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Vader’s relationship with other characters

As much as Vader can be ruthless, many stories presented him more as a pragmatic person than cruel just for fun. What, in my opinion, is one of the most important difference between Vader and his master, Darth Sidious (especially during time when Palpatine’s power as Emperor was well secured). As a Lords of the Sith, both men done a lot of awful things, there is no deny of that. Yet Palpatine didn’t use people in his schemes just because it was necessery; he often did that for his own amusment. He deliberaly destroyed his subordinates, because he could. It didn’t matter if said people were fanatic loyal to him or Empire. He played on their loyalty, ambitions, fears and so on. It amused him. Palpatine liked torture people (like with Luke Skywalker; instead of killing him on spot, Palpatine tortured him with Force Lightning).

And Darth Sidious could do that - he could destroy how many people he wanted, because there was always someone new to replace the useless “cogs” in his big schemes. Vader on other hand didn’t have that luxury. His “human resources” were limited and people loyal only to him were few and between. Still, Vader looked not only for his own allies & servants but also took interest in talented people who could benefit Empire as a whole.

Because of that, I always thought Vader has the most interesting relationships / dynamic with other characters. Palpatine is a manipulative and cruel person; he uses people until they were destroyed entirely and then throw them away like trash. The Rebellion Leia and Luke on other hand are the heroes of story; the good guys. Sure, both of them took part in war against Empire, yet their characters are under hero code of honor, or whatever you want call it. But Vader? He can be ruthless and manipulative - he kills people right and left, imperials, rebels, smugglers, innocents or criminals, he doesn’t care as long as it serves his purpose. Because of that Vader is seen as a monster - people expect him to be such merciless killer, to be “more machine than human”. That’s why so many people were suprised by his unexpected military & political decisions or gestures of (pragmatic) kindness like the few times when he surprised his prisoners by giving (returning to) them their droids or caring for his injured/dying soldiers or sparing someone’s life / promoting someone when everyone were sure said person will die at Vader’s hand.

I guess, lieutenant Gregg was right in “Dark Times” comics series when he said “Show him [Vader] what you’re capable of. Impress him. You might be surprised at his reaction”.

cptsd-skywalker

"...possibly sexual abuse given his relationship to Palpatine included going to bars and sharing the same sleeping quarters during that time. He also touches Anakin in super creepy ways in ROTS novelization that recalled me to my own abuse..."

You don't want to know how long my internal screaming and sick feeling over seeing Palpatine touch Anakin (who did NOT want to be touched) on screen took to click. Because I honestly confused being molested with being physically abused as a child. But once I realized...I.

And Palpatine KEPT putting himself alone with children too. No one saw. And for Anakin coming from Tatooine? It could have been worse he thinks. It's just the cost of social climbing. It's what HAPPENS to people like. He would have normalized it because of his history of trauma. And no one thought to check.

As a trauma survivor, watching anytime Palpatine touches Anakin in a frankly sensual way on the shoulder or arms in TCW or the Prequals always makes my stomach churn. It’s very predatory. It always reminds me of my own abuser. It’s part of the reason I headcannon him as explicitly sexually abusing him, though in cannon the covert sexual abuse is bad enough.

This is the definition of child grooming.

Palpatine purposefully exposes Anakin to sexually explicit and inappropriate situations to destroy his boundaries little by little, while also cultivating a relationship of closet close secrecy. He makes Anakin feel safe with him while slowly turning up the temperature in Anakin’s pot until he is boiling and none the wiser. As a child, he knows Anakin is desperate for a real connection to family after being separated from his mother. He knows that Anakin is vulnerable and that he has the Jedi at his mercy, so he uses that power to get Anakin alone to have private talks with the child in his private rooms. Deeply inappropriate at best and blatant CSA coding at worst.

