number 1 albedo hater

[geospiral]

Alien Stage as a series is in desperate need of an archive for people to keep up with all the content and for newer fans to be able to get into the series, as well as to keep some of said content from becoming lost media.

This is a passionately fan-made archive that strives to do just that! The person who made this went above and beyond, and there are so many things in here that I've never seen before. This is an ongoing project, so the creator is still working hard on things such as when it comes to making links for the series team and a comprehensive story guide. For now though, the gallery is extensive, and I urge you to please take a look! (they even have a collection of the Shikishi event art)

Their also on Twitter @/SegyeinArchive

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ALIEN STAGE: SEGYEIN ARCHIVE

Some images to entice you:

(Mizisua by: ANIYA, Sua by: YONGJEONSA)

(Round 3 meteor shower concept art: originally posted by SONGI)

[wlwhyuluka]

JOCKEMO IS NOT MISCHARACTERIZATION YOU JUST DONT GET IVANTILL

[wlwhyuluka]

mizi as a fox and luka as a goat… 👀 cause goats and foxes are associated with the devil…. 👀👀👀👀… do u guys get it…

luka - mizi parallels u will always be loved

[wlwhyuluka]

is it crazy to say that hyuna could be interpreted as a little girl fitting into the mold of “daughter forced to mother herself?” considering phan’s gross negligence and lack of morality when it comes to stuff, plus the fact that hyunwoo calls her noona already implies she’s the older of the two… this would also help explain her strive for independence, which causes her to be very avoidant when it comes to her feelings and the feelings of others.

it’s really tragic, because even as a young child, hyuna was forced into a hard situation. in face of their negligent (and who i interpret as unpredictable) guardian, hyuna was forced to grow up and feel an urge to protect and save her brother, because of the overwhelming threat of the society they exist in. even though her wanting to save people isn’t WRONG, it’s widely her only focus, which neglects her own needs. plus, this perspective aligns with her “bigger picture” mentality, which greatly clashes with mizi.

the factor that makes this EXTREMELY saddening is that because of the way she was treated as a child, and how this made her into a fundamentally avoidant person, she cannot grasp how much people love and want to protect her. hyunwoo always wanted to protect his big sister, even if they had issues. luka, while heavily misguided because of his OWN abuse, loved and cherished Hyuna so much, and wanted to keep her by his side for safety. even in their last moments together, luka covers her chest and cleans the blood off of her face. the rebellion, her friends and family, really cared for deeply, even if they had trouble seeing her issues.

this goes to say that i don’t like the notion that hyuna should be an “independent girlboss who doesn’t need anyone.” you don’t have to like luhyu as a ship, BUT you also have to acknowledge hyuna’s real feelings, not what you want her to be.

[wlwhyuluka]

alien stage headcanons from a desi girl 😳

[un-till-the-end-a]

Hmmm... how can I explain part of the reason Ivan is like that in Till's hallucinations is because we're seeing his CPTSD too, without people instantly downplaying the seriousness of what Ivan himself did :T

[un-till-the-end-a]

HELLO HI okay I’m back now that I’m done with my finals and can put my thoughts together :p

Putting everything r6 and forward together, it’s clear that Till has a lot of trauma surrounding his neck. We can count Ivan choking him as the first major incident, but part of me also wants to acknowledge how Till was treated with his collar, being the only character I could find who was being leashed. What was interesting to me is that in Blink Gone, Luka goes for Till’s neck first (FINAL 1:53-2:00), and immediately gets a panicked reaction (FINAL 1:59-2:02). It doesn’t look like Luka’s even really putting pressure on him, just holding his hands over Till’s throat (FINAL 1:56), and that’s enough to garner a response. You can see from 2:01-2:15 in Final that Till’s hand repeatedly keeps coming up to his neck, similarly to how it does in Cure (3:44-3:49). The stress and physical callback triggers his flashbacks (FINAL 2:31-2:51). After getting shot, Till doesn’t seem to struggle much with the sensation of the bandage on his throat, or his branding until his hallucinations of Ivan begin to touch him there (Scars 21-25). It’s after his hallucination of Ivan fully grasps his throat (Scars 30-33) that Till begins to have an adverse reaction to his panic, self-mutilating in the process (Scars 34). After years (Remember Everything 26-27) of grappling with his recovery, Till manages to have a sort of resolution with his feeling for Ivan, and he’s able to speak again, but Till understands that his hallucinations of Ivan are dependant on his own mental state (Remember Everything 42-43). Given that the latter part of The Witch’s Decision takes place after Remember Everything (as evidenced by Till’s notched ear and haircut), it seems that he seems to fluctuate heavily between levels of affectedness and accommodations (The Witch’s Decision 27-30) needed. That being said, in The Witch’s Decision, he doesn’t seem nearly as distressed as previously, or scratching as aggressively (28-29), possibly indicating a compulsion, with a level of recovery or coping skills.

