What Are yourself thoughts on the recent Reveal of Aegon's prophecy? I have lost a lot of respect towards George for introducing at this stage one of the worst fantasy clichés to justify the Targaryen invasion of sovereign realms.
These are prophecies that ultimately played out as the climax of the original series. This show suggests that not only are they known by the Targaryens 200 years before, but they’ve been known for about a century.
Condal: I think they were very intrigued by that. A lot of them said I committed A Song of Ice and Fire heresy, but I did tell them: “That came from George.” I reassured everybody.
What is the significance of these prophecies, George? Unless I’ve missed it, is this something you wrote in one of the books, or is that an invention of the show?
Martin: It’s mentioned here and there—in connection with Prince Rhaegar, for example [the brother of Daenerys, played on Game of Thrones by Wilf Scolding]. I mean, it’s such a sprawling thing now. In the Dunk and Egg stories [about a future king, “Egg,” a.k.a. Aegon V], there’s one of Egg’s brothers who has these prophetic dreams, which of course he can’t handle. He had become a drunkard because they freaked him out. If you go all the way back to Daenys the Dreamer, why did she leave? She saw the Doom of Valyria coming. All of this is part of it, but I’m still two books away from the ending, so I haven’t fully explained it all yet.
Is one of the implications of this series that the Targaryens might’ve been better prepared for the doomsday prophecy if not for this Dance of Dragons civil war that decimated their family and stripped them of these powerful beasts?
Martin: I don’t want to give too much away, because some of this is going to be in the later books, but this is 200 years before the events of Game of Thrones. There was no sell-by date on that prophecy. That’s the issue. The Targaryens that know about it are all thinking, Okay, this is going to happen in my lifetime, I have to be prepared! Or, It’s going to happen in my son’s lifetime. Nobody said it’s going to happen 200 years from now. If the Dance of the Dragons had not happened, what would’ve happened to the next generation? What would’ve happened in the generation after that? Yeah, there’s a lot to be unwound there.
For Seven’s sake, where’s Robert Baratheon when you need him?
(Warning: Disorganized ranting under the cut. Your feelings are shared)
I pretty much agree with your assessment. You have every right to be angry with this interpretation, considering it gives the Targaryens a twisted justification as Chosen Ones for conquering Westerosi lands “to save the world!” GRRM says he put foreshadowing here and there, but that was only about Targs having prophetic visions. Notice how no examples he cited were in Fire and Blood 1, aka the novel that dealt with Aegon I the most. In F&B1, it was Argilac’s snubbing of Orys, Harren’s tyranny in the Riverlands, and the implication that he and Visenya had planned the invasion for years. Furthermore, Aegon was offered an alliance multiple times over by the Durrandons, Martells, and Arryns; surely a network of alliances would do just as well for fighting a threat than conquest? But no, Aegon would settle for nothing except submission. The Field of Fire killed 5,000 Reach/Westermen and wounded tens of thousands more. But it’s ok guys, he apparently did it to save millions. The background politics of the Westeros situation was just a waste of time; F&B1 was too busy mocking feminism (Jeyne Poore as a horrendous caricature of Joan of Arc; the Maiden’s Day Cattle Show a mockery of the feminist protest of the 1968 Miss America beauty pageant) and sexualizing teenage girls to give any attention to such trivial matters as a potential prophecy that has implications for the entire series backstory. Well, that’s $20.00 I’m not getting back. It’s a retcon, and a particularly frustrating and nonsensical one at that. At this point, I’m just throwing up my hands and saying that GRRM can say this in an interview, but it doesn’t mean I have to believe Aegon I invaded to fight the others. It’s not book canon, but seems like a desperate attempt to get fans interested in a show based on a story the majority of us hate/don’t care about.
