Chronicling Days Long Since Past

Aspiring Historian • likes to talk about mythology • Hopes to mostly talk about myths that don’t get much attention

[harpertheidiot]

I saw a post like this recently so I'm making a classics version

Spin the wheel. This Greek mythological figure is trying to kill you

Spin the wheel again. This Greek mythological figure is trying to protect you

Are you surviving?

100% no, my corpse is desecrated

100% no, but I am given a proper burial

Yes, but with major injuries

Yes, but with minor injuries

100% yes, not a scratch on me

Other (explain in tags)

Remaining time: 21 hours 22 minutes

(I know Homer and Sappho aren't mythological, I just threw them in there for fun)

[mostcuriousmythicist]

Not even gonna bother finding a protector 😔

[greater-than-the-sword]

It's a good thing the Brits didn't win the revolutionary war or we'd all be speaking English right now

[soundbuster]

Dear Greek Mythology Fandom,

I have an inquiry.

As a community, do we... shit on Theseus more than we should?

Don't get me wrong. He's still the guy who got his son Hippolytus killed, abducted Helen who was a minor at the time, tried doing the same to Persephone, and of course there's him abandoning Ariadne.

That's not—nor should—disappear, but it feels like we've ignored everything else about him, such as:

his Six Labours, including defeating bandits like Periphetes the Club-Bearer and Sinis the Pine-Bender, who preyed on travelers.

killing the Minotaur and ending the tribute of Athenian youths to Minos.

unifying Attica into a single, centralized city-state under Athenian rule.

willingly giving up absolute power and transferring much of the governance to the people, planting the early seeds of democracy.

While it's not wrong to criticize Theseus, or see this list as Athenian propaganda, it has become a bit redundant to have his worse moments be his whole identity.

We can acknowledge Odysseus as both brilliant and deceitful, Achilles as magnificent and terrifying, yet with Theseus, we almost always circle back to his failures.

Like come on, those two don't have clean hands either.

Greek heroes have always been complex beings; extraordinary people capable of tremendous good and bad.

Theseus can be a founder, monster-slayer, and celebrated hero king while also being a man whose catastrophic personal decisions ultimately cost him nearly everything.

Those two facts can still coexist.

Comments and ask is open for thoughts.

[I don't want to get into the sources of if Theseus willingly abandoned Ariadne or a god forced him or Dionysus had Artemis kill her (that's a can of worms for later), but this fandom really likes having Theseus be a monster for the sole purpose of Dionysus x Ariadne. It feels like that sometimes. No shade ofc, as it would be hypocritical to do so when I am a Dionysus x Ariadne fan myself.]

[mostcuriousmythicist]

Well it could of course come down to media appeal since Theseus doesn’t have very many good portrayals on screen compared to Odysseus, Herakles, and Achilles.

But as for why people focus a lot on the version where Theseus abandons Ariadne on his own accord. Well that’s because it’s kind of needed…

To explain, in the other versions of the story, instead of Theseus selfishly abandoning Ariadne only to be rescued by Dionysus, you have Dionysus either killing Ariadne, threatening Theseus in a dream to leave her, or just straight up kidnapping Ariadne. In these versions Dionysus doesn’t come off as good, just as how Theseus doesn’t look very good in the versions more favorable to Dionysus.

So the way I see it, if you reinterpret the story to be more sympathetic to Theseus and show him actually caring for Ariadne, then Dionysus loses his status as Ariadnes gallant savior.

So all in all, I suppose it comes down to personal preference, and there’s nothing wrong with preferring one version over the other. I just get annoyed when they act like there’s only one that’s worth talking about.

[mostcuriousmythicist]

our urls are super similar lol

Sometimes, great minds think alike 😌

[olecap]

i cant do anything about it i just love theseus so much

[mostcuriousmythicist]

In Bacchylides’s Odes of Dythyrambs, he sings about Theseus when he first entered Athens whom is said to followed by two other companions.

The herald says that only two men accompany him, and that he has a sword slung over his bright shoulders .. and two polished javelins in his hands, and a well-made Laconian hat on his head with its fire-red hair.

Bacchylides, Dythyrambs 18.45-50

It’s never said who exactly these people are but I discovered that there are a few good candidates based off other traditions.

Theseus is described as having two comrades (verse 46). It seems probable that the allusion is to Peirithous and Phorbas, whom some vase-paintings associate with Theseus in the act of carrying off the Amazon Antiope. There is also a vase which gives him two companions in his encounter with Sinis and with Procrustes’.

