It's like..... the law of nature or something

al/25/female/italian more info in my main @feminariden i write dumb meta once in a while bc Kyle lives rent free in my brain since 2018 sorry for typos!

[north-park]

I saw a kid with two little Kenny and Cartman plushies okey

[skelestonkss]

humble folks without temptation

[north-park]

My dad and i just had a "and it's gone" moment about our money at the bank

[apple-pretzelchan]

this special was the first sp related thing I watched back in September since 2010 and as a shipper from back then it felt like out of body experience.

[buttersdoodles]

Movie Night!

[north-park]

Just seen a lot of by/ler shippers are also stuglies so i'm switching to kyman forever

[mantequillamcwhoremick]

In Defense of Butters in "Sora not Sorry"

(as promised)

Watching the trailer for Sora not Sorry (s28) & hearing the word "revenge porn" uttered, did make me expect a return of "Wieners Out"-Butters (s20); not at all unlikely considering his more assertive characterization as of lately in the show. This streak of him is likely influenced & induced by several factors, including his relationship with Cartman and generally being fed-up with being pushed around as stated in episodes like "The Ungroundable" (s12) or "A Boy and a Priest" (s22). However, I'd argue that Butters' actions in this episode weren't rooted in misogyny.

Oxford Dictionary: Misogyny "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women."

Were his actions wrong? Certainly. Was he acting like a bully? Yes. Should he not have used AI (OpenAI's Sora, specifically) to generate videos in the first place? Obviously, and I hope I don't have to get into the evidence there is regarding the environmental impact of GenAI and other GenAI-related risks in order to elaborate on this (read this article's section 1.4.1 if you'd like to know exactly). Were his actions, however, misogynistic? Debatable.

Had it been actual "revenge porn" (Oxford dictionary definition: "revealing or sexually explicit images or videos of a person posted on the internet, typically by a former sexual partner, without the consent of the subject and in order to cause them distress or embarrassment.") this would definitely have been the case. That is to say, had he a) exposed nudes of Red she had sent him in confidence (thank god this wasn't the case considering they're kids but also this is South Park so I wouldn't have been surprised), or b) generated sexually explicit content of her, then these would have been actual revenge porn and it definitely would've been a misogynistic attack. It would've been Butters abusing his male privilege in order to prey on ideals rooted in societal discrimination of women. However, the videos he generated were of a toilet humor nature; Red getting peed in the face, farting, eating shit, throwing up tampons, etc. While still humiliating and disgusting, it doesn't qualify for the definition of "revenge porn". Perhaps the Santa peeing in her face one is on thin ice, I admit. Still there are other points which make me believe even this wasn't misogyny, which I'll discuss now.

Had his actions been rooted in misogyny, Butters would have chalked up Red's wrongdoings to the fact that she is a girl. This he did in his "Wiener's Out"-arc in season 20; he went after women as a group after Charlotte broke up with him, and generalized their behavior as being inherent to girls;

"So then it's true! You're all snakes in the grass! Every [slams the keyboard] last one of you!" (Butters to Charlotte in "Wieners Out", s20 ep4)

There are many more instances in this episode I could quote but I'm trying to keep this brief. The point is, this is misogyny. However, in "Sora not Sorry" (s28) we see none of these "us vs. them" thought patterns. The most misogynistic thing Butters does here is use misogynistic language like calling Red a "bitch", which— while I won't justify the use of that word— is not used to attack Red's girlhood, but rather calling her a synonym of "asshole" for no other reason than that she wronged him. And, well. She kind of did. Bebe says so herself;

"What the hell did I do to him?" "Well, you did kind of use him." (Bebe & Red in "Sora not Sorry", s28 ep3)

Red refutes this by saying she didn't use him, that he wanted to buy her a Labubu, which is also true. No one held a gun to Butters' head to spend so much money to buy a gift for Red, but Red did deceive him on purpose knowing that he'd fall for it.