On a purely emotional level, it’s something that I might just be projecting my own issues and reactions on to Till, but it’s cathartic and interesting to think about nonetheless :3 I hope this wasn’t too long btw!!

Oh wow you do have a lot of thoughts on this! Congrats on finishing your finals! It's not too long dw!

Ivan choking him isn't the first major incident. Urak grabs Till by his neck in the karaoke scene, and we can infer this has probably happened many times before. Urak grabs Till by his nape to avoid damaging his vocal cords, but both Ivan and Urak's grips are painful, and Till seems to subconsciously conflate the two. His hallucination of Ivan in "Scars" acts much more similar to Urak than Ivan ever did.

There's a lot I can say about Till's trauma surrounding his neck. He's been manhandled by the segyein by his neck. There's his collar and later leash which has been used to restrain and restrict him. The collars are shock collars, and Till's is especially powerful. I did learn shock collars can cause burns around the wearer's neck. There's his green patches which I suspect are used for medical experimentation. He's been restrained by his neck multiple times for that as well. There's the way he was held in place by metal around his neck while being branded. His neck is probably the body part with the highest and most varied amount of trauma associated with it. It's the perfect target for his self-mutilation as a means of holding off reexperiencing.

Till is struggling to make it through Blink Gone even before Luka goes for his neck. He's way past his limits physiologically and psychologically. After Luka goes for his neck the first time, Till tries to refocus, only to fall back apart without Luka even provoking him again. Till's completely shut down by the time Luka taunts him again, and Luka actually jeopardizes himself because it causes Till to spot Mizi in the crowd. Till had completely given up up to that point. You make a good point he keeps grabbing at his neck though! I'll have to look into that :)

Till is working through multiple traumas through his hallucination of Ivan. The bandage itself wouldn't necessarily be a trigger. As for "Remember Everything," I know fans have been interpreting it to have happened three years in, but I'm almost certain it's happening seven years in, right before Till cuts his hair. Aside from Till's hair still being shorter at the three year mark than it is when his ear is shot, a recent Q&A post claimed Till cut his hair "to sever ties with the past." Presumably he did this after coming to his revelations about Ivan and "family," so a relatively short amount of time occurred between that moment in "Remember Everything" and the end of "The Witch's Decision" (whether this is before or after the end scene in Karma, I'm not sure).

It's written in "Remember Everything" that he didn't see his hallucination of Ivan again, but he knows he'll come back when he falls apart again. This could be as a way to process more trauma, or as a comforting presence, or both. He also says it takes him some time to be able to speak again, and another Q&A post answered it takes him longer still to return to singing and song writing. So in the scenes at the end of Karma and "The Witch's Decision," he probably hasn't fully recovered his voice yet. He could possibly default to selective mutism as a coping mechanism when he gets overwhelmed (enough for his hallucination to return) - I'll have to look into that a bit more still.

I did wonder if he's scratching at his scars in "The Witch's Decision" because they itch? Then I questioned if that would really be the reason he'd be depicted that way, until I remembered he called them "itchy" in "Scars." It could definitely be out of habit! A compulsion implies OCD to me which Till's scratching to keep his hallucination "on his best behavior" could be interpreted that way. I hadn't thought of it like that until now, but OCD and avoidance behaviors can go hand in hand. He wouldn't continue with that compulsion though after learning to stop avoiding his trauma through it. I suppose it's possible to relapse into it though in times of high stress.

