Capt. Smitty

Masterlist / AO3 / Ko-fi Oops, I'm a Greek Mythos blog rn. I post mainly 18+ content, so interact at your own discretion. Minors, shoo shoo.

[prompted-wordsmith]

Historical Masterlist

—Masterlist for historical or mythological figures

AKA the "Epics and Plays" Masterlist. Contains figures from prior to the 20th century. If you're looking for 20th century or later, go to the RPF Masterlist.

I do not give permission to podfic, translate, or otherwise repost my work. It is protected by copyright.

Writing for:

The Odyssey

The Iliad

Greek Mythos

Harry "Hotspur" Percy

The Song of Roland

Beowulf

----------------------------------------------

The Iliad Masterlist

Pairings: Odysseus x Penelope, Odysseus x Misc

Warnings: Violence, themes of rape/noncon, historically accurate murdering

The Odyssey Masterlist

Pairings: Odysseus x Penelope, Odysseus x Misc

Warnings: Violence, themes of rape/noncon, historically accurate murdering. The usual associated with our favorite war criminal.

[olidel]

[prompted-wordsmith]

ODYSSEUS IS NOT A SUBBY LITTLE TWINK

Or: an analysis of EtM fandom biases and internalised misogyny

What a title. I want to start this off by saying that this essay isn’t meant to attack shippers, or artists, or writers. This is a general analysis of Epic: the Musical fandom (henceforth referred to as “fandom” unless otherwise specified) biases through the lens of my current hyperfixation: Odysseus.

Let’s begin with a simple fact. Artists and writers within the wider Greek Mythos fandom, which encompasses all sorts of media—Homer’s works and their derivatives, such as Epic: the Musical, the Hades games by Supergiant, even Ulysses dies at Dawn by the Mechanisms—have a myriad of interpretations of Odysseus. It often comes down to which media you prefer, just as within the more academic world of Greek mythos you have those who pick and choose which theologian (Hesiod, Apollodorus, etc.),  or epic (the Thebaid, the Aeneid, the Odyssey, etc.) or play (Sophocles, Euripides, etc.) they prefer the characters and characterisation of. So what caused the mass conception of Odysseus as the submissive bottom in the gay relationships the EtM fandom ascribes to him? Why is he, here on Tumblr, often shown as a twink? To answer those questions, we have to first define a couple terms.

Defining Terms

Submissive (sub): in Bondage, Dominance, Sadism & Masochism (BSDM) communities, this refers to a partner that assumes a submissive role. However, it should be noted that this does not include a lack of agency or power. To define the word submissive itself, I’ve turned to the Cambridge dictionary:

A sub, in the context of shipping, is often used as interchangeable with another word: bottom. But these are two entirely separate terms, so let’s define that one, too. Bottom (bot): as in a sexual relationship, the partner which is being penetrated.

And you might be asking, “Smitty, why does it matter the definitions?” I’ll point you towards this lovely article put out by the SF Aids Foundation, which has a very pertinent quote:

“But here’s the thing: dominance and submission exist independently from physical positions. They operate on separate axes. Being dominant doesn’t automatically make someone a top, just as being submissive doesn’t make someone a bottom. These dynamics can manifest in countless ways, from gentle guidance to explicit direction, from warm encouragement to playful teasing.”

For tagging purposes here on tumblr, you might see the mashing of these two terms together into a new term, “subbot”, which refers to both the submissive and bottom roles a sexual partner assumes. 

I would like to re-emphasise that neither of these terms includes the lack of agency seen in non consensual or dubiously consensual relationships.

And, finally, if you’ve gotten this far? You probably know what a twink is, but for the sake of completeness and to make sure we’re all on the same page, let’s define it: Twink: a term used to describe a gay man that is often effeminate or otherwise defiant of traditional masculine gender norms; physically described as thin and slight, with little to no body hair.

I’ve taken this definition from the sources listed in the LGBTQIA+ wiki, which does expand on further. For the sake of brevity (Smitty says, writing hundreds of words about fandom tropes) I’ll just let you read the wiki yourself. Ok, we’ve got our definitions. Even made flash cards. We’re studied up, we’re ready. Finally, I’ll lay the thesis on you.

The Thesis

The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative. Wow. Much word. Let’s break it down.

The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative. Patriarchal values: we live in a patriarchy. A male-dominated society, which prioritises men over women in terms of social status. This leads to stereotypes such as “women are weak-willed” and “men must be strong.” By “values”, I’m referring to feminine and masculine roles which align with this patriarchy.

The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative. Onto relationships: the fandom is applying the patriarchal society it exists in to the relationships it’s shipping. In other words, those feminine and masculine roles, which are the two halves of a heterosexual relationship, are being projected onto relationships that the fandom ships. The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative. By ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects: Ignoring characterisation of both the source itself (Epic: the Musical) as well as what it’s derived from (Homer’s The Odyssey) to the ends of enforcing heterosexual roles. This includes what Odysseus looks like, i.e. physical appearance/characteristics, as well as personality, i.e. mental characteristics. The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative.