There's philosophies and ethics we could detailedly discuss here in order to figure out exactly how much fault falls on Red vs. on Butters, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. As stated prior, Butters did do wrong, he did misuse AI-technology in order to humiliate and bully someone to get revenge, and Red acting three times as harsh in retaliation doesn't change the fact that he didn't have the right to do so. However, what I think speaks most for Butters' character in this episode is the speech he delivers at the end of the episode, and the lesson he proves to have learned:

"It wasn't their fault, alright? It's all my fault! This all started with me, because my heart was broken. I made the first videos using Sora 2 [...] and I thought I could make these about Red 'cause the bitch deserves it. But it was just me."

Truly, I can't tell exactly how much he realizes that he shouldn't have tried to get back at Red this way in the first place, but the point is he admits fault and accepts punishment for his actions. He admits wrongdoing for misusing AI-technology, and even if unclear how much he admits wrongdoing towards Red, he does attribute his actions to his own emotions ("because my heart was broken"). The later instance of him saying "'cause the bitch deserves it" might be him describing how he still feels as of now, but it's also likely that he is describing the way he felt in the moment he made the decision to act.

Unambiguously though, he admits wrongdoing to get his friends (Kenny and Kyle) out of trouble instead of dragging them further down with him ("It wasn't their fault, alright? It's all my fault!"), and I believe that this admittance and change of heart is the essence of Butters' character. Learning and admitting that he did wrong is what sets Butters apart from someone like Cartman, and is reminiscent of his actions in "Butters' Bottom Bitch" (s13) more than it is of the end of Butters' "Wieners Out"-arc of season 20.

[thehestiaa]

The way I read this, the argument for an absence of misogyny is that there wasn’t as much explicit rhetoric associated with the ideology, but I would say Butters’ willingness and frankly audacity to even do something like this is very much misogynistic, but more so an index [sociology term] of the lenses he has in perceiving the world around him. “Weiners Out” really did a number on him in terms of having this imposed label of being a misogynist, which in my opinion I feel like a creative mind can find ways to wrangle with this characteristic for a good story. A story of growth, or self reflection, whatever could be the possibility.

Butters’ overall demeanor in the show is in two halves, contrasting greatly but I’d argue is still rooted in patriarchal archetypes. Firstly, is his more innocent, unknowing, navigating of the world through the lens and words of his peers. His peers are all boys, men, and there’s a great deal of research and discussion in how young boys socialize one another into masculinity through the school setting. Butters is made aware of a lot of subjects like sex and sexuality at a very young age, and so do the other boys, and whether we want to lean on the detriment of that or not may not be too important for this topic. The point is, his naivety is one focal dimension of how he’s portrayed. Secondly, is this more viciously aware position of being a young boy, and how Butters is quite aware of various struggles happening around him. In a way this is teased in the episode where he goes to Hawai’i, but “Weiners Out” specifically demonstrates that he is quite socially aware of his position as a boy, but that consciousness is blatantly misogynistic.

My point though, is that both of these sides to him can be interpreted as being byproducts of misogyny, or at the very least patriarchal in origin. Young boys tend to be pampered in a variety of ways, whether it be literally through the covering of their ears to various social conflicts in their vicinity, or in permitting them to run along on tirades which should frankly be reprimanded. Funnily enough, homophobia and issues of gender are a part of this, as young boys socialize one another quite frequently into homophobia through demonstrating it in speech, action, and values held in their social circles [1]. In Butters’ case, while he is greatly disenfranchised by his parents and cyclical abuse, the lack of parental guidance does leave him vulnerable to ideologies of misogyny anyway, as he does have to participate like a boy amongst his peers and his society. You could argue that his period as Marjorine demonstrates how divergent the experience is and how that briefly changes his behavior (emotional vulnerability being well received and attended to by female peers to vs. shrugged off and berated or teased by male peers).

