✬ Welcome to my mythology blog! Here you will find my art and writing involving mythology, along with those I reblog! I hope you enjoy it! ✬ ღ Currently focused on Greek and Brazilian mythology, and a big fan of EPIC! ღ ( 24 y/o, PT-BR/EN)
Apparently today is World Olive Tree Day and that made me think about Odysseus and Penelope.
They deserved more time together sharing their carved bed.
But the way that way too many people who complain about how the ancient myths were created and shared by mysogynistic men in a patriarchal society and "that's why they villanize women (ex: Clytemnestra, Circe, etc...)", are the first ones to minimize the women in these myths and turn them into nothing but trophies forced to marry awful husbands, or even make up new things for them to suffer through, and end up completely disregarding their complexities and characters as a whole, making it so clear that the ancient epics they criticize so much did them more justice, really needs to be studied.
Hi hello, I have seen the “Odysseus can pose a threat to Penelope if he sees her being unfaithful” debate everywhere. But can you help me to elaborate how?
Hi, sure.
There are people who have expressed it way better than I ever could, but if I can be of any help I'm glad to. This is going to be quite long and hopefully not too messy.
Sources for the things I will say: Penelope's Renown: Meaning and Indeterminacy in the Odyssey and Penelope: from character to poetics.
The first thing to say is if you're asking me whether Odysseus poses a physical threat to Penelope (e.g. whether he wants to kill/be violent with her if she betrays him), then in my opinion there is no basis in the text to support this. This threat is never made explicit by him. Odysseus is repeatedly put in a position to think about a possible betrayal (especially when he talks to Agamemnon, but also for example when he hears the love story between Ares and Aphrodite while he is at the court of the Phaeacians) and he never expresses violent thoughts or intentions towards a hypothetical adulterous Penelope. And this is not an attempt to argue that "he's not like other boys" as I'm sometimes forced to read on tumblr, but it is simply based on the text we have. Moreover, Helen's fate seems to indicate to me that in the Homeric world forgiveness towards adulterous wives is at least conceived.
BUT just because there is no explicit threat of physical violence doesn't mean there isn't an underlying potential threat that all the characters perceive.
On several occasions the Odyssey tells the story of Agamemnon and how he was killed by his wife's lover with her complicity. This story is a great alarm bell for the characters, it is a possible plot twist that everyone must take into account. The comparison is immediate:
Agamemnon -> Odysseus
Clytemnestra -> Penelope
Orestes -> Telemachus
Obviously the fact that the stories can be compared does not mean that they can overlap. For example, Telemachus does not feel up to it nor does he seem so willing to take on the role of Orestes as avenger of his father's honor. If he did, he would not have the same reasons as Orestes to direct his revenge towards his mother. But be careful about this last point, because it is clear that Telemachus has some resentment towards his mother and that he perceives her as a threat. This is what Antinous tells him when they are in assembly:
"For I assure you that so long as she maintains this attitude that the gods have guided her to adopt, the Suitors will continue to eat you out of house and home. She may be winning a great name for herself, but at what expense to you!" (Odyssey book 2, Rieu)
So one consideration we can make is that the threat is not one-way. Penelope is herself a threat to Odysseus and Telemachus, and they are a threat to her.
Basically the characters' ignorance about Odysseus' fate (will he return or not?) in itself poses a threat.
In the absence of certainty, there is no right course of action for either Telemachus or Penelope. For Telemachus because:
1) If he faced the suitors alone it would be a suicide mission.
2) He perceives the threat that his mother represents as long as she stays in the house, but can he throw her out if his father is about to come home? No. (Also it seems to me that he is unhappy with the idea of throwing her out anyway).
For Penelope because:
1) by postponing the wedding she is endangering her son's life.
2) if Odysseus is alive she is endangering him and she is also endangering herself by remarrying.
The threat exists because none of the three has all the information, none of the three already knows how the others will act. For Penelope the decision to remarry is the best if Odysseus is dead, but it is objectively wrong if he is alive.
