Untitled

[james-summer]

Whenever I see a book reader say something in the likes of "Dany will feel alienated in the Seven Kingdoms because she doesnt know anything actual about it, she's foreign to it" I assume they're very influenced by the books or a jon stan who thinks he's azor ahai or a young griff glazer or sometimes even all

Cause......do they really think Jon doesn't feel alienated, like sure he's a part of the North, but I'm talking about the rest of the continent, he obviously feels alien to it, Cersei and Jaime feel alien to anything but the Westerlands even if they have a ownership sense to it simply because they were raised on Casterly Rock? Young Griff is a Blackfyre parading around as a Targaryen parading around as a Tyroshi, he has horrible identity issues.

Point in case, every character feels alienated to other parts of Westeros simply because they're not from there, or worse even look down upon them

"But Dany is from nowhere in Westeros, she hasnt been since she left" but then you forget she will come to look upon it, not in the sense that she's some rich brat "these brokies live like THIS?" this isnt her, she'll compare it to Essos because that's where she has been, a lot, obviously and she will for sure stay because it is her home, Essos isn't that.

And the alienation doesnt come from the place, it comes from the people, who in this case are the Smallfolk, have most of them even heard of Jon Snow? do you think they dont feel like Alienated to the great houses of Westeros, you could make an exception for Dorne ig but the remaining? what difference does it make to Daenerys.

That's the thing about such statements, because this is like implying alienation exists in a vacuum directed only towards Dany which is bullshit.

I am incredibly hungover while making this post and my thoughts arent in the right place so do correct me if you feel something's wrong lol

[reganx2]

Dany’s background is one that allows her to empathise with the struggles of the smallfolk. She has been homeless and hungry. She has been unprotected and afraid.

I think that some forget that it was a conscious choice on GRRM’s part to have her experience poverty from the age of five. He could easily have extended Ser Willem Darry’s life by seven years, and had Dany grow up in the house with the red door until her guardian died, with Ser Willem entrusting her and Viserys to Illyrio Mopatis when he was dying. She could have grown up in luxury, which would have made her time with the Dothraki even more of a shock to her, but her childhood hardships have been part of shaping her.

In contrast, Young Griff has pretty much play acted as a commoner. He has always had his guardians to care for him and to shield him from true hardship.

As for Jon, he may not have been permitted to sit at the high table when Robert, Cersei & Co. visited Winterfell but he still attended the feast.

Danys experience of poverty transcends the boundaries of Westeros and the kingdoms within it. She might feel alienated among the highborn, at least at first, but the smallfolk will be another story.

[didanagy]

NATALIE PORTMAN as ANNE BOLEYN

THE OTHER BOLEYN GIRL (2008) dir. justin chadwick

[hurremsphoenix]

Hürrem should have kept birds as pets later in life

[reganx2]

I say let her befriend a crow, since they reciprocate friendship with humans. They even bring gifts.

[mahidevran-sultan]

♡︎ Mahidevran Sultan —︎ [ 2 ჻︎ ? ]

[reganx2]

This moment really drives home how completely Mahidevran was caught off-guard by Suleiman's change in attitude towards her after they left Manisa.

[writingdose]

being a writer is fun

[floating-on-avalon]

Kilgarrah telling Merlin if he doesn't kill Morgana Arthur will die when at this point I'm pretty sure Morgause is just gunning for Uther and Morgana has no major qualms with Arthur yet. You could argue that by failing in killing Morgana Merlin cauzes Arthur's inevitable death but I just think Kilgarrah is talking out his hole

[reganx2]

I remain convinced that the prophecies Kilgharrah fed Merlin were part of a long term plan to destroy the Pendragon dynasty.

[redxluna]

A missed opportunity from the show, to be honest, not to have the reason that Suleiman believes Mehmed to be destined to take the throne after him (and, therefore, to invest heavily in his upbringing) to be the result of him assuming that only a truly "blessed" child could survive a poisoning and be born without any side effects from it.

[reganx2]

I love this idea, and it makes sense from Suleiman’s perspective that he would assume that Allah saved Mehmed for a reason. Maybe the unborn Mehmed even gets some of the credit for Hürrem going from Death’s door to perfectly fine overnight, in the sense that he shared his blessing and/or strength with his mother.

The series missed an opportunity to showcase Mehmed as Suleiman’s favoured heir in Season 2B.

Mustafa was away for three years, with Suleiman apparently never visiting him at Edirne. Imagine if, after his return, he saw Suleiman spending a lot of time with Mehmed, training with him, talking to him about how to be Padishah, letting him watch Divan meetings, etc. Episode 55 could then leave him feeling torn, as he knows that his path to the throne will be a lot smoother if he’s the only adult Şehzade when Suleiman dies but, at the same time, he loves his father and siblings, and wants them to live.

[redxluna]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

There's so much complexity to dive into when it comes to how the system of the Ottoman Empire called for what were normal familial bonds or human emotions to be set aside and eroded down. And it could be particularly wild for Mustafa since he was, quite possibly, shown Mehmed after the deaths of his other siblings in 1521 and told, "Here is a life you can still treasure," despite every adult involved knowing he'd have to one day kill that brother if he wanted to ascend to the sultanate.

[reganx2]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

So far, I find that the heavy Mustafa bias makes him decidedly unsympathetic as a character.

Instead of trying to sell the idea that Mustafa should be Sultan because he’s the Most Special Snowflake to ever snowflake in the history of Special Snowflakes, they could have highlighted the fact that he was faced with a disadvantage that no previous Sehzade was.

He was the only half-brother against four full brothers born to a woman their father loved so much that he threw out the rule book for her. Suleiman, Hürrem and their children formed a nuclear family in a system originally designed around the rule of “one mother, one son”. Why not show the impact that exclusion from that nuclear family would have on Mustafa, instead of trying to sell the idea that he’s everybody’s favourite brother?

Let Hürrem wield political influence like her historical counterpart, and Mustafa has even more reason to worry that the deck is stacked against him.

Show the tightrope that Mustafa has to walk when he needs to court external support and to impress with his achievements to give him a fighting chance at becoming Padishah but if he is too popular and too impressive, he’ll be seen as a threat, not just by his half-brothers but also by his father.

Instead of the nonsense about winning his brothers over so they stand by him when the time comes, Ibrahim could have impressed on him the need to win his brothers over so they didn’t ally against him when they were adults.

They could have had a tragic character forced to play a deadly game of thrones where the rules could change at any moment, and the Padishah could advantage or handicap players if he so chose, somebody who sought and earned approval from others that he couldn’t get from his father, and whose popularity and potential led to his father seeing him as a threat rather than a worthy successor.

I’d take that over a Gary-Stu (Musti-Stu?) any day.

[redxluna]

You took the words right out of my mouth, to be honest!

It really is one of the greatest ironies to the show that all the show's efforts to depict Mustafa as a figure without flaw, the "perfect" heir, actually worked against just such efforts. What should be the meat of the character gets discarded in favor of rendering him overly flat and, more often than not, seemingly incredibly foolish and, much as people place this on Mehmed's head instead, naïve to the point of seeming a fool.

And that was just the impression I had watching the show!

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

[reganx2]

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

The writer in me apparently decided that I needed another maligned Queen to adopt, instead of letting me finish my Anne Boleyn or Daenerys Targaryen fics. Magnificent Century is too good at birthing plot bunnies. At least the two bunnies that were hopping most have combined, so hopefully it’ll work out. The brainstorming process is fun.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

I think that the series did Mahidevran no favours as a character by not acknowledging what a huge deal it was that Suleiman broke the one mother, one son rule with Hürrem, and by having her as Haseki Sultan when the title was created specifically for Hürrem in history.

Imagine if, as a Şehzade, Suleiman bent the rules with Mahidevran by continuing a sexual relationship after Mustafa was born, relying on birth control to ensure that there was no second baby. In episode 3, instead of Mahidevran’s pregnancy being celebrated, there’s a question mark over whether it will be allowed to continue. Mahidevran could hope that Suleiman will welcome the pregnancy, now that they don’t have to worry about Selim I’s reaction, especially when Mustafa is his only surviving child. He does not, so it’s aborted to comply with the rule. Mahidevran could blame Hürrem if she believes that, if not for her, Suleiman would have wanted their baby.

Now imagine how she would feel if, when Hürrem becomes pregnant for the second time, Suleiman celebrates and never considers forcing an abortion on her.

Later, Suleiman breaks with centuries of tradition by freeing and marrying Hürrem, creating the title of Haseki Sultan for her, and making her the next highest-ranking woman after his mother.

From Mahidevran’s perspective, Suleiman’s willingness to throw out the rule book for Hürrem when he never considered doing the same for her would not just be hurtful, it would be frightening because of the potential threat to Mustafa. In theory, any Şehzade can claim the throne but, in practice, Suleiman has a lot of power to stack the deck. Not all sanjaks are equal, even if there’s no specific crown prince’s province. There must have been some that were basically dead end assignments, or that were unfavourable because the distance from Istanbul would mean that they’d be the last to know when the throne fell vacant.

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

One point I find fascinating is that, in the account of the incident with the Russian concubines, Hafsa Sultan was sorry that she had given the one gifted to her to Suleiman, took her back and married her off ASAP, so it wasn’t just Suleiman deferring to Hürrem’s feelings.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

Tiny Mustafa went from being the apple of his father’s eye, told that “my Mustafa is worth the world”, to seeing his father dote on his half-siblings while spending less time with him and his mother. Even with Mehmed, he questioned whether his father would still love him, and whether he was still a Şehzade.

When Bayezid is born, and Suleiman is hugging Mehmed while Ayşe Hafsa cuddles Mihrimah in her lap, Middle-Sized Mustafa looks left out, as well as worried about the impact on his mother. He attends the naming ceremony (I think it’s the only one he attends, but I’m open to correction) but his expression is glum. I could see that being when it hits him that he’s something of an outsider in the family, and how it would spur him to want to impress Suleiman, not to mention have his father to himself for a change, by going on campaign.

I love the idea of Mehmed emulating Mustafa’s heroics and being praised while Mustafa was criticised. It would highlight that Suleiman looks on Mehmed as the next Sultan, and sees his heroics as a good sign for his future rule, while Mustafa is viewed as a rival by Suleiman, first to Mehmed, and eventually to Suleiman himself.

[redxluna]

I can't find it for the life of me, but I swear that, at some point, I spiraled off of Leslie Peirce's theory of Suleiman's historical return to Hürrem being influenced via his need to solidify the succession again, to consider what might've happened, if his mother permitted the return to Hürrem so long as he also tried doing the same with Mahidevran, who'd equally fallen pregnant quickly and conceived a boy. It's not what Suleiman actually wants to do, but he sees it as his only way to return to Hürrem so accepts.

Except, while Mahidevran falls pregnant, it tragically goes the same way it does in the show, while Hürrem realizes she's pregnant only after, giving birth to Mihrimah, who is beloved despite not being another hoped for boy. And so Suleiman keeps returning to Hürrem...and returning...all while Mahidevran grieves the chance that slipped through her fingers, in her eyes.

Oh! And, yes, it does seem like, in real life, Suleiman's family (outside of perhaps Fatma) weren't the horrible in-laws we see in the show. I do get some of the changes, though, because they had to draw on antagonists for her from somewhere! (In another life maybe it could've been the other concubine mothers of Suleiman who lost their children? I'm pondering...)

This, however, is the part where I turn into what I hope is only mild degrees of a dork as I realize ohmyGOD you're that Reganx. (In what's, no doubt, a song and dance you've heard before, yours were the first Tudor fan fics I read so, I'm having a goofy, "Beyonce?!" moment lol.)

It does, funnily enough, also make it a little less out of the blue (or so I hope) in bringing up that Suleiman thinking Mehmed to be "blessed" + the fact he's already prone in the show to have prophetic dreams thinking he's bound for the throne, makes me think of the fic where Henry has similar "visions" about Elizabeth and then becomes determined to make it real.

In fact, I could see it striking Suleiman even more since he dreams, not only of the infant Mehmed asleep on his throne, but of Mustafa (and Ibrahim) being the one to murder Mehmed (and all of his brothers along with Mihrimah and Hürrem).

[reganx2]

Except, while Mahidevran falls pregnant, it tragically goes the same way it does in the show, while Hürrem realizes she's pregnant only after, giving birth to Mihrimah, who is beloved despite not being another hoped for boy. And so Suleiman keeps returning to Hürrem...and returning...all while Mahidevran grieves the chance that slipped through her fingers, in her eyes.

Given that Suleiman would, in all likelihood, be annoyed and angry if his mother made her approval of him trying to have more children by Hürrem conditional on him also trying with Mahidevran, I suspect that he would use Mahidevran’s miscarriage and Hürrem’s successful pregnancy as proof that Allah only approved of him continuing with Hürrem.

