coming out of the tags to say that some of us have been saying this for years and have been called all manner of degenerates, perverts, and pedophiles over it, and we really deserve an apology we will never receive
We DO deserve a fucking apology we'll never get, and not to soapbox, but lemme just throw out another fucking explanation of exactly why this shit keeps happening in the slim chance that it helps at least one person not fall for it:
Fascism in ANY form will ALWAYS present itself as reasonable to YOUR sensibilities. It preys on a lot of things, your disgust reaction, your fear reaction, your own shame, your need for a tribe, your need to feel like you're part of something bigger than yourself, your need to protect your resources, your need to boost your own ego, your need to feel better than others, and in my opinion, the worst thing of all that it can prey on is your WANT TO DO GOOD.
It turns that Want To Do Good against you, gives you "acceptable targets" and sets you loose, thinking that you're being a fucking super hero. Fascism will ALWAYS feel okay when you're doing it because you understand why you're doing it because you've been told why you should be doing it by someone who's fucked the narrative to make you feel good about hurting other people because they've convinced you that you are protecting people by doing it!!
Fascism tells you: "The sort of people who value a sex scene in a movie are perverts, and perverts are dangerous, right? Oh god... What if they're a rapist and that's why they like that sort of stuff? Yeah, that trans girl that made that post about movies needing sex scenes... She pisses in a diaper, that's fucking disgusting right? And she likes weird fiction... And diapers are meant for kids... So... Yeah... Exactly, you got it! See you figured out what she was too! So you should trust your gut with these people, you're really good at spotting them! You know when someone is evil! And you DEFINITELY should not listen to a pervert explain themselves, because... Right, exactly, what's the point? They're just going to lie about it and probably say gross shit to you."
Did you catch how that worked? It let YOU make the conclusion. It let YOU answer the questions and start setting shit in stone in your own mind. And the next thing you know, you're using fiction as proof, anything outside of your own comfort levels as evidence, you've become an emotionally reactionary fascist who genuinely believes you are making the world better, and safer, for the people you love, and who love you in return.
Fascism doesn't begin with violence, it begins with a kind hand held out in your direction from someone else who believes they're helping. You might not even realize you've fucked up. Ever. That's how it works. That's how it thrives.
I'll be busy/am busy with artfight and other activities, just in case anyone was wondering. There's some kuro art cooking, but it's not my priority right now. Also happy pride *ultrasonic gay beams all your characters*
Listen, Sebastian maneuvering and caressing Ciel's body, who hands over all control, trusting him fully. But also, Ciel forcefully pulling Sebastian's tie as if a leash, making him grovel at his master's feet, devotion and hunger swirling within crimson irises, send tweet
There's a side of Kuroshitsuji fandom whose lack of self awareness is astounding (battling demons to not write appalling instead of astounding). Claiming to be oh so pure, progressive and morally superior, all the while trying to suppress freedom of expression...
You guys do know that denying freedom of expression is the first step towards fascism, right?
"I'm gay/trans/etc, I can't be fascist!" WRONG!!! You are so wrong. Believing you are immune to propaganda, is actually what makes you prone to it.
Discomfort is not an excuse to belittle anyone. Unpack your rigid black and white thinking, it's embarrassing.
Sentiments such as "Those people are degenerates!" and "Those people are pedophiles and weirdos!" get thrown around when referring to proship and profiction. And I've got to ask, do you even understand what "degenerate" means? Do you even know how much baggage comes attached with it? Also, don't these sentiments sound even faintly familiar to you? If they don't, I'd suggest reading up on any history at all <- this isn't a joke.
Going out of your way to shame, to spread misinformation, to erase, to harm, to vehemently protest against people who don't conform to your beliefs... makes you a bigot, it makes you a giant bigot.
"How dare people and topics I find unsavory exist where I can see them?" Honestly grow up, the world doesn't revolve around you.
Insert smooth Segway here.
Lets talk about book bans for a second, since they go hand in hand with pro-censorship dogma. Banning books is never a prelude to a "safer" more "civilized" society, it never has been, and it never will be - it's only ever a prelude to further oppression of minorities. Book bans are always a show of authoritarian control. Here's an anecdote (an extreme example, but I digress), my homeland is missing about 40 years worth of printed writing in our language, 40 YEARS, due to a press ban (it was basically a ban on our entire language, in our own country. The situation was much more complicated, I'm not gonna go in depth here), it wasn't for anyone's benefit, but the oppressor's. Banning writing, publication or obtainment of books is never conducted with good intentions.
If you're anti-fiction or pro-censorship, then you're on that slippery slope of fascism, congratulations. Censorship is authoritarian, full stop. That might come off as somewhat harsh, but you have to understand that the rhetoric you're spouting is genuinely anti-progressive aka. reactionary aka. conservative. A seed of prejudice always has opportunity to grow.
I have no idea how to explain to you, that you can't have "only a little" censorship.
And if you're okay with being far-right/fascist, I don't know what to tell you, except go fuck yourself?