In order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative: Women, who occupy the feminine gender role in a patriarchy, are supposedly less physically imposing, emotional, weak, pathetic; the ones being penetrated when sex is involved. Men, who occupy the masculine gender role within a patriarchy, are supppsedly physically imposing, stoic, strong, in control; the ones doing the penetrating, when sex is involved. In other words, this is saying even gay ships within the fandom exhibit the same gender roles as a heterosexual relationship as enforced by the patriarchy.

Trends and Tropes

The prevailing trend in the EtM fandom is towards interpretations where Odysseus is shown to be slight, with little or no facial hair. In writing, he’s the bottom, and beyond that he’s submissive—but not as he would be in a healthy, well-negotiated BSDM relationship. These two terms (“bottom” and “sub”) are constantly conflated when it comes to Odysseus. To that end, he also has derogatory terms which essentially mean the same thing ascribed to him: malewife, manwhore, etc. These tropes exist. They’re popular, spawning literally hundreds of fanfics for one sexual position…

…And maybe tens of them for another.

That’s 2.3x the amount of tagged bottom Odysseus fanfics on AO3 versus tagged top Odysseus fanfics on AO3. I emphasise the tagged because, beyond the fanfics tagged in this manner, there are innumerable amounts untagged but which fit into these tropes where Odysseus is submissive and/or a bottom. Oftentimes it’s both, with a side of non-consent. The distinction is very murky, and that is the reason I defined the two at the beginning of this essay. Why is this idea so prevalent? Why are these two terms—bottom and sub—conflated so heavily for Odysseus in particular within the EtM fandom?

Source vs Derivative

In the original Odyssey, Odysseus is a sexual assault victim. I’m not going deeper into that statement because there are many people who have done many essays on that exact subject, and I urge you to find and read them (I recommend this one by dootznbootz about specifically Circe's assault). Odysseus is also a character who doesn’t shy from showing his emotions. To that end, I’ve chosen some snippets from Kline’s translation of the Odyssey simply for the accessibility of the text to my readers: Of his time on Calypso’s isle (BkV:43-91 Hermes visits Calypso)

“Of Odysseus there was no sign, since he sat wretched as ever on the shore, troubling his heart with tears and sighs of grief. There he could gaze out over the rolling waves, with streaming eyes.”

And when he is retelling his whole story to the Phaeacians (BkVII:240-297 Odysseus tells of his arrival)

“...the tenth night of darkness the gods washed me shore on Ogygia, where lives that dread goddess Calypso of the lovely tresses. She welcomes me to her home with kindness, fed me, and promised to make me ageless and immortal, but she never reached my heart. Seven whole years I stayed there, soaking the everlasting garments Calypso gave me with my tears. But when the eighth year came round, she urged me to go, because of some message from Zeus, or because her feelings had changed.”

And finally when Odysseus hears a bard sing of the fall of Troy (BkVIII:521-585 Alcinous questions Odysseus)

“And Odysseus’ heart melted, and tears poured from his eyes. He wept pitifully, as a woman weeps who throws herself on her husband’s dying body, fallen in front of his city and people, trying to ward off that evil moment from the city and his own children: watching him gasping for breath in dying, she clings to him and screams aloud, while behind her the enemy beat her back and shoulders with their spears: then she is led into captivity to endure a life of toil and suffering, her cheeks wasted pitifully with grief. He hid the falling tears from all except Alcinous, who, aware because he sat by him, noticed all, and heard him sighing deeply. At one he addressed the sea-faring Phaeacians: ‘Leaders and Counsellors of the Phaeacians, hear me, and let Demodocus still his ringing lyre, since his song fails to give pleasure to all alike. From the moment of our feast when our divine bard was inspired to sing, this stranger has never stopped his sad grieving, his heart must surely be overflowing with sorrow. Let the bard refrain, and let us enjoy ourselves, hosts and guest alike: that would be better. We prepared all this for the sake of a sacred stranger after all, this farewell and the gifts of friendship we give with love. To a man of any intelligence, a stranger, a suppliant, is dear as a brother.'”

He cries. Openly. Multiple times. And you might be asking, “Smitty, we’re talking about Epic: the Musical, not the Odyssey. Why are you bringing it up?” Within Epic: the Musical, certain scenes are given more leeway for interpretation—but the coercion of EtM Circe, for example, is still present and very real. The lyric which EtM Circe sings, “Want to save your men from the fire? / Show me that you're willing to burn” shows this the best. She is demanding sex in return for freeing his men from her spell. EtM Calypso, whom I will compare directly to the Odyssey snippets provided, still keeps Odysseus trapped for seven years upon her isle—even if you choose to ignore the following lyrics: [CALYPSO] Anyways, I've got all you could want here All you could need here Just you and me, my dear, my love for life Soon, into bed we'll climb and spend our time