So this is the potential threat, but we can't ignore the fact that in the end things go very differently for the ithacan family than for the house of Atreus. The Odyssey proposes the theme of the House of Atreus several times, only to then distance itself from it and propose an alternative. And since the question was specifically about how Odysseus reacts to Penelope's possible infidelity, I think it's right to focus on his actual behaviors as well, not just potential ones.
An important thing to keep in mind is: the rapresentation of Penelope as the perfect little wife who would never cheat on her husband is very imprecise. Penelope is a person whose thoughts are very difficult to know, and it is very difficult to predict her moves. There is not a single character that can explain with definitive and authoritative voice why she is doing what she is doing. This is continually suggested to us in the text. I will try to give an example that I think is very eloquent. Let's take the scene in which she appears for the first time before Odysseus (still in disguise): she tells the suitors that the time has come for her to get married and narrates that Odysseus had told her that she could/should remarry as soon as Telemachus got old enough. So she convinces the suitors to give her the classic wedding gifts. And then
The noble, patient Odysseus was delighted at her words, because she was extorting gifts from her suitors and bewitching them by her persuasive words, while all the time her heart was set on something quite different (Odyssey book 18, Rieu)
So he "knows" that she is making fun of them. But let's think about this for a moment. There are two possibilities: 1) Penelope did not lie about the story 2) Penelope did lie about the story.
If Penelope told the truth then it is not clear why Odysseus should rejoice. How can he know that her heart is set on something different? Is he rejoicing just because she is getting gifts? Or is it because of a sort of pride in the fact that she is so desired by other men (her value as a woman rises)? This second possibility does not seem to be suggested by the text in Odysseus' reaction, but I point out that this interpretation seems to be very close to Athena's plan when she arouses in Penelope the desire to be seen by the suitors. Athena seems to want Penelope to prove herself capable of bringing value to the home and value in the Homeric poems is measured in physical objects.
Or Penelope lied. If Penelope lied why should Odysseus rejoice? Penelope's lie could just be a little excuse to justify the long wait that now is finally over. It could be, in Odysseus' eyes, overwhelming evidence that she actually wants to remarry. Otherwise she would have invented something else.
Here my imaginary interlocutor brings up the concept of homophrosyne. Those two have the same mind and therefore must understand everything about each other, right? Personally, it seems to me that this implies taking the concept a bit too far, and above all it is not really supported by what happens in the text (why should Odysseus fall into the final trap of the bed if Penelope's mind has no secrets for him anyway?). Homophrosyne means that they have the same mind, yes, but in the sense that they are both difficult to read, very distrustful, cautious, liars and both always have more than one purpose.
The point is that Odysseus (and we even less than him in this case) cannot know what Penelope's true intentions are. He can know if she is lying and he can imagine what her feelings are (also because he has been reassured by Athena about them), but he cannot really know them. How can you easily know the heart of a person who always lies?
And be careful because the bow contest is the same thing, if not "worse": how does Odysseus know that she is not calling the contest because she has actually realized that it is better to remarry? After all, that is what her words suggest. Odysseus tells her that having the bow contest is a great idea (and in fact it is because he will have access to a weapon). Can he suspect that she has recognized him and is offering him help? In my opinion, yes, but it would still be a suspicion.
I've finished setting the scene, now I'm finally getting to the point:
What I find important to answer your question is not so much racking our brains to figure out how much Odysseus knew (or how much Penelope knew). I think it's important to understand how Odysseus behaves in his position of ignorance about Penelope's intentions. In my opinion, when Odysseus sees Penelope and then tests her, he is not particularly alarmed by the idea that Penelope might decide that she can no longer postpone marriage. When they talk to each other he tests her heart more than her intentions. He knows she is in a difficult situation and is very happy with how she has handled it up to that point. He is also reassured by the way she remembers him, by the strength with which she desires him. He knows she is doubting but he experiences her doubts as a challenge, because he wants to win her back, to prove to her that her feelings are not misplaced, that he is still worthy of her love as he was twenty years before. So let it be clear that Odysseus wants to test her and be tested by her.
