You can't expect people to take you seriously if you're not providing any proof? If Will and El are twins and Joyce and Hopper are their bio parents, why don't any of them know about it and why haven't there been any hints about it? I'm not even trying to be rude here I just haven't seen any evidence. Let alone strong evidence
I've gotten a few confused asks about this theory and how it just doesn't make any sense..?
I'm not saying that I completely understand the ins and outs of how it works, in fact I'm still completely immersed in theorizing and not being certain of anything! Quite frankly, I don't understand it (how time works/the rules of the game), though I think that's necessary because otherwise everyone and their mother would have guessed this surprise by now if it was any more obvious than it already is.
I also just feel kind of bad about spoiling what could possibly be going down, especially bc this would clearly be a series long surprise.
I've been theorizing for months now with @shippingfangirl013 about this. It started with us sharing thoughts about Twelvegate and just sort of piecing together s4 lab scenes and then eventually going back to the beginning to see what we might have missed from this new lens, that being the possibility that Will is Twelve. And that's when we realized A LOT of stuff has been overlooked from the very beginning, which provides not only answers to certain questions we had, but also brings forth even more questions that we wouldn't have come up with, had we not looked back further into the details in the first place.
She has a bunch of posts that are severely underrated in regards to this whole theory, so I urge you all to check those out:
Twelvegate Theory: Drowning in the Quarry and Will & El (Part 1)
Twelve Actor Resemblance to Young Will Byers
Stranger Things S5 Conglomerate Twelvegate Theory (Part 1)
Conglomerate ST S5 Theory Parallels
Also be sure to keep an eye out because she has some really big brain analysis in the works that you dont want to miss. I can honestly say she plays a big role in why I feel fairly confident about this theory, because I myself didn't really believe it at first. But now, after everything I've seen, it's kind of hard not to.
Even if you don't like this the idea of this theory or just simply don't believe the evidence presented that you've seen thus far, at the very least looking at this could expand your ability to look further at other details on the show and even pick up on evidence of your own. I find that more often than not, knowing about the existence of certain overlooked details allows you to find even more overlooked details that others missed.
For the sake of your doubtful ask, and for anyone else who isn't even considering this theory because it seems too far fetched, I'm going to share some of my favorite unhinged evidence for whatever the hell gate we're calling this...
But first, here is some basic context for the chaos that follows.
Something important to note, is that we don't meet Hopper, El or the Byers the night that Will went missing. We only met Will and the party. Instead they saved the rest of the main character's introductions (his family, mind you) for the following day, after Will had gone missing. This also means they saved their introductions for AFTER the big power outage that happened that night right before he disappeared.
I find this interesting because this choice allowed them to make those introductions feel arguably 'starting point'/reset-like (like in a video game).
You'll also note there is a 'Pizza One' box in that first scene when the party is in Mike's basement playing their campaign, moments before that power outage. This could have been a hint that the very start of the pilot episode at the Wheelers may very well be the OG timeline, that we've been straying from ever since. And so let's say hypothetically, if we had met Hopper, El and the Byers BEFORE that power outage, whose to say their lives wouldn't have looked slightly different...?
The first time we are introduced to Hopper is in the scene directly after the opening credits, which was right after the scene of Will disappearing in the shed. Hopper is sleeping on the couch in his trailer, wearing both his daughter's blue bracelet and his watch. We also get 3 references to keys in this scene (a 2 ft long key decal in the literal opening shot). And if that's not enough, what follows is Hopper getting ready for work, putting a yellow pen in his pocket near a painting of an owl, before grabbing his keys and walking out the door.
The first time we are introduced to Joyce (the Byers), follows directly after the scene with Hopper, where Joyce just so happens to be looking everywhere for her keys, Where the hell are they?, followed by finding them on the couch, despite already looking there previously with no luck (interesting Hopper was sleeping on the couch with Willel symbols on his wrists only moments before this hmm). We then get a shot of Joyce showing concern over Will not eating breakfast, followed by scolding Jonathan for forgetting to wake Will up, adding I've told you this a thousand times, before she walks past an owl on the wall in the hallway and opens the door to another owl on the wall in Will's (unoccupied) room...
Let me just say, for the sake of this fictional family, I hope to god they haven't been through this thousands of times. Though I fear they might have. At least more than once...
There are a lot, A LOT of scenes that go down like this. As the show progresses, we get a lot of references to time passing and confusion and impatience and it almost feels like they themselves know deep down this isn't their first rodeo, and yet they're still playing along bc how exactly can one question their reality?.
The problem right now for me, is that I don't understand the rules of the game. How does time work? What even is the goal of the game (to win, I presume?)? Maybe Vecna's having to keep reseting the time loop, to get the results he wants, and over time he's getting closer and closer to the results he wants, but it will ultimately (predictably) lead to him failing once and for all in the final season, when all is inevitably revealed?
Hypothetically, if this is all some game/pocket universe Vecna has thrown our core characters into, essentially surrounding them with 'fakers', then how do we know what is/isn't real? Or I guess whether or not we're in a timeline/loop either closest to, or furthest away from the original timeline? That's why it's hard for me to go further in terms of definitively piecing everything together time wise. Not only that, but we also don't even know for sure what Vecna wants from Will and El, truly.