[ODYSSEUS] I'm not your man

[CALYPSO] I'm what you want here, I'm what you need here Just you and me, my love in paradise Now 'til the end of time From here on out, you're mine, all mine

[ODYSSEUS] Hell no, I could kill you where you stand I'm no pet, I'm a married man

[CALYPSO] Oh handsome, you may try But last I checked, goddesses can't die

I’ve taken the liberty of bolding the lyrics which are particularly relevant to this point. EtM Calypso insists that Odysseus join her in bed—assumes it as a given—and when Odysseus refuses? She insists again. Calls him hers, as one might an object. When Odysseus resorts to threats to protect his person, Calypso replies that she cannot die… and then laughs. Now, I ask for you to go through a thought exercise with me. If this—

“Soon we’ll get into bed together, pretty, just you wait.” “No. I already have a partner.” “You’re still mine.” “Stop it—I have a knife! Back up!” “A knife won’t change how this ends. Haha!”

—Was a conversation between a man and a woman… who would you call the “masculine” person and who would you call the “feminine” person? The orange is the masculine, right? He’s threatening the feminine person (green) into sex. That’s what comes about in a patriarchy. The same thing is happening to Odysseus in the Odyssey happens to Odysseus in Epic: the Musical. With Calypso, with Circe, there is sexual coercion. And what does he do? Beg it to not happen and cry, as any victim of assault might in the immediate threat and in the aftermath, no matter their gender. He did so in the Odyssey, and he did so in the musical which is based off of it. No difference, there. This is all to say: for all intents and purposes, EtM Odysseus and his Odyssey counterpart experience similar scenarios. However, why is Epic: the Musical such a breeding ground for unhealthily submissive, bottom Odysseus?

Putting it All Together

These shows of emotion are one of the contributors to fandom ascribing him a submissive role. In the end, modern society demands of its men a lack of such a thing: call it what you will, ‘toxic masculinity’ or another phrase, but men who show such emotions are often called slurs (gay and its far ruder explicative), a “little girl”, which is in and of itself misogynistic, or otherwise degraded. They’re associated with someone who is penetrated (“gay”), and with femininity (“little girl”). The bucking of masculine gendered norms? Well that means a man is equated with the supposed weakness associated with femininity. This fandom has been a reflection of the patriarchal society we live in, because it does the exact same thing: associates being emotional, being the one who is assaulted, the one who is penetrated with being feminine—and in turn weakness of character. I mentioned earlier the use of terms such as “malewife” and “manwhore” to describe Odysseus. But let’s think critically about those for a minute: “Malewife” = “Male” + “Wife”

→ Attributes the feminine gendered term “wife” to someone submissive within a relationship. Does that mean women, wives, are inherently submissive? So much so that when a masculine person inhabits that role, we must put “male” in front of the word to denote what genitals or traditional gendered role they have? “Manwhore” = “Man” + “Whore”

→ Implies that whore is a gendered term. More than that, a feminine one, as it must be specified that a man is the whore. This is a term used especially in the EtM fandom to describe the “joke AU” originally created by AnniFlamma. In it, Odysseus seduces his way out of the obstacles of the Odyssey—specifically the wrath of Zeus for the murder of Helios’ sacred cows—by offering up his body, which is a form of sexual coercion. Sound familiar? Let’s go back to that line by Circe: “Want to save your men from the fire? / Show me that you're willing to burn”. The exact same situation unfolds here, with the exact same coercion, the exact same power imbalance.

The usage of these terms to describe Odysseus inherently equates him to femininity, and more than that ignores things such as sexual coercion (gods have inherent power over mortals, and in all instances Odysseus is subject to that power when sexually interacting with gods & goddesses). However, by equating him to femininity, fandom is not bucking gendered roles. It does not explore how a masculine man can be feminine. Instead, it forces him to take up a new gendered role: That of a woman in a patriarchy.

Physicality Reflecting Gendered Roles

Instead of following Homer’s original description of Odysseus (BkVIII:104-151 The Sports Contest)

“He’s a fine build in thighs and calves, with two strong arms, a stout neck, plenty of strength. Nor has he lost the power of youth, he is only wearied with suffering.”