As I already said Odysseus can't be sure of her true intentions and he knows that. That's why he is still in disguise. But the fact that they both lie to each other and don't trust each other right away is what will bring them closer again in the end. It's what they share.
So to answer your question: Odysseus and Penelope pose a serious threat to each other: they don't know how the other will act and must behave cautiously because of this. And it is precisely this that makes it even more incredible that in the end, without their knowing it, their minds are so in sync.
Homer: Are you aware that many Iliad characters are first time fathers? That all of them in one way or another misses a big chunk of their children’s life or never gets to see it at all?
Also Homer: leaves and never elaborates
A doodle for random parenting shiz basically. Order from left to right, top to bottom:
-Menelaus carrying a sleepy Hermione. @hermesmoly I was drawing this when the request came lolol
-Achilles and baby Neo. I don’t know if it’s a thing in other places but hanging on father’s leg and then let him moves it back and forth like an impromptu swing is quite a favorite pastime activity here.
-Odysseus and baby Telemachus who was trying to be a helicopter
-Hector and baby Astyanax when he was born.
-Probably Agamemnon and his three daughters, but I have no official designs. He tried to scold them and was failing. Tbh I feel like Agamemnon would be the type to cosplay buff Bubble from Powerpuff girls along with his daughters. I know he’s not that great but me delulu.
-Patroclus and Neoptolemus. Yes Patroclus contributed in raising him as well, the kid had 2 dads. Fight me.
This is a personal rant about how I, as a Greek and mythology lover, view these modern retellings and how they came out more as a disappointment.
Here are some examples of forced labelling from the book sites like Bookreads:
Do you see a pattern? Is not only they are telling the audience rather than showing how "feminist" are these retellings but also..
Man vs woman
According to the retellings all ancient Greek men are bad, sexist, misogynists, worthless, abusers and women are girlboss ✨. But it's obvious that humans regardless of gender are complex beings.
But when you read the Original epics you realise that women have as much importance in the story as men. But not in the way you are used to...
The women aren't afraid to speak their mind, they have agency, they are a driving force the admire, but it's not with shields, armor or physical strength. They are also showing it with kindness, empathy, cunning but also with anger, sorrow, vengeance.
Penelope, Electra, Antigone, Ariadne, Andromache, Helen, Cassandra etc. ARE strong women! They don't have to go to battle to prove it!
BUT that also doesn't mean we should glorify the women who are abusers and do wrong things!
Clytemnestra for example, exiled Orestes, had her daughter Electra a slave, showed proudly her Trojan women (also slaves) and killed Cassandra an innocent woman.. Do i understand how and why she acted? Yes 💯. Does this justifies her actions ? Of course no.
Medea, killed her brother and her children, and also poisoned Jason's next wife and her father because "she wanted to make him suffer like her". Do i understand why she did it? Yes. Does it justify to have everyone suffer because of one man? No.
Hera, punished several women and men alike because she couldn't do it on Zeus (because he is the king and stronger). Is cheating bad? Yes. Does it justify her to punish someone who was obviously a victim or was powerless against a god? No.
The retellings:
fail to do complex characters.
fail to let the audience come to their own conclusions who's right, wrong or neutral.
They fail to make daring characters without be labelled on a modern stereotype.
Fail to understand the norms of ancient Greece and how they shaped these stories.
Fail to realise that men and women are more complex than modern stereotypes.
I am not against retellings but do better! Making a great retelling respectful to the source and having complex characters with quality reading would be deeply appreciated.
And to the readers to not rely on retellings as "faithful resources".
You already know I ran to my keyboard like I was being chased by the Erinyes when I saw this absolute brainrot of a post.
First of all, “classicist” my ass. If you are out here ignoring context, cherry-picking translations, and casually accusing Odysseus of cheating based on vibes rather than textual evidence, then you are a classicist the way my left sandal is a philosopher.