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse, Bacchylides: The poems and fragments page 232-233

This is mostly speculation but it’s fun to think of Pirithous as having been with Theseus from the beginning even if he’s usually on his own st this time. Oh and also Phorbas too…even if no one knows who he is 🥲

[mostcuriousmythicist]

Theseus helping to tame Cerberus with Heracles

Then, stroking the monster’s (Cerberus) sullen necks, he (Hercules) binds him with chains of adamant. Forgetful of himself, the watchful guardian of the dusky realm droops his ears, trembling and willing to be led, owns his master, and with muzzle lowered follows after, beating both his sides with snaky tail. But when he came to the Taenarian borders, and the strange gleam of unknown light smote on his eyes, though conquered he regained his courage and in frenzy shook his ponderous chains. Almost he bore his conqueror away, back dragging him, forward bent, and forced him to give ground. Then even to my (Theseus) aid Alcides looked, and with our twofold strength we drew the dog along, mad with rage and attempting fruitless war, and brought him out to earth.

Seneca, Hercules Furens 807–823.

[mostcuriousmythicist]

In Rhodes there is the Dogfish, or thresher shark. And even if you must die for it, if they won't sell it to you take it by force. The Syracusans call it fat dog. Once you have got it, submit patiently thereafter to whatever doom is decreed for you."…In fact, I imagine, says Lynceus, when Theseus grew up to be so handsome, he yielded his favours because Tlepolemus gave him this fish.

Athenaeus, The Deipnosophists 7.44

Ariadne: umm Theseus. Have you ever paid for a meal on your own? 🤨

Theseus: well not with money no. 🙂

[ilions-end]

tbh i've never been very interested in theseus-related myths

until just now when i read this lacuna'd-to-hell fragment about that disastrous time theseus and his bff pirithous went to the underworld to kidnap persephone. it hits those thebaid/apollonius' argonautica beats for me like "aw look at you about to eagerly do something Super Wrong And Stupid without realizing you're sooooo fucked"

(with bonus meleager who is already dead and having a nice underworld chat with theseus)

"But come tell [me this] from the beginning: [why] have you come [all this way to Hades? And why has Pirithous] your trusty comrade come with you? [. . .] What need had you to [come here a]live?" [Theseus the son of Aegeus spoke] first and answered him, [ ]ing at the shepherd of the peoples: "[Noble Mel]eager, son of the wise Oineus, I will tell you exactly. [Pirithous has been greatly misled by] the grim goddess Erinys: [he has come to seek] illustrious Persephone, saying that Zeus whose sport is the thunderbolt [has given approval, and according to the go]ds' customs, to contract for her as his wife. For they too are said to woo their glorious sisters, and make love to them out of sight of their dear [parents. So] he is eager to contract a marriage from among the blessed ones – his own sister from the same father; for he [claims] he is closer kin than great Hades to Persephone, the daughter of lovely-haired Demeter. For he says he is her brother, of one father, while Hades is her dear uncle. It was for that he said he was going down to the misty dark." [So he spoke,] and Oineus' son shuddered on hearing what he said, and addressed him in answer with soothing words: "[Theseus,] counsellor of the warrior Athe[nians,] was not prudent [Hippo]dameia the wife of great-spirited Pirithous?..."

i know theseus wasn't super keen on the whole "kidnapping an actual spoken-for major goddess for an incestuous marriage to a mortal" thing but the boohooing is extra rich when you know theseus' got ten year old helen imprisoned at home so that HE can have his own semidivine incestuous marriage (no he won't). heehee you boys are sooooo fucked

god i love dumbass hubristic doomed-to-fail-from-the-start ventures in greek mythology. chef's kiss

[mostcuriousmythicist]

The fragment makes me a bit curious into the evolution of this myth.

In the fragment, Theseus claims that Pirithous was misled by the furies into thinking Zeus approved of match between him and Persephone. No mention of this being part of a pact to marry a daughter of Zeus or anything about Helen. The epic is usually dated to the 7th or 6th century bc, so it’s pretty, so I wonder when exactly those other elements were included.

[sarafangirlart]

Chat, what source says that Icarius exposed Penelope as an infant only for her to get rescued by ducks? I’ve seen it spread around but I haven’t even seen that story on Wikipedia.

[thhouseofblack]

it's quite obscure in truth, and the only place I recall seeing it is in the Scholia to Pindar:

“It is said that she was first called Arnaia and was thrown into the sea by her parents, and then carried to shore by some birds called penelopes. And in this way she was recovered by her parents and named Penelope, by the same name as the birds, and when she grew up she had two names for the rest of her life.”

I prefer to go with Eustathius of Thessalonica's account of the penelops myth, which is in mentioned in his Commentary on the Odyssey, as it feels more in accordance with what we get of Icarius in all else:

So much for that. Didymos says that Penelope was first called Amirace/Ameirace or Arnacia, but when Nauplius threw her into the sea to exact vengeance for his son Palamedes, she was saved by ducks (pēnelopes), the nominative singular of which is pēnelops, and accordingly she was renamed in this way.