Fandom instead makes him slight, thinly built. Shorter than all other characters he is paired with, from Penelope to Diomedes. It portrays him as a twink, in direct ignorance of the base text from which this character sprung (or, well, was first written down in. There’s oral histories that are older). Even the EtM specific interpretations, which are commonly based on Jorge Rivera-Herrans, have begun to morph to fit this physique so they might better conform to gendered roles. The “weak” one. The “strong” one. Penelope of Sparta who pegs her pathetic husband. Odysseus, her malewife who loves to be fucked. A “twink”, as we defined earlier, is a man who is perhaps physically more effeminate. Who embraces their more androgynous looks—bucking gendered norms. But what the EtM fandom does is take the sexual assault, open shows of emotion, and general use of his wits instead of strength… and instead puts him in the role of a woman. It forces him into a little gendered box. Not only that, it ascribes a weakness to the very femininity it could have engaged with. In every relationship Odysseus is put in, he’s always the one being penetrated. He’s the submissive one. He is physically weaker. His femininity is explored by this fandom solely through the eyes of the modern patriarchy, which sees men who have been assaulted and who show emotions as lesser, as women, as weak. Can masculine men not be sexually assaulted? Can men who top not cry? Can men who dominate not be the bottom? Can women not be feminine and strong? Can Odysseus not be feminine and strong? For the Epic: the Musical fandom, the answer to those questions is no. Odysseus being a submissive bottom is so prevalent in this fandom that it’s going untagged in AO3 ships, and more than that, dubious consent is going untagged in the fics which have one of the gods or goddesses in a relationship with Odysseus. This fandom is so obsessed with putting a man in a feminine role that it’s become a reflection of the modern patriarchal society we live in, complete with misogyny—because the counterpart to Odysseus is always a character in a masculine role, from Penelope (see “Warrior Penelope” AUs) to Zeus (who is a literal god and has complete control over every relationship he is in). It doesn’t matter that Penelope’s whole characterisation relies upon her use of her feminine role as hostess and beautiful Queen to control 108 suitors for years; when she is the counterpart to Odysseus, she is almost always the one who has the emotional onus of comforting Odysseus of his troubles. Where Odysseus is emotional, Penelope is stoic. Where Odysseus suffers, Penelope is in control. Feminine and masculine.

The perfect heterosexual relationship. It’s just a thin, thin veneer of queerness that this fandom is hiding behind.

Call to Action

What I want to do in this essay is strip away that veneer. This fandom needs to think critically for a moment about why Odysseus is the powerless submissive bottom to all of its relationships, and understand that underlying the excuse of “he’s just so good at it” is the expectation that assaulted people who show their sorrow are feminine. Feminine means Odysseus is less physically imposing, emotional, weak, pathetic; the one to be penetrated when sex is involved. He’s a subby little twink. A pathetic, sad wet cat. How many times have you heard some combination of those phrases when describing Odysseus?

Assigning Odysseus this role means that misogyny is perpetrated under the guise of queerness. Odysseus occupies a feminine gender role—and due to that occupation, he is then characterised as weak, physically and mentally. Have you ever thought about what that might mean to anyone under the trans umbrella—especially trans women? How his body must reflect femininity, and how that femininity must mean he is thin, pale, short. How his femininity means he must be the one being penetrated, the one being taken care of, infantilized…

And, in the case of Odysseus in particular, that’s just fucking sad. He’s called polytropos for a reason. Many tropes. If you’ve made it this far, then I’m glad to see you. Interrogate your own biases once in a while. Think critically about a character and their place in society. Odysseus, in his own ancient epic, is compared to a wife who weeps for her fallen husband in the face of her conquered city—but in the same book he’s described as a physically imposing man. He returns home and reclaims his position as king and husband… but he is most well-known to his friends as father of dear Telemachus.

Duality in gendered role, but more than that a spectrum, is possible. It’s needed. In the thousands-of-years-old epic Odysseus is already in the murky in-between of the gender binary enforced by the patriarchy. Why is the EtM fandom enforcing that binary once again onto its queer ships? Is that really Odysseus? Is that really exploring the fluidity of gender, as Homer does in his original epic?

Are you truly engaging with queerness?

---

If you liked this essay, then please tell me in the comments or reblogs! If you disliked this essay, do the same—but be prepared for me to ask questions. This isn’t a smear campaign, it’s an opening for discussion. A call to think a little deeper about fandom, its tropes, and how we might interrogate our personal biases… be they misogynistic or otherwise. I’ll be putting out more essays like this one every week or so, so stay tuned!

[tweetsongs]

i agree so much about making your blorbos pathetic but i do fear that many take this to mean 'make them more traditionally feminine/submissive' which genuinely hurts my soul. make your blorbos pathetic in interesting character-oriented ways. understand their neuroses and turn the dials up to eleven. juxtapose the parts of life they handle extremely well with the parts of their lives that make them eat shit. make them angry. make them cold. make them pave their own way to hell while building walls preventing them from seeing any other way. please i'm begging you no more pathetic as an euphemism for bottoming im gonna mclose it.

[blanchebees]

I'm looking for books about native american mythology but I'm having hard time finding them, especially written by natives so i would appreciate if i got some recommendations! 🙏

[squeaksterr]

reblog game tell me a girl character youre obsessed with (men you headcanon as women are not allowed)

[prompted-wordsmith]

ODYSSEUS IS NOT A SUBBY LITTLE TWINK

Or: an analysis of EtM fandom biases and internalised misogyny

What a title. I want to start this off by saying that this essay isn’t meant to attack shippers, or artists, or writers. This is a general analysis of Epic: the Musical fandom (henceforth referred to as “fandom” unless otherwise specified) biases through the lens of my current hyperfixation: Odysseus.

