for your labels, but your societal standing as a non-transfeminzied person. Because you don't experience transmisogyny and benefit from that, you have privilege.

This is also different from the TERF idea of "transitioning into privilege" - being trans inherently makes you not privileged! Nobody is saying you become a patriarch. I know it may feel that way if someone says "male privilege" for trans men - which yea, I think the term will always cause confusion, but people who say that mean this as well.

Any transfeminist view about trans-misogyny and TME privilege will be based on this idea that you are privileged for not being trans-misogynized. No, not that you have "female-privilege" or are the equivalent of a patriarch.

===

Okay, now I have deliriously explained the concept of WHY people may say trans men have privilege, let's talk about what we are really here for: not understanding what it means to be an oppressor, or discussing theories that pertain to TME privilege while I stumble through trying to explain the thought processes behind them, we are here cuz you asked a probably bad faithed question that if answered in earnest would always lead here:

Unearning trans-misogyny.

And to unlearn trans-misogyny, we need to first understand what it is. How it functions.

Trans-misogyny comes with a lot of things,

We are hypersexualized and fetishized, we are seen as sex dolls, we are seen as less-than for our femininity, we are forced to strive to perform womanhood as best as we can even if we are GNC or have a complex experience due to being seen a pervs and invasive cis men if we don't (even allies uphold this) - we are held to an impossible standard, people literally wait for us to fuck up to go "see ? I was affirmed in my inherent distrust!",

i am literally too sick to continue this post which sucks cuz this is what the post was always going to be and it'd ve a really cool and loong explaination and sruff but im so sick

go read up on transfeminist lit and lurk in our discussions . be educated.

[melrose-arcade]

The part that makes me angriest about the abuse I faced

Is that I have wasted so much of my life simply trying to be someone worth loving

Trying to prove that I can be useful, that I can matter if I just provide enough, if I'm able to love hard enough, or have enough sex with them, or provide some material good

The hardest part, the worst part, is believing that if you give up enough of yourself, throw away enough pieces of who you are, that maybe you can earn just a crum of love

Parents who choose the bottle instead of me, friends who would rather lose me than bother trying

I've spent so many hours trying to give enough of myself, to be worth just a minute of someone's time

[autogynophelia]

A frustrating thing about being aware of transmisogyny is how hard it is to convince other transfems (particularly those who are newly out) of its existence as a real form of oppression.

You'll meet a girl who got kicked out of a queer group because of a sex joke she made that landed badly, and she'll just be taking 100% of the blame and saying she deserved it, saying that she should have known her place and been meek and sexless to prove that she's not a predator.

You'll meet a girl who's afraid to go to the laser clinic, because the one time she went she overheard the laser techs arguing about who would be "burdened" with her, and from that she internalised that she *is* a burden that no one should have to deal with.

You'll meet a girl who's gone to the theoretically-inclusive sapphic meetup like ten times, even though no-one ever talks to her, and when she tries to talk to them they give a one-word response and turn away. And she just keeps going back because she thinks the problem is that she's the "new girl". Even though there have been three newer girls than her who are already in the in-group.

Some of these women are so used to marginalisation and mistreatment, that when it happens again and again they consider it the natural course of events. It's their own fault, some unique character flaw that they alone have. And they're so isolated and desperate for community that they will put up with any amount of abuse from other queers.

Sometimes it's only after seeing it happen several times to *other* transfems, and never any other kind of queer person even if they do exactly the same things, that they realise that a pattern exists, and there is a name for that pattern, and all there's a whole world of transfeminist writing for them to dive into with newly-opened eyes.

[melrose-arcade]

Before I discovered transfeminism, I fully thought I was broken. I thought I alone was uniquely evil, and people hated me specifically. I would literally beg people to just tell me what I did wrong, but it was always that I "was just too loud" (about being called the t-slur), or that I "wasn't uncivil, just not civil" (about saying someone's "joke" that "I would kill you if God told me to" made me uncomfortable).