[un-till-the-end-a]

Ohh thank you for bringing up the Urak scene from Cure, I actually had included it in my original draft, but felt like it was grasping at straws too much since it was at the nape of his neck and not the front!! I’m so glad you felt it could be a connection too. I think the conflation of Urak and the Ivan hallucination is so neat (and sad), it’s obvious his behavior is off, but everyone seems to have a different interpretation as to why. I didn’t know that the collars were shock collars either! Gosh there’s so much that I still haven’t gotten through on the patreon. I also really appreciate your comments given the comics, I’m not sure exactly what it is about the english translations for me but I struggled with understanding some of the information in them. I have to admit, I was using compulsion as more of a layman’s term rather than being directly connected to OCD which is my bad, it was the best word I could think of. I think it’s more connected to his PTSD, maybe something more like a subconscious behavior/habit would be a better way to phrase it? I could almost see it being self-soothing in a way to prove that while there’s an emotional trigger, there’s no physical danger (in the moment). I’ve got to reread the comics once with a better understanding once I get a minute, but I’ve sooo so enjoyed getting to talk this out with someone!! Thank you for your insight! Hope I’m not spamming your inbox too much lol

It's not a stretch. There's actually a lot of parallels between the two scenes, which is something I noticed months back when making icons from Round 6. Either way, it doesn't have to be an exact match, it's about whether the association is there. For Till, what matters is emotional subjectivity, not objective reality, so the question becomes does he feel like they're similar. Unfortunately, the answer is probably yes, albeit subconsciously, since he doesn't tend to make logical connections like that. It really, really doesn't help that Urak's hand is so large it wraps around his entire neck. It might as well be a chokehold in reverse.

Yeah. I can't really claim with absolute certainty what's happening because I don't know how much the creators know on the subject. I'm just going to analyze it as if it's portrayed accurately. There's lots of misinformation among health professionals and researchers because of unrecognized biases. So even if the creators are diligent in their research, it still might not be enough to capture the experience well. There's pretty much always ambiguity in their story, but it works in their favor at times like this. It also means there's a lot of variety in fans' interpretations.

I was looking earlier to see if Till's self-harm wounds included self-asphyxiation or only the scratching, and it's really not clear. The former doesn't seem to be something that happens (self-harming while mistaking a hallucination to be the one doing so) even among people who don't realize it's not real (which Till does). Granted I am also limited by existing research because I'm not going to go into mental health communities asking about it.

Till definitely experiences his hallucination in full, since he feels Ivan's weight on him without visually seeing or auditorily hearing him. The most accurate representation would be Till is leaving defensive wounds on himself in response to reexperiencing being strangled. In retrospect, he could be hallucinating Ivan as the one causing the pain he's unknowingly inflicting on himself. After that, he realizes he can keep his symptoms at bay through self-harm and develops an unhealthy coping mechanism of tearing up his neck. It'd be a chain reaction: reexperiencing -> defensive wounds -> hallucinating Ivan leaving the wounds -> realizes self-harm suppresses his reexperiencing. It's not simultaneous and the causation is opposite how people are taking it: hallucinating Ivan hurting him == actually himself hurting himself. That reminds me, there's a trauma theory that directly relates to...

The collars being shock collars is in the art book only. I was honestly so shocked about it (no pun intended) that I messaged my friend to confirm that's what it really said. I was like oh... so that's why I've seen people writing it that way, since we've never seen anything like that in the series itself. I'm assuming you're reading the fan-translated version of "Scars" and not the machine-translated one on the Patreon? I've also been struggling with some lines in the comics that are really vague. Since I can't read Korean, I often check the Japanese version, and it's usually just as vague. It seems Korean in general is difficult to translate to other languages because that openness to interpretation is almost built into the language? I don't know, but I do want to learn Korean!

OCD can be due to (C)PTSD. It all depends on how you define it. Actually, Selective Mutism is a separate disorder despite being caused by his trauma. It exists outside his (C)PTSD too. So his scratching could be a compulsion which he defaults back to at times. The definition you described 'a compulsion to calm his anxiety when emotionally triggered' is basically OCD. That reminds me, I considered listing OCD as a disorder for my muse but decided against it because that was the only disorder there wasn't direct evidence for. All the other disorders are basically canon. This was all the way back in November before I wrote down anything else for this blog, but I didn't write anything else for myself about it. I wonder what in the world I spotted as a potential obsession-compulsion :'D

Nah you're not spamming my inbox. I enjoy talking with others about these topics too! Oh yeah I was considering doing a full deconstruction on these two comics once I have all the posts I need to support it. If only I could get my medical friend to respond to me for the posts that link loosely to other posts in which those posts support even more posts jflsdkfjslfs

[un-till-the-end-a]

Ivan strangled Till in a way that would be lethal

Whether or not he intended to kill him is another matter but pressing on Till's vocal cords like this is deadly. My friend, who's a medical resident, explained Ivan's thumbs are pushing on either side of the larynx. If the hyoid bone (at the top) is broken, it can cause severe damage to the airway. (The middle image below shows where Ivan's thumbs are pressing.)