Let’s begin with a simple fact. Artists and writers within the wider Greek Mythos fandom, which encompasses all sorts of media—Homer’s works and their derivatives, such as Epic: the Musical, the Hades games by Supergiant, even Ulysses dies at Dawn by the Mechanisms—have a myriad of interpretations of Odysseus. It often comes down to which media you prefer, just as within the more academic world of Greek mythos you have those who pick and choose which theologian (Hesiod, Apollodorus, etc.),  or epic (the Thebaid, the Aeneid, the Odyssey, etc.) or play (Sophocles, Euripides, etc.) they prefer the characters and characterisation of. So what caused the mass conception of Odysseus as the submissive bottom in the gay relationships the EtM fandom ascribes to him? Why is he, here on Tumblr, often shown as a twink? To answer those questions, we have to first define a couple terms.

Defining Terms

Submissive (sub): in Bondage, Dominance, Sadism & Masochism (BSDM) communities, this refers to a partner that assumes a submissive role. However, it should be noted that this does not include a lack of agency or power. To define the word submissive itself, I’ve turned to the Cambridge dictionary:

A sub, in the context of shipping, is often used as interchangeable with another word: bottom. But these are two entirely separate terms, so let’s define that one, too. Bottom (bot): as in a sexual relationship, the partner which is being penetrated.

And you might be asking, “Smitty, why does it matter the definitions?” I’ll point you towards this lovely article put out by the SF Aids Foundation, which has a very pertinent quote:

“But here’s the thing: dominance and submission exist independently from physical positions. They operate on separate axes. Being dominant doesn’t automatically make someone a top, just as being submissive doesn’t make someone a bottom. These dynamics can manifest in countless ways, from gentle guidance to explicit direction, from warm encouragement to playful teasing.”

For tagging purposes here on tumblr, you might see the mashing of these two terms together into a new term, “subbot”, which refers to both the submissive and bottom roles a sexual partner assumes. 

I would like to re-emphasise that neither of these terms includes the lack of agency seen in non consensual or dubiously consensual relationships.

And, finally, if you’ve gotten this far? You probably know what a twink is, but for the sake of completeness and to make sure we’re all on the same page, let’s define it: Twink: a term used to describe a gay man that is often effeminate or otherwise defiant of traditional masculine gender norms; physically described as thin and slight, with little to no body hair.

I’ve taken this definition from the sources listed in the LGBTQIA+ wiki, which does expand on further. For the sake of brevity (Smitty says, writing hundreds of words about fandom tropes) I’ll just let you read the wiki yourself. Ok, we’ve got our definitions. Even made flash cards. We’re studied up, we’re ready. Finally, I’ll lay the thesis on you.

The Thesis

The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative. Wow. Much word. Let’s break it down.

The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative. Patriarchal values: we live in a patriarchy. A male-dominated society, which prioritises men over women in terms of social status. This leads to stereotypes such as “women are weak-willed” and “men must be strong.” By “values”, I’m referring to feminine and masculine roles which align with this patriarchy.

The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative. Onto relationships: the fandom is applying the patriarchal society it exists in to the relationships it’s shipping. In other words, those feminine and masculine roles, which are the two halves of a heterosexual relationship, are being projected onto relationships that the fandom ships. The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative. By ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects: Ignoring characterisation of both the source itself (Epic: the Musical) as well as what it’s derived from (Homer’s The Odyssey) to the ends of enforcing heterosexual roles. This includes what Odysseus looks like, i.e. physical appearance/characteristics, as well as personality, i.e. mental characteristics. The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative.

In order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative: Women, who occupy the feminine gender role in a patriarchy, are supposedly less physically imposing, emotional, weak, pathetic; the ones being penetrated when sex is involved. Men, who occupy the masculine gender role within a patriarchy, are supppsedly physically imposing, stoic, strong, in control; the ones doing the penetrating, when sex is involved. In other words, this is saying even gay ships within the fandom exhibit the same gender roles as a heterosexual relationship as enforced by the patriarchy.

Trends and Tropes

The prevailing trend in the EtM fandom is towards interpretations where Odysseus is shown to be slight, with little or no facial hair. In writing, he’s the bottom, and beyond that he’s submissive—but not as he would be in a healthy, well-negotiated BSDM relationship. These two terms (“bottom” and “sub”) are constantly conflated when it comes to Odysseus. To that end, he also has derogatory terms which essentially mean the same thing ascribed to him: malewife, manwhore, etc. These tropes exist. They’re popular, spawning literally hundreds of fanfics for one sexual position…

…And maybe tens of them for another.

That’s 2.3x the amount of tagged bottom Odysseus fanfics on AO3 versus tagged top Odysseus fanfics on AO3. I emphasise the tagged because, beyond the fanfics tagged in this manner, there are innumerable amounts untagged but which fit into these tropes where Odysseus is submissive and/or a bottom. Oftentimes it’s both, with a side of non-consent. The distinction is very murky, and that is the reason I defined the two at the beginning of this essay. Why is this idea so prevalent? Why are these two terms—bottom and sub—conflated so heavily for Odysseus in particular within the EtM fandom?