Ayşe Hafsa did Mahidevran no favours in canon when she kept pushing Suleiman on her behalf. He didn’t like being told that he couldn’t banish her to the Old Palace for beating Hürrem half to death (and I’m surprised that there was no callback to this when Hürrem was accused of murdering Ayşe, and banishment was not an unthinkable disgrace in her case). When she pretty much ordered him to reinstate Thursday night halvets for Mahidevran, with the threat of withholding her blessing if he did not, he repeatedly invited Mahidevran to his chamber but never touched her.

I do get some of the changes, though, because they had to draw on antagonists for her from somewhere! (In another life maybe it could've been the other concubine mothers of Suleiman who lost their children? I'm pondering...)

I suppose the problem with using the concubine mothers who had lost their children as Hürrem’s antagonists would have been that these women would have had little power or influence to use against her. Imagine if Gülfem was Hürrem’s chief antagonist. Ayşe Hafsa thought well of her, and she was Hatice’s closest friend, but would that be enough to allow her to make significant trouble for Hürrem if Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice had nothing against her?

I would have liked to see more character development from Ayşe Hafsa where her view of Hürrem gradually evolved, instead of her being Team Mahidevran to such a ridiculous extent.

As for Suleiman’s small army of sisters, you’d think that there’d be one of them who, even if she didn’t like Hürrem as a person, was pragmatic enough to back her as the probable winner.

This, however, is the part where I turn into what I hope is only mild degrees of a dork as I realize ohmyGOD you're that Reganx. (In what's, no doubt, a song and dance you've heard before, yours were the first Tudor fan fics I read so, I'm having a goofy, "Beyonce?!" moment lol.)

That’s me. Crippled with writer’s block, alas, but I’m hoping that Hürrem might help break that.

It does, funnily enough, also make it a little less out of the blue (or so I hope) in bringing up that Suleiman thinking Mehmed to be "blessed" + the fact he's already prone in the show to have prophetic dreams thinking he's bound for the throne, makes me think of the fic where Henry has similar "visions" about Elizabeth and then becomes determined to make it real.

That’s one of my favourites out of my stories. Henry being Henry, he never realised that there was a reason his visions stopped when he was told of Anne’s subsequent pregnancies, not when she conceived.

In fact, I could see it striking Suleiman even more since he dreams, not only of the infant Mehmed asleep on his throne, but of Mustafa (and Ibrahim) being the one to murder Mehmed (and all of his brothers along with Mihrimah and Hürrem).

Given Suleiman’s naive hope that his children wouldn’t spill their brothers’ blood over the throne, combined with him hearing Mahidevran tell Hürrem that her children would die, it wouldn’t have surprised me if he saw Mehmed’s ascension to the throne as the scenario in which the maximum number of his children could live, in the sense that he wouldn’t expect Selim, Bayezid or Cihangir to challenge Mehmed, even if Mustafa did.

If Mustafa had died in a riding accident when he snuck away from the Edirne encampment in episode 25*, for example, Suleiman and Hürrem’s children would all have been under five years old. Selim was a year old and Bayezid newborn. Under those circumstances, could they have been raised to support Mehmed as heir?

* A death that couldn’t conceivably be blamed on Hürrem, who was the one who expressed concerns about the danger and Mustafa’s youth.

[redxluna]

...I suspect that he would use Mahidevran’s miscarriage and Hürrem’s successful pregnancy as proof that Allah only approved of him continuing with Hürrem.

Oof, you're not at all wrong there.

I'm even more struck, in a way, through the idea of how Mahidevran might react to realizing that was what Suleiman thought or even just being told that it was the "will of Allah" that she not be allowed to keep her child. It might make her cling to the idea that it's her own "proof" that Mustafa is even more "blessed" in his own right, but there's also a part of me that wonders if she'd have the "traitorous" thought of, "Well, Allah was never my god to begin with, was He?"

The show really only depicts the origins of those real life enslaved people who have traditional tales told of how it occurred (Hürrem and Nurbanu, but even Ibrahim are examples of this) but where Mahidevran was actually from or the manner in which she was presented to Suleiman is one big question mark.

I often, based off the tale of the supposed beating, where Mahidevran launched a defense of her rank against Hürrem's own possible "unworthiness" to serve the sultan, I tend to think that Mahidevran was abducted young then trained as a "gift" (perhaps in comparison to Hürrem) but it could be that she remembers a time where she had a different life and religion.

Ayşe Hafsa did Mahidevran no favours in canon when she kept pushing Suleiman on her behalf.

I do think a lot of it had to do with how Mahidevran had been her choice for Suleiman since, in the show, and, if that didn't already put the other woman in her pocket, so to speak, the utter reliance Mahidevran had had to have on her after losing Suleiman's favor definitely did.

Still, for someone that proved an otherwise seasoned player of the game, boy, oh boy, did Ayşe Hafsa stumble over how to influence her son when it came to the women in his life. Her initial attempts to remove Hürrem from his interest either just made him more protective of her or made him determined to establish his authority over hers through possessing her despite his mother's disapproval.

I think she thought that, if she just pressed hard enough, that Suleiman would cave and accept Mahidevran back, but there was truly no reason for him too.

And I am forever frustrated over how she tries to claim Mahidevran sending poison to the sultan's table, threatening the lives of her son and future grandson, is just a "mistake." If there'd ever be a moment for her character to take the first turn against Mahidevran (perhaps the full break happens after Mahidevran tries to act the Valide before Suleiman's even dead? it felt like the writers were going that direction, but then nothing was done with it) it'd be in that moment.

(I agree with the idea that Ayşe Hafsa deserved the right to gradually change her opinion, basically! Perhaps with one of her daughters overtaking her as being the crueler force, particularly since if she was portrayed as a former slave since, if so, Hatice's words of Hürrem needing a reminder of "her place" would hit hard.)

As for Suleiman’s small army of sisters, you’d think that there’d be one of them who, even if she didn’t like Hürrem as a person, was pragmatic enough to back her as the probable winner.

You really would!

I mean, I'll admit, some of the struggle, I think, is that outside of Hatice (and a little bit of Beyhan?) the writers kind of...forgot? About Suleiman's other sisters? Until they needed a convenient bit for the plot.

Şah, if actually set up to be Suleiman's half-sister, might've been perfect for this, but I've also poked around at the idea of one of the other daughters having presented Mahmud's mother in a certain AU and backing Hürrem (per said concubine mother's request) after the woman dies.

That’s me. Crippled with writer’s block, alas, but I’m hoping that Hürrem might help break that.

I will say (not to pressure, I'm just excited 😅) that this fandom often has such a drought of fics that I hope so!

I fear there's a call for more writers that are able to remove the bias enough to treat all characters equally, rather than just indulging in obvious revenge fics. (I don't want to preach what people can write, not ever, it's just...a lot.)

If Mustafa had died in a riding accident when he snuck away from the Edirne encampment in episode 25*, for example, Suleiman and Hürrem’s children would all have been under five years old. Selim was a year old and Bayezid newborn. Under those circumstances, could they have been raised to support Mehmed as heir? * A death that couldn’t conceivably be blamed on Hürrem, who was the one who expressed concerns about the danger and Mustafa’s youth.

So, for starters? This is legit a fascinating AU.

It links back to what made Hürrem's sons so standout too, which was, for the very first time, those competing for the throne would be raised alongside on another. Before, while some interaction was bound to happen, brothers would be raised separately (no shared tutors like in the show) as a way to effect the gradual separation from that natural familial bond, but such a thing couldn't happen for any of Hürrem's sons.

Hence why, I often feel as if any of Suleiman's sons were going to wanderer around, swearing that, if he took the throne none of his brothers would be harmed, it'd be Mehmed, not Mustafa. (Plus, some tension in terms of Mustafa being able to ask, "All your brothers?" and never being able to receive a clear answer.)

In February 1553 (about 8 or so months before Mustafa's execution), one of the Venetian ambassadors would write an account that, while we do have to take it with a certain grain of salt since the man couldn't have actually witnessed it, does suggest that the idea of Mustafa being a threat to his sons from Hürrem was an actual fear of Suleiman's:

“God give you a long life, Your Majesty, but I still have hope to be Sultan; and when this doesn’t happen, whoever the new Sultan is, I won’t be sad, because nobody can be afraid of me.” 

[…]

Süleyman allegedly sighed and said: “My son, Mustafa will be Sultan and will deprive you all of your lives.”

There were actual rumors (possibly a groundless effort to make the man seem even more "bloodthirsty" but still) too that Suleiman's father, Selim I, had had his other sons killed in secret, like he had his father, in order to assure Suleiman took the throne. It's weird then that the show had Selim I depicted as trying to kill Suleiman instead (all the more since...that was his only heir at the time??) but it could provide a launching off point for Suleiman to become convinced something had to be done, either bloodlessly or not.

[reganx2]

I'm even more struck, in a way, through the idea of how Mahidevran might react to realizing that was what Suleiman thought or even just being told that it was the "will of Allah" that she not be allowed to keep her child. It might make her cling to the idea that it's her own "proof" that Mustafa is even more "blessed" in his own right, but there's also a part of me that wonders if she'd have the "traitorous" thought of, "Well, Allah was never my god to begin with, was He?"

If she’s feeling cynical, she could think that, if it had been the other way around, her daughter would be the sign that she wouldn’t have another son, while Hürrem’s miscarriage meant that she and Suleiman needed to try again.

I often, based off the tale of the supposed beating, where Mahidevran launched a defense of her rank against Hürrem's own possible "unworthiness" to serve the sultan, I tend to think that Mahidevran was abducted young then trained as a "gift" (perhaps in comparison to Hürrem) but it could be that she remembers a time where she had a different life and religion.

Whatever about the real Mahidevran, I suspect that the Mahidevran of the series was abducted as a child, given her preliminary training in a noble or royal household, and then gifted to Suleiman at some point after he went to Manisa as governor. She exhibits quite a strong element of snobbery towards Hürrem over being sold in a slave market, which suggests that she considers her own background more refined and respectable.

It interests me that the Hürrem of the series has such a short timeline between capture and arrival at the harem, which may not have been the case for her historical counterpart. For the character, I think that it contributes to her early rebelliousness, and it means that she didn’t have the pre-harem training that other concubines, including Mahidevran, had.

And I am forever frustrated over how she tries to claim Mahidevran sending poison to the sultan's table, threatening the lives of her son and future grandson, is just a "mistake." If there'd ever be a moment for her character to take the first turn against Mahidevran (perhaps the full break happens after Mahidevran tries to act the Valide before Suleiman's even dead? it felt like the writers were going that direction, but then nothing was done with it) it'd be in that moment.

Do you think that, if Mahidevran hadn’t lied about Hürrem provoking the beating by saying that she was going to exile her, Mustafa and Ayşe Hafsa, that the palace would be hers and they’d be in chains, Ayşe Hafsa would still have protected her, to the point of objecting to Suleiman sending her to the Old Palace?

After Mahidevran stole Hürrem’s ring, she said that it was the last time she’d protect her, so I wonder if she would have kept her word if Mahidevran had not led her to believe that Hürrem was on a mission to get rid of them all.

One of the things that frustrates me most about Ayşe Hafsa’s reaction to the poisoning is that she tries to gaslight Hürrem with a pitiful excuse for a cover story about spoiled cream when she could have very easily established herself as a protector.

They had a perfectly good scapegoat in Hasibe, and her “suicide” gave them a valid excuse not to be able to proceed further with the investigation. They could even theorise that Hasibe was motivated by jealousy over Hürrem being the only concubine Suleiman had looked at since their first night together. Pretty much every concubine could be argued to have motive to want Hürrem out of the way if she was perceived as the barrier between them and a chance at the Sultan’s bed, promotion to the favourites’ floor, and potentially bearing the Sultan’s child.

“Yes, you were poisoned. The culprit killed herself. I’m assigning you a food taster so it doesn’t happen again.”

Hürrem already wanted Ayşe Hafsa to accept her, so winning her over could have been easy.

I don’t think Ayşe Hafsa ever said anything to Mahidevran about the poisoning.

If Gülşah had been caught in the act of stabbing Gülnihal, would Ayşe Hafsa have fought against Mahidevran (who would be bound to be assumed to be involved) being exiled? If she did, would Suleiman listen, especially when, not so long ago, Hürrem was banished with much less evidence?

(I agree with the idea that Ayşe Hafsa deserved the right to gradually change her opinion, basically! Perhaps with one of her daughters overtaking her as being the crueler force, particularly since if she was portrayed as a former slave since, if so, Hatice's words of Hürrem needing a reminder of "her place" would hit hard.)

What if Ayşe Hafsa being a Crimean princess was portrayed as a myth that was fed to new arrivals to the harem to exalt the Sultan’s mother?

They’d need to tweak the family tree so that more of Suleiman’s siblings are half-siblings, but that would have been doable.