People creating or engaging with fiction - who understand it's fiction - doesn't harm anyone (except your priggish sensibilities obviously), while bigotry harms many.
Let me be clear, feeling uncomfortable with certain topics, and not wanting to see those topics, does not make you a bigot. Taking preventative measures to not encounter said topics, is completely fine - that's kind of what you're supposed to do when you don't want to see something on the internet... What I'm saying is, screaming at someone (hyperbole) for being "gross" is not a preventative measure, but filters sure are, thanks for understanding.
Some of you ingest concepts more willingly when they are connected to media you engage with, I use this to my advantage. Furthermore, pro-censorship rhetoric, is by no means exclusive to the kuro fandom, however I'll continue using fandom as a gateway to deliver soliloquies to its denizens, I am a visionary, everyone clap (I say to an empty theater).
Anyways, this post is such an unorganized mess, here's some videos that are somewhat related, and can hopefully broaden your knowledge better than I can:
Deconstruction of sexuality, in a Twilight trench-coat. (also for you anti-fiction dorks to learn a thing or two)
Radfem to fascist pipeline. (mostly just about Kellie-Jay, hope she explodes 💖)
Aspie supremacy to fascist pipeline. (covers more history)
People who say Sebastian only sees Ciel as food at it's most basic utility, I have a question; haven't you ever had complex feelings for food?
You're telling me you've never been hesitant to eat something because it looks cute (eg: penguin cupcake nearly made me cry)? You've never seen an opulent cake you wanted to try, but couldn't? You've never been possessive of your snacks? You've never been sad over your ice-cream accidentally dropping to the ground? You've never saved an expensive bottle of [non alcoholic beverage] to be savored for a special occasion?
These are only a few simple examples pertaining to actual food, and not, you know... people (where things become more complicated).
"Sebastian is corrupting our poor little meow meow, there's no other factors at play, no sir. #SaveThatSicklyVictorianChild." Is a wild take (albeit exaggerated for comedic purposes), I have a hard time discerning whether it is something people actually believe, or if I'm being gaslighted.
I'm sorry...? You can't blame humanity's capacity for violence on "the devil", or whatever, I mean you can try; that's called scapegoating. Even Ciel himself, recognizes that humanity is more often than not, vile (he's super jaded, but can you really blame him?).
You're right, of course Ciel continually submerging himself in the criminal underworld - surrounded by violence and desperation on a regular basis - doesn't "taint" him, slowly desensitizing him to depravity. It is in fact, the demon under his command, corrupting the innocence of youth, how dare he.
Sebastian, the babygirl that he is, loves when Ciel is cruel and heartless (or revels in it), but Ciel is cruel regardless of what Sebastian thinks?
Imagine thinking that Sebastian is a net negative presence in Ciel's life, couldn't be me. "I'm glad Sebastian saved Ciel from those cultists, but he should really leave that poor boy alone now :( Sebastian wanting to eat his soul is problematic." I fully understand not wanting to see a character die, but without the contract, the story wouldn't be "Black butler", now would it.
I guess my biggest question is, why do people want to see Ciel live/break the contract so badly? Sometimes even at the expense of Sebastian.
If someone could explain their reasoning to me, that would be rad, because I don't see the appeal at all. What kind of narrative are we hoping for here? Are we hoping for a subjective happily ever after? What is it that we want from the story?
If your answer is "Because Sebastian wants to kill Ciel, and that's evil." Cool, I guess, but that doesn't really answer anything.
i'm not sure i want to see a happily ever after - but i do think i want something more from the story than everything going as expected, and ciel losing his soul whilst believing he's right in his jaded view of the world.
i think it's natural for people to see this kid who's been let down by the world in all the worst ways and want to see him overcome his seemingly inevitable fate. a fate that was decided in his worst moment with little other choice.
regardless of how he has evolved since then, what happened to him will always be a tragically unfair catalyst to his corruption. and whilst there's obviously influences other than sebastian at play, it's disingenuous to act like he's not one of the biggest factors in ciel's descent. he's manipulative af, fanning those flames every day, delighting in how fucked up this kid can get.
i am a sucker for this kind of tragedy though. i won't be disappointed if the contract is fulfilled, i just hope it's not entirely straightforward.
Differing opinions and preferences aside (I see where you're coming from, I just disagree, and you're allowed to disagree with me, isn't life beautiful), Ciel is jaded, however his view of humanity is not wrong - both can be true at the same time.
Also, let's not conveniently forget that Ciel was already born in a "corrupt" family, his predisposition to crime and violence was set in stone long before the fire. The cult wasn't a catalyst of "corruption", it traumatized him, literally destroying o!Ciel in the process (corruption is subjective of course).
Sebastian is a demon, funnily the voice of reason in a few cases, he's not there to show Ciel the morally correct course of action, he's no guardian angel, he's a demon. If fanning the flame of ambition is "manipulation", then I guess he's a manipulative bastard, good for him.