Source vs Derivative

In the original Odyssey, Odysseus is a sexual assault victim. I’m not going deeper into that statement because there are many people who have done many essays on that exact subject, and I urge you to find and read them (I recommend this one by dootznbootz about specifically Circe's assault). Odysseus is also a character who doesn’t shy from showing his emotions. To that end, I’ve chosen some snippets from Kline’s translation of the Odyssey simply for the accessibility of the text to my readers: Of his time on Calypso’s isle (BkV:43-91 Hermes visits Calypso)

“Of Odysseus there was no sign, since he sat wretched as ever on the shore, troubling his heart with tears and sighs of grief. There he could gaze out over the rolling waves, with streaming eyes.”

And when he is retelling his whole story to the Phaeacians (BkVII:240-297 Odysseus tells of his arrival)

“...the tenth night of darkness the gods washed me shore on Ogygia, where lives that dread goddess Calypso of the lovely tresses. She welcomes me to her home with kindness, fed me, and promised to make me ageless and immortal, but she never reached my heart. Seven whole years I stayed there, soaking the everlasting garments Calypso gave me with my tears. But when the eighth year came round, she urged me to go, because of some message from Zeus, or because her feelings had changed.”

And finally when Odysseus hears a bard sing of the fall of Troy (BkVIII:521-585 Alcinous questions Odysseus)

“And Odysseus’ heart melted, and tears poured from his eyes. He wept pitifully, as a woman weeps who throws herself on her husband’s dying body, fallen in front of his city and people, trying to ward off that evil moment from the city and his own children: watching him gasping for breath in dying, she clings to him and screams aloud, while behind her the enemy beat her back and shoulders with their spears: then she is led into captivity to endure a life of toil and suffering, her cheeks wasted pitifully with grief. He hid the falling tears from all except Alcinous, who, aware because he sat by him, noticed all, and heard him sighing deeply. At one he addressed the sea-faring Phaeacians: ‘Leaders and Counsellors of the Phaeacians, hear me, and let Demodocus still his ringing lyre, since his song fails to give pleasure to all alike. From the moment of our feast when our divine bard was inspired to sing, this stranger has never stopped his sad grieving, his heart must surely be overflowing with sorrow. Let the bard refrain, and let us enjoy ourselves, hosts and guest alike: that would be better. We prepared all this for the sake of a sacred stranger after all, this farewell and the gifts of friendship we give with love. To a man of any intelligence, a stranger, a suppliant, is dear as a brother.'”

He cries. Openly. Multiple times. And you might be asking, “Smitty, we’re talking about Epic: the Musical, not the Odyssey. Why are you bringing it up?” Within Epic: the Musical, certain scenes are given more leeway for interpretation—but the coercion of EtM Circe, for example, is still present and very real. The lyric which EtM Circe sings, “Want to save your men from the fire? / Show me that you're willing to burn” shows this the best. She is demanding sex in return for freeing his men from her spell. EtM Calypso, whom I will compare directly to the Odyssey snippets provided, still keeps Odysseus trapped for seven years upon her isle—even if you choose to ignore the following lyrics: [CALYPSO] Anyways, I've got all you could want here All you could need here Just you and me, my dear, my love for life Soon, into bed we'll climb and spend our time

[ODYSSEUS] I'm not your man

[CALYPSO] I'm what you want here, I'm what you need here Just you and me, my love in paradise Now 'til the end of time From here on out, you're mine, all mine

[ODYSSEUS] Hell no, I could kill you where you stand I'm no pet, I'm a married man

[CALYPSO] Oh handsome, you may try But last I checked, goddesses can't die

I’ve taken the liberty of bolding the lyrics which are particularly relevant to this point. EtM Calypso insists that Odysseus join her in bed—assumes it as a given—and when Odysseus refuses? She insists again. Calls him hers, as one might an object. When Odysseus resorts to threats to protect his person, Calypso replies that she cannot die… and then laughs. Now, I ask for you to go through a thought exercise with me. If this—

“Soon we’ll get into bed together, pretty, just you wait.” “No. I already have a partner.” “You’re still mine.” “Stop it—I have a knife! Back up!” “A knife won’t change how this ends. Haha!”

—Was a conversation between a man and a woman… who would you call the “masculine” person and who would you call the “feminine” person? The orange is the masculine, right? He’s threatening the feminine person (green) into sex. That’s what comes about in a patriarchy. The same thing is happening to Odysseus in the Odyssey happens to Odysseus in Epic: the Musical. With Calypso, with Circe, there is sexual coercion. And what does he do? Beg it to not happen and cry, as any victim of assault might in the immediate threat and in the aftermath, no matter their gender. He did so in the Odyssey, and he did so in the musical which is based off of it. No difference, there. This is all to say: for all intents and purposes, EtM Odysseus and his Odyssey counterpart experience similar scenarios. However, why is Epic: the Musical such a breeding ground for unhealthily submissive, bottom Odysseus?