It’d mean no Aybige, which would be a loss, but an Ayşe Hafsa who has more in common with her son’s concubines than her daughter(s) could have been fascinating. If the brothers Suleiman lost were half-brothers by different concubines, how would she feel about her son having four sons by one mother, and one son by another? It would also impact her view of Suleiman marrying Hürrem if Selim I never even considered doing the same for her.

I will say (not to pressure, I'm just excited 😅) that this fandom often has such a drought of fics that I hope so!

I’m excited to give it a stab.

The idea I’m playing with at the moment combines two What Ifs that grabbed my attention: What if Leo never came to Constantinople? and What if Suleiman was a loving, faithful husband?

Originally separate ideas, but they merged.

This is legit a fascinating AU.

Thanks.

I’d feel terrible for poor Mahidevran in that scenario, especially as she encouraged the idea of Mustafa going on campaign. Not that she was alone in that; Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice both seemed supportive. Suleiman only intended to let Mustafa watch the preparations, not to go on campaign. The timing would also be awful, given that Hürrem would literally be just out of bed after the birth of Baby #4/Son #3 when they got the news of Mustafa’s death.

Hence why, I often feel as if any of Suleiman's sons were going to wanderer around, swearing that, if he took the throne none of his brothers would be harmed, it'd be Mehmed, not Mustafa. (Plus, some tension in terms of Mustafa being able to ask, "All your brothers?" and never being able to receive a clear answer.)

To be fair, Mustafa probably wouldn’t give a clear answer about whether he’d challenge Mehmed for the throne.

If, hypothetically speaking, Suleiman changed the law to (a) give the Padishah the right to designate his heir, and (b) outlaw fratricide except in cases where a Şehzade attempted to seize the throne from the designated heir, I have trouble believing that Mustafa would just accept Mehmed being designated as Suleiman’s heir.

[redxluna]

It's one of those cases where Mahidevran's own snobbery could maybe get excused away through her having been in her higher status for so long, but I really do default to a similar background to her.

Particularly since it draws on further parallels for Hürrem to have with Ibrahim as a narrative foil since both of them would've achieved meteoric rises that overlooked others that had been their longer and felt more deserving. (Nigar's rather young for her own position too, so it could similarly be a similar case for her that influences how she guides Hürrem.)

Do you think that, if Mahidevran hadn’t lied about Hürrem provoking the beating by saying that she was going to exile her, Mustafa and Ayşe Hafsa, that the palace would be hers and they’d be in chains, Ayşe Hafsa would still have protected her, to the point of objecting to Suleiman sending her to the Old Palace?

It will sound silly, I know, but this is a hard one to tell for sure, if only because, in my mind, Ayşe Hafsa's moment of, "Oh, no, not that one," came when Daye reported Hürrem's boast to her, despite having left too early to realize it to be a joke.

But, at the same time, like other reactions from her that have been brought up, that Ayşe Hafsa takes such offense over this is, honestly, quite strange.

It's similar to the reaction I have when people try claiming Hürrem entirely at fault for antagonizing Ibrahim since, at that point in time, she can be easily perceived as little more than a teenage girl on a power trip, carried away and making foolish boasts or threats. She literally can't be the first harem occupant to have behaved as such, so, if anything, the likes of Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim, who have established themselves far before her time, are more likely to laugh at her claims than take them seriously. (Akin to how Mahidevran actually winds up doing when Fidan tries to accuse Rümeysa of being the same.)

For her to order Daye to keep an eye on Hürrem, particularly given the rebelliousness already present in her, only makes sense, but it's similar to what you said about the whole poisoning incident in that wouldn't a true veteran of the harem realize that you need to get this girl to see the merits of being on your side as quickly as possible?

A Hürrem well-cared for by Ayşe Hafsa would be prone to be loyal to her, which would make her less inclined to act out and able to be kept an eye on (perhaps advocating for the Valide's side towards Suleiman once Mahidevran proves unable to keep favor).

But, nope, she just continually makes her own enemy...

Still, sorry, I'm getting off topic lol!

I'm not quite sure how much Ayşe Hafsa believes Mahidevran's claim about Hürrem here? I might be giving her too much credit, but, surely, anyone with even half a functioning brain cell would have to know anyone caught in such circumstances would want to project how it wasn't their fault and Mahidevran, in claiming Hürrem singled out even the but the Valide too, is laying it on thick.

But...given how the show operates? It really could go either way in the end.

If Gülşah had been caught in the act of stabbing Gülnihal, would Ayşe Hafsa have fought against Mahidevran (who would be bound to be assumed to be involved) being exiled? If she did, would Suleiman listen, especially when, not so long ago, Hürrem was banished with much less evidence?

So, while I wish, at times, this was more consistently communicated in people's reactions to her, the motivation to overprotect Mahidevran has less to do with herself and much more to do with her son. If you want Mustafa to succeed, then you need to ensure his mother's reputation is kept clean.

Gülşah might find herself quietly dispatched in an "accident," but they'd fight to keep Mahidevran's hands clean, I think. Although I'd live for a greater tension between herself and Ayşe Hafsa where the Valide Sultan, rather than replacing Hürrem's servants and restricting her movements, does all that to Mahidevran instead.

Removed of allies and under constant monitoring, I fear how Mahidevran would behave given her tendency to act rashly and have her own brand of emotional breakdowns (earned, to be fair, but still).

What if Ayşe Hafsa being a Crimean princess was portrayed as a myth that was fed to new arrivals to the harem to exalt the Sultan’s mother?

The loss of Aybige is hard (I'd want to bring her back somehow, but would she still be herself in a tweaked version of her story? I hope so!) but I do think this'd be great since it's a sort of, "Well, fuck you, if I need to create a new me, I'll write the story," approach to the new identities given while enslaved (and the expectation that it'd replace you're old one).

The idea of Nurbanu being a servant only pretending to be a noble, has been suggested around here before too, so I think that'd make for a nice parallel too between the two women's narratives.

The idea I’m playing with at the moment combines two What Ifs that grabbed my attention: What if Leo never came to Constantinople? and What if Suleiman was a loving, faithful husband? Originally separate ideas, but they merged.

Ooh, excited to see how these merged. (Making Suleiman less of a horrible husband is always my jam, though, I'll admit.)

I do wonder, in the AU where poor Mustafa dies young, if Mahidevran, unable to deal with her grief, might try to find some way to still blame Hürrem, despite it being clear she's not at fault. (Although I hope she finds a little bit of peace somewhere along the way.)

I have trouble believing that Mustafa would just accept Mehmed being designated as Suleiman’s heir.

Yeeaahh, that, admittedly, is why I was never really sold on the idea that Mustafa and Bayezid were both totally chill with one another despite both wanting the throne. At best, it just made them both sound like idiots.

[reganx2]

She literally can't be the first harem occupant to have behaved as such, so, if anything, the likes of Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim, who have established themselves far before her time, are more likely to laugh at her claims than take them seriously.

As of the first episode, Ayşe Hafsa and Daye Hatun must have been at the harem for close to three decades. They had to have seen their share of young concubines who developed swollen heads after being selected for halvet.

You’d expect the initial reaction to Hürrem’s boasting to be dismissing her as a foolish girl who doesn’t realise that she is only the latest in a long line of young women who will be used for temporary pleasure and then forgotten, but who will soon get a reality check. It’d only be after Suleiman keeps Hürrem with him for multiple nights, including the Thursday that’s supposed to be reserved for Mahidevran, and then interferes with harem discipline on her behalf, that they should begin to be concerned.

Ayşe Hafsa taking such offence to Hürrem talking about being Valide Sultan one day also doesn’t make sense. It’s not only a natural ambition for somebody in her position, it’s the job of a concubine who bears a son to do her utmost to prepare that son to be Sultan, in which case she’s going to be Valide Sultan if she outlives Suleiman. If anything, it points to Hürrem having a decent understanding of how the system works for somebody so new to the harem.

Ayşe Hafsa doesn’t seem to hold Hürrem’s behaviour on her first night in the harem against her. She asks how she’s settling in, warns Daye Hatun not to spoil her and, when Suleiman gives her the purple handkerchief, is only concerned that she should be properly prepared. She had no qualms about sending a girl who, just a couple of days ago, was screaming that she wanted the Sultan to die to her son’s bed, so freaking out about a little teenage boasting doesn’t make sense.

A Hürrem well-cared for by Ayşe Hafsa would be prone to be loyal to her, which would make her less inclined to act out and able to be kept an eye on (perhaps advocating for the Valide's side towards Suleiman once Mahidevran proves unable to keep favor).

If Ayşe Hafsa and Mahidevran had wanted to condition Hürrem to depend on Suleiman emotionally and to cling to him as her source of safety, they could hardly have done a better job. She was a traumatised, abused young girl who was highly responsive to kindness and protectiveness, and she was also eager for Ayşe Hafsa’s approval.

It would have taken little effort on Ayşe Hafsa’s part to win Hürrem over, especially given the void in her life that her mother’s death left. Ayşe Hafsa was even present when Hürrem called for her mother in her delirium after being poisoned. I’d say that Hürrem would not only have latched onto Ayşe Hafsa as a mother figure, she would have accepted her as a mother figure who was a strict disciplinarian, as long as she was treated fairly.

Instead, Ayşe Hafsa, who threatened to destroy Hürrem if she did anything to endanger her pregnancy, covered for the person who tried to murder her and her unborn child. In Hürrem’s shoes, I would have been terrified knowing that Mahidevran could try to kill “the dynasty’s” baby, and have people like Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim shield her from consequences.

So, while I wish, at times, this was more consistently communicated in people's reactions to her, the motivation to overprotect Mahidevran has less to do with herself and much more to do with her son. If you want Mustafa to succeed, then you need to ensure his mother's reputation is kept clean.

I’d have liked it if, when Mahidevran tried to blame Hürrem for provoking the beating, Ayşe Hafsa made it clear that she didn’t believe her. If nothing else, given that Hürrem’s grasp of Turkish was supposed to be shaky at this stage, she probably wasn’t fluent enough to express the sentiments Mahidevran attributed to her. She could then turn the subject to Mustafa, spell out the consequences if Suleiman finds out what happened, remind her that her first duty is to care for Mustafa and she can’t do that if she’s banished, and make it clear that, for Mustafa’s sake, Suleiman won’t be told.

Gülşah might find herself quietly dispatched in an "accident," but they'd fight to keep Mahidevran's hands clean, I think. Although I'd live for a greater tension between herself and Ayşe Hafsa where the Valide Sultan, rather than replacing Hürrem's servants and restricting her movements, does all that to Mahidevran instead.

I was thinking that Gülşah‘s guilt would be known to half the harem before Ayşe Hafsa finds out. Basically, Esma arrives a little earlier, in time to witness the stabbing, screams the palace down, and brings people running. No hope of covering up the identity of the culprit, and given how long Gülşah has served Mahidevran, I’d say that pretty much everybody would take it as a given that Mahidevran gave the order. In canon, Suleiman assumed that Mahidevran was responsible without knowing about Gülşah, and he was not happy with Ibrahim for covering for her.

Ironically, Hürrem being banished despite being innocent could be the only real argument Ayşe Hafsa can make against Mahidevran’s banishment, other than the impact on Mustafa. They were wrong about Hürrem, and she was punished unjustly. Do they want to risk a repeat of this when they can’t be completely certain of Mahidevran’s guilt?

I love the idea of Ayşe Hafsa swapping out Mahidevran’s servants and restricting her movements as an alternative to banishment. Given that Mahidevran was not only blameless, but had actually forbidden Gülşah to kill Hürrem, being believed to be responsible and practically put on house arrest would be terrible for her.

Mustafa was about ten years old at that point. Old enough to pick up on the fact that his mother is being punished, even if he is not told why. Would it damage his relationship with Ayşe Hafsa if he thinks she’s being unkind and unfair to his mother? Would he try to advocate for Mahidevran with Suleiman?

The loss of Aybige is hard (I'd want to bring her back somehow, but would she still be herself in a tweaked version of her story? I hope so!) but I do think this'd be great since it's a sort of, "Well, fuck you, if I need to create a new me, I'll write the story," approach to the new identities given while enslaved (and the expectation that it'd replace you're old one).

Maybe her storyline could be left more or less intact, apart from the blood relationship, if her father is an ally of Suleiman’s, and seeks sanctuary on her behalf.

Would Aybige’s grandfather have been the one who gifted Hürrem to Suleiman?

Ooh, excited to see how these merged. (Making Suleiman less of a horrible husband is always my jam, though, I'll admit.)

It took me longer than I care to admit to notice the Aşk-I Derün subtitle in the title card. Google Translate informed me that this translates to “deepest love” or “love from the innermost soul”.

I haven’t even finished Season Two yet, but from what I’ve gleaned about Seasons Three and Four, I’m likely to have frequent occasion to call Suleiman “you rat bastard!”.

That needs fixing.