You are not the only one to notice inappropriately sexual undertones in thier relationship. Just look at their exchange whenever Anakin is turned to the darkside. Anakins boundaries have been so thoroughly destroyed that he feels totally culpable with Palpatine even though at this point he has only actually attacked 1 Jedi. He technically speaking could turn back, but because of the grooming and secrecy and the isolation that Palpatine has inflicted on Anakin; Anakin feels as though he is just as guilty when in reality he is a victim. That is exactly how child predators keep their victims from telling. They tell their victims that they wanted the abuse and that they are just as guilty as the abuser, that they won’t be believed or will even be punished, that they will loose everything they love. In this case for Anakin it means loosing his place in the Jedi Order, loosing Obi Wan as a friend, and loosing Padme his only love. For Anakin, he is choosing the option where at least he can save one of those options, while the other two are a foregone conclusion. He believes because of the conditioning he’s been under since he was 9 by both the Jedi and Palpatine that he is a lost cause the moment he so much as toes the line of the darkside, which is of course a sunken cost fallacy that he has already sold his soul to the devil.

The sexual imagery in the scene wherein Anakin is on his knees and in total submission to Palpatines whims is not lost on me @komikbookgeek. It smacks of the power dynamic of an abuser who has completely subdued their victim into emotional slavery, and it is not a coincidence that many 18+ fics have interpreted the scene after as a sexual one. It’s a clear coding of their power dynamic reading to me the same as when my father sexually abused me. He told me that I had “done it once and liked it” so the other times made no difference. He had already sullied me, so me telling him no was a mute point and entirely unreasonable. I believed him much like Anakin believes Palpatine. You are already worthless to them. But you have great use for me. It is so heartbreaking to me that Anakin remains trapped in that horrific cycle for the next 20 years.

This scene was no accident in my opinion:

https://cptsd-skywalker.tumblr.com/post/688946571446026240/anakincito-this-scene-is-insane-bc-the

this scene is insane bc the directing choices are so????? like what the hell did they even tell hayden to do?? “look submissive and breedab

@merrysithmas

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@rogue205

@gch1995

@komikbookgeek

@tragicfantasy-girl

@fanfic-lover-girl

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@mynameisanakin

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komikbookgeek

While I am firmly in team "Sheev Palpatine is a predator" and I want to blame him for Anakin's grooming, there's EVERYTHING on Tatooine that helped him.

You've mentioned Gardulla and Anakin's insecurity there (and I think there's a lot that gets overlooked there in how it shows up in RotS) but people tend to forget: Anakin arrived on Coruscant already having undergone grooming for sexual abuse.

Enslaved people have very limited options for improving their lives, and slavery in the Star Wars universe reads much more like slavery in the Roman Era than African Chattel Slavery. It wasn't a crime nor looked down upon for Roman slaves to be whatever their 'job' was while also being used to sex. It was seen as why would you have a beautiful horse and not ride it? Anakin was, without question, a beautiful child. And he is often shown to be hiding it which is most likely 100% Shmi's doing as Tatooine Ghost heavily implies she was a child sex slave. Anakin's hair is cut in a scraggly nonappealing manner that is going to do a LOT in trapping sweat and dirt on his face and neck. He is grease-stained and gritty. His hair shadows his eyes, which are lovely and expressive. His clothing is ill-fitted and baggy. Given both he and Shmi wear homemade jewelry and they would have had to make clothing LAST, given Shmi was later trained as a housekeeper, it's impossible to think she doesn't know how to smock and hem clothing to save fabric to let down and let out seam for growth while keeping Anakin, who works with equipment daily, free of loose clothing. It's basic poverty survival. Anakin probably should be wearing an apron and a kerchief as well to protect his clothing and to wipe his face and he doesn't. Shmi's clothing is dyed, Anakin's is faded, unbleached, and raw - showing every dirt, grease, and sweat stain (and likely blood as well). He doesn't LOOK appealing, looks like he would smell, like he may have vermin or carry germs, etc. His hygiene looks poor and there are better, prettier options for people who would abuse a child to find on Tatooine.

That, I do believe, is WHY he looks like that. His mother is protecting him by making him look like something no one would want to buy for sexual purposes.

And later in RotS when Anakin is being pressured and not sleeping, not eating, when he's feeling stressed, what happens? His clothing is messy, not as well fitted/well worn. His hair is a sweaty, oily MESS. Without realizing it, he's falling into the same camouflage that protected him (somewhat) as a child.

I say somewhat because there's no way Anakin didn't have friends who lived that nightmare. We know George's daughter played a friend of his but she's still on screen in braces. What person is going to spend that kind of money on a slave if looks aren't important? If they don't increase her value beyond the cost? He mentions to Ahsoka he and his mother were sold in an auction 'like this one' while Ahsoka is dressed to be trafficked sexually. Anakin saw shit, heard shit, his friends would have talked and shared their lives the same as Anakin did with him.