Second of all, I’ve talked about this before. Loudly. Repeatedly. Aggressively. And yet people like this keep crawling out of the academic slime pit thinking that quoting “ceased to please” in English means they’ve uncovered some buried truth the rest of us are too dumb to see. Spoiler alert: they have not
1. Odysseus Having Sex With His Prizes In The Iliad?
WHERE. Is. The. Evidence.
There is zero indication Odysseus ever slept with his war prizes, let alone that he had a “young pretty” one Agamemnon wanted. In Book 1 of the Iliad, Agamemnon threatens to take Odysseus’ “geras” (prize), but it’s a bluff, a tactical flex to reassert dominance after losing Chryseis. Nowhere does it say she’s young, pretty, or even exist beyond the threat. It’s entirely plausible Agamemnon’s yap is based on Odysseus being seen as non-threatening. A safe choice to insult. You think he’s marching into Achilles’ tent right away? No, he’s poking at the guy who might let him.
And also, let’s not forget that later tradition gives Odysseus Hekuba as a spoil. Hekuba. An elderly woman. So your lil’ theory about him going for nubile war prizes? Wrong. Not everyone was out here chasing teenage concubines.
2. Calypso And “Consent” (Or The Myth Of It).
I have ranted about this:
This person said “I’ve read it in Greek.”
Cool. So have I. And the Greek is not on your side, boo.
3. Circe Was Also SA.
The only reason this one's debated is because people keep squinting at the text and thinking “well, they seemed okay after.” Stockholm Syndrome isn’t consent, babes. Circe turns his men into pigs. She is a witch. She uses potions. She beds him the first night as part of a power transaction. It IS complicated, but it is NOT romantic. And what mortal can say no to a goddess who just turned his bros into livestock?
I translated the speech of Hermes myself:
πῇ δὴ αὖτ᾽, ὦ δύστηνε, δι᾽ ἄκριας ἔρχεαι οἶος,
χώρου ἄιδρις ἐών; ἕταροι δέ τοι οἵδ᾽ ἐνὶ Κίρκης
ἔρχαται ὥς τε σύες πυκινοὺς κευθμῶνας ἔχοντες.
ἦ τοὺς λυσόμενος δεῦρ᾽ ἔρχεαι; οὐδέ σέ φημι
αὐτὸν νοστήσειν, μενέεις δὲ σύ γ᾽, ἔνθα περ ἄλλοι.
ἀλλ᾽ ἄγε δή σε κακῶν ἐκλύσομαι ἠδὲ σαώσω.
τῆ, τόδε φάρμακον ἐσθλὸν ἔχων ἐς δώματα Κίρκης
ἔρχευ, ὅ κέν τοι κρατὸς ἀλάλκῃσιν κακὸν ἦμαρ.
πάντα δέ τοι ἐρέω ὀλοφώια δήνεα Κίρκης.
τεύξει τοι κυκεῶ, βαλέει δ᾽ ἐν φάρμακα σίτῳ.
ἀλλ᾽ οὐδ᾽ ὣς θέλξαι σε δυνήσεται: οὐ γὰρ ἐάσει
φάρμακον ἐσθλόν, ὅ τοι δώσω, ἐρέω δὲ ἕκαστα.
ὁππότε κεν Κίρκη σ᾽ ἐλάσῃ περιμήκεϊ ῥάβδῳ,
δὴ τότε σὺ ξίφος ὀξὺ ἐρυσσάμενος παρὰ μηροῦ
Κίρκῃ ἐπαῖξαι, ὥς τε κτάμεναι μενεαίνων.
