I need that new season already I wanna make more art of Assad.
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@my-maitre
I need that new season already I wanna make more art of Assad.
you are beautiful and you are alone
Day 2: "You break my heart, you little fool. You always did." / Heartbreaker
Welcome to the second week of #ArmandShipFest, celebrating the relationship between Armand and Lestat de Lioncourt, from the books The Vampi
Day 1: "Cinderella revealed at the ball" / Succubus
Welcome to the second week of #ArmandShipFest, celebrating the relationship between Armand and Lestat de Lioncourt, from the books The Vampi
fake Rashid sketch
moments in love.
Amadeo sleeps
welcome Brazilians! fuck Elon Musk
kicking these sketches over to u
Weirdly as an Armand stan, I feel like Armand should have been...worse.
Maybe worse/better isn't putting it right.
He should have been scarier.
The Armand I think of as the "real" Armand is the one we got in 2.05. So I know they know he's like that. It isn't exactly that he's evil, but when he hurts, when he's frightened, when he's cornered, he becomes something wild and vicious. Even when he's calm, there's a cold ruthlessness to him when dealing with people he doesn't care about.
So what the fuck is up with this wishy-washy betrayal?
The narrative as displayed on the show:
-Armand realizes he and Louis don't share values, so they need to break up. -The coven confronts Armand with the trial script and give him an ultimatum (disputed in fandom, never contradicted on the show). -Armand chooses loyalty to the coven and directs the play, bowing to their wishes. There are people who overestimate the role of a director and assume this means he engineered the entire thing, but see the problems in the next section below. -The tribunal is going to kill both Claudia and Louis. -The tribunal just kills Claudia. Lestat saves Louis. -Armand is demoted and punished (confirmed by Assad). -Armand, perhaps because of guilt, rescues Louis from the wall and urges him to leave Paris. -Armand makes the split-second decision to lie about saving Louis at the trial. This ends up saving his life. He lets Louis kill everyone in the coven (presumably because he's gotten a good look at how fickle they are toward him). -Louis chooses to continue their romance to spite Lestat, who keeps Armand's secret. -Daniel exposes the fact that Armand was free to choose Louis the entire time, that he was never in danger, and he chose the coven instead.
Things that have been said by Assad that contradict this version of events:
-Claudia "had to go" because she was in the way of what Armand wanted. Thing is, Armand wanted Louis, and he was going to let Louis die, so this makes no sense. -Armand "engineered" the "deaths" of Claudia and Louis both. No motive is presented to us. Moreover, there's genuinely nothing in the show that suggests this as opposed to Armand being strong-armed by a coven he lost control over. That version of events is never contradicted in the show.
And here's the thing: if I had my way, Armand would be the force behind it all, because having him fold to his own coven makes him the very opposite of scary. He'd never do it in the books. FFS, in the books, he slaughtered more than half of his last coven in a fit of madness (and I am convinced it's one of the things he blatantly lied about in 2.03). But to see what's actually presented on the show and to hear Rolin talk, they were deeply concerned with him remaining as empathetic as possible, so it looks to me like they did that by simply making him (/plays guitar) ANEMIC ROYALTYYYYY instead of a wild little gremlin. Instead of being empathetic, he's just pathetic. Instead of making the connection between Armand's history and his present behavior, the average viewer says, "That's just how he is. He lies about everything. Who knows why. He doesn't need a reason."
I can't help but feel this season should have ended with the average viewer saying "Oh he's crazy crazy." Which they kind of said of 2.05, but by the time 2.08 rolls around, they've sort of forgotten that side of him (which isn't a side, really, it's what lies beneath the mask).
And I mean, Armand in the books is definitely prone to bouts of self-pity. That's how people react when their trauma goes unvalidated. It's not playing the victim, either, he really does feel that way.
Maybe they're counting on next season to give context to both Lestat and Armand? It would make sense for Lestat to be the one to give real perspective on Armand, because Louis doesn't really know him and Armand himself is too guarded to be forthcoming. Lestat has seen Armand at his worst, but, at least in the books, he has a crippling amount of compassion for him as well.