The Targaryens thought themselves above “the laws of gods and men” and their special affinity for dragons among other powers gave them the right to rule; this prophecy helps support that. Of course, thinking that you alone can lead the fight to stop the apocalyptic threat plays right into Targaryen exceptionalism, but at the same time thousands of people died just so Aegon could theoretically battle against a threat he saw in a dream. It also turns the Dornish resistance into working against Aegon’s and for humanity, as they’re refusing to work under Aegon. Aegon’s Dornish wars caused mass destruction of Dorne (killing many of their leaders) and killed many of his enemies-turned-allies…was that supposed to be part of his plan? Anyhow, this prophecy centers on the conqueror and his actions, while the feelings/actions of the conquered people are ignored or demonized (GRRM was also criticized for this with his handling of the Ghiscari).
The worst part is this isn’t the first time GRRM has retconned something into making the Targs look better; from BR being allowed to take Dark Sister with him to the Wall; to saying Brienne was a Dunkscendant and perhaps part Targaryen; comparing Daenerys to Nymeria of Ny Sar…and just the fact that all of his supplemental books have been focused on the Targaryens, who in the main series are one significant character and her secret nephews. The Starks, who he said are the heart of the series, are barely side characters; the Baratheons are demonized; the Lannisters uninteresting; the Greyjoys one-note; the Martells have particularly bad writing…it’s all the Targaryen show these days. I think GRRM let Dany’s popularity on the show influence his writing to the point that the Targaryens are the supplemental material’s protagonists, hence they get painted in a better light despite the wider implications (conquest apology) that creates.
I redid my old piece of Catelyn on her wedding day. ;u; Not that I mind the original, I just wanted to compare where I’m at now vs 5 years ago. (Also I’ve been slowly making my way through the Clash of Kings audiobook and her chapters are giving me Feelings again.)
My Secret Santa gift for @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly ♥ Post-canon AU of the Queen in the North and her captain of the guards (with fat puppies everywhere).
hey there, what is your opinion on Rhaenyra? (I know it’s unpopular but I don’t see her as a good ruler because some of her actions shows tyranny, maybe I’m just bitter that Rhaenys the queen who never was didn’t become queen despite having a better claim and the potential 🤷♀️).
Hi anon!
I’ve spoken a little about Rhaenyrà in some responses to other people’s answers, and mostly I’m just annoyed at how GRRM wrote her character, especially how she was basically supplanted as protagonist by Dæmon Targaryen, a character he liked too much for his own good.
I don’t think your stance that she’s not a good ruler is unpopular at all; once she’s torturing her most important allies, demanding the execution of a girl protected by guest right from another ally, raising taxes and executing people to the point there’s riots to drive her out within 6 months, failing to provide critical aid resulting in the death of another ally, and then F&B1 invents the Silent Five, a flagrant act of tyranny for essentially speaking the truth…well, it’s hard to claim that she was anything but a tyrant. That’s half the point of the Dance of the Dragons, that neither her nor Aegon II were good rulers. However, GRRM forgot to give Rhænyra any redeeming features (unless you count love for her children, the same trait as Cersei). Even Aegon II demonstrated more bravery, fighting in battle twice, and even some diplomacy, considering he was able to take Dragonstone (of which Rhænyra had been liege since 113, demonstrating she was an awful ruler even then) by convincing some of her men to defect, all while disguising himself. He even has a better dragon; Sunfyre was able to detect Aegon needed him after he was wounded, and the two spent months searching for each other; whereas Syrax is lazy and her most important contribution to the war was getting Joffrey killed. Rhænyra didn’t have a single success in her reign, neither military nor diplomatic; the credit belongs to Dæmon (more on how he steals from her narrative later), Corlys Velaryon (who supported her and Dæmon though it’s strongly implied Dæmon murdered his only son and Rhænyra wanted to name her illegitimate children heirs to that son’s seat), and her son Jacaerys (with the dragon seeds and successfully treating with Northern allies). Her only consistent positive attribute was her beauty, but then GRRM relishes in telling us how she never lost pregnancy weight and how it took 6 bites for Sunfyre to eat her (much like how Cersei’s downfall is associated with her gaining weight). When people more competent than Rhænyra include a literal teenage boy and her drunken half-brother, and all of them are men, I can’t help but think there’s some misogyny involved.