[sarafangirlart]

So Nauplius tries to kill Odysseus’s wife when she was a baby… to avenge his son who nearly got Odysseus’s child killed… huh

[sapocipo]

Time traveler shenanigans, the ducks saved the world from a massive loophole

[mostcuriousmythicist]

Maybe he planned to go back in time to kill Penelope, that way she would never give birth to Telemachus, and therefore Palamedes would never be involved in a baby yeeting incident that Odysseus would try to get revenge for.

Truly Nauplius’s master planning goes beyond our feeble mortal minds.

[mostcuriousmythicist]

Well it took a while but J Holts Theseus comic has finally gotten to Dionysus.

…I’m very curious as to how the comics going to address the “incident” on Naxos.

[mostcuriousmythicist]

Jason: sorry to hear that Thetis left you.

Peleus: yeah it looks like everyone else knows that me and Thetis are divorced now. At least the worst part is over now, right?

Jason: Oh Peleus….it gets much, much worse. 🥲

[mostcuriousmythicist]

The marriage of Theseus and Helen in Attic Vase Art

The tale does not reflect well on Theseus, not so much because he abducted Helen, but because the abduction caused an enemy invasion of his country…It is not hard to see why the original tale should have become unfitting for Theseus' later incarnation as an Athenian statesman, and was given less and less prominence…One significant exception to the comparative neglect of the story in later Athens is on a fifth-century vase on which his liaison with Helen is at last sanctioned by law and the gods: young and handsome, he marries a splendidly dressed Helen, with her mother, the brothers who had once invaded Attica to retrieve her, and his divine father, Poseidon (amongst others) in attendance.

Theseus, Tragedy, and the Athenian Empire by Sophie Mills, page 8.

Athenians writing a fix it fic where Theseus gets successfully marry Helen in a consensual manner with her family totally down with it. Oh and the gods decide to attend it cause why not.

[babyrdie]

E. fr. 964 (ap. DK 59a. 33) is attributed to a speech of Theseus from an unknown play. ἐγὼ δὲ παρὰ σοφοῦ τινος μαθὼν ] εἰς φροντίδ ̓ ἀεὶ συμφορὰς ἐβαλλόμην | φυγάς τ ̓ ἐμαυτῷ προστιθεὶς πάτρας ἐμῆς ¦ θανάτους ἀώρους καὶ κακῶν ἄλλας ὁδούς ¦ ἵν ̓ εἴ τι πάσχοιμ ̓ ὧν ἐδόξαζον φρενί | μή μοι νεώρες προσπεσὸν μᾶλλον δάκοι (‘I learnt from some wise man always to lay difficulties in my mind, setting before myself exile from my homeland and untimely deaths and other routes to evil, so that if I were to suffer anything of what I expected, nothing new would fall on me and sting me."). Such a speech of calm acceptance would be appropriate for Theseus as he prepares to meet the Minotaur. It is also reminiscent of S. OC 562 f.

Theseus, Tragedy, and the Athenian Empire by Sophie Mills, pg 253 note 104.

I know this was probably intentional because Theseus in ancient Greek plays is seen more as a narrative representative (of Athens, of a king, of a patriarch, whatever) than as a person in many scenes, but it's still curious to imagine a teenager on his way to a potentially horrible death (being devoured by a monster) saying that. I don't know who he's supposed to be talking to, but I'm imagining that person's reaction… why on earth is this boy calmly saying "yeah, maybe I'll suffer, but so what? I'm already expecting it! If I suffer, it won't affect me because I've already prepared myself. But if things go well, then it will be even better!"????

I can't even tell if this is more funny or more disturbing lol

Also, some context: this fragment is attributed by MIlls to a lost play about Theseus, but I don't know the possible authorship because I can only read the parts of the book available online for free, and unfortunately, the page I need to understand the context isn't one of them. I got the impression that she thinks it's likely to be a fragment of Sophocles, but I'm not sure.

[mostcuriousmythicist]

The Roman writer Cicero, in his Tusculan Disputations (written in 45BC) attributes this quote to Euripides actually:

Therefore, this ruminating beforehand upon future evils which you see at a distance, makes their approach more tolerable; and on this account, what Euripides makes Theseus say, is much commended. You will give me leave to translate them, as is usual with me -

“I treasured up what some learned sage did tell, and on my future misery did dwell; I thought of bitter death, of being drove far from my home by exile, and I strove with every evil to possess my mind, that, when they came, I the less care might find.”