But I do think that a lot of the answers to the truth are hidden in plain sight.
If you're genuinely curious, I encourage you to rewatch the show for yourself to see if you can pick up on things! Be sure to keep an eye out for keys and owls in particular. Also, El's flashbacks of Mama/the rainbow room might prove to be important... like, literally slowing down and pausing and screenshooting every single frame level important...
Who knows, you might even stumble upon a completely different undiscovered theory in the process!
On that note, here is just a slice of my favorite evidence in regards to this theory, that will hopefully open your mind to the possibility:
When Hopper asks about Lonnie's whereabouts, Joyce insists TRUST ME HE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. They made sure to keep the keys on the wall OUT of the frame in those shots referencing Lonnie by name specifically. However, when the conversation circles back to Will, and then follows after with Joyce telling Hopper to find her son, the keys are once again visible in both of their shots.
This scene right here is pretty epic. We all interpret Hopper's investigative skills throughout the series as him just being good at his job. But I would argue this scene in particular gives off very intense deja vu. It's as if Hopper knows where to look, because he's done this before. It's as if he's getting a gut feeling in certain areas that actually could be close to the truth, because this is his thousandth time doing this (Jesus, for their sake, I hope that's not the case).
Still, Hopper showcases a lot of unbelievable detective work throughout the show, and I think it could very well be hinting at him drifting in and out of awareness over the fact that he has done this before, which allows him to make such incredible guesses that lead him to the answer sooner than he would have in any normal situation (and yet, never too close...)
Has this always been here? That's what Hopper asks about a dent in the wall. We interpret it as maybe Hopper trying to figure out if this could be connected to Will's disappearance. But what if it's more than that? What if it hasn't always been there? What if this is a glitch in the matrix of sorts, and he noticed that glitch, bc this isn't his first time doing this? (Also peep the owl that shows up at the very last second in the shot directly below, with Joyce and Hopper in the frame, just as he gets the urge to check the backyard...)
This scene... This fucking scene ya'll. It just doesn't make any sense. This is one of several scenes throughout the show that have so many unanswered questions. I think it's because something else is going on that weren't not supposed to understand yet. That shot with Hopper encased in a rainbow is cool and probably means something... Hopper intensely walking into the frame as he steps towards the shed, with the upside down horseshoe above the door also probably means something...
Hopper literally walks up straight to where Will was in the shed the night previous, bc he's just that good of a detective. Yeah, okay... Suddenly the light overhead is blinking dramatically, only to switch off completely, which leads Hopper's eyes to catch this makeshift fort in the corner of the shed. Before he even gets a good look at what he's seeing, he's interrupted by Callahan, pulling him out of his deja vu state, followed by the light switching back on instantly, as if the occurrence was all in his head.
This also happens a lot, where our main characters are being interrupted by other characters, only seconds before they were close to solving something. And I just find that interesting...
This one is kind of peak comedy because, all it's doing on the surface is implying that Joyce and Hopper have a romantic history, but it also sneakily involves Will in the joke, as evidence that they have been intimate... The Chief and her, they've screwed before huh? ...WILL! That a 'yeah' or did they...
To be honest, I was really doubtful about Joyce and Hopper being El and Will's biological parents at first, even despite believing twelvegate and the possibility of them being twins. And this doubt mostly came from the scenes we get with Terry aka El's 'Mama'.
Initially, I had convinced myself it would be too sad, considering how much backstory we got about Terry. But @shippingfangirl013 made me realize that there is something very off about these scenes with Terry, that I think kind of went over all of our heads.
First of all, Mama is essentially the equivalent to the name Papa, and so we should start by unpacking that. Why didn't the writers have El distance herself from that exact association she links to Brenner, by just having her call Terry 'mom' like most kids call their mother? It doesn't seem that serious on the surface, but again this is a choice the writers made... Maybe it's because they wanted the audience to subconsciously associate those two with each other (Papa/Mama)? Also peep Jim giving Will Byers vibes, all lit up by the sun like Jesus (or I guess... God?) below!
The main thing I want to talk about though, is that despite Terry's vegetative state, she's still managing to give us hints about how she feels and what she thinks, with very subtle micro-expressions.
When she meets Hopper and Joyce in s1, Terry looks completely unsurprised. You could say she looks the same all of the time, because of her vegetative state, and while I mostly agree, there are some outliers in the mix.
When Joyce mentions El being her daughter, what we get is a reaction shot of Terry dramatically closing her eyes for an extended period of time, almost like she's experiencing frustration over them woefully misunderstanding the truth behind what's going on.
And I think that's kind of the whole point of the vegetative state here, that perhaps if Terry could say what she wanted to say, it would give away the truth that has been hidden all along, AKA Joyce and Hopper are El and Will's true parents. When Joyce then mentions her missing son, showing Terry a picture of him, this woman LITERALLY turns her head to the right, looking straight up annoyed... Why? Why would she do that unless this is her ?/? time meeting them, hearing this same old silly charade?..
