How do you think it would have played out for Hürrem had Leo never reappeared? Alternatively, what if he had left before anybody could find out about their past relationship?
It had such a huge impact in terms of intensifying her dislike of Ibrahim to, eroding her trust in Nigar, and believing that she had Leo’s blood on her hands. I’m curious about the potential impact of removing that element.
We would have seen a far softer and far less traumatised version of season 2 Hürrem. Throughout season 1 Hürrem learns to be softer in her approach to things. She learns how to more subtly play the system to her advantage. The trauma of Leo's death undoes a lot of that. It forces her to truly reckon with the fact that no matter what she does or how much more acceptable she can be, she will still suffer and lose the people she loves. Not to mention the fact that as you say she feels like she has Leo's blood on her hands after his death and how that impacts what she's capable of doing in season 2.
Without Leo, I don't think season 2 Hürrem would have resorted to some of the more extreme measures that she does with Princess Isabella. After all, her approach to romantic rivals changed in season 1. She's way less brutal with Viktoria than with Gülnihal. So I can see her continuing to be more subtle than for example sending Isabella a snake (the first time in the franchise where she actively tries to murder someone).
And as for Nigar and Hatice, Hürrem would have definitely stayed a lot closer to them. At the very least for a lot longer. Things may have still broken down due to her rivalry with Ibrahim (especially in the event of another turning point happening that exposed his brutality, and considering that they were already rivals for Süleyman's attention before Leo even happened I think this is likely) but it wouldn't have been as pronounced as what you see in seasons 2 and 3.
Maybe you get a version of Hürrem who gets a wakeup call further down the line as she realises that Süleyman and the dynasty at this point prefer Mustafa over her own sons. And that this is a direct threat to their lives. It's hard to say.
Without Leo, I don't think season 2 Hürrem would have resorted to some of the more extreme measures that she does with Princess Isabella. After all, her approach to romantic rivals changed in season 1. She's way less brutal with Viktoria than with Gülnihal. So I can see her continuing to be more subtle than for example sending Isabella a snake (the first time in the franchise where she actively tries to murder someone).
Didn’t her attempt to poison Ibrahim with his notebook predate the snake? That presumably wouldn’t happen in a scenario without Leo’s death. Without Leo in the mix, Ibrahim’s worst acts against Hürrem were sending Gülnihal to halvet, which had no significant lasting consequences, and leveraging the proof of her innocence to force her to perform public penance, which she turned to her advantage. Nothing that she’d kill him over.
Without the poisoning, Sultanzade Mehmed would have been stillborn. Hürrem was only present at the delivery because she visited so Nilufer could plant the poisoned notebook. Would Suleiman have had Hatice host Isabella after the fire at the hunting lodge if she were grieving for her baby, or would Isabella have ended up at the Old Palace or somewhere else?
I agree that Hürrem is unlikely to have tried to kill Isabella if she didn’t already see herself as a murderer.
With the Russian concubine, Tanya, Hürrem hurt herself rather than her rival, and intended to take her own life if Suleiman didn’t send her away. Perhaps, instead of trying to kill Isabella, she would have attempted suicide. If so, I can see that shocking quite a few characters. Only Hürrem, Suleiman and Gülnihal knew that Hürrem threatened suicide over Tanya’s continued presence in the palace. Assuming the subtitles are accurate, Suleiman told Ibrahim that Hürrem tried to take her own life, as opposed to threatening it. Nigar only knew that Hürrem’s next plan when told that escape was impossible was suicide, so I don’t think that she knew that she’d told Suleiman that she’d kill herself. Valide Sultan, Hatice, and Mahidevran were all under the impression that she’d only had to ask. Even the concubines gossiping thought that Hürrem didn’t have to ask twice to have the Russian concubines sent away.
Things may have still broken down due to her rivalry with Ibrahim (especially in the event of another turning point happening that exposed his brutality, and considering that they were already rivals for Süleyman's attention before Leo even happened I think this is likely) but it wouldn't have been as pronounced as what you see in seasons 2 and 3.