And Anakin, fresh from that kind of hell, is faced with this:

Obi-Wan isn't happy about this - most people see what. But what gets overlooked is that ANAKIN isn't pleased with this. Anakin, straight from slavery who understands his safety demands he be valued and useful is being given attention by a very important (wealthy) man. He should WANT that - and yet he clearly doesn't and even moves away from the touch as much as he politely can. He knows damn well what being looked at like that means and what's likely to happen to him.

He didn't say anything, why would he? He doesn't want to be a PROBLEM. He knows the Jedi don't want him and it's likely they could easily give him over to Palpatine. Why not? The man is the last surviving member of his Clan, he's wealthy, powerful, connected, he's from the planet young Anakin is a hero on - if they don't want to train him, giving him over to a man who shows interest, has resources and political reasons to take Anakin in, and APPEARS friendly makes sense. And Anakin? Doesn't want to plant this idea. He doesn't want Palpatine's attention.

There's a price to social climbing. It would also HEAVILY tie into Anakin's dislike of politicians.

I mean. Even when I was a teenager I really disliked and distrusted cops. And from the neighborhood I grew up in? That on the surface made no sense. The local cops had to live in the village. I spent a good deal of my life from 4 to 10 with the local chief living behind my house and two up. I played with and babysat his son. I played in the garden of another and got to pick flowers and feel his koi nibble at my fingers (he was the canine officer). I knew them all and they were Officer First Name, not Officer Last Name. But when I was 11/12 we had an all new crew. And by the time I was 13/14 (the age Anakin was when Palpatine muscled into his life, which isn't lost on me) out local chief was well known with the preteen and 'late blooming' teens. See, he like really young girls. To the point the 12 year old down the street bore his child and he paid the family to not tell. You got in trouble? If you got alone with him - which wasn't difficult - for a blow job he'd treat it as a warning if it was just a status violation. We all knew this. I don't remember if he SAID our folks all knew but it was understood not to talk about it anyway. And I know I thought mine knew, because I was shocked when he was finally caught and my mom was blindsided. I knew. Why didn't she? We all knew. He was a local chief of police. Authority. When 80% of those under 18 live below the poverty line, guess what? We don't want to be trouble for our parents. We don't want to cost them money. That distrust and anger? Oh it stayed. I didn't care that the other cops spoke of him after his trial with divisiveness - how did they NOT KNOW? Who else was in on it? Weren't there cameras in the cells? (yes that's how he was caught.)

Social climbing costs something.

Anakin knew and understood this. Even with whatever Palpatine was doing, Anakin understood he was paying for it. There are many times we see in AotC and RotS that Palpatine touches Anakin. They are friends, right? Anakin is close to the Chancellor too close, right? Palpatine loves him like a son, right? So why are these touches, always from Palpatine toward Anakin never met with posture from Anakin that's welcoming, warm, relaxed? Why doesn't Anakin, who is a very tactile person, ever touch back? A lean or a side hug or a pat on the arm? Never, ever does he. He doesn't want Palpatine to touch him.

Because he knows. He understands. If he does, that's a promise of something. He owes something.

Palpatine him I almost always call a sadist and I mean it in the strictest terms - I firmly believe Palpatine gets sexual enjoyment off inflicting suffering on others. Physical is good, emotional is great, the combination is even better.

Now - I know some people know this BUT not everyone does. Fuck, not everyone does. But it's entirely possible that sexual molestation and assault can cause the victim to feel pleasure. You don't want it. You hate yourself for it. But it's a reaction. Like being tickled - you might hate it, but you'll still laugh, even if you are crying and begging people to stop.

But even with survivors of abuse, it's not something often talked about openly. Not between ourselves. Not with our therapists. It's confusing and humiliating.

Let's not focus on Palpatine being the senator Padmé worked under as a child. Working long hours and would have been alone with Palpatine often. Let's not focus on it but let's not forget it. Padmé wasn't the first either. Maul was. He had him all alone to himself starting when Maul was five. Because Anakin wasn't the first child Palpatine manipulated to get into his life. And he wasn't the last either, especially in Legends. Palpatine only becomes a mentor to people if he can start before they hit puberty.