But then here... THIS moment when Hopper asks about Brenner and Terry's relationship with him, that's when it gets interesting. Terry doesn't look exhausted over their ignorance anymore like she seemed to be in the moments previous. Now, she's back to her stare of nothing, and yet seeing this in contrast to her micro-expressions, almost adds a new layer to what this could possibly mean... Perhaps this could be hinting that Hopper is a lot closer to the truth than he realizes, warranting a knowing look from Terry, with her almost impressed, thinking Damn Jim, maybe you'll figure it out this time and I can finally be released from this hell...
This might seem like a reach to assume Brenner and Terry had any sort of relation beyond her being a lab volunteer, but something I think you might be interested in knowing, is that Terry has a little collection of Bonsai tree books beside her chair... Bonsai... does that remind you of anyone...? (If you check out those posts by @shippingfangirl013, you might know what i'm referring to...)
The fact that Hopper even mentions Brenner and Terry's presumed connection to him is just one other example of Hopper subconsciously picking up on things he discovered in previous loops that are close to the TRUE truth, allowing him to narrow things down quicker this time around, without needing to take all the steps to get to that point.
An owl behind both Joyce and Hopper here, while they talk about what allegedly happened to Terry and her daughter Jane.
And there you have it folks, the acknowledgment that the truth could have been covered up, the moment Hopper stands in front of the owl artwork (literally covering it up). Owls, which have been tied more than anyone else to Hopper, Joyce, Will and El (tying them together?).? Also the crib between them... Nothing to see here.
This one is pretty self explanatory. We even get a parallel to this in s4 with El AND Will, though next time they'll confirm Hopper's role in the equation. So, be ready for that...
These scenes are so important to this theory because despite them all being separated (who knows how many times now), they have this epic finale of coming together. We get these really heartfelt scenes with El and Joyce and Hopper, Will and El, and then Will and Joyce and Hopper, and it's all very emotional and just so much deeper knowing that the truth could be that they're all tied to each other more than we (or even them) realize.
11 & 12 between the two hands on the clock, in a moment that parallels X-Men and also the lab massacre (which presumably had both 11 and 12 in attendance...). Mike calling out to El emotionally the moment that Joyce and Hopper are reunited with Will. My heart can't take it!!!
Someone actually noticed this shot of Hopper recently, I can't remember who! But it made me want to go back to see what shot is right before it. And low and behold, it follows directly after a shot of the Byers family reuniting. Kind of interesting they made the choice to have this shot right afterwards, of Hopper sitting next to Ted (aka a dad), while looking lost in thought as he stressfully bites his nails, with his arm sporting his daughter's blue bracelet...
Not suspicious at all. That creepy shadow behind Owens as he makes an almost knowing comment about Joyce and Hopper being 'Mom and Pop', followed by Hopper looking like he's missing something...
And for this scene to follow shortly after? Hopper literally acknowledging Owens whose waving at him politely, and yet choosing to not wave back at him?... He KNOWS something is off, but he just can't quite put his finger on it...
As you probably know, most of the scenes with the birthday mug in Mike's basement involve either El (in s1) or Will (in s2-3), which is interesting considering the other few notable birthday references we get in the show, including this really cryptic sequence above, involve Joyce and Hopper...
Now, if you still didn't believe me about Terry's behavior being off, I think this piece of evidence might help support our claims a little bit more for you to consider. Because, why, WHY when El approaches Terry in the void and says I'm home, is Terry's response No..? Why would that even make any sense? Why would El's biological mom say No to her missing daughter implying that she is her family? Unless, she's not of course...?
Something interesting about the flashbacks that Terry shows El, is that they're very sporadic and hard to understand. Not only that, but we STILL get callbacks to these memories heavily even in s4, which tells me there is still something there that has yet to be picked up on, by both the audience and El herself, which is why they keep resurfacing in different forms. My favorite moment out of the s2 flashbacks though is probably this moment where it looks like a baby is born, only for Brenner to look back, like there's more to come (another baby?? TWINS?). But this type of twin imagery, only gets stronger in s3-4...
After 2 seasons of building up this meeting of these two characters who have been mirroring each other since the very beginning, here we are... Also, why even hold back for so long in introducing them? Maybe because them finally interacting properly is going to cause some things to resurface... And you definitely don't want to overlook these shots of Hopper and Joyce in Melvald's with two baby's in between them, followed by a shot of keys... Hmmmm.
Remember when I said to pay attention to the Terry/Lab flashbacks El experiences over the seasons?
Well this particular flashback below comes from 3x06: E Plurbius Unum aka the episode that was originally titled The Birthday, might prove to be important...
Jonathan and Will in a scene prior to El's flashback, has them situated interestingly between this Lucky Charms box and this Spill & Spell game, which is then followed by this scene with El experiencing flashbacks... And...
Rainbow? Lucky (Upside down horse shoe...) Enter flashback
I'm not going to be able to show each frame of this flashback, because in total there are over 30 different quick images shown and repeated...
And so, If you want to find out why this is the strongest piece of evidence for Willel twins in my opinion (brought to you by @shippingfangirl013's big brain), go back and rewatch to see how many times they show the image of baby El and young El in the rainbow room... Also take note of how shots of Kali (008) are interspersed consistently within this flashback, aka a character that is known for having powers to make people invisible, and to also make people see things that aren't actually happening...