I questioned if Ivan's thumbs weren't pressing on the sternocleidomastoid muscle instead. The middle image is what he returned to me (blue representing Till's voice box/windpipe and red the sternocleidomastoid):

"Isn't this the same method used for breath play?"

Fans have claimed Ivan is choking Till the way you would for erotic asphyxiation. The main problem with this argument is: there is no guaranteed "safe" way to choke someone.

The "method" used for breath play is pressing on the carotid arteries while avoiding pressure on the windpipe. This decreases blood flow to the brain both directly through constriction of the arteries and indirectly through compression of the baroreceptors triggering decreased blood pressure and heart rate. This can lead to cardiac arrest as well as permanent brain damage.

There are numerous ways breath play can be fatal including: cardiac arrest, respiratory alkalosis (decreased carbon dioxide increases blood pH), metabolic acidosis (decreased oxygen decreases blood pH), rupture of the windpipe, fracture of the larynx, blood vessel damage, stroke, seizures, and aspiration (saliva, vomit, etc. gets into airway/lungs). You cannot predict when someone will go unconscious and detection of an abnormal heart rhythm can already be too late.

Even if Ivan had strangled Till in the same manner as erotic asphyxiation, it would remain potentially lethal.

"Shouldn't Till have struggled?"

Another claim has been that Till would have autonomically struggled rather than going still. Research does not support this: there is no indication there is a universal reflex that occurs in all cases of strangulation. Not all strangulation victims have shown defensive movements.

Was this Ivan's intention?

My first impression from the Round 6 Behind was that Ivan had tried to kill Till, because he didn't know what he wanted to do. Vivinos explained:

With [the second draft], however, we felt that Ivan's emotions weren't being conveyed fully - so we decided to revise it once again. We made it so that viewers wouldn't be able to fully grasp Ivan's true feelings. After all, he's the only one who will ever know how he truly feels. You can't just move on from such long, deep-seated emotions in such a short time. Ivan tries to strangle Till, then kisses him, stares at him yearningly, and murmurs nonsense. His contradicting actions show his clashing emotions - he is both sure and unsure at the same time.

It's also explained that "in the end [Ivan] pours his emotions out and acts like a child." It's repeated again later that Ivan is "emotionally immature" and "expresses his emotions like a child." This gave me the impression that Ivan is just acting out and trying everything. He isn't acting with a plan in that moment, he is just expressing his emotions in every way possible.

However, in the most recent Q&A during Animate Thailand, it's answered Ivan strangled Till with the intent for Till to survive.

This brings a lot of questions I can't answer. When did Ivan decide strangling Till would be the best way to save him? Did he originally try to kill Till and then shifted his goal to saving him instead? Did he plan to strangle him from the start? Did he have a plan at all?

Since this is a rare moment Ivan's behavior is being driven by his emotions, perhaps - much like Till's character - we cannot assess his actions logically. At some point, Ivan felt that this is what he needed to do to keep Till alive. There wasn't a plan, a structure, or a methodology. Ivan either didn't know or didn't even consider he could accidentally kill Till. He didn't realize strangulation can be fatal even without constricting his air supply. He only knew if he used violence to be disqualified - to be shot down - then Till would win by default.

[un-till-the-end-a]

Till's response to Ivan's kiss

When I was first scrutinizing the IvanTill kiss, I noticed it didn't look like Till was pushing Ivan away. He wasn't leaning forward with any force. Instead, it looked like he simply brought his hand up to Ivan's chest while Ivan grabbed behind his head and pulled him closer to him.

It wasn't until I went frame by frame, that I realized Till's not pushing Ivan away: Till is pushing himself away. That's why Ivan suddenly pulls him in closer.

Maybe people find Till pushing Ivan away versus Till pushing himself away one and the same. But I find the difference significant. Because to me, that shows Till's not fighting: he's fleeing. He tried to get away and Ivan kept him trapped. And Ivan pulls him in the instant he feels Till trying to escape.

And Till tries this twice! The first time he tries to duck out from under him and gets grabbed and pulled back in:

And then he tries again right after, this time more forcefully, pushing with his arms extended to put distance between them:

This is also the moment he makes that extremely distressed expression and Ivan looks at him super softly:

After Ivan forces him back a second time, he gives up on escaping it. His fingers curl away from and slip off Ivan's chest. His shoulders are tense and hunched as he continues recoiling from the kiss.