But that humiliation? Man does it CARRY. It fucks you UP. Because people will say you wanted it. Your abuser sure. It wasn't that bad, you enjoyed it right? Seemed like you did. Other people will use that against you too. And if you are desperate for physical affection? You might "decide" that putting up with discomfort and pain is worth it. If it's the only openly warm and affectionate relationship you have? You really might.

And I don't doubt Obi-Wan loved Anakin. But Anakin needed it shown in a way that Obi-Wan was expressed trained out of showing. It's why Anakin believed Obi-Wan didn't want him for so long.

Going back to the ask I sent in -

I have told a friend that Palpatine always makes me feel like screaming 'Stranger Danger!'. He does. He always did and I don't think people are writing him probably if he doesn't come off like that. But it really wasn't until I fully realized the abuse I suffered at the hands of an uncle-in-law wasn't JUST physical that I understood why. Because I was a very disabled child, recovering from surgery, and I was just shy. Affectionate but shy. And this man? Was a decades-long predator with at least a dozen previous victims before he got to my family. His youngest? A six-month-old. I was four and five of his typical victim age. The oldest was seven or eight. Again that I know of. I wasn't questioned by a social worker who would have known HOW to ask me questions. I was questioned by a family member (my mom) who didn't. Who still doesn't really know how to ask a question without it being an accusation. Punishment in my house was physical. Once, it was several wooden slats from a bifolding closet door duct-taped together. Most often it was hands.

Hands hitting me on the buttocks and thighs. His hands hurting me in the same area. I didn't know there was a difference.

And I didn't want to get into trouble. So I lied. I said nothing happened. Because I believed I would be in trouble. For not telling sooner, because I was SUPPOSED to. I was more afraid, truly afraid, of breaking the rules and the punishments for that than I was of a man who set fire to a building as revenge for being fired. Who was the reason I was scared to go pee at that house. Was the reason my cousin and I played together in a locked closet, with the lights out, in a locked bedroom, with the lights out, so we couldn't be found. Who was the reason we talked about killing and how we could do it.

I was five years old. And talking seriously with another five-year-old about how to kill someone.

And I was more afraid of breaking the rules than of what he'd do to me.

Anakin? Would have been too. He had nothing but the Jedi and Obi-Wan. If he was cast aside, thrown out, what would happen to him? Of course, he'd never tell anyone about the abuse - and like you, I firmly believe it wasn't just covert sexual abuse. The ballet we see that Palpatine took Anakin to? Was Squid Lake - an in-universe tale of Swan Lake. It's a classic but it's also a romantic thing. Something you'd take a date to (Palpatine HAS a lover, she's seen in RotS and he had others in Legends) not really something you'd take someone you're mentoring. Anakin was already in a state - rushing, no sleep, not eating, and then alone, with Palpatine, in a dark private place. If the talk about the Force hadn't happened, I don't doubt something else quite terrible would have. After all, Anakin fidgets and shifts and moves. He's just trying to get Anakin to settle down, it's hardly his fault if Anakin sees it as being something else.

Which would have worked in Palpatine's favor. Anakin is constantly made to doubt his judgment, his instincts, his read on things, his experiences. It's a time and place to coerce him into something and then gaslight him about it. Anakin likely doesn't trust his own memory because he has a great memory! He just isn't able to remember things that happen with Palpatine right, isn't able to recall them properly. It's the Jedi and his past making him believe something predatory happened, that's all.

I know now WHY Palpatine always made me want to run away screaming.

I ask the same thing to those in-universe, that I do of my local hometown. How did no one else SEE?

cptsd-skywalker

These are some amazing points you’ve made @komikbookgeek. I also appreciate all those who have been contributing, @gch1995, @fanfic-lover-girl , @fanfictasia ,@synapticjive, @tragicfantasy-girl, @dberl,

It’s been wonderful reading all of your comments and thoughts.

