I asked Neil Gaiman, “how it is possible for them to have talked for millions of years” (Crowley, S2, Ep6), and Neil said “because there was lots of angel time before Earth time started.” THUS:
“They’ll be shutting this all down in 6,000 years" either refers only to the Earth (perhaps Azi misunderstood the "word from upstairs", i.e., it didn't refer to the whole universe) OR it's simply "angel time years" which can mean anything.
During that “lots of angel time” (i.e. what Crowley means by “millions of years”), AFTER that first meeting, and BEFORE the Earth’s creation, there is a very, very long time for Aziraphale and Crowley to get to know each other.
This is confirmed by the following ask/reply from August 23, 2023:
NEXT, the Great War/Rebellion happened. In Series 1, Gabriel says, “There was war in Heaven long before the Earth was created. Crowley and the others were cast out.”
How long? Who knows? Then the Earth's creation was finally completed, and its 6,000-year timeline started ticking. And when they meet again on the Wall, Aziraphale has to ask for his friend’s new demon name.
Note: in the bandstand scene, when Crowley says, “How long have we been friends? 6,000 years.” He means, how long have you and I-As-the-Demon-Crowley, not the Angel you knew who I no longer identify with been friends. This is also pointed out in the Job minisode, when Aziraphale firmly states that he knows “the angel you were”, and Crowley firmly denies he’s the same person (“the angel you knew is not me”).
But of course, we all know that some essence of Angel Crowley remains, because of the way he is still “a good person” at heart, right? Right. He can try to deny it, but it’s still there, and Aziraphale knows that. This is why they can stay friends, and why they can love each other.
"Great! Do a little miracle, wiggle your fingers about, Nina falls for Maggie, problem solved."
"Miracles don't work like that."
I have always wondered about this exchange. Why is Aziraphale the only one who knows that miracles don't work like that? Because Crowley doesn't know or he wouldn't have suggested it, and the archangels obviously don't know either or it wouldn't have even gotten to the point of them sending someone to verify the miracle.
I don't know, it just seems odd and I can't think of an explanation that makes sense.
I love the "Aziraphale is just bullshitting, he doesn't know either" theory. Angels love to pretend that they know stuff!
But also, consider this:
Aziraphale seems to be the only angel we know who has any knowledge about human love (or human reproduction, for that matter).
Aziraphale could sense Adam's love of Tadfield, so he might have a special affinity for love, like Crowley's affinity for time.
They generally do miracles by imagining the desired state of the world and willing it into existence.
Therefore, if Aziraphale, the most love-aware angel, does not believe that love can be miracled into existence, then love cannot be miracled into existence -- because Aziraphale cannot imagine it, and nobody else has enough of a clue to even try.
What machinations did Aziraphale do to make it an Independent Embassy.
What does he mean.
Demons can't come in but nor do angels in S2.
They ask if they can come in.
Az knows, insists it's a safe space. Why? He wants to believe he can protect Crowley and Jim and everyone.
He's trying SO HARD to make it a perfect evening, for everyone to have a great time.
He walks away from Crowley and Nina in a hurry, looking worried, but with a plan.
The plan is apparently to get EVERYONE into his bookshop. By any means. Bribery. Temptations.
He knows Shax is on his tail, he kinda messed up in the car. But what is his plan? To keep everyone safe for the evening? In case Shax shows up? And what then?
What machinations did Aziraphale do to make it an Independent Embassy.
What a good question!
It must have started back in the 17th century, when he bought the land with his own money. Then he had the bookshop built, again using money he earned himself, and barely any miracles (according to Neil Gaiman -- one and two). So the bookshop is completely his own, fair and square. By design. And that's interesting in itself, but something changed a few years ago...
While he was an agent of Heaven, the bookshop was an embassy of Heaven. When he stopped working for Heaven, did it become Aziraphale's personal "embassy"?