I do wonder, in the AU where poor Mustafa dies young, if Mahidevran, unable to deal with her grief, might try to find some way to still blame Hürrem, despite it being clear she's not at fault. (Although I hope she finds a little bit of peace somewhere along the way.)

I imagine she would blame Hürrem at first, if only as a coping mechanism. Logically, she would know that Hürrem didn’t jinx Mustafa by saying that he was too young and that it would be too dangerous for him to go on campaign, but she will need somebody to blame.

It would probably be kinder to send Hürrem and her children back to Topkapi ahead of schedule so they’re not at Edirne during the mourning period. Their presence would be salt in the wound for Mahidevran, and I think that Hürrem, Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice would all be sensitive enough to know it.

In time, Mahidevran could find some peace doing charity work in Mustafa’s memory.

Gülfem, who lost her children, could also be a source of support.

Yeeaahh, that, admittedly, is why I was never really sold on the idea that Mustafa and Bayezid were both totally chill with one another despite both wanting the throne. At best, it just made them both sound like idiots.

Especially if they’re genuinely chill with one another, as opposed to one or both of them pretending that they are to lull the other into a false sense of security.

[redxluna]

If Ayşe Hafsa and Mahidevran had wanted to condition Hürrem to depend on Suleiman emotionally and to cling to him as her source of safety, they could hardly have done a better job. She was a traumatised, abused young girl who was highly responsive to kindness and protectiveness, and she was also eager for Ayşe Hafsa’s approval.

This, I'll admit, is basically @hurremsphoenix's thesis when it comes to early Hürrem! Even more so when, given the brief glimpses of Hürrem's mother, it seems as if trying to appease a stricter mother figure is a thing familiar to her. She clings so hard to Suleiman, in part, because she wants to be able to rebuild a sense of family for herself, so I don't think she lies to Ayşe Hafsa later on that, initially, she loved her and Hatice (and so was painted when it wasn't returned and she was schemed against instead).

Instead, Ayşe Hafsa, who threatened to destroy Hürrem if she did anything to endanger her pregnancy, covered for the person who tried to murder her and her unborn child. In Hürrem’s shoes, I would have been terrified knowing that Mahidevran could try to kill “the dynasty’s” baby, and have people like Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim shield her from consequences.

The sheer number of Hürrem's behaviors that are learned behaviors from the actions of the other high-ranked women around her is honestly wild. It's akin to the way in which none of them like being confronted with the bluntness Hürrem often wields at them, rather than pretty words. None of them like looking in the mirror (neither, ironically, does Ibrahim, but that's built on a whole lot of other things too).

I continue to be very, "???" about how they just assumed Hürrem would basically forgive and forget when it came to the near death of her own child.

If nothing else, given that Hürrem’s grasp of Turkish was supposed to be shaky at this stage, she probably wasn’t fluent enough to express the sentiments Mahidevran attributed to her.

Oh god, that would've been perfect, though! Just let Mahidevran ramble on and on...right up until the point where she's reminded of this and her face just falls.

The reminder of, "Mustafa should be your first priority, stop this," is an excellent recurring theme too, considering how Mahidevran is oft reminded of this...and doesn't always apply it, to her own detriment.

No hope of covering up the identity of the culprit, and given how long Gülşah has served Mahidevran, I’d say that pretty much everybody would take it as a given that Mahidevran gave the order. In canon, Suleiman assumed that Mahidevran was responsible without knowing about Gülşah, and he was not happy with Ibrahim for covering for her.

Ooh, yeah, the fact that Gülşah is so obviously an extension of Mahdevran's own authority within the harem (all that really lends her a veneer of authority too since she's so clearly not respected on her own) that her own misdeeds would be viewed as endorsed by her mistress is a thing I've called out before when it comes to Gülşah's treatment of Mehmed, refusing to address him or Hürem by the proper title or show respect.

To quote Drama Recaps, from a moment in recapping Legend of Ruyi: "Whether or not this is how Ruyi feels, her maids are an extension of herself [...] Whatever they do or say everyone is going to assume it was under your direction or they wouldn't be working for you."

If caught at her attempted murder, there'd be no way for Mahidevran to dodge the suspicion that she had given the order. All the more so since Gülşah, like a classic bully, to be honest, is prone to utilizing violence, only to fall apart the instant it is used against her. It'd be all to easy for her to say something that could be easily misconstrued (akin to that On the Edge of a Golden World moment of, "...Mary... wanted... be Queen...") and...oh boy, that's the ribbon to tie it all off with.

Even if her status was secured for her, the vanguard that had been Mahidevran's status would have been shot (particularly since, if wise, Hürrem would make sure the gossip stirred to a fervor and, honestly, despite all that happened, Gülnihal was still dear to her, and her rage over an innocent being harmed in her place might stir the pot enough on its own). It's possible that some figures would still offer support, claiming she'd only done the "right" thing in trying to rid the Ottoman lands of the "witch" and herself of a rival, but...are those really allies she'd want? All the more when she hadn't actually given the order?

Would it damage his relationship with Ayşe Hafsa if he thinks she’s being unkind and unfair to his mother? Would he try to advocate for Mahidevran with Suleiman?

I do think that, in not wanting to believe his mother capable of such an act, he'd try to search out evidence that could validate her. But, if he tried to advocate before Suleiman, I think he might, in turn, learn of how his mother had already tried to murder Hürrem and Mehmed before, and...ooh boy, that'd be quite the fallout, I think, if Mustafa confronted his mother with that.

Could lead to a very different story for Mustafa too, if he got told that he had to understand who his rivals were and not symapthize with them, only to break down and flee from his mother...running into Hürrem, of whom he demands, "Does it have to be this way?" and it's her own moment of truth in, "...No," before she leads him off to look after him.

Like, I know it's been debated that Hürrem being Mustafa's mother wouldn't be the magic fix people think it'd be, for any number of reasons, but I like giving them openings to work together for the same goal with that goal being the preservation of all of Suleiman's children, despite the odds.

Maybe her storyline could be left more or less intact, apart from the blood relationship, if her father is an ally of Suleiman’s, and seeks sanctuary on her behalf.

Ooh, true! Even more wild then would be how since it might be Aybige’s grandfather to have gifted Hürrem (wild that wasn't more explored in their relationship) then Ayşe Hafsa might've been similarly "gifted" by a relative of Aybige’s (possibly being the first crack in Ayşe Hafsa's carefully composed identity since, "A Crimean princess? But I don't know her?")

I haven’t even finished Season Two yet, but from what I’ve gleaned about Seasons Three and Four, I’m likely to have frequent occasion to call Suleiman “you rat bastard!”.

*casually pushing a mountain of spoilers back into the closet like "nothing to see here!*

But, yeah, 100% not over how the show basically scooped up one of the historical wife men and went, "Wait, he needs more Henry VIII to him!"

(A side detail I wasn't sure where to otherwise put: I learned only after the fact that Daye Hatun's name is never actually known in the show since "daye hatun" on its own is actually just a title intended for the sultan's wet nurse and caretaker. So, admittedly, no wonder Ayşe Hafsa trusts her so much and her children adore Daye.)

[reganx2]

Even more so when, given the brief glimpses of Hürrem's mother, it seems as if trying to appease a stricter mother figure is a thing familiar to her. She clings so hard to Suleiman, in part, because she wants to be able to rebuild a sense of family for herself, so I don't think she lies to Ayşe Hafsa later on that, initially, she loved her and Hatice (and so was painted when it wasn't returned and she was schemed against instead).

Between the flashback where Hürrem is worried about her mother punishing her if she’s late to church, and the fact that, after she disfigures Gülnihal’s face, it’s her mother who shows up in her dream to chastise her, it definitely seems like her mother was the family disciplinarian.

I agree that she admired Ayşe Hafsa from the beginning, and wanted her acceptance. After Hürrem returns from exile in Season 1, she’s thrilled when Ayşe Hafsa invites her to come with her and Hatice to Hatice’s new palace. When she finds out that the trip was a lure to get her away from the palace while Sadika was sent to halvet, she’s genuinely hurt that she would do this, even though she’s been trying so hard to behave perfectly.

They could have made quite a formidable team-up, if Ayşe Hafsa had allowed it.

Oh god, that would've been perfect, though! Just let Mahidevran ramble on and on...right up until the point where she's reminded of this and her face just falls.

I could see being caught in a lie by Ayşe Hafsa making Mahidevran even more anxious, as she is not somebody you want to alienate. It could also help drive home how much trouble she could be in if discovered. Hürrem, whether from a sense of self-preservation or freezing up when attacked, didn’t fight back, and Suleiman wouldn’t accept verbal provocation as an excuse even if she could sell that story.

If caught at her attempted murder, there'd be no way for Mahidevran to dodge the suspicion that she had given the order. All the more so since Gülşah, like a classic bully, to be honest, is prone to utilizing violence, only to fall apart the instant it is used against her. It'd be all to easy for her to say something that could be easily misconstrued (akin to that On the Edge of a Golden World moment of, "...Mary... wanted... be Queen...") and...oh boy, that's the ribbon to tie it all off with.

I could see Gülşah, when caught, whimpering her canon line about how Hürrem can’t make her Sultana sad anymore. Once somebody pulls back the bedcovers to reveal that Gülnihal was the victim, I could see her completely falling apart, so much so that nobody can get a sensible word out of her. Even if she later regains enough composure to say that Mahidevran didn’t know, that’s likely to be taken with a grain of salt because everybody would assume that she’d try to protect her, regardless of the truth.

Being caught in the act also means that baby Selim could be assumed to be the next intended victim. Who is going to take Gülşah‘s word for it that she wasn’t also going to kill the baby, aka. a potential future rival of Mahidevran’s son?

Even if her status was secured for her, the vanguard that had been Mahidevran's status would have been shot (particularly since, if wise, Hürrem would make sure the gossip stirred to a fervor and, honestly, despite all that happened, Gülnihal was still dear to her, and her rage over an innocent being harmed in her place might stir the pot enough on its own). It's possible that some figures would still offer support, claiming she'd only done the "right" thing in trying to rid the Ottoman lands of the "witch" and herself of a rival, but...are those really allies she'd want? All the more when she hadn't actually given the order?

I don’t think that Hürrem would even need to do anything to stir gossip to a fever pitch. Gülnihal was very well-liked, so her near-murder will be an outrage. Hürrem’s rage over Gülnihal being harmed could win her points with the concubines because it’s obvious that she is genuinely devastated by what happened. Mahidevran seemingly getting away with hurting Gülnihal would probably harden a lot of hearts against her.

Even those who would be supportive of Mahidevran getting rid of Hürrem are unlikely to dare to say so.

If Ayşe Hafsa takes her personal attendants away, instead of replacing them with dedicated attendants, perhaps she would have Mahidevran served by concubines assigned the task of caring for her on a daily basis, to prevent another Gülşah.

But, if he tried to advocate before Suleiman, I think he might, in turn, learn of how his mother had already tried to murder Hürrem and Mehmed before, and...ooh boy, that'd be quite the fallout, I think, if Mustafa confronted his mother with that.

I could see Suleiman, furious with himself for sparing Mahidevran over the beating and then the poisoning, thereby endangering Hürrem by keeping somebody he knew had tried to kill her under the same roof, not holding back when Mustafa challenges him on Mahidevran’s behalf, and telling him very bluntly of the previous incidents, especially if Mustafa tries to argue that his mother wouldn’t do something like that. It wouldn’t have been something he ever intended to tell Mustafa, but it’s not like he can unring that bell once the words are spoken.

I wonder if Mahidevran would lie to Mustafa about the beating and the poisoning (the latter being the one I could see Mustafa being more horrified by, as Mehmed could have been killed), claiming innocence, or if she would try to justify her actions by claiming that she did it out of heartbreak and/or to protect him.

She’d be bound to be even more fearful of the risk that Hürrem and her children pose to Mustafa’s future when she is so completely out of favour.

I’d say that Ayşe Hafsa would be almost as furious with her as Suleiman, especially as Suleiman is likely to hold her responsible. When he let Mahidevran stay at the palace after the poisoning, he warned Ayşe Hafsa to restrain her, and that he wouldn’t tolerate another such incident.

Could lead to a very different story for Mustafa too, if he got told that he had to understand who his rivals were and not symapthize with them, only to break down and flee from his mother...running into Hürrem, of whom he demands, "Does it have to be this way?" and it's her own moment of truth in, "...No," before she leads him off to look after him.

It could be a moment when Hürrem looks at Mustafa and doesn’t see Mahidevran’s son, she sees a scared, confused child.

During the Janissary rebellion, her instinct was to protect and comfort him. That instinct could be triggered again.

Like, I know it's been debated that Hürrem being Mustafa's mother wouldn't be the magic fix people think it'd be, for any number of reasons, but I like giving them openings to work together for the same goal with that goal being the preservation of all of Suleiman's children, despite the odds.