I just...I need the gremlin. I need him to be terrifying, because only then can he turn around and be weird. He's endearing in DM because people looked at the "uncomprehending villain" of the last two books and saw him stuffing packs of cigarettes down the garbage disposal, laughing till he cried at movies, and quizzing Daniel about why war happens because he's never understood all that shit. That last was the moment I fell for him. He understands the vampiric instinct to kill, but humans don't have that. Humans just kill and maim each other anyway. The vampire who caused so much destruction asking, "What is the physical need to destroy?"
The innocence hidden beneath the cruelty and violence.
The writers know that innocence exists, but the innocence means very little if he isn't legitimately cruel and violent. If he doesn't make hard choices in the name of survival when the issue at hand isn't a matter of survival. If people don't suffer because he thinks suffering is what everyone does all the time anyway.
They know the cruelty exists, because they showed it in 2.05. They know exactly how to write an Armand who isn't pretending to be normal.
I just worry they've undermined what makes Armand so special as a character in their quest to keep him empathetic.
I really don't agree.
Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from, and I understand that people feel disappointment / want more scariness from Armand. I certainly look forward to seeing actual gremlin.
But I don't agree that there's anything wrong w.r.t. this in the series so far, and it mostly comes down to this:
The series so far has explicitly and overtly been told from Louis and Armand's perspectives - and towards a certain other party (Daniel) at that.
Neither of those parties see Armand as the gremlin that he is, and in their limited perspectives and psychological viewpoints there have been ample hints of more and scariness - they've just been peppered over by the narrative, as they should.
About your list of "narrative as displayed on the show":
Are you under the impression that people are perfectly rational creatures, who make a list of their goals and then follow a calculated list of steps towards them?
Do you think that ARMAND - who is a collection of traumas under a trench coat - is supposed to be completely rational and calculated about his goals - or even aware of them all - and then perfectly ruthlessly efficient in obtaining them?
Again: I understand the lure of a perfect mastermind character. But such a character is also boring, imho.
What they've done with Armand: giving him conflicting goals, impulses, complex inner workings, stupid, stupid reactions, etc - those make him an interesting character. A good character, an incredibly realistic one. And since exposing the humanity in extremis of the vampires seems to me to be one of the main themes in the books, as well as a stated goal of the series' creators, I think they're doing a very good job of it. And one I like immensely.
Again, I can understand people feeling frustrated about the perceived inconsistencies, especially with what the actors and creators have said.
But: the inconsistencies in the material itself are deliberate, or at least most of them, as I think they've shown - and the writers have talked about. And the rest of what you mention is a difference in viewpoint/dimension/perspective: what Assad talks about with, for example, 'Claudia needing to go' is an emotional reaction of his character. Claudia is a thorn in his side, because he's a jealous, toxic mess who wants absolutely everything of his lover's. That doesn't mean that the character sat down and made a list how to go about getting that, much less that they made an efficient and effective one.
About the last couple of paragraphs: all of this is imo already in the series. It's subtle, it's set dressing of a kind, but even outside of ep 5 Armand treats people like objects, he's distanced from everything, he's as cruel to other people as he is to himself (though in different ways), the list goes on. And it's also basically spelled out in the text that both Armand cannot or does not ever admit anything, and that Louis is willfully blind regarding him. Claudia herself throws this at his head, just for example.
So even if reading between the lines is not enough for you, I'm very sure that there is more to come.
I like it when people disagree because I like having a conversation, and I like having my mind changed when I have reservations about something I like. That being said, you're responding to a number of things I haven't said, things you're probably tired of seeing in other peoples' takes, and I don't blame you, especially when you're tired. I agree that it's frustrating when people expect Armand to be a mastermind. He's just not. He doesn't understand people well enough, nor is he really predisposed to a ton of planning as opposed to improvising.
As you'll see in other notes, my issue is with him apparently rolling over to his coven. Also in the notes, you'll see me coming around to realizing he's been portraying himself in a specific way so he can be the anti-Lestat he thinks Louis wants.