Putting it All Together

These shows of emotion are one of the contributors to fandom ascribing him a submissive role. In the end, modern society demands of its men a lack of such a thing: call it what you will, ‘toxic masculinity’ or another phrase, but men who show such emotions are often called slurs (gay and its far ruder explicative), a “little girl”, which is in and of itself misogynistic, or otherwise degraded. They’re associated with someone who is penetrated (“gay”), and with femininity (“little girl”). The bucking of masculine gendered norms? Well that means a man is equated with the supposed weakness associated with femininity. This fandom has been a reflection of the patriarchal society we live in, because it does the exact same thing: associates being emotional, being the one who is assaulted, the one who is penetrated with being feminine—and in turn weakness of character. I mentioned earlier the use of terms such as “malewife” and “manwhore” to describe Odysseus. But let’s think critically about those for a minute: “Malewife” = “Male” + “Wife”

→ Attributes the feminine gendered term “wife” to someone submissive within a relationship. Does that mean women, wives, are inherently submissive? So much so that when a masculine person inhabits that role, we must put “male” in front of the word to denote what genitals or traditional gendered role they have? “Manwhore” = “Man” + “Whore”

→ Implies that whore is a gendered term. More than that, a feminine one, as it must be specified that a man is the whore. This is a term used especially in the EtM fandom to describe the “joke AU” originally created by AnniFlamma. In it, Odysseus seduces his way out of the obstacles of the Odyssey—specifically the wrath of Zeus for the murder of Helios’ sacred cows—by offering up his body, which is a form of sexual coercion. Sound familiar? Let’s go back to that line by Circe: “Want to save your men from the fire? / Show me that you're willing to burn”. The exact same situation unfolds here, with the exact same coercion, the exact same power imbalance.

The usage of these terms to describe Odysseus inherently equates him to femininity, and more than that ignores things such as sexual coercion (gods have inherent power over mortals, and in all instances Odysseus is subject to that power when sexually interacting with gods & goddesses). However, by equating him to femininity, fandom is not bucking gendered roles. It does not explore how a masculine man can be feminine. Instead, it forces him to take up a new gendered role: That of a woman in a patriarchy.

Physicality Reflecting Gendered Roles

Instead of following Homer’s original description of Odysseus (BkVIII:104-151 The Sports Contest)

“He’s a fine build in thighs and calves, with two strong arms, a stout neck, plenty of strength. Nor has he lost the power of youth, he is only wearied with suffering.”

Fandom instead makes him slight, thinly built. Shorter than all other characters he is paired with, from Penelope to Diomedes. It portrays him as a twink, in direct ignorance of the base text from which this character sprung (or, well, was first written down in. There’s oral histories that are older). Even the EtM specific interpretations, which are commonly based on Jorge Rivera-Herrans, have begun to morph to fit this physique so they might better conform to gendered roles. The “weak” one. The “strong” one. Penelope of Sparta who pegs her pathetic husband. Odysseus, her malewife who loves to be fucked. A “twink”, as we defined earlier, is a man who is perhaps physically more effeminate. Who embraces their more androgynous looks—bucking gendered norms. But what the EtM fandom does is take the sexual assault, open shows of emotion, and general use of his wits instead of strength… and instead puts him in the role of a woman. It forces him into a little gendered box. Not only that, it ascribes a weakness to the very femininity it could have engaged with. In every relationship Odysseus is put in, he’s always the one being penetrated. He’s the submissive one. He is physically weaker. His femininity is explored by this fandom solely through the eyes of the modern patriarchy, which sees men who have been assaulted and who show emotions as lesser, as women, as weak. Can masculine men not be sexually assaulted? Can men who top not cry? Can men who dominate not be the bottom? Can women not be feminine and strong? Can Odysseus not be feminine and strong? For the Epic: the Musical fandom, the answer to those questions is no. Odysseus being a submissive bottom is so prevalent in this fandom that it’s going untagged in AO3 ships, and more than that, dubious consent is going untagged in the fics which have one of the gods or goddesses in a relationship with Odysseus. This fandom is so obsessed with putting a man in a feminine role that it’s become a reflection of the modern patriarchal society we live in, complete with misogyny—because the counterpart to Odysseus is always a character in a masculine role, from Penelope (see “Warrior Penelope” AUs) to Zeus (who is a literal god and has complete control over every relationship he is in). It doesn’t matter that Penelope’s whole characterisation relies upon her use of her feminine role as hostess and beautiful Queen to control 108 suitors for years; when she is the counterpart to Odysseus, she is almost always the one who has the emotional onus of comforting Odysseus of his troubles. Where Odysseus is emotional, Penelope is stoic. Where Odysseus suffers, Penelope is in control. Feminine and masculine.

The perfect heterosexual relationship. It’s just a thin, thin veneer of queerness that this fandom is hiding behind.