The only sense in which I could see it being a potential fix is in the sense of the impact of all of Suleiman’s children being raised in a nuclear family, from a very young age. It’s not a guarantee that they’d all survive but it’d improve the odds.

But, yeah, 100% not over how the show basically scooped up one of the historical wife men and went, "Wait, he needs more Henry VIII to him!"

It’s insane, isn’t it? The real Suleiman might as well have his picture in the dictionary next to the word “uxorious”.

Even if the writers thought that they needed a rival concubine story to stir up drama, that should have ended with Suleiman and Hürrem’s marriage. Thanks to the time jump, Mustafa would be old enough to be the focus of concubine drama within a few episodes.

(A side detail I wasn't sure where to otherwise put: I learned only after the fact that Daye Hatun's name is never actually known in the show since "daye hatun" on its own is actually just a title intended for the sultan's wet nurse and caretaker. So, admittedly, no wonder Ayşe Hafsa trusts her so much and her children adore Daye.)

That fits with Suleiman saying that Daye Hatun practically raised him.

Though I assume that the character of Daye Hatun can’t have been Suleiman’s wet nurse, as she wouldn’t have had a child of her own. Her role was probably more like Lady Bryan’s as Lady Governess to Henry VIII’s children.

[redxluna]

Hürrem, whether from a sense of self-preservation or freezing up when attacked, didn’t fight back...

For me, this was one of those moments where, while the show can sometimes fall back into the old stereotypes when it comes to Hürrem, it's clear just how much they wanted it to be clear that, this time, she wasn't at fault and couldn't be blamed for what happened.

Like, she was as courteous to Mahidevran as possible, didn't fight back against her...you could, at most, claim her "too eager" to point the finger at Mahidevran, but, of course, she was?

Being caught in the act also means that baby Selim could be assumed to be the next intended victim. Who is going to take Gülşah‘s word for it that she wasn’t also going to kill the baby, aka. a potential future rival of Mahidevran’s son?

Oh god, good point! That element of it did feel a little underplayed in the show since, I think, by default, the targets would be assumed to be not just Hürrem, who Gülnihal had been mistaken for, but also the infant prince.

Does kind of make sense, given all that, that Suleiman demands whether Ibrahim is waiting for this murderer to reach him before this is finally handled.

Mahidevran seemingly getting away with hurting Gülnihal would probably harden a lot of hearts against her.

Oof, true, since Gülnihal is one of the few harem occupants who truly has done no wrong to anyone. (You could argue to Hürrem, I guess, but I'm team "we're not blaming her for that when she literally had no choice and was manipulated" so...)

The only "offense" Gülnihal could have had was that she served Hürrem (and her children! since it could be argued she shielded Selim from greater harm) and, even then, there are other ways to see her "handled" that wouldn't bring her harm yet would still remove her from Hürrem's service, like marrying her out.

If Ayşe Hafsa takes her personal attendants away, instead of replacing them with dedicated attendants, perhaps she would have Mahidevran served by concubines assigned the task of caring for her on a daily basis, to prevent another Gülşah.

It might be a case too where whoever is allowed to serve (or visit) her is treated to checks before entering and leaving to assure they're not smuggling anything in or out.

(I was about to mention checks being made to assure no one's taking bribes but...it'd have to be a truly green or desperate concubine to be tricked into that, I think, and that wouldn't be the pool from which Ayşe Hafsa and Daye would try to pull from.)

I’d say that Ayşe Hafsa would be almost as furious with her as Suleiman, especially as Suleiman is likely to hold her responsible. When he let Mahidevran stay at the palace after the poisoning, he warned Ayşe Hafsa to restrain her, and that he wouldn’t tolerate another such incident.

Yeeaaahh, she really would not have a leg to stand on there and, I have to admit, I'd kind of enjoy seeing that play out >//>

Thanks to the time jump, Mustafa would be old enough to be the focus of concubine drama within a few episodes.

That's honestly how I feel whenever folks say that the show needed more "drama." Like, okay, Suleiman didn't become immediately monogamous, so it could be possible to show his slow descent towards that (maybe him realizing, "Oh, I just...don't want to do this with anyone else anymore? Now that I know I don't have to.") but, after that, if there's a call for harem competitions between harem women to rise then the various prince's harems are literally the perfect place for that!

It was an element of the show so underutilized, I swear...

Though I assume that the character of Daye Hatun can’t have been Suleiman’s wet nurse, as she wouldn’t have had a child of her own. Her role was probably more like Lady Bryan’s as Lady Governess to Henry VIII’s children.

I think so too, I'm just a dork in that my mind goes, "Wait, I have to include the 1:1 translation!" lol.

(It does make me think, though, that, like Hürrem once suggested to her friend, Gülnihal kind of was on the fast track to be her Daye Hatun for a brief time.)

[reganx2]

Like, she was as courteous to Mahidevran as possible, didn't fight back against her...you could, at most, claim her "too eager" to point the finger at Mahidevran, but, of course, she was?

I wouldn’t even say that she was overly eager. If anything, you could make a case that she was fairly cautious, in the sense that she let Suleiman coax the identity of her attacker from her and, when she did speak, she gave him one syllable at a time so, if he had wanted to shut her down before she could finish naming Mahidevran, he could have.

Was she supposed to feign a head injury-induced inability to remember the details of the attack in order to protect Mahidevran? If she had done this, Suleiman would have gone on the warpath to find out who was responsible, and some poor soul would probably have been offered up as a scapegoat. Hürrem saw this play out over the theft of her ring and, in this case, Suleiman explicitly told her that he would have the person who hurt her killed.

She handled it well by getting Suleiman to come to her but it’s not as if he’d have been less furious over what happened if she’d come to the private chamber with visible injuries.

Does kind of make sense, given all that, that Suleiman demands whether Ibrahim is waiting for this murderer to reach him before this is finally handled.

I think that Ibrahim started sowing the seeds of his downfall in Season 1 by showing Suleiman that his loyalty to him was not absolute.

With the poisoning, Suleiman knew that Ibrahim was covering for Mahidevran. He didn’t punish him for it, but his reaction to Hürrem asking if he would be punished suggests to me that the thought had crossed his mind, and that what he said to her about how many times Ibrahim had saved his life was the point that had convinced him not to take action against him. I’d say that, as far as Suleiman was concerned, Ibrahim should have laid the matter before him and trusted in his judgement, and covering for Mahidevran was a sign of divided loyalty.

I’d be surprised if Suleiman didn’t wonder why, after Ibrahim found proof of Hürrem’s innocence re. Ayşe’s murder, Hürrem felt the need to make a public performance of penance to Mahidevran. Even if he was too happy to have her back to ask questions at first, surely he’d wonder later.

(Another plot bunny that’s been bouncing around is What if Suleiman had overheard the concubine exonerate Hürrem, and Ibrahim’s order that it was not to be repeated? Given that Suleiman and Hürrem’s laughter came through clearly from the private chamber to Ibrahim’s chamber the morning after the poisoning, Suleiman could easily have heard what was said.)

Then with the stabbing of Gülnihal, which everybody in the harem knew was aimed at Hürrem, Suleiman assumed that Mahidevran was involved and that Ibrahim was covering for her.

That's honestly how I feel whenever folks say that the show needed more "drama." Like, okay, Suleiman didn't become immediately monogamous, so it could be possible to show his slow descent towards that (maybe him realizing, "Oh, I just...don't want to do this with anyone else anymore? Now that I know I don't have to.") but, after that, if there's a call for harem competitions between harem women to rise then the various prince's harems are literally the perfect place for that!

Suleiman’s monogamy was, in itself, a potential source of drama and conflict within the harem.

On Hürrem’s first night in the harem, Nigar told her that all of the girls were prepared for the Sultan but, in the years between Hürrem’s first night with Suleiman and their marriage, there were only three other women who shared Suleiman’s bed (as far as the concubines know; they wouldn’t know about Victoria/Sadika, or that he never touched Mahidevran). Gülnihal spent two nights with him and was promptly forgotten. Isabella had one night, then disappeared. Mahidevran had at least some Thursday visits.

The rest of the concubines have a choice between attaching themselves to the service of one of the Sultanas, aiming to become Kalfas, or waiting around until they’re deemed too old and married off.

Ayşe Hafsa didn’t need to orchestrate conflict over wage increases to sow dissent in the harem. She could have just started marrying off the older concubines who had never been chosen for halvet, deliberately arranged a few less than advantageous marriages (more like the old cloth merchant Nigar faked consumption to deter than Batur Bey) with a concubine known to be close to Hürrem getting a much better match, so it looks like she’s using her influence to claim the best available suitors for her followers, while the rest of them are going to make mediocre matches.

Then, when Mustafa returns, the only concubines considered for him are the youngest and newest arrivals, not the ones who have been left in limbo for over a decade.

I also think that the show wasted an opportunity for drama by not having Hürrem follow in the footsteps of her historical counterpart by becoming more involved in politics, to the point where she ends up a close advisor of Suleiman’s, influencing Divan appointments, etc. Let Ayşe Hafsa worry about losing control of the harem, be relieved when Hürrem makes no move to challenge her on that front, and then livid when she realises that she’s been quietly building her influence outside the harem.

(It does make me think, though, that, like Hürrem once suggested to her friend, Gülnihal kind of was on the fast track to be her Daye Hatun for a brief time.)

Gülnihal was the one she trusted most with her children, at least until she left, so it’s fitting. Hürrem didn’t even allow herself to sleep after a difficult labour until she could entrust the newborn Mehmed to Gülnihal.

The scene where Hürrem is reunited with Mihrimah and baby Selim, and Gülnihal with Mehmed, after the Janissary rebellion is adorable.

[redxluna]

A missed opportunity from the show, to be honest, not to have the reason that Suleiman believes Mehmed to be destined to take the throne after him (and, therefore, to invest heavily in his upbringing) to be the result of him assuming that only a truly "blessed" child could survive a poisoning and be born without any side effects from it.

[reganx2]

I love this idea, and it makes sense from Suleiman’s perspective that he would assume that Allah saved Mehmed for a reason. Maybe the unborn Mehmed even gets some of the credit for Hürrem going from Death’s door to perfectly fine overnight, in the sense that he shared his blessing and/or strength with his mother.

The series missed an opportunity to showcase Mehmed as Suleiman’s favoured heir in Season 2B.

Mustafa was away for three years, with Suleiman apparently never visiting him at Edirne. Imagine if, after his return, he saw Suleiman spending a lot of time with Mehmed, training with him, talking to him about how to be Padishah, letting him watch Divan meetings, etc. Episode 55 could then leave him feeling torn, as he knows that his path to the throne will be a lot smoother if he’s the only adult Şehzade when Suleiman dies but, at the same time, he loves his father and siblings, and wants them to live.

[redxluna]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

There's so much complexity to dive into when it comes to how the system of the Ottoman Empire called for what were normal familial bonds or human emotions to be set aside and eroded down. And it could be particularly wild for Mustafa since he was, quite possibly, shown Mehmed after the deaths of his other siblings in 1521 and told, "Here is a life you can still treasure," despite every adult involved knowing he'd have to one day kill that brother if he wanted to ascend to the sultanate.

[reganx2]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

So far, I find that the heavy Mustafa bias makes him decidedly unsympathetic as a character.

Instead of trying to sell the idea that Mustafa should be Sultan because he’s the Most Special Snowflake to ever snowflake in the history of Special Snowflakes, they could have highlighted the fact that he was faced with a disadvantage that no previous Sehzade was.

He was the only half-brother against four full brothers born to a woman their father loved so much that he threw out the rule book for her. Suleiman, Hürrem and their children formed a nuclear family in a system originally designed around the rule of “one mother, one son”. Why not show the impact that exclusion from that nuclear family would have on Mustafa, instead of trying to sell the idea that he’s everybody’s favourite brother?

Let Hürrem wield political influence like her historical counterpart, and Mustafa has even more reason to worry that the deck is stacked against him.

Show the tightrope that Mustafa has to walk when he needs to court external support and to impress with his achievements to give him a fighting chance at becoming Padishah but if he is too popular and too impressive, he’ll be seen as a threat, not just by his half-brothers but also by his father.

Instead of the nonsense about winning his brothers over so they stand by him when the time comes, Ibrahim could have impressed on him the need to win his brothers over so they didn’t ally against him when they were adults.

They could have had a tragic character forced to play a deadly game of thrones where the rules could change at any moment, and the Padishah could advantage or handicap players if he so chose, somebody who sought and earned approval from others that he couldn’t get from his father, and whose popularity and potential led to his father seeing him as a threat rather than a worthy successor.

I’d take that over a Gary-Stu (Musti-Stu?) any day.

[redxluna]

You took the words right out of my mouth, to be honest!