Here's that parallel I mentioned earlier making a return, but instead tying El (and arguably Will) to Hopper being their biological father. Also peep El's bracelet and Will's watch being prominent in a lot of their shots together throughout s4, now that they share the screen a lot more.
The Wright Bros...
No, but seriously, Willel's bracelet and watch mirroring each other often in their scenes together, and by association also paralleling Hopper wearing one of each, dramatically showcased in his introduction to the series, can be something so personal to me...
THEY'RE TWINS YOUR HONOR!
This one really goes off. A car passes by a couple times during this flashback El has (IN S4), causing a shadow to cast behind Will, almost creating this duplicate-like effect... This is literally happening while El is having a flashback to her 'birth mother', while staring at a family (with their faces warn out/blurred) on a billboard, with an arrow pointing towards where Will, aka her twin, is standing to the right of her...
This one below has gotta be my favorite though. And it's because I literally remember watching this scene the first time and being confused?
Tbh, that's when you know something is more complex than it appears. Whenever something feels off within the context provided in the moment, it's probably because there's something deeper going on and there are multiple meanings at play. This means they're using this small moment as an opportunity to provide dual meaning in plain sight, that we wont understand the dual meaning of until later on down the line.
Are you ready..
Hmmm. I wonder what this could possibly be alluding to? Could it perhaps be the writers hinting at Hopper unintentionally projecting his own situation onto Dmitri? Is it possible who Hopper believes to be his child (daughter... son(s?)?) and his (ex)wife, are not actually who he and everyone thinks they are...?
Well. There you have it! These are just some of the many, many hints hiding in the details that point to the possibility of the Byers actually all being, Hoppers...?
For now, this is just a theory! So even though it's cool and there is a serious amount of evidence pointing to it, it will most definitely continue to transform and look different over time, the more we look deeper and discover more. Nothing is set in stone, for now it's all just theories and speculation.
Again, if you're curious about what else there is out there in regards to this theory and other possibilities surrounding it, please follow and check out @shippingfangirl013 posts! She was way more on board with this theory than me in the beginning and arguably still is, because I do still experience occasional doubt about it, for sure.! And so without her I would not have come to half of these conclusions! I look forward to you guys seeing other stuff she's discovered bc seriously... Her poor storage ya'll.
And also, if you're interested in the time-loop aspect specifically in regards to this, I encourage you to check out two recent posts I did about this. Part I actually starts with those first scenes introducing Hopper and the Byers and how other scenes later in the show parallel it. VERY VERY cool stuff, and tbh if you've made it this far, I think you'll be intrigued...
I’m undecided on this theory, but I LOVE posts like this that ask us to re-examine what we’ve already seen in the show. I agree there’s a strong possibility that, no matter the details, we’ve been seeing characters in multiple timelines already up to this point and/or re-experiencing events that occurred in related timelines/multiverses. (What is WITH all the key and owl imagery?? Random aside: IDK how much of an influence Twin Peaks is on the show, but the owls are reminding me of “The owls are not what they seem” and their implied relationship with the spirit world/its observation of the characters...)
Some additional details that came to mind as I read your post:
- The picture of Brenner and Terry that El finds in the cabin in S2. They were framed walking side-by-side, reminiscent of the framing of scenes with Brenner and Frazier. To me it always raised the possibility that it was a hint at a more collaborative relationship than simply scientist-test subject.
- The scene right after the pool in S1, when Joyce insists on going with Hopper to find Will in the UD. (”He’s MY son, Hop. My son.”) While it’s still in-character for Hopper to want to go alone regardless (and for Joyce to insist), that scene would *definitely* stick out on a rewatch with your proposed twist.
- The scene where Hopper wakes up after breaking into the lab in S1, where he’s meant to infer he blacked out on substances and can’t trust his memory of what happened - could it be setting a precedent for re-framing our opening shot of him in S1 on a rewatch?
To me the major roadblock in this theory is the character development that El has shown in the series that revolves around her mother--seems like it would be difficult for the writers to re-write that part of her history and still have it feel satisfying. I’m also emotionally invested in the found-family and love-after-loss aspects of Hopper’s and El’s arcs, and I think those resonate strongly with enough viewers that IMO it would be difficult to alter their storylines successfully with a twist like this. But as I said...I love re-examining what we “know”!
(More info here on Marty’s watch if you want to see for yourself--noting also the correction made in the comments below about the CA-50 vs. the CA-53W discussed in the article:
Note that while Mike and Will have similar watches, Will’s is actually a Qbert game watch like this one:
Byler undertones to the Marty McFly homages? When it remains to be seen how all the time references are related to the resolution of the series as a whole? Don’t know about you, but that’s giving me some Main Couple energy...
Currently driving me crazy: we have a show with constant time references, homages to Back to the Future, significant things happening around 8:15 p.m. (like Will’s disappearance), meta-references to 8:15 like Will’s disappearance happening at 00:08:15 in 1x01...
So what do we find at the timestamp that would correspond to 8:15 p.m., if you started the whole series at midnight?
That would be 20 hours, 15 minutes, 0 seconds into the series’ runtime: doing a little math, that’s 3x07 at 00:13:58 (41:52 remaining on the Netflix counter for the episode).
...which is...
If that’s a coincidence, it’s a hell of a coincidence.