Meanwhile, Ivan is kissing and grabbing him a lot more aggressively than before.

Till keeps expressing his distress without any more attempts to get away.

It means a lot that Till, who is known to have a strong fight response, opts to flee instead. It suggests he doesn't want to hurt Ivan, but he's terrified and he wants out of that situation.

He doesn't fight in the metaphorical version of their kiss either. He doesn't even try to get him off of him. His fingers slip right off of Ivan's sleeve. His other hand pushes against Ivan's hips only enough to ease his weight atop of him. He squirms and struggles beneath Ivan pinning him down while looking up at him with confusion and terror. Once again, he doesn't want to hurt him. He just wants out of that situation.

Till isn't viewing Ivan as an aggressor the same way he does the segyein. But he doesn't understand what Ivan's doing either.

He wants his own body back. He wants space so he can process his feelings about it. He wants to be away so he can feel safe. There's a moment he gets this relief - until he realizes what just happened.

The artbook tells us:

In "Scars," Till flees from his hallucination of Ivan too. He pulls back but doesn't even touch Ivan in return. Despite Till's visible discomfort, Ivan suggests they keep going. The real Ivan didn't even ask.

[un-till-the-end-a]

In support of recent QA and "Ivan either didn't know or didn't even consider he could accidentally kill Till."

I think it's pretty important that he held Till at arm's length, as far as possible from himslef. This is an extremely awkward position for choking or strangling someone, especially weighing a solid 70 kg, it's way easier and "natural" if the arms are bent. Plus he also covered sides of his neck and contestants are ~usually~ shot in the neck, also a subconsciously (?) or consciously a protective stance.

Yeah I don't know. Ivan was pulling Till around by his neck. He grabs him when he was close, holds him away from him, pulls him close again, and then holds him away from him again. If anything, that aligns with Vivinos commentary that "his contradicting actions show his clashing emotions - he is both sure and unsure at the same time."

Sure, he pulls him close again to kiss him again (which is a separate issue). He does look at the scoreboard first before kissing him again though.

I don't know what Ivan was thinking and feeling during that scene, and since that's meant to be the case, I don't know if we ever will. I doubt Ivan was thinking about it being less lethal to hold Till away from him. I'm pretty sure that actually makes him more likely to break Till's larynx. He can then put his arms and shoulders into it instead of just his wrists and fingers. He's also having to maintain his grip while being shot at.

I knew about fans suggesting Ivan covered Till's neck as if he's trying to protect him from the bullet, but Ivan's hands cover the sides of Till's neck because he's strangling him. There isn't a lot I can say or argue about it. Mizi's hands also wrapped around Luka's neck when she strangled him.

[un-till-the-end-a]

Ivan strangled Till in a way that would be lethal

Whether or not he intended to kill him is another matter but pressing on Till's vocal cords like this is deadly. My friend, who's a medical resident, explained Ivan's thumbs are pushing on either side of the larynx. If the hyoid bone (at the top) is broken, it can cause severe damage to the airway. (The middle image below shows where Ivan's thumbs are pressing.)

I questioned if Ivan's thumbs weren't pressing on the sternocleidomastoid muscle instead. The middle image is what he returned to me (blue representing Till's voice box/windpipe and red the sternocleidomastoid):

"Isn't this the same method used for breath play?"

Fans have claimed Ivan is choking Till the way you would for erotic asphyxiation. The main problem with this argument is: there is no guaranteed "safe" way to choke someone.

The "method" used for breath play is pressing on the carotid arteries while avoiding pressure on the windpipe. This decreases blood flow to the brain both directly through constriction of the arteries and indirectly through compression of the baroreceptors triggering decreased blood pressure and heart rate. This can lead to cardiac arrest as well as permanent brain damage.

There are numerous ways breath play can be fatal including: cardiac arrest, respiratory alkalosis (decreased carbon dioxide increases blood pH), metabolic acidosis (decreased oxygen decreases blood pH), rupture of the windpipe, fracture of the larynx, blood vessel damage, stroke, seizures, and aspiration (saliva, vomit, etc. gets into airway/lungs). You cannot predict when someone will go unconscious and detection of an abnormal heart rhythm can already be too late.

Even if Ivan had strangled Till in the same manner as erotic asphyxiation, it would remain potentially lethal.

"Shouldn't Till have struggled?"