ἡ δέ σ᾽ ὑποδείσασα κελήσεται εὐνηθῆναι:
ἔνθα σὺ μηκέτ᾽ ἔπειτ᾽ ἀπανήνασθαι θεοῦ εὐνήν,
ὄφρα κέ τοι λύσῃ θ᾽ ἑτάρους αὐτόν τε κομίσσῃ:
ἀλλὰ κέλεσθαί μιν μακάρων μέγαν ὅρκον ὀμόσσαι,
μή τί τοι αὐτῷ πῆμα κακὸν βουλευσέμεν ἄλλο,
μή σ᾽ ἀπογυμνωθέντα κακὸν καὶ ἀνήνορα θήῃ.
"Where now, unfortunate one, are you wandering alone through the hills, without knowledge of the land? Your companions are there in Circe’s halls, confined like swine in crowded pens. Have you come here to free them? I do not think you yourself will return home; rather, you will stay here, just like the others. But come, I will save you from these troubles and protect you. Take this good herb and go to Circe’s halls—it will guard your head from the evil day. And I will tell you all of Circe’s deadly tricks. She will prepare a potion for you and mix drugs into the food. But even so, she will not be able to bewitch you, for this good herb that I give you will prevent it. Now listen closely: when Circe strikes you with her long wand, then draw your sharp sword from beside your thigh and rush at her as if you intend to kill her. She, terrified, will urge you to lie with her. At that moment, do not refuse the goddess’s bed, so that she may release your companions and take care of you. But make her swear a great oath by the blessed gods that she will not plot any other evil against you, lest she strip you bare and render you weak and unmanned."
ἡ δέ σ᾽ ὑποδείσασα > "She, being frightened …"
In ὑποδείσασα, the participle is feminine singular, agreeing with Κίρκη, and still carries that base meaning of shrinking back. However, depending on context, one might stretch it to mean something like:
"flinching"
"recoiling"
"shrinking back"
"hesitating"
"drawing back in surprise"
She is not necessarily cowering or submitting in the way a powerless person would but rather reacting with alarm, possibly in shock or surprise. The gods and goddesses had immense power, so their "fear" would not look like human cowering. It is more about a momentary acknowledgment of danger. Her reaction is more about the shock of Odysseus not playing by the usual rules (as a guest, a mortal, or a person who is absolutely not supposed to be a threat to her) and being forced to confront his aggression directly. Hermes even says Circe will demand to sleep with him:
Odysseus later also goes to the palace of Circe “with a heavy heart” right after being told by Hermes he has to bang her, sooo...
Oh, and while we’re at it?
NOTHING—I repeat—NOTHING in the actual Greek Odyssey says that Odysseus and Circe slept together more than once. No line. No implication. No “oh but they were together for a year so obviously—”
No.
So she swears an oath. He eats. Then we get ONE. BED. SCENE.
That’s it. That’s the whole sex.
We don’t get a montage. We don’t get “many nights passed in delight.” We don’t even get a participial phrase implying repetition. Just one time. After that? They feast. He stays. She gives him advice, he chills, the men are healed. But sex is not mentioned again. Not even alluded to. He’s not crying, sure, but he’s not exactly lusting either.
Although my GOAT Chapman does have an amazing take on this:
^ My own old rant on what Chapman said about this scene!
So...why were they there for a year, besides what Chapman claims?
Because Circe was helpful as hell.
Girl had knowledge. Girl told them how to survive Scylla and Charybdis and gave detailed sea maps before Google Maps existed. They didn’t stay because Odysseus was bewitched by the ✨thighs✨. They stayed because he was recovering and she was prepping them for round two of Hell Voyage.
4. “I’ve read the Greek” Is Not a Personality Trait!
Congrats on reading a language most of us study out of sheer obsession and spite. That doesn’t give you a free pass to twist the meaning of compulsion, ignore centuries of scholarship, or act like everyone else is a moron for acknowledging sexual violence in antiquity. You are not revolutionary. You are just loud and wrong.
Fidelity in Odyssey isn’t about who Odysseus slept with, it’s about who he stayed loyal to. And he stayed loyal to home. His oikos. And Penelope is the representation of his oikos.
germansingergirl
blakekathryn
gummygunk
gamechangershow