You’re so right and this is wrecking me rn. Not to mention, the second one is right after the scene where Joyce also barely sleeps.
I was curious and went and got screencaps directly from Netflix + a few more for comparison. You can really see a difference.
...and then I also ended up noticing how much more brightly Mike’s face is suddenly lit during the part of the scene when he’s talking to Will.
gonna go sob in the corner now
Here it is! I am sorry that I wasn't able to put it out for ST Day this year but it's finally here. It's still a gift in some way so happy late ST Day!
The basic concept comes from me watching the TV show DARK that's on Netflix and I wanted to replicate it's intro, that you can easily find on the internet, because I thought it could be interesting. I don't need to tell you what is the music in this, you will recognize it. 😉
Here we go.
(Sorry for the low quality, Tumblr only allows a certain amount of megabytes but still I hope it won't cause problem for you, enjoy!)
byler has to be canon because love is what’ll defeat henry’s hatred, right?
how could they write a character like mike who is so full of hope and passion and love, who can only really be understood when you look at the ways he loves the people around him, flaws and all, and not pair him with the boy he loves more than anything? he has literally discovered new worlds just to bring him home because he is the best part of his life and he loves him so thoroughly and so wholly that will was able to overcome battles that seemed impossible.
how could they write a character like will who has loved even the things that scare him, even the things he should hate, because at his core he is someone who loves and cares and gives, gives, gives and not let him finally have the one thing he wants more than anything else? he’s survived the worst the world has to offer because mike has been there to give him another reason to fight and yet will loves him so much that he would sacrifice all of that if it meant mike got to be happy.
how could you write two characters built out of love for the people around them, for the world even as it hurts, and love for each other that runs so deep it fills every memory, every crevice of their lives just as it fills their veins and keeps their hearts beating and not let them finally, finally have each other?
how could you write love like that and not use it to kill hatred?
Picked up the Byler California limited edition vinyl from Target! Not Mike being in front of the closet with the one way sign above him, and the rainbow right below him on the inside.
In the scene in 4:01 where Dustin and Mike are looking for a D&D sub, the song “Play With Me” by Extreme plays right after Dustin hangs up the phone:
I think others have noted how the song itself is anachronistic for 1986, seeing as it was released in 1989. This would suggest it has additional importance as a song selection, since they’re usually careful about these details.
I also find it *very* interesting that the guitar solo section of this song was also featured in a scene of the movie Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure (1989). If you haven’t seen it, Bill and Ted are high school students on the verge of failing out of school when they are contacted by a man from the future, who tells them that the future of world peace depends upon their ability to pass their history project. (This is because passing school allows them to stay together to work on their music, which is destined to solve all the world’s problems.) Using a time-traveling phone booth, they travel across human history to temporarily capture famous historical figures to be involved in their presentation. At one point, several of them end up at the local mall and mayhem ensues ("Play With Me” starts at 0:49):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8UGAbAPPkk
Why I think it could be an intentional reference:
The song wasn’t released yet in 1986, as noted above, yet they chose to use it in ST (and I believe it’s the only S4 song like this, but correct me if I’m wrong). While the lyrics “do you wanna play with me” are obviously relevant for Mike and Dustin’s scenes here, I think there might be more to this, because...
The song being “out of place” in time for 1986 could relate to the time-traveling elements of the plot of BTEE (...and ST?...whatever’s going on, we know that specific times/dates have been emphasized in ST, there’s lots of clock imagery/etc., and we already have direct Back to the Future references in ST)
“Play With Me” is used very memorably in BTEE - not only is it during one of the most chaotic scenes in the movie, but it’s used diagetically (meaning characters in the BTEE universe hear it) as a time-traveling Beethoven experiments with musical equipment in the mall
BTEE is a popular 80s movie, so it wouldn’t be an obscure reference for a lot of the audience of ST (and if there’s more to this connection in S5, it would fit in with the 80s nostalgia of ST)
When “Play With Me” is used in ST, it starts playing during the shot of the phone, and the use of the phone is integral and iconic in the time travel in BTEE
Phones in ST appear linked to several lingering mysteries (how did Will call Joyce from the UD? Why couldn’t Mike get through to the Byers family in California even before Joyce started her new job? Why does Joyce get mysterious phone calls in S2? How and why is electricity connected with UD-related phenomena?)
Other similarities include:
high-school-aged unlikely heroes in both stories
themes of “saving the world”
this electrical storm imagery:
(above: electrical disturbances in stormy clouds before the arrival of the time-traveling phone booth. Could be coincidence, but I see some similarity with Mind Flayer/UD imagery.)
this line--probably nothing but I couldn’t leave it out:
Right as Bill and Ted watch their future selves arrive in the time-traveling phone booth for the first time...
...Ted says, “Strange things are afoot at the Circle K.”
What I’m wondering now:
Could this reference support the idea that ST characters will be interacting with their own S1-4 timelines in S5? Aside from other ST-related reasons we’ve had to wonder about this possibility, Bill and Ted’s story includes scenes of them interacting with themselves in their current timeline as well as in the past. They’re seen giving their previous selves advice or placing items in convenient locations so that their plan can succeed.