There’s two main problems with this: 1) It’s not at all accurate to the Anarchy and 2) Rhænyra’s character, arc, and contributions are minimized in favor of Authorial Favorite Dæmon Targaryen.
In real life, Empress Matilda was the only surviving legitimate child of Henry I, never taught to rule and in fact shipped to the Holy Roman Empire at age 8, wed to the incompetent 13-year-old Geoffrey Plantagenet at 25 to settle a border dispute, was supported mainly by her illegitimate half-brother Robert Of Gloucester and her uncle David of Scotland, her forces succeeded in capturing rival Stephen but thanks to forces under the control of Stephen’s wife Mathilde (an absolute BAMF who also got the Scots to stay neutral) was driven away from London after an attempted coronation, staged a daring escape in the middle of winter when she was besieged at Oxford, swapped Robert for Stephen, fought a stalemate that divided the country, became a diplomat for her son Henry, and died peacefully age 65. She was bold, daring, spent her Formative years out of her home country, she couldn’t care less that her husband sired 3 illegitimate children (I mean her own dad sired 24. Really more medieval English kings had illegitimate children than not), she was capable of negotiating for her valuable allies, and we don’t even know what she looked like. She was not vain, incompetent, cowardly, undiplomatic, outwardly prejudiced toward illegitimate children, paranoid, or attempted to murder her husband’s lover. Which brings me to that husband in question…
GRRM got so interested in writing Dæmon Targaryen’s story that he reduced Rhænyra—the only widely acclaimed Targaryen queen claimant pre-canon, thus the natural protagonist of this story—to a prop in it as one of his many lovers. Dæmon gets all of the cool equipment and achievements Rhænyra lacks: the ancestral sword Dark Sister (which was made for a woman’s hands. Queen Rhaenys Targaryen Velaryon got super robbed), a special “bloodwyrm” dragon Caraxes that was “fearsome and experienced” in battle, he has multiple exceptional women motivated by their attraction to him when he’s less than faithful and quite cruel (not just Rhænyra, but the spymaster Mysaria, and the dragon warriors Laena and Nettles, with even Alicent rumored to have been his lover; suspiciously, Rhænyra stops taking lovers once she’s wed to him), despite having even less diplomatic skills than Rhænyra made up for it by massive success in battle even without using Caraxes (even though the military tactics described in the Taking of Stone Hedge are so bullshit even I could tell GRRM was tipping his hand), his hold over the gold cloaks was so strong even after years out of service that they betrayed the Greens for him…this is very over-the-top, especially when GRRM wrote Rhænyra as not being a warrior and constantly alienating her closest allies. She even alienates Dæmon by ordering Nettles’ death, causing him to have one of his few acts of humanity by telling Nettles to flee while he flies off to heroically die fighting actual cartoon villain Aemond (who becomes his biggest enemy because the established Rhænyra/Alicent&Aegon conflict wasn’t enough…Dæmon needs his own special rival) and the biggest dragon Vhagar. Yes, the man complicit in the murders of children gets a badass death in battle while Rhænyra gets eaten by a dragon after being betrayed by her closest allies. Rhaenyra starts off entitled and ends up a torturer and a tyrant, but Dæmon starts off as a predatory sadist and ends up…having a moment of reflection after Nettles‘ death warrant and successfully kills the Greens’ best warrior/dragon with his dying breath. Does this seem fair? Need I remind you that The Princess and the Queen was published as part of the anthology “Dangerous Women”, thus promising us a female centric conflict; but after The Rogue Prince it became the Daemon Story, with the female characters sexually connected to him to the point it’s their primary motivation (Mysaria) or character turning point (Nettles). All the female characters suffered to prop up Daemon, but with Rhaenyra it’s particularly frustrating because she was supposed to be the protagonist (with the requisite character arc, character assets to balance out those flaws, and fittingly tragic ending.) No surprise, my frustration with Dæmon (a recent addition to the Targ canon, considering how he didn’t even emerge as a character until TPATQ and thus has never been mentioned in canon era. The attempt to claim Daena named her son after this man is a pathetic retcon) as an authorial favorite nearly on the level of Bl00draven feeds into how annoyed I am with Rhænyra’s character. Maybe it’s just harder for GRRM to empathize with evil female characters than evil male ones (just look at Jaime and Tyrion versus Cersei), thus they get written with few of the gimmicks or nuance that make the latter so beloved.