Here is a lovely meta piece by @indigovigilance that puts some thought into that idea:
Credit to @flameraven for scripts
Read on Ao3 at: Sovereignty, Citizenship, and the Bookshop (1702 words) by indigovigilance
Summary:
The
As for "what then"... Maybe demonic attacks work on fairy tale logic, where you just have to hold out until dawn, and then they have to leave? Or maybe he expected Shax to give up easily, not knowing how desperate Beelzebub was to find their angel?
I have been fiddling with a few different posts that are going to take a while longer still to complete. In the meantime I decided to do a little bit of a Good Omens Tarot visual analysis.
*Disclaimer* I am not a tarot expert, I am using visuals simply to equate these scenes to the Rider-Waite Tarot deck. Most of the limited meaning and analysis have been pulled from various tarot websites.
I hope you enjoy looking through these! They are not super deep or intensive but were very fun to put together :) They are ordered first by Major Arcana, then Minor Arcana, and finally Court Cards.
THE FOOL
The Fool represents the willingness to take risks, being inexperienced, improvisation and beginners luck. Aziraphale and the 1941 magic debacle are very fitting for the fool card. He doesn't know he's just endangered Crowley in front of Hell, doesn't know about the miracle blocker, and what they are about to face. Teetering dangerously close to the edge of the cliff. Yet, they've just somehow successfully escaped the stage unscathed.
----
THE MAGICIAN
The Magician represents one's potential, and capability to harness one's potential, especially in a situation where transformation is needed. It brings to mind the change that's needed in Heaven, the work Aziraphale needs to do to fix a broken system.
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THE EMPEROR
The Emperor sits on a throne, flanked by dual rams heads. This card represents leadership, power, authority, courage, and intelligence. The Emperor is considered to be someone who is very powerful. Crowley's powers and past angelic identity are still somewhat of a mystery to us, and we have good reason to believe he was indeed a powerful figure. Could this be foreshadowing as well?
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THE LOVERS
While The Lovers in modern decks often has a romantic reading, traditionally this card represented a crossroads in a relationship. Choices between life paths, and commitment. Aziraphale and Crowley choosing their side at the end of season one reflects this crossroads and decision very well.
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THE CHARIOT
The Chariot represents overcoming conflict and moving forward, but the charioteer is warned to be wary of the way ahead. Crowley rushing back to Aziraphale after the Book of Life threat is ready to move past their earlier conflict and move forward. But danger might lie ahead.
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THE HERMIT
The Hermit represents the ability to recognize a 'teacher in a humble disguise', wisdom and enlightenment. Though it takes Aziraphale millenia, I think he eventually does recognize Crowley is a teacher or a guide in disguise for him, helping him sort through the abyss of human morality.
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THE WHEEL OF (MIS)FORTUNE
The Wheel of Fortune card reminds us that life is ever changing and moving, we cannot stand on top of the wheel indefinitely, where we think we finally may see and understand things clearly, it will always turn. Looking at the Good Omens Wheel of Misfortune, it has interesting items like "going abroad" - a nod to season 3 possibly being set at least somewhat in New York?
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THE TOWER
The Tower represents disaster, distress, and upheaval. There is an unforeseen catastrophe that will need to be weathered. I believe Aziraphale's emotional journey in the Job minisode exemplifies this perfectly. His realization that he has reached a turning point in his beliefs, his willingness to fall to save Jobs children and defy the Almighty... The path going forward will be difficult.
I also wonder sometimes about not visual but conceptual tarot references in the show. Season 1 ends with The World, as a proper journey through the Major Arcana -- but in the context of the entire story the scene could also work as Lovers. What about season 2?
Also can we give a round of applause to delivery dude? His expression upon reading the note is flawless, his relationship with Maud is lovely, his laid back behavior and passion for delivery is amazing. Love him
Well, yes, he's a lovable guy, but also... Are we meant to admire his passion for delivery? Or are his priorities a bit unbalanced? He did help start the apocalypse, after all...
Anyway ours is not to reason why. Ours is to deliver packages.