How does this possibility relate, if at all, to the fact that the UD was “frozen in time” on Nov. 6th, 1983? There are no explicitly stated alternate dimensions in BTEE, but if Bill and Ted had failed, they would have ended up in a different timeline, and this would have created a paradox. Could our characters be in a similar situation? How are time and alternate dimensions related in ST?
Is it significant that Mike is also shown in a phone booth in S4? (In the Nevada desert calling NINA.) If ST5 builds on BTEE references, are these scenes foreshadowing S5 roles for Mike and Dustin in particular, or the Party as a whole?
I am not attending byler week and i was very sad, so i wanted to make up for it with this one which celebrates stranger things day a bit and confirms the importance of will's painting! What could be better than admiring the painting embraced in a cuddly way on the bed in your own room with the artist?
just had a crazy thought about Vecna and the new title.
could “The Crawl” possibly be related to the concept of a web crawler?
A web crawler is a type of software that basically combs the internet to save information from current versions of websites so that they can be found on a search engine like Google. To make the process more efficient, the software will typically also find any links on those pages, follow them, save information from those, and repeat until there is a database of as many websites as possible.
here’s a little more info:
We got a glimpse in S4 of how Vecna was searching through Hawkins residents to find his victims, but we don’t have all the information about how this works. Does he have to see what they’re doing in real time when he chooses to view them, make an informed guess based on what he sees, and then dig deeper into someone’s mind? Or does he have the energy/power to learn deeply about each person’s memories and trauma before trying to focus on a few? Is there a limit to how many people he can keep tabs on at once? Can he mass-acquire updates to people’s memories/thoughts/feelings with a single sweep, or does he have to spend time and energy looking at people one at a time?
...more importantly, no matter how he looks into people’s minds, could the spread of the UD into Hawkins make his mind-reading process more energy-efficient for him, allowing him to use his strength more fully?
What if Vecna’s goal in opening the gates was to create/improve a method of “people crawling” (attempting to keep a database of everyone’s memories, thoughts, and feelings that he could search in more detail at will like a personal psychic Hawkins Google)? Maybe the vines--which we know are connected to the hivemind and which literally crawl/slither--are related to this process, which could make sense with one meaning of “The Crawl.” He would have some good motives to improve his psychic read on Hawkins residents after the events of S4. Maybe he could be even more confident that he can stay ahead of any plans to thwart him, if he has a more efficient psychic updating system. Maybe he could assess larger trends in morale or spot potentially threatening people/groups, and target attacks from UD creatures to make the most impact. (Scary.)
And, in our metaphor, since web crawlers search pages for links to find additional pages, maybe this hivemind Hawkins Crawler could search people for their relationships to others, or take advantage somehow of their love and connection. The thought of Vecna trying to use our characters’ bonds with each other against them would seem in-character to me, given his S4 temporary defeat, his deep-rooted resentment of other people, and maybe especially Will’s escape from his control in S2 as a result of his loving relationships.
If any of this is on the right track, it’s worth noting that the first web crawler (from what I can find) wasn’t introduced in 1993. This would seem to limit the relevance of a metaphor like a web crawler for our characters. However, I’ve thought it was interesting how Suzie brought up the internet in S4 and how it would “change the world.” (Fun reference for us in 2022, or also foreshadowing?) There’s even a track on the S4 soundtrack called, “What’s the Internet?”, adding more emphasis. I think these could be hints that this subject will come up again in S5. Also, there will be a time skip at some point of undetermined length that could bring us closer to when crawler technology was being discussed or developed (so closer to when someone like Suzie might have a good way to understand Vecna’s system through a metaphor like this, which could be earlier than 1993). We have science genius characters and military interest in the situation in Hawkins. We’re also a modern audience watching the show with more context to understand internet metaphors than most of our characters would initially have.
I could also see this concept as being one that would draw together 1) nerdy genius (maybe with a dash of Cold War tension?), 2) Will’s connection to the hivemind/Vecna, and 3) El’s psychic abilities as they attempt to understand it, game Vecna’s system, and disable it. All with a term (”crawl”) that could double as a relevant D&D concept.
Maybe a reach? But I’m intrigued.
Fwiw, the Duffers mentioned in an interview that Steve’s “crawling backwards” story was based on a story about themselves as babies...so I don’t think they’d easily forget that association between the S4 script and the new episode title.
I love the D&D and UD-related theories cropping up for “The Crawl,” and I think it’s possible that the title could be thematically relevant in multiple ways in the episode...
...and I can also think of certain characters who might be well-served by a (metaphorical) thump on the head to get them self-reflecting and moving in a direction more aligned with what would make them truly happy...
“Boyfriend material.” As in...someone suitable to become someone’s boyfriend. Date-able. Not someone they’re dating yet but hopefully in the future. So sneaky of them.
and they dont stop coming and they dont stop coming and they dont stop coming and they dont stop coming and they dont stop coming and they dont stop coming and they dont stop coming and they dont stop coming and th
...to those who love so fiercely they would go to the ends of the earth and beyond, no matter the risk, for someone they care about.
...to those who are discovering their own differences, or who are living with the fear of how the rest of the world might react to them while they find the courage to be themselves.
...to those who unconditionally embrace others’ differences in the face of judgment or discrimination, valuing love over any consequences.