Another claim has been that Till would have autonomically struggled rather than going still. Research does not support this: there is no indication there is a universal reflex that occurs in all cases of strangulation. Not all strangulation victims have shown defensive movements.

Was this Ivan's intention?

My first impression from the Round 6 Behind was that Ivan had tried to kill Till, because he didn't know what he wanted to do. Vivinos explained:

With [the second draft], however, we felt that Ivan's emotions weren't being conveyed fully - so we decided to revise it once again. We made it so that viewers wouldn't be able to fully grasp Ivan's true feelings. After all, he's the only one who will ever know how he truly feels. You can't just move on from such long, deep-seated emotions in such a short time. Ivan tries to strangle Till, then kisses him, stares at him yearningly, and murmurs nonsense. His contradicting actions show his clashing emotions - he is both sure and unsure at the same time.

It's also explained that "in the end [Ivan] pours his emotions out and acts like a child." It's repeated again later that Ivan is "emotionally immature" and "expresses his emotions like a child." This gave me the impression that Ivan is just acting out and trying everything. He isn't acting with a plan in that moment, he is just expressing his emotions in every way possible.

However, in the most recent Q&A during Animate Thailand, it's answered Ivan strangled Till with the intent for Till to survive.

This brings a lot of questions I can't answer. When did Ivan decide strangling Till would be the best way to save him? Did he originally try to kill Till and then shifted his goal to saving him instead? Did he plan to strangle him from the start? Did he have a plan at all?

Since this is a rare moment Ivan's behavior is being driven by his emotions, perhaps - much like Till's character - we cannot assess his actions logically. At some point, Ivan felt that this is what he needed to do to keep Till alive. There wasn't a plan, a structure, or a methodology. Ivan either didn't know or didn't even consider he could accidentally kill Till. He didn't realize strangulation can be fatal even without constricting his air supply. He only knew if he used violence to be disqualified - to be shot down - then Till would win by default.

[un-till-the-end-a]

I don't know why people are being so quick to protest that Ivan could and would have killed Till choking him like that, but I feel like people need a reminder of what that scene actually looked like. Pay attention to the skin around Till's neck.

The skin bunches up every time Ivan squeezes tighter. Ivan also has to maintain a firm enough grip to hold on while he's being shot at.

[un-till-the-end-a]

SA by the segyein vs Ivan's kiss

I hate to say it, but I think Till does associate Ivan's kiss with his assault by the segyein. And I'm almost certain Vivinos intends for us to too. There are several parallels and Till's reactions and behavior are very similar. I think part of the purpose behind including the karaoke scene is for it to contrast with Ivan's actions during Round 6.

In both scenes, Till is expected to sing but has given up.

Urak and Ivan both grab his face while he looks at them with uncertainty.

He's manhandled and overpowered. He's kept trapped.

They both grab him by the neck.

Ivan's hand is also threaded through Till's hair.

Till's expressions are similar in his eyes and the shape of his mouth.

He's biting into his lip the entire time which seems to be a habit he does when severely distressed.

In Karma, during the metaphorical representation of Ivan's kiss, Till's shirt collar is undone just like it is in the karaoke bar.

In spite these similarities, the differences are just as significant.

Till's eyes dilate when he sees Ivan.

Till fights against the segyein, but when Ivan kisses him, he flees.

Urak grabs him harshly but Ivan grabs him tenderly. Ivan pushes Till's lip back up when he bites down into it.

Urak grips Till from his nape to avoid damaging his vocal cords. When Ivan strangles him, he presses directly on them.

Till resists the segyein, but he surrenders to Ivan.

Still, there are distinctions we can't claim. We can't claim they're not both trying to control him. We can't claim they don't both cause him pain. We can't even say they don't both intend to hurt him. Ivan's motivations are certainly different, but both the segyein and Ivan resorted to violence and power to make Till do as they want.

Till is incredibly confused and scared. He's severely traumatized by both experiences. Yet while Till wants to hurt the segyein, he doesn't want to hurt Ivan. His expression towards Ivan also holds concern. His fear is for Ivan as much as it is for himself. He's willing to hand his life over to Ivan. If he has to die, he wants it to be by his friend's hands.