First of all

I want to say that the point of my original post was never to unequivocally prove that Anakin was sexually abused by Palpatine as a child. That is simply my personal headcannon based on personal experience of that kind of abuse and what I see happening between them. It is pure conjecture and a little projection. You are right to point out @gch1995 and @fanfictasia that there is no explicit evidence of this. However, the point I was trying to make was that Palpatines attitudes toward Anakin and the tactics he uses in grooming Anakin for the darkside are the same kinds of tactics that child predators use to groom children for sex abuse. Their dynamic of abuse and the way Palpatine goes about it give me the creeps precisely because of the sensual way he sort of describes the darkside as a kind of seduction, his voice silky and caressing. Like a snake hissing. You are right to point out that you can be groomed for anything , not just sexual abuse. My arguement is that it seems to be heavily coded that way even if it never explicitly happened or even was intended to be seen that way. Anakins trauma responses of fawning and fighting are common to those kinds of abuses as well, though again that doesn’t denote explicitly sexual abuse from Palpatine. However, the likely hood that Anakin was sexually abused in his childhood his very high. Given his background of enslavement, what we know of slave culture on Tatooine, his trauma responses as an adult including touch aversion (except with those he’s very close to) are all hallmarks of possible sexual abuse. Add to this the fact that Anakin’s first response to the situation on Zygeria is to use his “charm” (he’s aware that he’s sexually appealing to others) to win over the queen, coupled with his fawning trauma response of flirting and submitting himself to her when his friends lives are in danger, suggest to me that this is not the first time he has been put in this situation.

Let’s examine this further:

Anakin being raised as a child enslaved meant that he could be abused in any way his owners saw fit and he would have had no legal recourse to save himself or seek justice. His only recourse was to follow along and fawn before his abusers and hope for mercy that he may never be shown. He could be abused physically, sexually, emotionally and neither he nor his mother could do anything about it. Knowing this fact alone would have been traumatizing to a child. But then we have this: Anakin wasn’t just enslaved to any slaver or even just to Watto(who was bad enough) but was enslaved to possibly the cruelest band of slavers in the galaxy during his toddlerhood: The Hutts

From Ages 1-4 Anakin and Shmi were owned by Gardulla the Hutt. Anakin speaks of watching her eat a child slave who just happened to displease her. Who knows what kind of abuse he would have faced with her. The possibilities are endless. The Hutts were known to keep sex slaves. Were children off limits for this? Even if he wasn’t sexually abused himself he would have witnessed it happening to others and knew at some point it could happen to him. @komikbookgeek your observation that Shmi tried to make Anakin look as inconspicuous as possible hits home to me here. She would have been a target for this kind of abuse even if Anakin was spared from it himself. Did he witness any of this happen to his mother?That would have been intensely traumatizing in and of itself. This is the reality that Anakin faced every day until he and his mother are lost in a bet to Watto at age 4-5, and even then Watto beats and emotionally abused him. He has no say about his future and he lives with the threat of being stolen from his mother on a whim. The message is clear: you don’t speak up. You don’t complain. You don’t cry. Becuase it can always get worse and will if you don’t properly toe the line. This is a facet of Anakin’s trauma that both Palpatine and The Zygerian Queen take advantage of when it comes to Anakin. “Follow me and do what I say or everyone you love dies” and Anakin’s response is the same in both cases. He submits and sacrifices himself immediately no matter the cost in order to spare those he loves.

Think of the implications of Anakin waking up on The Queen’s bed and how much it alarms him. That kind of alarm comes from a place of knowing that kind of abuse on some level. Then he seems to know she has sexually predatory interest in him, becuase he he fawns before her (people who interpret this as flirting sicken me, becuase Anakin is just doing what he needs to keep his friends and himself alive. He cannot consent in this situation to her. She has temporarily enslaved him). He submits to her in the hope that she won’t kill his friends if he does. If anything sexual occurred between them in her chambers it would have been rape/sexual assault. She outright states that she wants him as her “personal slave” and touches him in suggestive ways all throughout the episode. She strokes his face and shoulder in an intimate way that freaks me out even if there is no explicit sexual molestation.