On the bright side, at least he left Maud relaxing in bed on a lazy Saturday morning, and not in childbirth.
When the hellhound entered anathema’s cottage “and a little bit more of hell burned away” because of the horseshoe. Uhhh did the same happen when crowley entered that church to save aziraphale
I've been thinking, I wonder if the reason Crowley didn't really react to Michael threatening Aziraphale with erasing him from the book of life is because he knows it's BS. And he knows this because he knows about time and causality. And he knows that if you were to erase someone from time and space it would wreak havoc with reality. Erase Aziraphale and the humans don't get the sword for starters, imagine the rippling repercussions from just that. But what about every blessing he has ever performed? Or every meal he has ever eaten, or buying the bookshop, or knowing Crowley, or any decision he has ever made? Those actions had ripple effects and if he no longer existed and had never existed, all those ripples wouldn't have happened either and I can't imagine that wouldn't make a huge mess that even God wouldn't want to sort out. (and if there is a multiverse he would also have to be removed from every possible universe as well) I'm no scientist but I'm pretty sure you can't remove the cause in cause and effect. (you can't have war without War... sorry not sorry 😏)
Now I think someone could be erased from the Book but I think that just kills them, and only God can write/or erase it. The other alternative is that it doesn't actually erase the person, just the memory of that person so no one would remember they existed without completely wrecking reality. Although that could still cause problems....or maybe (probably) it's not that serious 😅
Here are some thoughts by @indigovigilance on how erasing someone might work without messing up reality too much, something like your other alternative:
Acknowledging that what we know so far about the Book of Life from various characters is highly suspect, I'm going to posit to you that Beel
I think Crowley did look concerned when he hurried back to the bookshop after Beelzebub mentioned the Book of Life, although he was skeptical about "extreme sanctions".
(I'm not quite sure what he could have done about Michael's threats, though -- fight a bunch of archangels? Our heroes seemed a bit outnumbered at the time.)
On the list of things NO ONE had asked Neil Gaiman:
The dialogue from the TV show that the Young family are watching in Episode 3, before Adam heads off for an early night.
I put the script together with the scene! You can hear the phrases very well if you know what they’re saying. Since Neil posted this I have been unable not to listen to the TV conversation.
I think it was largely improvised, rather than planned in detail -- Crowley rushed in when Sitis was just about to curse God, and he was taking cues from Aziraphale the whole time.
Here's a really nice post about their performance as an example of improv theatre:
Brought over from a post I made on reddit
On a recent rewatch, I realized what a beautiful example of the "Yes, and…" improv technique the
we really need to be able to separate "demon as species" and "demon as political affiliation" in good omens, because that is at the core of why so many people (including the characters in the show, especially aziraphale) are reluctant to acknowledge crowley as a true demon.
demon means BOTH "an angel who has fallen from heaven, has an animal aspect, and is weak to holy water and resistant to hellfire" and "an employee of hell who is loyal to satan." there is one word for both of these concepts. crowley fits one, but not the other. it's why he's simultaneously a "former demon" by his own words and also incredibly resistant to the idea that he is anything else.
not working for hell doesn't mean he's not really a demon. it doesn't mean he's in any better standing with god. it doesn't mean his fall wasn't something that changed him deeply, both on a physical level and as a person. it means he is struggling to find the vocabulary to define himself, because the system is not built for someone like him. it is impossible, in the minds of every character in the show except for crowley, to be a demon without being one of "the bad guys." it's impossible to have fallen without joining team hell.
the same is also true of angels. michael refers to aziraphale as a "former angel" in the same episode that crowley refers to himself as a "former demon." I don't think aziraphale would ever use that language for himself--he's very attached to his identity as an angel, and the closest he ever gets to calling himself anything else is when he's so upset at the end of the job minisode--but just as there's no word for a demon who is not associated with hell, there's no word for an angel who has been alienated from heaven.
but these identities still mean something for both crowley and aziraphale. a huge part of crowley’s personality and his moral code is his resistance to authority and his disdain for rules and predestination. likewise, a huge part of aziraphale’s personal code is still his allegiance to some sort of “greater good,” whether that be god or just a nebulous concept of a heaven that doesn’t exist.
and in addition to the philosophical divide, there are real tangible differences between the angel crowley used to be and the demon he is now. the distinction between “angel” and “demon” is not important in that it dictates whether a celestial being can be Good or Bad, but it is important in how it functions as a descriptor of the person’s prior life experiences, their relationship with god, and their physical characteristics.