[paragayyy]

ivan’s birthday art this year was definitely a bit of a surprise, and of course the fandom’s reaction was to go insane over this, because ivan is one of the most popular (and covered up) characters and so you get a lot of posts thirsting over him. (i am not immune to this. you can see his belly button actually)

the fact that he’s presented this way at all is super interesting to me though. it’s a subtle 4th wall break and i really like that it’s been consistent throughout the entire series: you, the viewer, are part of the audience. the segyein are objectifying and dehumanizing them, and so are you. YOU ARE PART OF THE AUDIENCE.

it is also extremely telling that they do this the MOST with ivan. he’s the fan favorite for a reason, both in-universe and in fandom. we like his aesthetic beauty, but the allure is part of his persona. and what i mean by “this” are the glamour magazine shots. because sua and luka are both pretty and have their own fanbases, but neither of them have art like this. sua doesn’t have any like this, even though we know she did advertisements while in anakt garden. luka has glamour shots of his own, but they’re much more detached/artistically oriented than ivan’s, with logos displayed both on the magazine and on himself too. ivan's a commodity, as it were. a lot more accessible than the lofty “prince of the stage” luka.

and ivan knows he’s hot and knows exactly how to wield that to his advantage. the short one page comic in the bday post & the anakt garden kit show him as seemingly a playboy type.

what makes this more interesting though, is that while he may be aware of how other people perceive him and how to use that to his advantage, he doesn’t actually believe himself to be all that attractive. like he knows objectively that people find him attractive but he personally doesn’t think that he is… which is probably one of the most human insecurities one could have, but he doesn’t have the words to understand that feeling.

but also… he has to. in this cutthroat world, he must play his role perfectly or else be discarded. he’s not like till, with his raw musical genius, or luka, who’s already won a season and the fanbase to support him. so of course he has to sell himself.

also, given everything about the karaoke scene, and also knowing that ivan has had r18 fantasies about till, i wonder how much he resents that 1) he allows this to happen to himself but also 2) the fact that he has desires towards till at all. like he just submits to the segyein, but he knows till wouldn't. and they don't understand what kissing is and their sex ed is basically only as far as a biological function, so i think this would just reinforce his warped perception of himself and his desires as perverse or disgusting. in his eyes, these desires make him no better than a segyein.

[paragayyy]

my personal hc is that ivan’s best dreams are him crawling into till’s veins and ceasing to exist and ivan’s worst nightmares are actually having sex with till. does that make sense

[paragayyy]

this was brought about by my own meta post abt ivan’s bday art actually, bc the karaoke scene in round 6 strongly implies that they were sexually assaulted, but where till fights back ivan just accepts it. which has SO many interesting implications, but it also got me thinking like… we know ivan has canonically had r18 thoughts about till before, and he was the one who found till after the karaoke scene in round 6, so i can’t help but wonder… given how little they know about human sexuality, i think ivan’s r18 fantasies would actually be his nightmares.

he already thinks of himself and his feelings as twisted and wrong, and while we might extrapolate that to place it in the context of the “predatory gay man” trope and deconstructing that, in and of itself ivan doesn’t think his feelings are wrong because he’s attracted to men. he thinks they’re wrong because they’re intense, obsessive and possessive, nothing like how his peers show their affection. and him having r18 fantasies would only reinforce that.

and so given the karaoke scene and all its disturbing implications, i wonder if, in ivan’s eyes, having those r18 fantasies would make him no better than a segyein. after all, that’s probably their only knowledge/experience of sexual encounters. as far as we know, they seem to understand human sexuality only on a biological level (they don’t know what kissing means, and the true face comic where the guy says men and women can’t be friends bc it leads to mating).

which is why i think that ivan’s worst nightmares would be actually having sex with till. who tops/bottoms is irrelevant here, it’s just the act of touching him in that manner that makes it so disturbing for him.

so then his best dreams are crawling into till’s veins and ceasing to exist/anything along that vein (ha) because well. paratise exists. i don’t think i need to explain further

[bluemoonscape]

To me, this is the thesis of Alien Stage. For each duo and in more ways than one.

For Ivantill, Till might never have loved Ivan romantically, though we do have indications he may have. Either way, he didn’t love Ivan the same way Ivan loved Till. He didn’t obsess over Ivan the way Ivan did Till. He didn’t want to accept Ivan’s sacrifice the way Mizi accepted Sua’s sacrifice, but Ivan forced it on him. Till’s love was different from Ivan’s, but does that really matter? It was love, too.