Most endings are on the table for me, as long as it's not Sebastian being banished/eradicated with reprimands for being such a naughty naughty demon.
it's not mischaracterisation to point out that ciel has been shaped by one of the most extreme experiences a human can go through, and it's because of this that he has such a thirst for power and revenge.
it's not babying him or turning him into a precious little meow meow to recognise the impact his trauma has on his choices, it's just true. his "strength" can be admirable and tragic at the same time. i'll respond the rest under the cut,
no-one is born evil. he was born into a corrupt family, sure, but we're shown that he was a very sweet kid. i'm sure vincent and the phantomhive brand of bullshit would have some influence on him eventually, but that's not 'set in stone', that's still down to influence. ciel is not inherently bad or predisposed to crime/violence.
and yes, the trauma he experienced during the attack/at the cult did not corrupt him, it destroyed him. it was still the catalyst. he could not have gone down the path he has without this defining event.
and i know sebastian is a demon. im not sure what you're getting at with that? i like sebastian as a character, even if he does damage to ciel. it seems like you're upset that people think he's a corrupting force/want him to lose, and the thing you should understand is that most people saying that stuff really enjoy sebastian! pointing out that he is a demon doing bad demon things doesn't mean you actually hate him. its a key part of his character. it's just that people also have empathy for ciel.
It wasn't my intention to imply that you're mischaracterizing Ciel by saying that his traumatic experiences shaped him and his decisions - it is actually my original point, even if I didn't highlight the cult.
I never said he was born "evil", just that his predisposition was set in stone. Predisposition=/=actually gonna happen.
I was only curious why Sebastian was often viewed as the "ultimate corrupter" in the story, in my opinion it was giving him too much credit. It is also true that I have a hard time telling if someone is serious about hating Sebastian, when they say things like "I hope Sebastian explodes and gets murdered by the rest of the cast, Ciel deserves to live, and Sebastian deserves to die."
Feel free to reply in the comments/dm, this post is getting too long for my eyes.
"Sebastian is corrupting our poor little meow meow, there's no other factors at play, no sir. #SaveThatSicklyVictorianChild." Is a wild take (albeit exaggerated for comedic purposes), I have a hard time discerning whether it is something people actually believe, or if I'm being gaslighted.
I'm sorry...? You can't blame humanity's capacity for violence on "the devil", or whatever, I mean you can try; that's called scapegoating. Even Ciel himself, recognizes that humanity is more often than not, vile (he's super jaded, but can you really blame him?).
You're right, of course Ciel continually submerging himself in the criminal underworld - surrounded by violence and desperation on a regular basis - doesn't "taint" him, slowly desensitizing him to depravity. It is in fact, the demon under his command, corrupting the innocence of youth, how dare he.
Sebastian, the babygirl that he is, loves when Ciel is cruel and heartless (or revels in it), but Ciel is cruel regardless of what Sebastian thinks?
Imagine thinking that Sebastian is a net negative presence in Ciel's life, couldn't be me. "I'm glad Sebastian saved Ciel from those cultists, but he should really leave that poor boy alone now :( Sebastian wanting to eat his soul is problematic." I fully understand not wanting to see a character die, but without the contract, the story wouldn't be "Black butler", now would it.
I guess my biggest question is, why do people want to see Ciel live/break the contract so badly? Sometimes even at the expense of Sebastian.
If someone could explain their reasoning to me, that would be rad, because I don't see the appeal at all. What kind of narrative are we hoping for here? Are we hoping for a subjective happily ever after? What is it that we want from the story?
If your answer is "Because Sebastian wants to kill Ciel, and that's evil." Cool, I guess, but that doesn't really answer anything.
i'm not sure i want to see a happily ever after - but i do think i want something more from the story than everything going as expected, and ciel losing his soul whilst believing he's right in his jaded view of the world.
i think it's natural for people to see this kid who's been let down by the world in all the worst ways and want to see him overcome his seemingly inevitable fate. a fate that was decided in his worst moment with little other choice.
regardless of how he has evolved since then, what happened to him will always be a tragically unfair catalyst to his corruption. and whilst there's obviously influences other than sebastian at play, it's disingenuous to act like he's not one of the biggest factors in ciel's descent. he's manipulative af, fanning those flames every day, delighting in how fucked up this kid can get.
i am a sucker for this kind of tragedy though. i won't be disappointed if the contract is fulfilled, i just hope it's not entirely straightforward.
Differing opinions and preferences aside (I see where you're coming from, I just disagree, and you're allowed to disagree with me, isn't life beautiful), Ciel is jaded, however his view of humanity is not wrong - both can be true at the same time.
Also, let's not conveniently forget that Ciel was already born in a "corrupt" family, his predisposition to crime and violence was set in stone long before the fire. The cult wasn't a catalyst of "corruption", it traumatized him, literally destroying o!Ciel in the process (corruption is subjective of course).
Sebastian is a demon, funnily the voice of reason in a few cases, he's not there to show Ciel the morally correct course of action, he's no guardian angel, he's a demon. If fanning the flame of ambition is "manipulation", then I guess he's a manipulative bastard, good for him.
Most endings are on the table for me, as long as it's not Sebastian being banished/eradicated with reprimands for being such a naughty naughty demon.
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