This is fascinating and also terrifying, because it underlines how rigidly authoritarian the whole system is. That lack of distinction between the possible definitions of demon isn't just an oversight or a lack of understanding from Aziraphale and others - it's built in by design, which is so much worse.
After all, demons aren't actually a different species; they're fallen angels. The only way to become a demon is to be an angel cast out of Heaven. Demonhood is a sentence, a punishment for disobedience so of course it's a rigid package deal with no room for demons to define themselves in their own terms - prisoners don't design their own cells, after all.
(Not the angels really get to do that either, of course. That's the thing about authoritarian systems - when it comes down to it, no-one's free, not even the ones on the "right" side.)
There isn't a proper word for how Crowley tries to live - former demon, retired demon, they don't quite fit - because the system doesn't allow for anyone to be like that. There isn't yet a word for an independent demon or angel who is free to define themselves, because no-one gets to do that.
Before the War in Heaven there probably wasn't a word for "demon" because there weren't any of them either. It was the War, and the punishment of the losers, that required a word for the fallen angels and a definition of what that meant. It'll likely take perhaps not a war, but a similarly seismic shift to allow celestial beings who are free from both Heaven and Hell to exist and be named.
That lack of distinction between the possible definitions of demon isn't just an oversight or a lack of understanding from Aziraphale and others - it's built in by design, which is so much worse.
I agree, the conflation of terms seems very deliberate. It's a type of thought control through language that is easy to notice when it's emphasized like in 1984, but easy to miss when the world seems relatively normal at first glance.
And the same goes for the lack of one accepted term for all of them, which is enforced by the dichotomy. Angel/demon, white/black, Upstairs/Downstairs, good/evil, ethereal/occult...
How attached is Aziraphale to his identity as an angel? And if he is attached to it, what sense of "angel" does he have in mind?
Without a body? That's ridiculous.
It is?
Obviously. What are you going to do? You can't possess them.
Demons can.
You're not a demon. You're an angel.
I have a similar feeling about the demon thing in general, although what Crowley did or didn't do is still a bit mysterious.
While we're on this topic, here's a nice little etymology:
felon (n.)
c. 1300, "one who deceives or commits treason; one who is wicked or evil; evil-doer," used of Lucifer and Herod, from Old French felon "evil-doer, scoundrel, traitor, rebel, oath-breaker, the Devil" (9c.)
And these thoughts always make me wonder about the angel/demon "species" distinction...
I love the Job minisode somehow because Azi behaves like Azi. He knows people, he knows that killing children is terrible, he knows Crowley and trusts him. And I yeah I am bothered by Azi's kinda regress in the Edinburgh minisode, but now not about it. The second detail that bothers me. Azi lied to archangels and he thinks he is a fallen angel now. Why?
Aziraphale has already lied in Eden to GOD HERSELF. I mean HE LIED TO ALMIGHTY, who knows, you know, everything. And who can punish. But Azi lied to her without hesitation and without any remorse later. He must know that nothing will happen to him. So why is he so upset?
Yes, this is the explanation that feels right to me.
By saying "you have my word as an angel", Aziraphale offered being an angel as the guarantee that he was telling the truth. And he was lying. In a world where magic is real, it makes sense to think that such a promise could have automatic consequences. After all, no one seems to know how it all actually works, angels included.