Considering how easily he dismissed Hürrem as a threat when he knew that she wanted revenge for Leo, I wonder if he’d have been even more dismissive of her in this scenario, at least for a time, probably until Suleiman revealed that he intended to marry her, and even then not seeing her as a threat to him but rather as a potential threat to Mustafa if she can influence Suleiman in favour of Mehmed.
Maybe you get a version of Hürrem who gets a wakeup call further down the line as she realises that Süleyman and the dynasty at this point prefer Mustafa over her own sons. And that this is a direct threat to their lives. It's hard to say.
The fun of What Ifs.
Perhaps a softer, less traumatised Hürrem would be quieter and subtler when it came to gaining influence over Suleiman, recognising the value of being underestimated.
In contrast, an Ibrahim who is more confident about his hold over Suleiman could become even more arrogant, potentially even hastening his downfall. He was always Icarus. It was only ever a question of how long it would take him to fly too close to the sun.
I'd genuinely forgotten the poisoned notebook so thanks for reminding me.
There is so much I could say about Hürrem and suicidalty. Just. So much.
It would be fascinating to see just how egregiously Ibrahim overplays his hand in a scenario where he's even more arrogant and dismissive of Hürrem as a potential threat.
There is so much I could say about Hürrem and suicidalty. Just. So much.
It was definitely a contributory factor to her capturing Suleiman’s attention because she was prepared to take risks that she wouldn’t have dared to take if she wasn’t ready to die. She was explicitly told, by multiple people, that he could kill her if he wanted to. It was a massive gamble on her part to deliberately break the rules in order to get his attention by calling out his name. Same goes for doing her own dance, and breaking pretty much every rule Sümbül gave her before Halvet Take #2.
It would be fascinating to see just how egregiously Ibrahim overplays his hand in a scenario where he's even more arrogant and dismissive of Hürrem as a potential threat.
Just my luck that one of the first What Ifs to spark my interest is one that I definitely couldn’t do as a one-shot fic. It’s one that I’ll need to think through, because no Leo is such a game changer.
Even very early on in Season 1, Ibrahim incurs Suleiman’s displeasure by concealing Mahidevran’s involvement in poisoning Hürrem. He had an excuse not to know of Hürrem being sent to the dungeon, or Mahidevran beating her half to death, since both happened outside his jurisdiction. I don’t think Suleiman was ever aware that Mahidevran stole the ring. However, the poison reached Suleiman’s private chamber, Ibrahim’s sphere of responsibility, and Ibrahim was charged with finding the culprit yet he prioritised protecting Mahidevran over obeying Suleiman’s order. Suleiman may not have punished Ibrahim for it but I can’t see him forgetting it.
Before the end of Season 1, Ibrahim has essentially repeated the offence as far as Suleiman is concerned, when he suspects him of concealing Mahidevran’s involvement in the stabbing of Gülnihal in Hürrem’s bed, and knows perfectly well that Gülnihal was not the intended target.
(Another What If to ponder: What if Gulsah was caught in the act? Would anybody believe that Mahidevran wasn’t involved? They’d expect Gulsah to swear that Mahidevran knew nothing whether she did or not.)
Victoria would eventually make an attempt on Suleiman’s life, even if it happened during a later visit, so Ibrahim would come under fire for bringing a spy into the harem.
A more arrogant Ibrahim could be even more inclined to take it for granted that he can never lose Suleiman’s trust, especially if he dismisses the possibility that Hürrem could undermine him. Given that he expected her to forget about what happened with Leo in canon, I doubt it would occur to him to think that she would seek revenge for making her humble herself in front of Mahidevran, and he wouldn’t expect her to succeed if she did. I think that he genuinely thought that he’d put Hürrem in her place and that she wouldn’t dare to challenge him. The longer Hürrem can go without disabusing him of that notion, the more overconfident he’ll become.
I wonder if Hatice would blame Hürrem for Ibrahim’s death in a scenario where she has kept clear of him, or if she’d find another scapegoat.