...to those who believe so much in a story like this that they devote countless hours of their artistic talent to making it a reality.
...to those who see themselves in the characters on this show, who love a story well told, and who can’t wait to find out more about Season 5.
--sincerely, a grateful fan
people who think will byers hates himself for being gay when will byers is one of the very few characters on the show that has refused to change himself to fit anyone else's idea of what he should be despite the fact that people, including his own father, have been harassing, bullying, and abusing him for it literally his entire fucking life are just...... so weird.
will's entire POINT is that he will survive and brave whatever you throw his way against all odds and come out on the other side of it still clutching on to his sense of self and hope that tomorrow will be a better day. the entire point of his character is that he loves what he loves without apology or shame.
he sings "that weird song he loves" in the middle of hell because it reminds him of his brother and offers him comfort in a place where there is none. he creates art because he loves it and doesn't care if it isn't something boys do, then he gifts it to his friends because he loves them and wants them to know it, too. he loves dnd and writes campaigns and dresses up for them because they bring him joy and he just wants to spend time with his friends even if they think they're "too cool" for it now.
he knows that sometimes it's harder than it should be to be gay in a homophobic society and has been harassed for that literally his entire fucking life it's LITERALLY how they introduce him to us not even twenty minutes into this fucking show and YET !!!!!!! he doesn't back away from that. ever.
he gets picked on for his clothes, but he doesn't change them. he gets called names, but he doesn't make any attempt to conform. his best friend, the boy that he's in love with and his very first friend ever, tells him it isn't his fault that he doesn't like girls and shamefully asks him if he really thought they were going to play games together in his basement for the rest of their lives and never get girlfriends, and what does will do?
he says yeah. i guess i did. i really did.
will faces all of that and goes to a new place where he has the golden opportunity of a clean slate, and what does he do? when assigned to do a presentation on his hero... he picks alan turing of all people. and when his brother later on tells him that he loves him no matter what, essentially giving him the It's Okay To Be Gay I Love You So Much And Always Will talk, still there is no denial on will's part here either.
will has NEVER, EVER denied being gay. he has NEVER tried to change that part of himself. he has ALWAYS stood tall and braved another day even when it was scary and hard. he has ALWAYS remained true to himself even though that has only ever made his life that much harder.
he said that sometimes he feels like a mistake for being so different from other people, but that being loved and accepted makes him feel like he isn't one at all and like he's better for being different and that gives him the courage to fight on.
literally what the fuck are you guys on about when you talk about will being self-hating for being gay. where is the canonical evidence for that? and more than that, why are you so keen on throwing away all of his acts of bravery and the sheer fucking strength of character that he's had since the very beginning? it would've been so much easier for him to conform, to be the "man" that everyone has always pushed him to be, but he doesn't ever do that. he stays true to himself no matter what. so, again, where the hell are these self-hating receipts?!
Mmmm okay, but multiplicity of truth is freeing. (That’s a quote from Alok V Menon btw. Or, I’m paraphrasing, but it’s pretty close.)
Yes absoLUTELY I agree to a T with everything you’ve said here. Fuck yeah. You’re right and you should say it.
And at the same time, Will canonically sobbed and said that when you’re different sometimes you feel like a mistake. He sobbed when he understood that Jonathan would still love him no matter what.
Self-hatred in my experience isn’t actually hatred of self. And it’s not an organic thing that would develop in a vacuum. Rather, it’s a social thing - it’s understanding that others will view you through a lens of stigma and they will hate you and shame you and ostracize you for being who you are. So it’s more about carrying that shame around - while simultaneously doing what you were going to do anyway (covertly for safety) because it’s who you are and you almost can’t not.
Given a community that loves him as he is (which he has! And he’ll see that more clearly in S5 as well), Will will be able to be himself more freely and he will be able to rid himself from some of the shackles of shame and the self-hatred/self-suppression that has been taught to him by society (that he has needed to carry to survive). He understands that he can’t talk about who he is openly because he will experience emotional violence or could even experience physical violence.
But soon he will build micro community. His family - Jonathan. Joyce, El, Hopper. The party. Mike. And a massive part of his self-sabotage will become unnecessary. And I can’t fucking wait for that - he deserves it so hardcore
he did sob, yes, but is that pertinent? don't we sometimes sob because we're overwhelmed, stressed, scared, or even happy? how do we know that was because of self-hatred? i think sobbing is a rather appropriate response when one decides to repackage their feelings for their best friend and the painting they've spent so much time on and care so much about as being wholly their sister's. i think it's also an appropriate response when someone you love happens to see you for who you really are despite all of your tireless hiding and tells you they love you unconditionally.
the duffers said that will wants to make himself understood, he wants to get this off his chest to those that he cares about. jonathan sees it and responds to it when they're alone, but mike doesn't because he doesn't understand. there is no one way to be or experience anything, but this is a character in a story and i personally just don't feel like those desires and his actions line up with someone who is experiencing shame. will is already a reserved character and we've seen him be ashamed or embarrassed of things before, like the mind flayer for instance, but he doesn't exhibit those behaviors now with this. he behaves more like someone that doesn't think his "crush" could ever return his feelings, which is in part why he pushes mike towards eleven. he doesn't tell mike, because he thinks he has no chance whatsoever. noah even says that himself, too, that his role this season was to essentially play someone in love with their best friend. if will is already such a sensitive and reserved character, would it really be like him to want to and unpromptedly divulge that which brings him shame or that which he hates?