Oaths used to be serious business for humans, back when the accepted idea of how the world works was more magical:
By popular request, today we’re going to talk about oaths. Oaths appear a lot in fantasy fiction – and even in historical fiction – and they
Or maybe he just hoped to fall straight into Crowley's sweet demonic lifestyle, which apparently consists of saving kids, stealing food and wine from human basements, and generally doing what you want ;)
Maybe obvious, but it just hit me that Aziraphale making Jimbriel cocoa that first time is a test. Before, Gabriel would never "sully the temple of [his] body with gross matter." Now he's delighted! Which helps convince Aziraphale that it's not all some sort of malevolent ruse.
I like this theory. But now we have to revisit the Muriel cuppertea scene. That is clearly not a test. Is he tempting them? Or just training them to blend in?
Playing along with Muriel's cover story, taking on the role of a friendly citizen graciously hosting a human police officer. It's polite to offer your guests a cup of tea, isn't it?
Giving them both something to do that doesn't involve Muriel wandering around the bookshop.
Experimenting with introducing angels to human experiences. After all, how can angels be good to humanity if they don't have the faintest clue what life as a human is like, and their own existence is devoid of things like tea and love?
As in the archangel Michael, as in the smartest ones in the room when Aziraphale's not in the room, as in clever ambitious Michael who wants to be Supreme Archangel but somehow the Metatron finds the idea ridiculous when Aziraphale suggests it.
What is their deal, exactly?
In season one they seemed like a bit of an apple polisher, sneaking around and snitching on Aziraphale. But the tone they took when speaking to him was almost kind, in a patronizing sort of way.
"We'll be most understanding when you fail." They weren't mocking him; they just believed whole heartedly in the Great Plan and assumed that he was wasting his time for a good cause.
"Aziraphale, it's time to choose sides." Knowing her back channel to hell, I'm tempted to think this was Michael-ese for "I get it, demons are hot af, but let's not get crazy here."
Also Michael didn't stick around to watch "Aziraphale" step into the hellfire. I'm sure they could have said "Don't start without me" if they'd wanted to see the show, but they didn't. We didn't see them in heaven at all during that entire sequence. Weak stomach, guilty conscience, or am I overthinking?
I feel very strongly that Michael's ambition was an underutilized device in season two. They showed it to us but then didn't do anything with it. They did show us Michael giving Uriel the side eye when they called Aziraphale "the traitor." And then another, shorter glance when they said "the demon." What was that about? It wasn't exactly a controversial opinion.
Michael is going to hate that Aziraphale is the Supreme Archangel. Aziraphale is going to hate being the Supreme Archangel. I sense common ground in season three.
Anyway, that's it. No solid theories, just some random thoughts. And a gif of Dagon being a total simp because it's hot.
I'm like 90% certain that Michael's ambitions in S2 is a Chekhov Gun to them being the one to hate The Metatron's choice the most. And what will it bring to us? We'll wait and see....
It's important to remember that among TV!series angel it were Michael, Uriel, Gabriel and Sandalphone who were brought from the ideas of never-happened sequel. Muriel and Saraqael were created later, for S2 (and some of Saraqael's lines initially belonged to Sandalphone). It doesn't mean these two won't be important in S3 - but I suspect that some of characters who were intended to be a part of a sequel from the earliest stages should be at least as much important in an implementation of that sequel as characters who were created much later.
Yes, Mr Metatron, what's wrong with Michael? Too opinionated? Too fond of little chats with Hell? Just... not Aziraphale?
And isn't it funny how Michael always seems to be in contact with somebody from Hell? First Ligur, then Beelzebub, then Dagon -- it's like they have the whole corporate chart in their contacts list. Is that a secretly Heaven-assigned role for efficient cooperation, or Michael's own initiative?
No, I'm I'm telling you, you can't trust him. Of course you can trust me. I'm an angel.
You will, I am sure you'll be glad to learn, remain an angel. Although, as a kindness, your memory of your time as Gabriel will be erased. You will be demoted to junior recording angel, 38th class.
Interesting choice of words here. Not "your memory of your time as Archangel" or "your memory of your past existence", but "your memory of your time as Gabriel".
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