Now, expecting a character to have motivations is not the same as expecting them to act perfectly rationally all the time. One is a fundamental part of character building, the other is just annoying. If Armand has no reason to want Louis dead, the only explanation for his behavior according to the information we have now is that he is letting his coven push him around, which makes him seem neutered rather than dangerously unstable. We will probably gain new insight into this from Lestat next season, but as it stands, I think it's okay to have some concerns about where they're taking him and work them out with fellow fans. :)
Sincerely, thank you for your reply. I think more people should join discussions with alternate viewpoints.
I don't want to come off wrong with this either, or rude. As I'm about to just explain why I think his motivations aren't actually all that wishy-washy wrt the trail, and that we do have some information, just not explicitly. And I know it's not exactly the point being made here.
Matter of fact, I'd agree that the show is probably doing things too subtly, and open to too much interpretation, for an average audience. And something to find plainly "scarier" or at least more direct would've fixed this. What they've got is great for someone like me who loves picking stuff apart, but would probably fall flat as a character, especially for those who love book!Mand, for those who aren't. It's the point they're after, but it is difficult to understand Show!mand unless you're sitting with it to pick this kind of stuff apart. I think they're going to go for a slow reveal of things though, developing him exponentially next season, I'd imagine. Anyway, I hope this just reads as adding my own thoughts to this, which you've said were welcome. I do like this conversation going on here!
I just wanted to highlight something that's not necessarily been, with how Armand may not so much as been simply neutered by the coven, or giving into them for whatever whim or unpassioned and uncertain reason he has, as been said. But that there was some much greater and decisive inciting which brought on his involvements, and subsequent lies about them. That have nothing to do with either his personal desires or intentions with Louis or Claudia, but rather falling victim to the covens regards for them, yes.
Though, it appears to me that his cowardice is brought on by something much greater than just himself then. What he calls a one time thing. More over, that there's an apparent lack of self present in this act. So, he can't even attempt to be the gremlin during this period of the trial being rehearsed and ensued, by the very creation of it. I'd figure the same, that even if upset about Louis' behaviors, and disdain for Claudia, either wouldn't make Show!Armand, on his own, elect to the trial, let alone scheme it. And that he might emotionally think to do a thing of similar end, but he would always be overrided by his much greater motivations of love. (At his core Armand as a character is about love, and having to come to a better understanding of how to love.)
This all leading towards the likelihood some actual threat then - as has been implied and explicitly stated in the show - was legitimately posed onto him. Which in turn made him take on this new mask of a Coward. Someone who's choices in things aren't actual real choices. Being without his own character, 'out of character from what one would expect', becomes therefore a narrative device to intentionally mislead (the writers were loving it this season).
Even if he'd come around to seeing the threat wasn't one that was real, that this Coward mask was wholly unnecessary - and the point he had could very well've been only after the coven was caput, or in that month just before. Maybe the moment Louis is saved. - He seems to still figure the very idea of the threat itself was enough, at the time, to make him causally believe, to this day, that 'there was no preventing it'.
Through this, he protects the innocence of this Coward that's still inside him somewhere, from what he couldn't have known.
Anyway, I strongly believe there is actually no lie about there being such a threat imposed on Armand to a degree someone like him would actually have believed it, or at least strongly think to believe it. It's something I discuss here with how he parallels Madeleine's story arc: X (CW: SA mention; also take this as a CW for the rest of the reply). It's something the line 'or they'd kill me' seems to suggest without necessarily stating how they'd do it. And it's something of a stretch too, I'm aware, that Armand's own election to hide very distinct details from Daniel specifically, seems to (at least to me) imply. Imply, Claudia had written things she overheard the coven intended to do with Armand, or would like to do to him, and then do act on wrt this very thing that becomes this threat he deems real enough to become cowardice for.
(It seems apt as well to point out I'm referring to the episode that deals with all these various themes and ideas. And that motivationally Armand not simply telling Louis what really happened is equally the threat looming and the shame building. Both would likely compound on each other into keeping up this act.)