Ursa never seems to ask herself, how will my young daughter react to her mother morphing into a stranger affect her, I don't remember if her personality was retained (if it wasn't then that's worse the robbed Kiyi of the only mother she has known) but the face that Kiyi was used to is gone. all for what to please, ZUKO. defiantly not to try to help Azula. Ursa really speed running how many daughter can i disregard just to please Zuko. Kiyi is super scared of her for some time, but both ursa and the writers decide those feelings aren't valid so Kiyi gets over them. Kiyi's reaction is normal. A small child would be terrified if a women demanded she be treated as her mother despite looking nothing like her. that terror may dissipate, but the thought "my own mother would be willing to submit me to that ordeal" would stay with that child right??? But the writers refuse to have post show Zuko or Ursa deal with real consequences.
The real problem with seeing Ozai's Sozin Comet's plans as a mass genocide the way people like to
Is that it means Zuko heard about the supposed "kill 90% of the world's population" plan, and decided "I should avoid telling my new friends the Gaang about this until the literal last minute."
And that it means that Iroh head about the "kill 90% of the world's population," had a chance to try to stop it, and instead went "not my problem, I just really feel the need to conquer Ba Sing Se today." Iroh tells Zuko and Katara to seize the throne, but he doesn't even tell Sokka, Suki, and Toph to try to stop the airship plan, they decide to stop it on their own.
Practically, the entire thing makes no sense whatsoever (they can't possibly burn it all down in a day and what about the Fire Nation colonies and troops in the Earth Kingdom?), but writing wise that's far from the only issue with it.
Also:
These airships are terribly slow. Zuko was able to catch up with Aang in his pathetic air balloon. While Azula didn't even try to catch up with the Avatar in these airships because they were so slow.
All the airships didn't even try to disperse but flew strictly in one line, which significantly reduced the area they generated by fire.
Considering that the comet was in the sky for only one day. They simply wouldn't have had time to clear even a small part of the continent.
And they wouldn't have had time to fly to the Northern Water Tribe either.
Ba Sing Se and New Ozai (former Omashu) are not worth mentioning. They are already part of the Fire Nation with a garrison and administration.
As a result, all this turns into complete absurdity. There are simply no targets on the world map that Ozai would want to burn, not to mention the very opportunity. And the targets he would really like to burn are simply too far away.
And even if Ozai had a doomsday button, why would he press it? For a hundred years, the Fire Nation had been conquering the continent and eventually conquered it entirely. And once they had achieved that, they simply decided to completely annihilate the continent and remain trapped on their islands again?!
And the cherry on top. Zuko's speech itself, in which he praised the strong and rebelliousness spirit of the people of the Earth Kingdom, also makes no sense. What people was Zuko talking about? The inhabitants of Ba Sing Se who are suppressed, robbed and literally zombified by their own authorities? About Jet and his gang who simply surrendered to the mercy of fate after the failure with Katara and the Avatar? About the inhabitants of the villages of the Earth Kingdom who are robbed by the soldiers of the Earth Kingdom? Hell, everything we were shown about the Earth Kingdom indicated that it is a zombie state existing solely due to the inertia of the former, long-lost wealth. The only one who fits the description is Haru, but even he had to be brought in by Katara and Zuko has not met him. So where did Zuko get ideas that are so divergent from the reality shown in the show itself? The people of the Earth Kingdom were shown as downtrodden, despondent, weak and spineless. With rampant poverty, extreme corruption and an army that had degenerated into ordinary bandits. And a system consisting of chaos, corruption and desolation. What should the Fire Nation be afraid of here?