i'm not saying that will is an out and proud lgbt icon strutting around in rainbow everything, not even in the safety of his mind. i also don't think that's realistic or accurate lol. i do, however, believe there's a difference between navigating a dangerous society and actually internalizing their hatred and turning it on yourself. given his actions throughout the show, i just don't feel like he holds that hate for himself or his sexuality. if he did, i struggle to understand then why he would lean into that part of himself more openly in an environment where he doesn't have to be the local fairy that got hate-crimed. i struggle to understand why he would want to tell mike, per the creators of this story, if that was something he was ashamed of. will has hidden things before. if he wanted to hide this, why hasn't he?
i guess i just feel like will being covert, aka being sensible and not suicidal, isn't a result of hatred that he's internalized in the I Hate Myself For Being Gay</3 way that this post was about. it's just survival instinct and wanting to live, no? that doesn't mean that he's ashamed of himself; it just means he has to play by society's rules if he wants to participate in it, just as everyone else does even if their rules are different. at the end of the day, he wants to love and be loved for who he is. he has never tried to tame that or snuff it out like some other characters (looking at you, mike) have. he lives as true to himself as he can in a society that can and would kill him for it if they had proof, seeing as how the people of hawkins thought his death/disappearance was a hatecrime. if he did actually hate that part of himself, then why would he honor it as much as he has even with all the pain it has and continues to cause him?
maybe we're just having a philosophical disagreement or i've misunderstood you, but i just have A Lot of feelings about how people mischaracterize (in my opinion) his bravery and strength as shame. the fact that he continues to be as he is without apology for it is an act of bravery that he commits every single day. just because he isn't throwing people around with his mind or shooting a gun doesn't mean that he isn't as brave and strong as some other characters. he fights every single day; it just looks different than everyone else's fight. and while shame is undoubtedly a social construct that obviously does not exist or arise in a vacuum, it feels unfair to say that people doing what they have to do to be safe and survive is a result of shame or hate turned inward In The Way That This Post Was Referencing. society needs shame, shame enforces the rules, and we need to abide by the rules if we want to live, but that doesn't mean that we have to believe in or accept that shame. people not endangering themselves and remaining covert isn't always due to shame, the same way that not everyone that's "in the closet" is in there because they're scared or not proud of their sexuality. everyone has their reasons and i just don't believe that will's are due to that. it isn't safe for him to be out as some people are today. that doesn't mean that he hates himself all the time for being gay. will's struggle has always been with how other people treat him: in season one he's bullied, in season two he's babied, in season three he's ignored, and in season four... well... he feels like his love is unrequited and reiterates that he's different as he has in past seasons, but at least he has his best friend that doesn't make him feel like a mistake at all and gives him the courage to fight on as well as his brother, so not all is lost. shame is a social construct, but i don't think he's the character to look to for internalized homophobia.
I think you and @tsugarubecker both make some great points. The way I see it, Will and Mike both deal with internalized homophobia, but it manifests itself differently because of the visibility of their queerness and how that has shaped their self-identities (since I agree the social aspect is very relevant in feeling shame). I interpret these different challenges to take the form of:
Will: Changing myself isn’t an option, so I’m always going to be a “freak.” (As he grows, he learns: being a “freak” can be a good thing.)
Mike: I have to hide this part of myself because it’s wrong, and then I can learn to be “normal.” (As he grows, he learns: acknowledging that part of himself is the only way he can truly be happy.)
IMO Will initially felt he had no option but to be himself, because he learned from a young age that other people will see his queerness no matter what he does. Lonnie and the bullies derided him for it before he probably even understood it himself. He resigned himself to being a “freak” even when he saw that as a negative label.
BUT that earlier resignation doesn’t detract in any way from the strength he shows every day by making the choice to be himself. He’s even stronger for choosing it, and we love him for it. He’s actively fighting to maintain a positive self-identity and reject the pressure to feel shame or fear while doing what he wants, and that takes so much bravery.
So by S4, I don’t think Will hates himself for being gay, in the sense that he’s accepted it within himself…but he could still easily be haunted by the threat that others’ reactions to it could destroy his relationships, because of his early experiences. He’s had people in his life show him what appears to him to be unconditional love (Joyce, Jonathan, and Mike in particular), and that gives him “the courage to fight on”; that support (from Jonathan in particular) is a big reason why I think he’s farther along in accepting his queerness than Mike is. And yet, he’s never had a direct confirmation that his queerness is included in that unconditional love. We’ve never seen him have a positive conversation specifically about being gay, or had any IRL gay role models. Jonathan came the closest to having a conversation like this with him, and finally getting the relief of that acknowledgement is why I think we saw him get so emotional. He still probably carries the scars of his old wounds, giving him extra baggage and fear to deal with in the face of any relationship difficulties. He doesn’t yet have the security that comes from being out to the people who love him the most, and from knowing for certain that this Unmentionable, supposedly shameful part of himself is not going to drive his loved ones away from him. But it won’t, and I can’t wait to see him get that acceptance.