> 1: https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.14321/qed.0087?seq=6

I think the way I interpreted the use of the term misogyny is as though misogyny is a mindful weapon which is being wielded, and while that is absolutely an example, patriarchal-related afflictions are too misogyny. Butters’ interpretation of the failure in his relationship mirrors very real tropes of men in the modern day being unable to take rejection, and furthermore how they address flaws in ex-partners. Red was in the wrong to use him for material gains, similar to how Bebe used Clyde for material gains. However, just like in real world conditions, how the men interpret this going forward can be informed greatly by their socialization, and furthermore how their peers talk to them about the incident. Kyle kind of operated in a different way, in an almost vacuum in “The List”, where he’s a lot more self-defeating but doesn’t necessarily pin his ugliness and failure on people, but an omnipotent (God, iirc). Butters’ view is very grounded, it participates and is influenced by social forces around him, and he jumps onto the rhetoric of women only seeming to take advantage of him, which has aspects of misogynistic ideology to it. He has every right to be upset about her actions, but analyzing the choices he makes in responding to it is where we find aspects of ideology and social structures permeating into Butters’ worldview.

I think his conclusion on his actions and how he perceives their impact is a really good wrap up in terms of Butters’ own individual journey, but you also have to keep in mind that he is covering for his peers, who do not express a similar form of regret and recognition of the magnitude of their actions in the same vocal manner. Vocalizing your intents is very important, especially in media where a lot of non-verbal language can be lost or interpreted in many different directions. It’s also sometimes a matter of frames in a piece of media, and whether we can even see that non-verbal language. Kenny and Kyle are still being held to this disgusting action, but Butters at least vocalized that he realizes the error of his ways. Now, will he change? Was his willingness to speak up for genuine reasons or to cover his and his friends’ asses? It’s hard to say, we may never know because of the nature of the show jumping between various points. I mean come on, Stan was 10 multiple seasons ago and now he’s 9 again, and the kids who were starting up in the 90s are now overtly labeled GEN ALPHA by the show. But don’t let this ambiguity of continuity dissuade you from collecting these scattered facts about characters. I think these two aspects of Butters that I previously mentioned can coexist, especially if we look at how misogyny and patriarchal systems contribute to the ways in which young boys socialize, thrive or wither, and their perceived acceptance in responding to the world around them.

Quick note at the end, while I think the invoking of the term revenge porn is a bit misplaced based on how things were addressed and depicted, I would still argue that the content has an explicitness to it that would constitute something, but I dont know what that would be. Still, its explicit nature is also why police even choose to get involved, and how it climbs the ranks into being a court case

[mantequillamcwhoremick]

You raise good points and I very much thank you for your time and consideration in typing them all out. I won't try to argue against any of them considering I agree, and I retract my absolutist statements of none of Butters' actions in the episode (aside from the language he's using) being rooted in misogyny. The point I was trying to make here was moreso that I don't believe Butters is regressing to the same lengths of misogyny as he did in season 20, mostly because i was seeing many takes stating that this was the case (as is to be expected in fandom spaces). It would, of course, be flawed to assume there are no misogynistic ideals behind any of Butters thought patterns and actions, considering he grew up (as a cisgender boy, nonetheless) in a patriarchal society.

Another lens I operated under was that the shape which Butters' bullying takes here is one I could see being used in the same way against anyone regardless of gender (which later then was the case in when Red retaliated), and thus not exclusively a misogynistic action. The term "revenge porn" itself implies a strong link to actions usually weaponized in greater lengths against women, and perhaps I should've focused my points more around the fact on why I would not use the term to describe the content Butters generated to get back at Red. You argue that the content has an explicitness to it considering the matter wound up involving police and the law, however this was only the case when Red generated the first video of,, yk,, Butters fucking Totoro. I don't know where the videos Butters generated of Red here fall in that continuum of explicitness, and I agree they do land somewhere. What's true here is that his audacity to react in such a way is, indeed, rooted in patriarchal structures that encourage boys and men to re-establish their pride after being rejected or wronged by a woman.