The reasons I think this is with how Daniel takes to needing to know about Claudia's SA (Armand recall knows prior to the interview this cold disregard for sexual violence is a part of him), and with how they've not hidden the fact Armand has mistreated Claudia so far. Louis would know already anything said in them so it's not about keeping him with him. Which to me can only mean those pages weren't about that. 'why did I owe you my one act of cowardice? Why did I you my shame?' therefore turns into a way of saying, 'I was traumatized, which I don't owe you the story of, and yet also I didn't stand up against it. Even though I know I am powerful enough to, and I am ashamed of that.' As opposed to simply being, 'I don't want you knowing these specific details, just cause it makes me look kind of bad.' Which he does care about that, but he only seems to care about hiding anything to the extent it would actually effect him. And what even would be in Claudia's dairy's to suggest it had something to do with the bigger coverup? She cuts off right before they go about doing it.
I think, to Armand, Daniel is a present reminder of this very threat he faced before, and a threat in how he has the potential to replicate it by being one to him for all sorts of other reasons. It makes narrative sense Armand would put back on a masked personality in the presence of a threat like this, as "Rashid". Who is much like the Coward - able to express opinions about how this is going to go, but not necessarily the role able to exert anything else over the continuing of the situation. And this narrative parallel isn't as strong to include, for me, if Armand had nothing to actually feel threatened by in Paris. Though "Rashid" exists for all reasons Daniel is threatening so it makes sense regardless.
The gremlin in him - the part that would fight back - is pretty much squandered to be any part in this 'one act', when the coven presumably puts him under the same kinds of conditions where that sort of aspect would've been severely punished - with Marius. (Who we're already meant to draw some associations to wrt Daniel.) So, he might as well not have any power, when he is seeing to the coven through the trauma-lens of: They are the abuser who did have all the power over him. (note; Santiago specifically mirrors Marius in how he's become his new 'master', and will show mercy on him if he behaves. This entire aspect falls short if he didn't actually replicate this in any earned way.)
To add some onto other topics here, with Louis, he fears letting that side Gremlin out all the times. And if it comes out, it's provoked. With no real need to mask himself, which was about all he was in Paris, he's still just as ashamed, or lost to reasoning with this dark side of himself, as he is with the cowardice. He's at least aware it's not the sort of behaviors Louis would approve of, and he might fear Louis not liking him if he were to behave in this rampaging, putting rats in blenders, or torturing the guy considered a friend for a week, kind of way. Obviously. But I also think the otherwise mellowed out personality he takes on is just as much his own personality now, as is the gremlin. He's just not lending to lean into this freak he could be, unless provoked. Which isn't even then the real gremlin either. (This is pretty much reiteration of things already said though.) But I repeat to say he's like, just almost, fully himself. In a way. Maybe even, just almost, telling the full truth about everything? And I'd say they should be building up towards both.
I feel with what the writers are doing with Armand as a character is leaning into this division of identity, and the relations trauma has on replicating, and taking on identities that are not necessarily ours. Or that actively work against us, and other people in our lives. How severe abuse happens to necessitate a level of monstrosity to be able to take on certain and uncertain other monstrosities. How it blinds us to knowing the extent of our own horrors as horrific, be that perpetrated or subjected. And the natural personal consequence of such traumatizations being this unfixed sense of self, as well as a deep shame about what that self is, does, or what it's been subjected to. Which ends up also inevitably hurting everyone else out of his life, sometimes deliberately. It makes finding and knowing how to love, others and yourself, debilitatingly difficult.
And THIS IS very compelling writing of Armand, to me. Personally. It feels well-rounded to me. It makes it narratively easier on the writers convincing an audience there's something redemptive there - there's something innocent there. If they're putting together his main book arc of acceptance/admittance, and finding the kind of love he'd always been really after, which ends up being familial not romantic. Leaning into the horrific isn't necessary and could just become confused.
Anyway, I really can't wait for them to explore him more as well! I want to see how these aspects of him progress, or are shown in regress because of flashbacks!
"Armand told the truth," eh?
This is a really, really interesting analysis. It leans into what I and some others have been discussing about him potentially having a fractured personality (structural dissociation I believe it's called). And this is actually kind of supported by the books. Armand in the books is distressed and ashamed of the sadism and violence he's capable of, as if he doesn't actually identify with it the majority of the time. The language he uses, saying he never enjoyed it, but knowing he did it anyway.