It really is one of the greatest ironies to the show that all the show's efforts to depict Mustafa as a figure without flaw, the "perfect" heir, actually worked against just such efforts. What should be the meat of the character gets discarded in favor of rendering him overly flat and, more often than not, seemingly incredibly foolish and, much as people place this on Mehmed's head instead, naïve to the point of seeming a fool.

And that was just the impression I had watching the show!

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

[reganx2]

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

The writer in me apparently decided that I needed another maligned Queen to adopt, instead of letting me finish my Anne Boleyn or Daenerys Targaryen fics. Magnificent Century is too good at birthing plot bunnies. At least the two bunnies that were hopping most have combined, so hopefully it’ll work out. The brainstorming process is fun.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

I think that the series did Mahidevran no favours as a character by not acknowledging what a huge deal it was that Suleiman broke the one mother, one son rule with Hürrem, and by having her as Haseki Sultan when the title was created specifically for Hürrem in history.

Imagine if, as a Şehzade, Suleiman bent the rules with Mahidevran by continuing a sexual relationship after Mustafa was born, relying on birth control to ensure that there was no second baby. In episode 3, instead of Mahidevran’s pregnancy being celebrated, there’s a question mark over whether it will be allowed to continue. Mahidevran could hope that Suleiman will welcome the pregnancy, now that they don’t have to worry about Selim I’s reaction, especially when Mustafa is his only surviving child. He does not, so it’s aborted to comply with the rule. Mahidevran could blame Hürrem if she believes that, if not for her, Suleiman would have wanted their baby.

Now imagine how she would feel if, when Hürrem becomes pregnant for the second time, Suleiman celebrates and never considers forcing an abortion on her.

Later, Suleiman breaks with centuries of tradition by freeing and marrying Hürrem, creating the title of Haseki Sultan for her, and making her the next highest-ranking woman after his mother.

From Mahidevran’s perspective, Suleiman’s willingness to throw out the rule book for Hürrem when he never considered doing the same for her would not just be hurtful, it would be frightening because of the potential threat to Mustafa. In theory, any Şehzade can claim the throne but, in practice, Suleiman has a lot of power to stack the deck. Not all sanjaks are equal, even if there’s no specific crown prince’s province. There must have been some that were basically dead end assignments, or that were unfavourable because the distance from Istanbul would mean that they’d be the last to know when the throne fell vacant.

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

One point I find fascinating is that, in the account of the incident with the Russian concubines, Hafsa Sultan was sorry that she had given the one gifted to her to Suleiman, took her back and married her off ASAP, so it wasn’t just Suleiman deferring to Hürrem’s feelings.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

Tiny Mustafa went from being the apple of his father’s eye, told that “my Mustafa is worth the world”, to seeing his father dote on his half-siblings while spending less time with him and his mother. Even with Mehmed, he questioned whether his father would still love him, and whether he was still a Şehzade.

When Bayezid is born, and Suleiman is hugging Mehmed while Ayşe Hafsa cuddles Mihrimah in her lap, Middle-Sized Mustafa looks left out, as well as worried about the impact on his mother. He attends the naming ceremony (I think it’s the only one he attends, but I’m open to correction) but his expression is glum. I could see that being when it hits him that he’s something of an outsider in the family, and how it would spur him to want to impress Suleiman, not to mention have his father to himself for a change, by going on campaign.

I love the idea of Mehmed emulating Mustafa’s heroics and being praised while Mustafa was criticised. It would highlight that Suleiman looks on Mehmed as the next Sultan, and sees his heroics as a good sign for his future rule, while Mustafa is viewed as a rival by Suleiman, first to Mehmed, and eventually to Suleiman himself.

[redxluna]

I can't find it for the life of me, but I swear that, at some point, I spiraled off of Leslie Peirce's theory of Suleiman's historical return to Hürrem being influenced via his need to solidify the succession again, to consider what might've happened, if his mother permitted the return to Hürrem so long as he also tried doing the same with Mahidevran, who'd equally fallen pregnant quickly and conceived a boy. It's not what Suleiman actually wants to do, but he sees it as his only way to return to Hürrem so accepts.

Except, while Mahidevran falls pregnant, it tragically goes the same way it does in the show, while Hürrem realizes she's pregnant only after, giving birth to Mihrimah, who is beloved despite not being another hoped for boy. And so Suleiman keeps returning to Hürrem...and returning...all while Mahidevran grieves the chance that slipped through her fingers, in her eyes.

Oh! And, yes, it does seem like, in real life, Suleiman's family (outside of perhaps Fatma) weren't the horrible in-laws we see in the show. I do get some of the changes, though, because they had to draw on antagonists for her from somewhere! (In another life maybe it could've been the other concubine mothers of Suleiman who lost their children? I'm pondering...)

This, however, is the part where I turn into what I hope is only mild degrees of a dork as I realize ohmyGOD you're that Reganx. (In what's, no doubt, a song and dance you've heard before, yours were the first Tudor fan fics I read so, I'm having a goofy, "Beyonce?!" moment lol.)

It does, funnily enough, also make it a little less out of the blue (or so I hope) in bringing up that Suleiman thinking Mehmed to be "blessed" + the fact he's already prone in the show to have prophetic dreams thinking he's bound for the throne, makes me think of the fic where Henry has similar "visions" about Elizabeth and then becomes determined to make it real.

In fact, I could see it striking Suleiman even more since he dreams, not only of the infant Mehmed asleep on his throne, but of Mustafa (and Ibrahim) being the one to murder Mehmed (and all of his brothers along with Mihrimah and Hürrem).

[reganx2]

Except, while Mahidevran falls pregnant, it tragically goes the same way it does in the show, while Hürrem realizes she's pregnant only after, giving birth to Mihrimah, who is beloved despite not being another hoped for boy. And so Suleiman keeps returning to Hürrem...and returning...all while Mahidevran grieves the chance that slipped through her fingers, in her eyes.

Given that Suleiman would, in all likelihood, be annoyed and angry if his mother made her approval of him trying to have more children by Hürrem conditional on him also trying with Mahidevran, I suspect that he would use Mahidevran’s miscarriage and Hürrem’s successful pregnancy as proof that Allah only approved of him continuing with Hürrem.

Ayşe Hafsa did Mahidevran no favours in canon when she kept pushing Suleiman on her behalf. He didn’t like being told that he couldn’t banish her to the Old Palace for beating Hürrem half to death (and I’m surprised that there was no callback to this when Hürrem was accused of murdering Ayşe, and banishment was not an unthinkable disgrace in her case). When she pretty much ordered him to reinstate Thursday night halvets for Mahidevran, with the threat of withholding her blessing if he did not, he repeatedly invited Mahidevran to his chamber but never touched her.

I do get some of the changes, though, because they had to draw on antagonists for her from somewhere! (In another life maybe it could've been the other concubine mothers of Suleiman who lost their children? I'm pondering...)

I suppose the problem with using the concubine mothers who had lost their children as Hürrem’s antagonists would have been that these women would have had little power or influence to use against her. Imagine if Gülfem was Hürrem’s chief antagonist. Ayşe Hafsa thought well of her, and she was Hatice’s closest friend, but would that be enough to allow her to make significant trouble for Hürrem if Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice had nothing against her?

I would have liked to see more character development from Ayşe Hafsa where her view of Hürrem gradually evolved, instead of her being Team Mahidevran to such a ridiculous extent.

As for Suleiman’s small army of sisters, you’d think that there’d be one of them who, even if she didn’t like Hürrem as a person, was pragmatic enough to back her as the probable winner.

This, however, is the part where I turn into what I hope is only mild degrees of a dork as I realize ohmyGOD you're that Reganx. (In what's, no doubt, a song and dance you've heard before, yours were the first Tudor fan fics I read so, I'm having a goofy, "Beyonce?!" moment lol.)

That’s me. Crippled with writer’s block, alas, but I’m hoping that Hürrem might help break that.

It does, funnily enough, also make it a little less out of the blue (or so I hope) in bringing up that Suleiman thinking Mehmed to be "blessed" + the fact he's already prone in the show to have prophetic dreams thinking he's bound for the throne, makes me think of the fic where Henry has similar "visions" about Elizabeth and then becomes determined to make it real.

That’s one of my favourites out of my stories. Henry being Henry, he never realised that there was a reason his visions stopped when he was told of Anne’s subsequent pregnancies, not when she conceived.

In fact, I could see it striking Suleiman even more since he dreams, not only of the infant Mehmed asleep on his throne, but of Mustafa (and Ibrahim) being the one to murder Mehmed (and all of his brothers along with Mihrimah and Hürrem).

Given Suleiman’s naive hope that his children wouldn’t spill their brothers’ blood over the throne, combined with him hearing Mahidevran tell Hürrem that her children would die, it wouldn’t have surprised me if he saw Mehmed’s ascension to the throne as the scenario in which the maximum number of his children could live, in the sense that he wouldn’t expect Selim, Bayezid or Cihangir to challenge Mehmed, even if Mustafa did.

If Mustafa had died in a riding accident when he snuck away from the Edirne encampment in episode 25*, for example, Suleiman and Hürrem’s children would all have been under five years old. Selim was a year old and Bayezid newborn. Under those circumstances, could they have been raised to support Mehmed as heir?

* A death that couldn’t conceivably be blamed on Hürrem, who was the one who expressed concerns about the danger and Mustafa’s youth.

[redxluna]

...I suspect that he would use Mahidevran’s miscarriage and Hürrem’s successful pregnancy as proof that Allah only approved of him continuing with Hürrem.

Oof, you're not at all wrong there.

I'm even more struck, in a way, through the idea of how Mahidevran might react to realizing that was what Suleiman thought or even just being told that it was the "will of Allah" that she not be allowed to keep her child. It might make her cling to the idea that it's her own "proof" that Mustafa is even more "blessed" in his own right, but there's also a part of me that wonders if she'd have the "traitorous" thought of, "Well, Allah was never my god to begin with, was He?"

The show really only depicts the origins of those real life enslaved people who have traditional tales told of how it occurred (Hürrem and Nurbanu, but even Ibrahim are examples of this) but where Mahidevran was actually from or the manner in which she was presented to Suleiman is one big question mark.

I often, based off the tale of the supposed beating, where Mahidevran launched a defense of her rank against Hürrem's own possible "unworthiness" to serve the sultan, I tend to think that Mahidevran was abducted young then trained as a "gift" (perhaps in comparison to Hürrem) but it could be that she remembers a time where she had a different life and religion.

Ayşe Hafsa did Mahidevran no favours in canon when she kept pushing Suleiman on her behalf.

I do think a lot of it had to do with how Mahidevran had been her choice for Suleiman since, in the show, and, if that didn't already put the other woman in her pocket, so to speak, the utter reliance Mahidevran had had to have on her after losing Suleiman's favor definitely did.

Still, for someone that proved an otherwise seasoned player of the game, boy, oh boy, did Ayşe Hafsa stumble over how to influence her son when it came to the women in his life. Her initial attempts to remove Hürrem from his interest either just made him more protective of her or made him determined to establish his authority over hers through possessing her despite his mother's disapproval.

I think she thought that, if she just pressed hard enough, that Suleiman would cave and accept Mahidevran back, but there was truly no reason for him too.

And I am forever frustrated over how she tries to claim Mahidevran sending poison to the sultan's table, threatening the lives of her son and future grandson, is just a "mistake." If there'd ever be a moment for her character to take the first turn against Mahidevran (perhaps the full break happens after Mahidevran tries to act the Valide before Suleiman's even dead? it felt like the writers were going that direction, but then nothing was done with it) it'd be in that moment.

(I agree with the idea that Ayşe Hafsa deserved the right to gradually change her opinion, basically! Perhaps with one of her daughters overtaking her as being the crueler force, particularly since if she was portrayed as a former slave since, if so, Hatice's words of Hürrem needing a reminder of "her place" would hit hard.)

As for Suleiman’s small army of sisters, you’d think that there’d be one of them who, even if she didn’t like Hürrem as a person, was pragmatic enough to back her as the probable winner.

You really would!

I mean, I'll admit, some of the struggle, I think, is that outside of Hatice (and a little bit of Beyhan?) the writers kind of...forgot? About Suleiman's other sisters? Until they needed a convenient bit for the plot.

Şah, if actually set up to be Suleiman's half-sister, might've been perfect for this, but I've also poked around at the idea of one of the other daughters having presented Mahmud's mother in a certain AU and backing Hürrem (per said concubine mother's request) after the woman dies.

That’s me. Crippled with writer’s block, alas, but I’m hoping that Hürrem might help break that.

I will say (not to pressure, I'm just excited 😅) that this fandom often has such a drought of fics that I hope so!

I fear there's a call for more writers that are able to remove the bias enough to treat all characters equally, rather than just indulging in obvious revenge fics. (I don't want to preach what people can write, not ever, it's just...a lot.)