Now Let’s Look at the way Palpatine Touches Anakin:

Again not explicit sexual abuse, but the way he strokes his face and strokes his shoulder just creeps the hell out of me. It reminds me of how my own abuser used to touch me when he didn’t want to be caught in public but still wanted to make me feel owned by him. Anakin just takes it here the same way he takes it from the Queen, but since we know that Anakin’s trauma response is typically to fawn if he’s in a position of powerlessness, we can see similarities in both of his responses to the touch. He just stands there, doesn’t respond in kind with a similar touch back to indicate intimacy. He just looks helpless or shocked. Also the “Anakin I’ve known you since you were a boy” when he does it is just creepy. Here again, not explicitly sexual abuse but it just reminds me of that. He is fostering a relationship of false intimacy to groom Anakin for the darkside the same way a sexual predator would groom a child for sex abuse. It doesn’t mean he took it as far as that, but the coding for me at least is there.

Now there is the look Anakin gives Palpatine when he has finally succumb to the grooming, and believes as Palpatine wants him to that the only way out is to submit to him and join the Darkside:

If the context was not already known to me, I might have thought something sexual had just taken place. The look of total submission and heady darkness in Anakin’s eyes when he finally feels he has to give in are startling to me. Many people find this look Anakin gives to be sexually attractive (I have many posts on my blog with people talking about it at length, describing the look as “submissive and breedable”), and to me this is again just Anakin’s fawning response. He only knows how to survive through submitting and hoping for the best. In this scenario his coping mechanism fails him miserably as it only leads to more suffering, but I can imagine it served him well as a child with Gardulla The Hutt and Watto whenever he feared punishment.

TLDR; Anakin’s coping mechanisms of fawning and submitting probably worked very well for him in the environment of slavery and abuse he experienced as a child. However these coping mechanisms backfire massively when they are taken advantage of by The Zygerian Queen (who either attempts or succeeds in sexually abusing him) and Palpatine (who grooms him for abuse and the darkside since age 9) in order to force Anakin to submit to their will, to whatever end you believe that will to lead him to.

ohgodmyeyes

Such a neat post (although I doubt my input will be very useful/interesting)!

Anyway... I have no arguments to offer against the notion that Anakin might have been sexually abused— there's more evidence to support it than contradict it, regardless of whether or not it ever gets explicitly stated. It's always been my impression too, and sadly I also don't think it started with Palpatine.

The way Ani displays his own lack of respect for boundaries early in his relationship with Padmé is something I tend to connect with his possibly having been abused — he leans in too closely, he touches her (repeatedly!) without asking, he's overbearingly affectionate, and (most significantly imo) he feels personally slighted when she reacts badly to his objectively strange advances.

That kind of behaviour just doesn't line up with Anakin's values, and we're jarred when he acts that way because it seems to contradict what we know about him & his intent. What I think he's actually doing in those moments is emulating what he's been subjected to by his own abusers.

If the only sexual contact he's ever experienced up to that point has been predatory, and he's never had cause to learn any different (being a member of a celibate religious order and all that), then it certainly makes sense to me that he'd react to his feelings for Padmé based on what he knows.

And if all he knows is abuse, then yes, he's going to turn the creep up to 11, and not because he himself is inherently creepy.

The idea of Anakin's past sexual abuse as a shadow lurking in the background of his marriage puts it into context for me in a way little else does. His aforementioned early behaviour; the strength of his subsequent fear of losing Padmé to Clovis; the GUILT he must feel following his encounter with the Zygerian Queen; the fact that losing her in childbirth essentially means (to him) that he killed her by having sex with her… oh man, there's so much to unpack there.

Is it possible that her tolerance for his behaviour could have been inspired by her own private knowledge of his abuse? Maybe — because if he'd trust/value anyone enough to tell them about it, I think it would be her.

The challenges they face in relating to one another and building a healthy bond are definitely connected to the long-distance nature of their relationship + their extremely different upbringings + a few problems I believe Anakin was born with a predisposition toward developing; however, I personally don't think those things can fully account for it.

It really does feel like there's a 'piece' missing from the larger picture of how Anakin views relationships and intimacy by the time he's a grown man: Everything from his fawning to his fear/reactive violence to his eagerness to please others seem to indicate that something happened to badly corrupt his perception of that stuff.

Given his history (thank you for so plainly illustrating so much of it for us, @cptsd-skywalker, especially re: Palpatine), I reeeeally don't think it's unreasonable to extrapolate that he was sexually abused as a child— probably by at least a few different people, and likely for several years.

It's not exactly the most comfortable headcanon, but Anakin unfortunately isn't a very comfortable person. (Ironically, that's probably what makes him so comforting, isn't it…?)

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