Hell, it's even how Louis talks about him. "Is it the gremlin or the good nurse tonight?" We still don't know how many memories Armand removed, or why. Maybe he panicked about Louis seeing what he was really capable of.
At the same time, there's also a point in the books where we learn Armand is ashamed of capitulating to Santino and staying with the Children of Darkness for so long. He saw himself as weak for it (this in his fight with Marius in TVA--he's projecting alllll kinds of shit and we find out how he really thinks of himself).
Sam was saying last season that we hadn't seen the real Lestat. Assad has been saying this season that we haven't seen the real Armand. Therefore, you're right--the "Coward" is yet another mask he wears for whatever reason. The appearance of being defeated was very useful to him, and even allowed him to save Louis.
I do think you're right about them emphasizing identity with him. That one line in 2.04 felt like a thesis statement about him: "Who am I, Louis? Am I my history I have endured? Am I the job I do not want? I do not know anymore. No one has painted me in over 400 years."
Yeah, yeah. I haven't read that far into TVA (I just started lol). But I'd say from what you're saying this shame surrounding Santino, and his capitulation, is definitely fuel for his subjugation being detrimentally easy. If he no longer finding he much even wants what is his right to even fight back against it?? It may motivate further distancing from the role of leader if he dislikes who he is/has been in that position, and what it means. I guess. Moreover then, he's some level of wanting the position of no power - taking no fundamental issue with Santiago's takeover - which might be his only gain out of not standing up against the coerciveness of the coven.
And yet I think we have to recognize it is coercive regardless of it accomplishing something of benefit. There's still an element of where the conditions for personal gain are not able to come without some level of being coerced as well (with or without other threats also being put in place). Say for instance you want to be touched, and someone can offer that, but the touch provided is beating you half to death. Which does, technically, meet what you were wanting, but the nature of how it took place is diametrically opposed to it being anything but what you had not wished for, when wanting to be touched. Forcing someone to accept that kind of condition to get what they want would be coercive. (And assault). If Armand falls to the same, not wanting how it came about (which is textually true), it has to be coercive in this way. They used their own power against him to get him to accept something he doesn't want. Even if he might've come around to this consensus eventually, on his own terms, the way it comes about is never consensual. And nothing suggests he came around to wanting to what the outcomes are by the time they were taking place. (He looks DISTRAUGHT by all of it.)
Now the 'threat' could very well be multifaceted then. Where him not getting his one benefit would be his personally assigned threat if he doesnāt comply - and - if he doesnāt comply with things that are not his motivation, there is a still a likely possibility of outside threat they could still pose otherwise. Be that a kind of emotional abandonment or physical force (ātheyād kill meā and Armand might think whatever it was theyād do is the equivalent of that). A justification comes in somewhere during this of 'I did not see us lasting as long,' but this does nothing to remove the fact these threats are there and act coercively.
So, if he really is threatened on both ends of this, whether heās complying or doesnāt, this would only add to the thinking āI could not prevent it.ā If he prevented it, he'd not get something he wants, if he did, he's not get something he wants. I don't think the third option of him getting everything he wants by acting as he really could have it even occurs to him given the nature of his abuse and coercion. Now, itās a selfish, and arrogant statement - seeing as he could very well have done something, and probably would've if he had nothing to gain - but this coercion seems to have worked then if he is made a Coward for it. The coven essentially uses all his own desires, as well as what is not his desires, against him to get him to do what they want him to do. It's a manipulation on all sides. (+ its super likely they know he's not attached to being MaĆ®tre anymore, they were stalking him and Louis when this very thing is discussed. And It's hinted somewhat, but not a necessity in this, that his mind was invaded whenever Louis goes to change Madeleine which opens a good opportunity to strike and make him better believe 'it wouldn't last').
Manipulation and coercion in my 200 year old coven cult? It's more likely than you think!
(also I'm WITH the structural dissociation read of him so hard)
Nish my beloved
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iwtv single handedly revived my interest in drawing anything after 3 yearsā¦.
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Louis and Armand watch antiques roadshow together every sunday. In case u didnāt knowā¤ļø