Call to Action

What I want to do in this essay is strip away that veneer. This fandom needs to think critically for a moment about why Odysseus is the powerless submissive bottom to all of its relationships, and understand that underlying the excuse of “he’s just so good at it” is the expectation that assaulted people who show their sorrow are feminine. Feminine means Odysseus is less physically imposing, emotional, weak, pathetic; the one to be penetrated when sex is involved. He’s a subby little twink. A pathetic, sad wet cat. How many times have you heard some combination of those phrases when describing Odysseus?

Assigning Odysseus this role means that misogyny is perpetrated under the guise of queerness. Odysseus occupies a feminine gender role—and due to that occupation, he is then characterised as weak, physically and mentally. Have you ever thought about what that might mean to anyone under the trans umbrella—especially trans women? How his body must reflect femininity, and how that femininity must mean he is thin, pale, short. How his femininity means he must be the one being penetrated, the one being taken care of, infantilized…

And, in the case of Odysseus in particular, that’s just fucking sad. He’s called polytropos for a reason. Many tropes. If you’ve made it this far, then I’m glad to see you. Interrogate your own biases once in a while. Think critically about a character and their place in society. Odysseus, in his own ancient epic, is compared to a wife who weeps for her fallen husband in the face of her conquered city—but in the same book he’s described as a physically imposing man. He returns home and reclaims his position as king and husband… but he is most well-known to his friends as father of dear Telemachus.

Duality in gendered role, but more than that a spectrum, is possible. It’s needed. In the thousands-of-years-old epic Odysseus is already in the murky in-between of the gender binary enforced by the patriarchy. Why is the EtM fandom enforcing that binary once again onto its queer ships? Is that really Odysseus? Is that really exploring the fluidity of gender, as Homer does in his original epic?

Are you truly engaging with queerness?

---

If you liked this essay, then please tell me in the comments or reblogs! If you disliked this essay, do the same—but be prepared for me to ask questions. This isn’t a smear campaign, it’s an opening for discussion. A call to think a little deeper about fandom, its tropes, and how we might interrogate our personal biases… be they misogynistic or otherwise. I’ll be putting out more essays like this one every week or so, so stay tuned!

[2productive]

[songsofpenelope]

Thinking about your secretary x ceo odypen again (and like modern odypen in general) and I have two questions, would Odysseus ever take Penelope to a bdsm club/dungeon? Or like kink parties in general?

HE WOULD (and that's coming up in an upcoming fic in the series!)

[prompted-wordsmith]

Reminds me to write more for that actually...

[allthedrugsforcreativity]

"Just as the eagle swooped down from the crags -

- Odysseus will descend on his house and take revenge."

[warmfigure]

i am massively overdue for a very very good week where not a single bad thing happens and everything is easy

[unlettered-heathen]

reblog to give prev a very good week where not a single bad thing happens and everything is easy

[vor-leser]

menelaus but i put way too much effort into the design of his armour

[cherryhatter-deactivated2015072]

KICK THE CAN!

Let’s play the biggest game of kick the can on the internet.

To kick the can, reblog it. I wanna see how long this can go on for.

[visibun]

the oldest reblogs for this post that i can find are from january 2nd of 2013. this can has been getting kicked around tumblr for almost 13½ years now

[drtanner]

And yet somehow this is my first time kicking it!

[fforsythiaaa]

Once when I was in undergrad, someone described something as “problematic” in class and our professor was like, “That’s cool, but ‘problematic’ doesn’t really mean anything. It means that the thing you’re describing has a problem, and in and of itself that’s not bad. Art, especially, should always have problems, or else it’s not interesting and not art, either. It sounds like you’re trying to say that this is bad, but you don’t want to say ‘bad.’ Is that right?”

So from then on whenever one of us called something problematic, he would make us talk it out until we could name the “bad” thing we were hinting at. In this particular class, 7/10 it was some type of oppression, and the remainder was like, “I’m uncomfortable because this is very new/confusing/pushing boundaries that made me feel safe.”

Once we stopped calling things “problematic” and stopping at that, class got way more interesting and... we all had to say, like, “that’s racist” or “that’s misogynistic” or “ew capitalism gross” out loud, which a lot of us had never done in a classroom before. Or we had to be like, “Uhhh... I’m not sure what’s so bad?” and confront our own beliefs and that was maybe even more useful.

Anyway. Whenever I see the word problematic, I can’t help but think of this professor being like, “Good starting point, now let’s get specific.” I think when we have to commit to saying “that’s ___” it requires a lot more careful thought about the truth and impact and complexities of whatever we’re claiming. Sometimes there really is some bullshit afoot, and also sometimes it’s art, and it should be full of problems, because that’s what art is.

[beggars-opera]

I once saw an article put it this way: often "this is problematic" is used to shut down discussion of a thing, by casting a sweeping but vague judgement. But really if used at all it should start a discussion about what the problem is.

[olecap]

random sketches

[orteil42]

given the current climate this pride especially i feel i must mention that i love my trans friends, i stand with trans people in the fight against transphobic legislation and those who would enforce it, and this blog is not a good place for you to be if you do not vibe with that

[boatgrave-deactivated20250901]