If Mustafa had died in a riding accident when he snuck away from the Edirne encampment in episode 25*, for example, Suleiman and Hürrem’s children would all have been under five years old. Selim was a year old and Bayezid newborn. Under those circumstances, could they have been raised to support Mehmed as heir? * A death that couldn’t conceivably be blamed on Hürrem, who was the one who expressed concerns about the danger and Mustafa’s youth.

So, for starters? This is legit a fascinating AU.

It links back to what made Hürrem's sons so standout too, which was, for the very first time, those competing for the throne would be raised alongside on another. Before, while some interaction was bound to happen, brothers would be raised separately (no shared tutors like in the show) as a way to effect the gradual separation from that natural familial bond, but such a thing couldn't happen for any of Hürrem's sons.

Hence why, I often feel as if any of Suleiman's sons were going to wanderer around, swearing that, if he took the throne none of his brothers would be harmed, it'd be Mehmed, not Mustafa. (Plus, some tension in terms of Mustafa being able to ask, "All your brothers?" and never being able to receive a clear answer.)

In February 1553 (about 8 or so months before Mustafa's execution), one of the Venetian ambassadors would write an account that, while we do have to take it with a certain grain of salt since the man couldn't have actually witnessed it, does suggest that the idea of Mustafa being a threat to his sons from Hürrem was an actual fear of Suleiman's:

“God give you a long life, Your Majesty, but I still have hope to be Sultan; and when this doesn’t happen, whoever the new Sultan is, I won’t be sad, because nobody can be afraid of me.” 

[…]

Süleyman allegedly sighed and said: “My son, Mustafa will be Sultan and will deprive you all of your lives.”

There were actual rumors (possibly a groundless effort to make the man seem even more "bloodthirsty" but still) too that Suleiman's father, Selim I, had had his other sons killed in secret, like he had his father, in order to assure Suleiman took the throne. It's weird then that the show had Selim I depicted as trying to kill Suleiman instead (all the more since...that was his only heir at the time??) but it could provide a launching off point for Suleiman to become convinced something had to be done, either bloodlessly or not.

[reganx2]

I'm even more struck, in a way, through the idea of how Mahidevran might react to realizing that was what Suleiman thought or even just being told that it was the "will of Allah" that she not be allowed to keep her child. It might make her cling to the idea that it's her own "proof" that Mustafa is even more "blessed" in his own right, but there's also a part of me that wonders if she'd have the "traitorous" thought of, "Well, Allah was never my god to begin with, was He?"

If she’s feeling cynical, she could think that, if it had been the other way around, her daughter would be the sign that she wouldn’t have another son, while Hürrem’s miscarriage meant that she and Suleiman needed to try again.

I often, based off the tale of the supposed beating, where Mahidevran launched a defense of her rank against Hürrem's own possible "unworthiness" to serve the sultan, I tend to think that Mahidevran was abducted young then trained as a "gift" (perhaps in comparison to Hürrem) but it could be that she remembers a time where she had a different life and religion.

Whatever about the real Mahidevran, I suspect that the Mahidevran of the series was abducted as a child, given her preliminary training in a noble or royal household, and then gifted to Suleiman at some point after he went to Manisa as governor. She exhibits quite a strong element of snobbery towards Hürrem over being sold in a slave market, which suggests that she considers her own background more refined and respectable.

It interests me that the Hürrem of the series has such a short timeline between capture and arrival at the harem, which may not have been the case for her historical counterpart. For the character, I think that it contributes to her early rebelliousness, and it means that she didn’t have the pre-harem training that other concubines, including Mahidevran, had.

And I am forever frustrated over how she tries to claim Mahidevran sending poison to the sultan's table, threatening the lives of her son and future grandson, is just a "mistake." If there'd ever be a moment for her character to take the first turn against Mahidevran (perhaps the full break happens after Mahidevran tries to act the Valide before Suleiman's even dead? it felt like the writers were going that direction, but then nothing was done with it) it'd be in that moment.

Do you think that, if Mahidevran hadn’t lied about Hürrem provoking the beating by saying that she was going to exile her, Mustafa and Ayşe Hafsa, that the palace would be hers and they’d be in chains, Ayşe Hafsa would still have protected her, to the point of objecting to Suleiman sending her to the Old Palace?

After Mahidevran stole Hürrem’s ring, she said that it was the last time she’d protect her, so I wonder if she would have kept her word if Mahidevran had not led her to believe that Hürrem was on a mission to get rid of them all.

One of the things that frustrates me most about Ayşe Hafsa’s reaction to the poisoning is that she tries to gaslight Hürrem with a pitiful excuse for a cover story about spoiled cream when she could have very easily established herself as a protector.

They had a perfectly good scapegoat in Hasibe, and her “suicide” gave them a valid excuse not to be able to proceed further with the investigation. They could even theorise that Hasibe was motivated by jealousy over Hürrem being the only concubine Suleiman had looked at since their first night together. Pretty much every concubine could be argued to have motive to want Hürrem out of the way if she was perceived as the barrier between them and a chance at the Sultan’s bed, promotion to the favourites’ floor, and potentially bearing the Sultan’s child.

“Yes, you were poisoned. The culprit killed herself. I’m assigning you a food taster so it doesn’t happen again.”

Hürrem already wanted Ayşe Hafsa to accept her, so winning her over could have been easy.

I don’t think Ayşe Hafsa ever said anything to Mahidevran about the poisoning.

If Gülşah had been caught in the act of stabbing Gülnihal, would Ayşe Hafsa have fought against Mahidevran (who would be bound to be assumed to be involved) being exiled? If she did, would Suleiman listen, especially when, not so long ago, Hürrem was banished with much less evidence?

(I agree with the idea that Ayşe Hafsa deserved the right to gradually change her opinion, basically! Perhaps with one of her daughters overtaking her as being the crueler force, particularly since if she was portrayed as a former slave since, if so, Hatice's words of Hürrem needing a reminder of "her place" would hit hard.)

What if Ayşe Hafsa being a Crimean princess was portrayed as a myth that was fed to new arrivals to the harem to exalt the Sultan’s mother?

They’d need to tweak the family tree so that more of Suleiman’s siblings are half-siblings, but that would have been doable.

It’d mean no Aybige, which would be a loss, but an Ayşe Hafsa who has more in common with her son’s concubines than her daughter(s) could have been fascinating. If the brothers Suleiman lost were half-brothers by different concubines, how would she feel about her son having four sons by one mother, and one son by another? It would also impact her view of Suleiman marrying Hürrem if Selim I never even considered doing the same for her.

I will say (not to pressure, I'm just excited 😅) that this fandom often has such a drought of fics that I hope so!

I’m excited to give it a stab.

The idea I’m playing with at the moment combines two What Ifs that grabbed my attention: What if Leo never came to Constantinople? and What if Suleiman was a loving, faithful husband?

Originally separate ideas, but they merged.

This is legit a fascinating AU.

Thanks.

I’d feel terrible for poor Mahidevran in that scenario, especially as she encouraged the idea of Mustafa going on campaign. Not that she was alone in that; Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice both seemed supportive. Suleiman only intended to let Mustafa watch the preparations, not to go on campaign. The timing would also be awful, given that Hürrem would literally be just out of bed after the birth of Baby #4/Son #3 when they got the news of Mustafa’s death.

Hence why, I often feel as if any of Suleiman's sons were going to wanderer around, swearing that, if he took the throne none of his brothers would be harmed, it'd be Mehmed, not Mustafa. (Plus, some tension in terms of Mustafa being able to ask, "All your brothers?" and never being able to receive a clear answer.)

To be fair, Mustafa probably wouldn’t give a clear answer about whether he’d challenge Mehmed for the throne.

If, hypothetically speaking, Suleiman changed the law to (a) give the Padishah the right to designate his heir, and (b) outlaw fratricide except in cases where a Şehzade attempted to seize the throne from the designated heir, I have trouble believing that Mustafa would just accept Mehmed being designated as Suleiman’s heir.

[redxluna]

It's one of those cases where Mahidevran's own snobbery could maybe get excused away through her having been in her higher status for so long, but I really do default to a similar background to her.

Particularly since it draws on further parallels for Hürrem to have with Ibrahim as a narrative foil since both of them would've achieved meteoric rises that overlooked others that had been their longer and felt more deserving. (Nigar's rather young for her own position too, so it could similarly be a similar case for her that influences how she guides Hürrem.)

Do you think that, if Mahidevran hadn’t lied about Hürrem provoking the beating by saying that she was going to exile her, Mustafa and Ayşe Hafsa, that the palace would be hers and they’d be in chains, Ayşe Hafsa would still have protected her, to the point of objecting to Suleiman sending her to the Old Palace?

It will sound silly, I know, but this is a hard one to tell for sure, if only because, in my mind, Ayşe Hafsa's moment of, "Oh, no, not that one," came when Daye reported Hürrem's boast to her, despite having left too early to realize it to be a joke.

But, at the same time, like other reactions from her that have been brought up, that Ayşe Hafsa takes such offense over this is, honestly, quite strange.

It's similar to the reaction I have when people try claiming Hürrem entirely at fault for antagonizing Ibrahim since, at that point in time, she can be easily perceived as little more than a teenage girl on a power trip, carried away and making foolish boasts or threats. She literally can't be the first harem occupant to have behaved as such, so, if anything, the likes of Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim, who have established themselves far before her time, are more likely to laugh at her claims than take them seriously. (Akin to how Mahidevran actually winds up doing when Fidan tries to accuse Rümeysa of being the same.)

For her to order Daye to keep an eye on Hürrem, particularly given the rebelliousness already present in her, only makes sense, but it's similar to what you said about the whole poisoning incident in that wouldn't a true veteran of the harem realize that you need to get this girl to see the merits of being on your side as quickly as possible?

A Hürrem well-cared for by Ayşe Hafsa would be prone to be loyal to her, which would make her less inclined to act out and able to be kept an eye on (perhaps advocating for the Valide's side towards Suleiman once Mahidevran proves unable to keep favor).

But, nope, she just continually makes her own enemy...

Still, sorry, I'm getting off topic lol!

I'm not quite sure how much Ayşe Hafsa believes Mahidevran's claim about Hürrem here? I might be giving her too much credit, but, surely, anyone with even half a functioning brain cell would have to know anyone caught in such circumstances would want to project how it wasn't their fault and Mahidevran, in claiming Hürrem singled out even the but the Valide too, is laying it on thick.

But...given how the show operates? It really could go either way in the end.

If Gülşah had been caught in the act of stabbing Gülnihal, would Ayşe Hafsa have fought against Mahidevran (who would be bound to be assumed to be involved) being exiled? If she did, would Suleiman listen, especially when, not so long ago, Hürrem was banished with much less evidence?

So, while I wish, at times, this was more consistently communicated in people's reactions to her, the motivation to overprotect Mahidevran has less to do with herself and much more to do with her son. If you want Mustafa to succeed, then you need to ensure his mother's reputation is kept clean.

Gülşah might find herself quietly dispatched in an "accident," but they'd fight to keep Mahidevran's hands clean, I think. Although I'd live for a greater tension between herself and Ayşe Hafsa where the Valide Sultan, rather than replacing Hürrem's servants and restricting her movements, does all that to Mahidevran instead.

Removed of allies and under constant monitoring, I fear how Mahidevran would behave given her tendency to act rashly and have her own brand of emotional breakdowns (earned, to be fair, but still).

What if Ayşe Hafsa being a Crimean princess was portrayed as a myth that was fed to new arrivals to the harem to exalt the Sultan’s mother?

The loss of Aybige is hard (I'd want to bring her back somehow, but would she still be herself in a tweaked version of her story? I hope so!) but I do think this'd be great since it's a sort of, "Well, fuck you, if I need to create a new me, I'll write the story," approach to the new identities given while enslaved (and the expectation that it'd replace you're old one).

The idea of Nurbanu being a servant only pretending to be a noble, has been suggested around here before too, so I think that'd make for a nice parallel too between the two women's narratives.

The idea I’m playing with at the moment combines two What Ifs that grabbed my attention: What if Leo never came to Constantinople? and What if Suleiman was a loving, faithful husband? Originally separate ideas, but they merged.

Ooh, excited to see how these merged. (Making Suleiman less of a horrible husband is always my jam, though, I'll admit.)

I do wonder, in the AU where poor Mustafa dies young, if Mahidevran, unable to deal with her grief, might try to find some way to still blame Hürrem, despite it being clear she's not at fault. (Although I hope she finds a little bit of peace somewhere along the way.)

I have trouble believing that Mustafa would just accept Mehmed being designated as Suleiman’s heir.

Yeeaahh, that, admittedly, is why I was never really sold on the idea that Mustafa and Bayezid were both totally chill with one another despite both wanting the throne. At best, it just made them both sound like idiots.

[reganx2]

She literally can't be the first harem occupant to have behaved as such, so, if anything, the likes of Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim, who have established themselves far before her time, are more likely to laugh at her claims than take them seriously.