Thanks again for your thorough response and also for linking the reference article. I've downloaded and am now reading through it with great interest. I'm not well-versed in sociology (I'm a psych student) so if you have any more interesting articles or papers on the topic you'd recommend please feel free to do so :> I still have lots of articles free this month on Jstor

[metalspike123]

he would probably use ai instead of drawing it

[swashbucklerred]

also i feel the need to say this: i am not adverse to kenny doing bad things. i think him working with stan on the crypto scam, or taking advantage of butters as an employee were very in character for him, especially since one of his earliest established character traits was "theres not much he wont do for money because his family is dirt poor". he also has a really immature sense of humour, and he will often tag along with his friends and help them prank people or otherwise make their lives miserable for a bit bc he thinks its funny. just because he has a big heart - and i do think he is generally a sweetie - doesnt mean he cant be a stinker

but him making ai revenge porn would be VERY out of character for him and im glad they didnt go that route, instead just having him laugh at/help make general ai videos that are gross and humiliating and hes awful for that (im not trying to diminish his actual bad actions) but not a full on sex crime. thats something CARTMAN would do - like when he sexually assaulted butters in his sleep and took photos of it which he shared with his friends - and i honestly think, from a meta standpoint, that the main reason red didnt have actual ai revenge porn made of her was bc it was butters and kenny working together instead of butters and cartman

kenny is an immature little kid who is often very selfish and inconsiderate, butters is a kid halfway down the alt right pipeline, but cartman is like. the devil. i think all three of them can be bad in different ways but theyre on different places in the scale and they have different lines they wouldnt want to cross

[swashbucklerred]

also: while red was definitely in the wrong for using butters for a good gift, one of the first things butters said about her when he thought she actually liked him was "im gonna find out if red haired girls have a red bush" so he was also using her from the beginning, and regardless making those humiliating ai videos was a HUGE overreaction

i do acknowledge though how red exacerbating it into actual revenge pornography by making fake videos of butters and kenny getting raped by cartoon characters means she was the bad guy in that situation. i am not adverse to red doing bad things either. especially since theyre finally giving her some fucking personality other than a few lines here and there

[north-park]

M&T are fathers of teenagers too i think they wouldn't be comfortable into making their self-inserts into characters who make cp, i think this is why some fans were so shocked when the trailer dropped lol

[dailykylebroflovski]

[stanleys-marsh]

unfortunately stan marsh is real

[butters-flower-mom]

Before I fall asleep I need to type out some non Butters related thoughts on this episode before I forget them.

There was a lot of meta stuff in this episode. I'm certain when Trump was saying he doesn't want the baby but it's too late now because everyone's so excited about it, that was Matt and Trey admitting they're not sure where to take this antichrist plot but can't just drop it because they've already put so much into it and fans want a genuine payoff to all this build up.

While trying to find more preview material before the episode aired, I came across articles about people using Sora 2 to make entire episodes of shows like South Park and Rick & Morty, which led to finding posts on Reddit of AI tech bros talking about how writers, animators, actors, etc. aren't needed anymore because of AI. This episode was absolutely a response to all of that, especially Yates' comment about feeling not needed anymore.

I also think that scene was more commentary similar to Woke Is Dead's, about Matt and Trey questioning the show's purpose when real life is now full of people intentionally trying to be as hateful and offensive as possible. "We used to go after real criminals" felt like them reflecting on how the famous people they used to mock were just rich people being dumb and out of touch but now they're making fun of living incarnations of Captain Planet villains.

I also appreciated how nothing involving the AI video of Bluey was shown on screen since an actual child voices the character. I also appreciated how the "real" Bluey never even swore. The whole point of the episode was being pissed about using AI to make characters do and say things they'd never say or do so Matt and Trey made sure to keep their portrayal of Bluey entirely in character to show that real humans have more 'tegrity than a machine ever will.

[mantequillamcwhoremick]

New bunny hc. Kenny is so down bad for Butters he joins in on all his morally reprehensible schemes in order to try and get butters to like him back. Instead of. Yk. Just flirting with him

[mantequillamcwhoremick]

Bunny becoming besties in crime & getting into shady shit together while Cartman is out of the picture is actually fantastic information

[mantequillamcwhoremick]

Going Native (s16): Kenny & Butters help a bunch of white wannabe native hawaiians reinstate their native status benefits

Sora not Sorry (s28): Kenny helps Butters make AI-generated revenge porn for his ex girlfriend

They are fucking AWFUL i need them beheaded in the town square TOGETHER

[jingerjoojersey]

reposting some older artwork from like may lolol

[0-dear-rose-0]

Old requests from ig