Interestingly enough, Luka has both Hyuna and Hyunwoo’s hearts. Despite everything, Luka lived. Hyunwoo initiated the fight between them, and Luka reacted violently, which led to Hyunwoo’s death. Luka was shot at, and Hyuna took the bullet, killing her. Luka has lived in spite of everything because of their deaths. Hyuna loved Luka, but her sacrifice was one made partially out of revenge. Luka may have loved Hyunwoo when they were friends as kids, but he still killed him. He may have loved Hyuna, but he still hurt her. But it was love. Nonetheless, it was love.

And, of course, Mizisua. Mizi didn’t love Sua in a way that propelled her to sacrifice herself for Sua. Sua’s love was the kind that made it impossible for Sua to live without Mizi. If you recall their mental strengths, Sua’s is extremely low while Mizi’s is strong. Mizi knew Sua couldn’t handle if Mizi died. Mizi underestimated just how much Sua’s death would ruin her, but she was willing to bear it so Sua didn’t have to bear losing her. She might not have been willing to die for Sua, but she gave Sua a gift, too. She let Sua give Mizi her sacrifice. And that’s love. That was love.

Even Mizi’s monologue about Hyuna is riddled with the weight of this theme.

Mizi is bitter because Hyuna fought for so long for humanity—a wider concept than Mizi can perhaps even comprehend, having lived isolated and then in ANAKT her whole life. She fought for something that seemed to mean so much, and then she threw it all away for Luka, a man who Mizi seems to loathe and whom she thought Hyuna loathed too.

Mizi is angry because Hyuna’s love, Hyuna’s sense of justice, required sacrifice. For humans, and for Luka. Mizi’s lingering bitterness over Sua’s decision transfers to Hyuna, because why? Why does your love demand you to die for it for nothing?

But it wasn’t for nothing.

Because even though Sua sacrificed herself for Mizi, and Hyuna risked her life to save her and then died for Luka only ended in Mizi’s death by her own hand—Luka either dying and being replaced or continuing to be imprisoned by the aliens for entertainment—

Even if Hyuna’s love for humanity and belief in their freedom only led to children in museum displays rather than stages—

It mattered.

Mizi still destroyed the competition that ruined her and Sua. She still cemented Ivan’s sacrifice by saving Till.

Hyuna still got her justice. She stopped running. Even if Luka remains trapped, his life still means something.

They all loved each other and the world differently, but it was love too. And it’s never for nothing.

[paragayyy]

in retrospect it is SO obvious that till was always projecting ivan onto mizi but i just wanna point out some of the discrepancies USING ONLY MV SCREENSHOTS.

in round 2 we get this sequence when he sings "my feelings are Error: no better options" which, i don't think you say that about someone you have a hopeless crush on. what do you mean "no better options," that sounds like you're settling or something. also error??? so you were focused on the wrong person, till??? hmm i wonder what this could be about...

and this one is when he sings "(you'll never know) i don't wanna stop" which... idk! maybe that ivan was never able to know how much he meant to till in his lifetime

anyways this is him fantasizing about mizi, right?? or at least it seems that way. however if you actually look closer, there are some… rather obvious issues…

EXHIBIT A:

her hair is wrong. mizi doesn’t have bangs like that. her bangs are more off to the side and not as straight cut across her forehead. also she just has more hair in general?? screenshots from r1

you know who DOES have bangs cut straight across his forehead? ivan. (r3 but also literally every single art of him)

EXHIBIT B:

this one is subtler, and also what got me thinking about this in the first place, but her eyelashes are also wrong. mizi doesn't have thick lashes like that.

r1 vs r2

as you can see, till draws mizi/visualizes mizi with really thick lashes, and all in a clump. in reality, though, her lashes are thinner, and spikier towards the edges. especially her bottom eyelashes.

do i even need to say who has eyelashes like that? it's one of his distinguishing features! (screenshot from wiege)

EXHIBIT C:

i feel like i'm beating a dead horse at this point, but anyways. the hands behind the back pose. mizi does not do that. IVAN DOES THAT. (more screenshots from wiege)

also, like, her general pose and body language in the “pass” frame are so so SO reminiscient of ivan. like if you remove the ponytail and glasses that is basically just ivan but with pink hair. till you are NOT subtle at all buddy…

anyways! i think most people are aware by now that till was projecting onto mizi, but maybe never noticed how far back the clues were. they were right there from the start. it's just that we got a little blinded from the story telling us that till has a crush on mizi. (or at least i did lol). alnst is one of those media where you notice new things every time you rewatch and it's really nice to pick up on them