Cicero, Tuscalan Disputations. 3.29

The translation I have reads a little differently in that it seems to imply that Theseus was told by some wise sage about his miserable future including being exiled and murdered. So becasue of that he learns to mentally prepare himself for it, that way he doesn’t feel anything when it actually happens.

But this one line is so fascinating to me because it’s probably one of the most in-depth looks into Theseus’s inner personality and thoughts. He imagines all the worst possible things that could happen to him so that he’ll be almost completely unattached emotionally.

But bedside that, I’m curious at what point of Theseus’s life he is supposed to say that. Depending on whether this takes place before or after events like losing Ariadne and Aegeus, it could almost serve as a reason by Theseus for remaining emotionally unattached so as to avoid any future heartbreak.

[babyrdie]

Theseus, Ariadne, and the young tributes defeat a more animalistic Minotaur in a 7th century BCE representation

[…] In the seventh century we find a clear, albeit unusual, representation on a Tenian-Boiotian relief pithos of about 650 B.C. now in Basel (BS 617). Here the Minotaur has the reverse of his usual form, with the body of a bull and the head (unfortunately missing, but there is long hair) of a man; there are also traces of a horn. Since he has no hands, he naturally holds no weapon; Theseus for his part approaches the monster with a stone in his raised hand, and he is followed by three women and two men in the same position with raised stones. All appear to be holding on to a thread with their other hand; it runs horizon- tally across the four figures on the upper band of the scene, then drops down to Theseus and the remaining (female) figure on the lower band. This last figure, though directly behind Theseus, seems to be in the same attitude as the others, but possibly she is nonetheless Ariadne. Alternatively, the last figure in the sequence (far left on the upper band) might be so interpreted, with Ariadne here guarding the entrance or holding the end of the thread. In any event, aside from the maverick Minotaur we have also an early illustration of the (logical enough) idea that the other young men and women were sent into the Labyrinth at the same time as Theseus, and aided in the fight. […]

Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic sources by Timothy Gantz, pg 266.

In the visual arts, the thread already appears in the earliest known representation of the encounter between Theseus and the Minotaur, on the neck of a Cycladic relief pithos of ca. 650 b.c. in Basel (Fig. 4). Here Theseus and five companions, two boys and three girls, confront a monster that is part quadruped, part human. Theseus and his companions hold rocks in one raised hand and a thread in the other hand. Like mountaineers on a sheer ice wall, whose means of survival is the rope linking them together, the Athenian boys and girls cling to the thread, which will ensure their escape from the Labyrinth if they defeat the monster with their stones. The representation on the pithos indicates that, in the 7th century, the Minotaur was already to be found in the dark and disorienting Labyrinth, from which there was to be no escape, and that Ariadne’s thread was the key to survival in the maze.

Bild, Mythos, and Ritual Choral Dance in Theseus’s Cretan Adventure on the François Vase by Guy Hedreen, pg 495.

Theseus and the Athenian children in the Labyrinth. Cycladic relief pithos, ca. 650 b.c. Basel, Antikenmuseum und Sammlung Ludwig, BS 617 (Kä 601). Photo courtesy Antikenmuseum Basel und Sammlung Ludwig. Photo A. F. Voegelin.

I admit I liked this idea more than the idea of ​​Theseus being the only one to physically do anything, with the tributes usually being in another part of the labyrinth and Ariadne not being in the labyrinth at all. I like the idea of ​​Ariadne and the tributes being there, actively helping to kill the Minotaur. Maybe because I love teamwork in stories lol. It also makes it seem less like a victory for Theseus against a monster and more like an Athenian victory against the Cretan's oppression. The potential for Ariadne to have been there at the Minotaur's death and, in fact, to be actively collaborating in it is intriguing as well. Although, to be frank, I prefer the usual depiction of the bipedal Minotaur rather than the quadrupedal Minotaur. Anyway, the fact that this source is so old (7th century BCE) makes me wonder how much this myth has changed over the years…

[alabanza-a-lucretia]

Ariadne: Do you really love me?

Theseus: In this life and in almost all my other lives

Hippolytus: Do you really regret it?

Theseus: There isn't a day that goes by that I don't do it.

Helen:...

Theseus:...

Helen: I'm waiting for my apology

Theseus: To be honest, my only regret is the leg pain I got from being among the rocks.

[mostcuriousmythicist]

Wherefore some writers, thinking to correct this heaviest accusation against him (Theseus), say that he did not carry off Helen himself, but that when Idas and Lynceus had carried her off, he received her in charge and watched over her and would not surrender her to the Dioscuri⁠ when they demanded her; or, if you will believe it, that her own father, Tyndareüs, entrusted her to Theseus, for fear of Enarsphorus, the son of Hippocoön, who sought to take Helen by force while she was yet a child.

Plutarch, Life of Theseus. 31.1