Fire Nation is clearly winning the war and is close to total victory anyway, and such a brutal measure simply makes no sense. No, seriously, Omashu and Ba Sing Se have fallen, the main forces of the Earth Kingdom army have been defeated, their top five generals have been neutralized, the Dai Li have defected to the Fire Nation, their king Kuei has simply withdrawn and gone on the run, the entire system of government has been destroyed. So who could possibly be putting up such significant resistance that Oza decides to burn the entire country to the ground? A country that, given the absorption of Ba Sing Se and Omashu by Fire Nation, no longer legally exists?
The notorious rebels didn't show themselves anywhere at all. In general, all the achievements in the fight against the Fire Nation were made by either the Gaang or the White Lotus. So who was this Operation Phoenix aimed at? Against Haru's village?
Interesting point. Although throughout almost the entire series Azula literally tries not to kill or at least maim her enemies. She gets absolutely nothing for this humanism except problems.
Azula did not intentionally kill Iroh, but only wounded him in the shoulder with fire.
Azula had excellent aim since childhood, so she wanted Iroh to get away with just a wound. Although she could have shot him in the head.
And this only allowed Zuko to master lightning redirection.
She spares the Kyoshi warriors and Appa. Although Aang's animal is a unique vehicle, the destruction of which would clearly deprive the Avatar of his exceptional mobility. And the Kyoshi warriors are ballast that must somehow be transferred to the Fire Nation guards, while still fearing that they might try to escape while they are being escorted to Fire Nation territory.
She spared Katara, which would later greatly ruin her life.
Aang was only able to survive because Azula spared Katara.
So that later he will be able to gut her father's soul.
She spared all these people. Which also gave her nothing but problems. Because as expected, they simply ran away.
She tried to redeem Zuko and even dragged him to the capital in a blaze of glory. And no. The whole scapegoat theory is crap because:
The Avatar is not Azula's mission at all, she doesn't need to report on his condition at all. The Avatar is Zuko's mission and he must answer for it. Accordingly, Azula has no reason to look for a scapegoat at all.
Zuko knew about the spiritual water, not Azula. Azula didn't know at all that people could be resurrected. And she couldn't have known. That's why she acted as a person who is confident that the main threat to her and her country has been eliminated.
Azula is obliged to lie to Ozai that Zuko killed the Avatar precisely because she promised Zuko that she would return their father's respect to him. The reports that Zuko only had a good fight with a water peasant are absolutely not enough for this.
In fact, Azula became Zuko's scapegoat because any appearance of a living Avatar in any case turns her into a liar who announced that the living Avatar is dead. She is the only witness to this death and she lied to Ozai.
The problem isn't even that with Katara, Mai and Ty Lee or a crowd of Dai Li could have helped her. The problem is that after the battle of Ba Sing Se, absolutely nothing stopped Azula from getting rid of both Zuko and Iroh. And that would have really solved her future problems. Not to mention the hundreds of Fire Nation soldiers who died because of it.
By the way, in this same episode Azula spares Iroh for the SECOND TIME. And who would have thought that nothing good would come out of it for her again.
Against this background, the fact that she spared her friends already seems insignificant. Because this Chekhov's gun simply did not have time to fire.
This is really very symbolic. Azula lost precisely because she was not a monster. If she were exactly as her haters portray her, she would have won!
And this raises the key question: what if, for her own good, Azula had to become a monster?
Before the computing era, ILM was the master of oil matte painting, making audiences believe that some of the sets in the original Star Wars and Indiana Jones trilogy were real when they weren’t. They were the work of geniuses like Chris Evans, Michael Pangrazio, Frank Ordaz, Harrison Ellenshaw and Ralph McQuarrie ! Forever thank you, to their handmade art and the work of their colleagues, that made us dream of impossible worlds and fantastic places across Earth and the Universe.
There are more background paintings on this article, featuring comments by the masters/artists themselves !
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I understand the whole "Toph could beat Ozai/the entire Fire Nation" jokes are just for the funnies and they're not hurting anyone but at some point it feels like Toph's character gets lost in this weird mythos we've built around her character. Sometimes looking at the fandom it feels like she's less of a character and more an idea(?) idk
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