I was pushed to believe I alone kept fucking every encounter up, that I just couldn't talk to people, that I was unique in my inability to find friends in the greater trans community, so I pulled away. I stopped going to pride events, I left every trans server, I stopped trying to make myself a presence, because I was punished for doing so.

It's scary how people will hate you for daring to exist while transfem, but try to make it "progressive" with their AMAB bullshit and "Male Socialization" lies.

If you happen to read this, know that you're beautiful, and you matter. You aren't uniquely evil, they're just jealous of your femininity.

[badgersandbees]

Protip from one TME to the rest: stop taking it so goddamn personally.

Accept that transmisogynised people are hurt daily by those who are not transmisogynised. Period. The girls are allowed to be fucking exhausted by it and if you can't see WHY, if you must argue "but what about these marginalized people in this identity??", then you've already lost the plot.

What about the people they (TME people) are HURTING? Why are TMA people not allowed to express their frustration and pain? Why do the feelings of trans and nb people who stand to gain socially from hurting trans women matter more than the feelings of trans women? Why do they constantly become the priority?

You're failing feminism 101 and it's embarrassing.

[melrose-arcade]

This is genuinely it though

Even if we're in a world where transmisogyny isn't as serious, or whatever argument people are making

Why is it so hard to just listen to hurt people? Why does it make you angry to hear that you hurt someone? Good people hear that they have hurt someone and go "How do I right this?

[melrose-arcade]

This year, for Pride (something carved out and fought for by trans women of colour), every trans woman is allowed to kill one (1) person of their choice.

You will never know if they've used their one (1), so you better watch the fuck out.

[melrose-arcade]

Actually, I'm going to just start hitting people with my car.

Disagree with me once? Hit with my car

Had a different opinion? Hit with my car

Are TME? Hit with my car

We'll see who's still talking after they're hit by my fucking vehicle

[melrose-arcade]

The worst part of the transfem experience for me, more so than the news and the TERFs and the murder, is that while I experience this and constantly check my back, I just know there's some asshole seething right now that they're *not* experiencing this too.

[caninecollectivesystem]

For this Pride Month, I think we should start letting trans women bite people

[caninecollectivesystem]

Unforeseeable consequence: Wife bit me

[melrose-arcade]

False news

[melrose-arcade]

This year, for Pride (something carved out and fought for by trans women of colour), every trans woman is allowed to kill one (1) person of their choice.

You will never know if they've used their one (1), so you better watch the fuck out.

[melrose-arcade]

You HAVE to be supportive of the creative ideas of trans women.

We are constantly told that we should shut up, that our ideas aren't worth having, that we don't matter, all while our ideas and creations are taken by other people.

You have to support us because no one else is.

[libraford]

The B in LGBTQ stands for 'biting you.'

[melrose-arcade]

The T in LGBTQ stands for 'teeths' which I use to bite you.

[agoraphobe]

[caninecollectivesystem]

The kind of tragic part about being a system is that i can tell you with absolute certainty that that kind of trauma sticks with you, but I can also tell you that she can learn that some people do want her around and want to be friends with her and love her so much

[melrose-arcade]

I love you, and I love Carmen, and I love Lila, and I love Gina

And every day I get to wake up and show you that you're loved is a day worth waking up for

[trying-trying2lyk]

i love writing out numbers and then putting them in parentheses like "one (1)" even when i dont need to i think its funny

[justatiredlittlesnail]

[melrose-arcade]

You **have** to clicker train him.

He's scared to take up space or want anything, you have to teach him to ask for things.

He's scared of being perceived, you have to teach him to love his tummy.

This is a job only for you

[melrose-arcade]

A very happy pride to all of the trans women out there

[melrose-arcade]

What the meow meow

[melrose-arcade]

Yeah man, idk

*partner jumping up and down like an excitable dog*

I've just been trying to get more comfortable about the idea of nudity

*partner with comically bulging eyes and fog horn noises*

Still trying to get past the fucked up ideas of the 'rape organ' and the evilness of a penis

*partner scratching at the walls like a cat*

No there's no other reason, why do you ask?