As of the first episode, Ayşe Hafsa and Daye Hatun must have been at the harem for close to three decades. They had to have seen their share of young concubines who developed swollen heads after being selected for halvet.

You’d expect the initial reaction to Hürrem’s boasting to be dismissing her as a foolish girl who doesn’t realise that she is only the latest in a long line of young women who will be used for temporary pleasure and then forgotten, but who will soon get a reality check. It’d only be after Suleiman keeps Hürrem with him for multiple nights, including the Thursday that’s supposed to be reserved for Mahidevran, and then interferes with harem discipline on her behalf, that they should begin to be concerned.

Ayşe Hafsa taking such offence to Hürrem talking about being Valide Sultan one day also doesn’t make sense. It’s not only a natural ambition for somebody in her position, it’s the job of a concubine who bears a son to do her utmost to prepare that son to be Sultan, in which case she’s going to be Valide Sultan if she outlives Suleiman. If anything, it points to Hürrem having a decent understanding of how the system works for somebody so new to the harem.

Ayşe Hafsa doesn’t seem to hold Hürrem’s behaviour on her first night in the harem against her. She asks how she’s settling in, warns Daye Hatun not to spoil her and, when Suleiman gives her the purple handkerchief, is only concerned that she should be properly prepared. She had no qualms about sending a girl who, just a couple of days ago, was screaming that she wanted the Sultan to die to her son’s bed, so freaking out about a little teenage boasting doesn’t make sense.

A Hürrem well-cared for by Ayşe Hafsa would be prone to be loyal to her, which would make her less inclined to act out and able to be kept an eye on (perhaps advocating for the Valide's side towards Suleiman once Mahidevran proves unable to keep favor).

If Ayşe Hafsa and Mahidevran had wanted to condition Hürrem to depend on Suleiman emotionally and to cling to him as her source of safety, they could hardly have done a better job. She was a traumatised, abused young girl who was highly responsive to kindness and protectiveness, and she was also eager for Ayşe Hafsa’s approval.

It would have taken little effort on Ayşe Hafsa’s part to win Hürrem over, especially given the void in her life that her mother’s death left. Ayşe Hafsa was even present when Hürrem called for her mother in her delirium after being poisoned. I’d say that Hürrem would not only have latched onto Ayşe Hafsa as a mother figure, she would have accepted her as a mother figure who was a strict disciplinarian, as long as she was treated fairly.

Instead, Ayşe Hafsa, who threatened to destroy Hürrem if she did anything to endanger her pregnancy, covered for the person who tried to murder her and her unborn child. In Hürrem’s shoes, I would have been terrified knowing that Mahidevran could try to kill “the dynasty’s” baby, and have people like Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim shield her from consequences.

So, while I wish, at times, this was more consistently communicated in people's reactions to her, the motivation to overprotect Mahidevran has less to do with herself and much more to do with her son. If you want Mustafa to succeed, then you need to ensure his mother's reputation is kept clean.

I’d have liked it if, when Mahidevran tried to blame Hürrem for provoking the beating, Ayşe Hafsa made it clear that she didn’t believe her. If nothing else, given that Hürrem’s grasp of Turkish was supposed to be shaky at this stage, she probably wasn’t fluent enough to express the sentiments Mahidevran attributed to her. She could then turn the subject to Mustafa, spell out the consequences if Suleiman finds out what happened, remind her that her first duty is to care for Mustafa and she can’t do that if she’s banished, and make it clear that, for Mustafa’s sake, Suleiman won’t be told.

Gülşah might find herself quietly dispatched in an "accident," but they'd fight to keep Mahidevran's hands clean, I think. Although I'd live for a greater tension between herself and Ayşe Hafsa where the Valide Sultan, rather than replacing Hürrem's servants and restricting her movements, does all that to Mahidevran instead.

I was thinking that Gülşah‘s guilt would be known to half the harem before Ayşe Hafsa finds out. Basically, Esma arrives a little earlier, in time to witness the stabbing, screams the palace down, and brings people running. No hope of covering up the identity of the culprit, and given how long Gülşah has served Mahidevran, I’d say that pretty much everybody would take it as a given that Mahidevran gave the order. In canon, Suleiman assumed that Mahidevran was responsible without knowing about Gülşah, and he was not happy with Ibrahim for covering for her.

Ironically, Hürrem being banished despite being innocent could be the only real argument Ayşe Hafsa can make against Mahidevran’s banishment, other than the impact on Mustafa. They were wrong about Hürrem, and she was punished unjustly. Do they want to risk a repeat of this when they can’t be completely certain of Mahidevran’s guilt?

I love the idea of Ayşe Hafsa swapping out Mahidevran’s servants and restricting her movements as an alternative to banishment. Given that Mahidevran was not only blameless, but had actually forbidden Gülşah to kill Hürrem, being believed to be responsible and practically put on house arrest would be terrible for her.

Mustafa was about ten years old at that point. Old enough to pick up on the fact that his mother is being punished, even if he is not told why. Would it damage his relationship with Ayşe Hafsa if he thinks she’s being unkind and unfair to his mother? Would he try to advocate for Mahidevran with Suleiman?

The loss of Aybige is hard (I'd want to bring her back somehow, but would she still be herself in a tweaked version of her story? I hope so!) but I do think this'd be great since it's a sort of, "Well, fuck you, if I need to create a new me, I'll write the story," approach to the new identities given while enslaved (and the expectation that it'd replace you're old one).

Maybe her storyline could be left more or less intact, apart from the blood relationship, if her father is an ally of Suleiman’s, and seeks sanctuary on her behalf.

Would Aybige’s grandfather have been the one who gifted Hürrem to Suleiman?

Ooh, excited to see how these merged. (Making Suleiman less of a horrible husband is always my jam, though, I'll admit.)

It took me longer than I care to admit to notice the Aşk-I Derün subtitle in the title card. Google Translate informed me that this translates to “deepest love” or “love from the innermost soul”.

I haven’t even finished Season Two yet, but from what I’ve gleaned about Seasons Three and Four, I’m likely to have frequent occasion to call Suleiman “you rat bastard!”.

That needs fixing.

I do wonder, in the AU where poor Mustafa dies young, if Mahidevran, unable to deal with her grief, might try to find some way to still blame Hürrem, despite it being clear she's not at fault. (Although I hope she finds a little bit of peace somewhere along the way.)

I imagine she would blame Hürrem at first, if only as a coping mechanism. Logically, she would know that Hürrem didn’t jinx Mustafa by saying that he was too young and that it would be too dangerous for him to go on campaign, but she will need somebody to blame.

It would probably be kinder to send Hürrem and her children back to Topkapi ahead of schedule so they’re not at Edirne during the mourning period. Their presence would be salt in the wound for Mahidevran, and I think that Hürrem, Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice would all be sensitive enough to know it.

In time, Mahidevran could find some peace doing charity work in Mustafa’s memory.

Gülfem, who lost her children, could also be a source of support.

Yeeaahh, that, admittedly, is why I was never really sold on the idea that Mustafa and Bayezid were both totally chill with one another despite both wanting the throne. At best, it just made them both sound like idiots.

Especially if they’re genuinely chill with one another, as opposed to one or both of them pretending that they are to lull the other into a false sense of security.

[redxluna]

If Ayşe Hafsa and Mahidevran had wanted to condition Hürrem to depend on Suleiman emotionally and to cling to him as her source of safety, they could hardly have done a better job. She was a traumatised, abused young girl who was highly responsive to kindness and protectiveness, and she was also eager for Ayşe Hafsa’s approval.

This, I'll admit, is basically @hurremsphoenix's thesis when it comes to early Hürrem! Even more so when, given the brief glimpses of Hürrem's mother, it seems as if trying to appease a stricter mother figure is a thing familiar to her. She clings so hard to Suleiman, in part, because she wants to be able to rebuild a sense of family for herself, so I don't think she lies to Ayşe Hafsa later on that, initially, she loved her and Hatice (and so was painted when it wasn't returned and she was schemed against instead).

Instead, Ayşe Hafsa, who threatened to destroy Hürrem if she did anything to endanger her pregnancy, covered for the person who tried to murder her and her unborn child. In Hürrem’s shoes, I would have been terrified knowing that Mahidevran could try to kill “the dynasty’s” baby, and have people like Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim shield her from consequences.

The sheer number of Hürrem's behaviors that are learned behaviors from the actions of the other high-ranked women around her is honestly wild. It's akin to the way in which none of them like being confronted with the bluntness Hürrem often wields at them, rather than pretty words. None of them like looking in the mirror (neither, ironically, does Ibrahim, but that's built on a whole lot of other things too).

I continue to be very, "???" about how they just assumed Hürrem would basically forgive and forget when it came to the near death of her own child.

If nothing else, given that Hürrem’s grasp of Turkish was supposed to be shaky at this stage, she probably wasn’t fluent enough to express the sentiments Mahidevran attributed to her.

Oh god, that would've been perfect, though! Just let Mahidevran ramble on and on...right up until the point where she's reminded of this and her face just falls.

The reminder of, "Mustafa should be your first priority, stop this," is an excellent recurring theme too, considering how Mahidevran is oft reminded of this...and doesn't always apply it, to her own detriment.

No hope of covering up the identity of the culprit, and given how long Gülşah has served Mahidevran, I’d say that pretty much everybody would take it as a given that Mahidevran gave the order. In canon, Suleiman assumed that Mahidevran was responsible without knowing about Gülşah, and he was not happy with Ibrahim for covering for her.

Ooh, yeah, the fact that Gülşah is so obviously an extension of Mahdevran's own authority within the harem (all that really lends her a veneer of authority too since she's so clearly not respected on her own) that her own misdeeds would be viewed as endorsed by her mistress is a thing I've called out before when it comes to Gülşah's treatment of Mehmed, refusing to address him or Hürem by the proper title or show respect.

To quote Drama Recaps, from a moment in recapping Legend of Ruyi: "Whether or not this is how Ruyi feels, her maids are an extension of herself [...] Whatever they do or say everyone is going to assume it was under your direction or they wouldn't be working for you."

If caught at her attempted murder, there'd be no way for Mahidevran to dodge the suspicion that she had given the order. All the more so since Gülşah, like a classic bully, to be honest, is prone to utilizing violence, only to fall apart the instant it is used against her. It'd be all to easy for her to say something that could be easily misconstrued (akin to that On the Edge of a Golden World moment of, "...Mary... wanted... be Queen...") and...oh boy, that's the ribbon to tie it all off with.

Even if her status was secured for her, the vanguard that had been Mahidevran's status would have been shot (particularly since, if wise, Hürrem would make sure the gossip stirred to a fervor and, honestly, despite all that happened, Gülnihal was still dear to her, and her rage over an innocent being harmed in her place might stir the pot enough on its own). It's possible that some figures would still offer support, claiming she'd only done the "right" thing in trying to rid the Ottoman lands of the "witch" and herself of a rival, but...are those really allies she'd want? All the more when she hadn't actually given the order?

Would it damage his relationship with Ayşe Hafsa if he thinks she’s being unkind and unfair to his mother? Would he try to advocate for Mahidevran with Suleiman?

I do think that, in not wanting to believe his mother capable of such an act, he'd try to search out evidence that could validate her. But, if he tried to advocate before Suleiman, I think he might, in turn, learn of how his mother had already tried to murder Hürrem and Mehmed before, and...ooh boy, that'd be quite the fallout, I think, if Mustafa confronted his mother with that.

Could lead to a very different story for Mustafa too, if he got told that he had to understand who his rivals were and not symapthize with them, only to break down and flee from his mother...running into Hürrem, of whom he demands, "Does it have to be this way?" and it's her own moment of truth in, "...No," before she leads him off to look after him.

Like, I know it's been debated that Hürrem being Mustafa's mother wouldn't be the magic fix people think it'd be, for any number of reasons, but I like giving them openings to work together for the same goal with that goal being the preservation of all of Suleiman's children, despite the odds.

Maybe her storyline could be left more or less intact, apart from the blood relationship, if her father is an ally of Suleiman’s, and seeks sanctuary on her behalf.

Ooh, true! Even more wild then would be how since it might be Aybige’s grandfather to have gifted Hürrem (wild that wasn't more explored in their relationship) then Ayşe Hafsa might've been similarly "gifted" by a relative of Aybige’s (possibly being the first crack in Ayşe Hafsa's carefully composed identity since, "A Crimean princess? But I don't know her?")

I haven’t even finished Season Two yet, but from what I’ve gleaned about Seasons Three and Four, I’m likely to have frequent occasion to call Suleiman “you rat bastard!”.

*casually pushing a mountain of spoilers back into the closet like "nothing to see here!*

But, yeah, 100% not over how the show basically scooped up one of the historical wife men and went, "Wait, he needs more Henry VIII to him!"

(A side detail I wasn't sure where to otherwise put: I learned only after the fact that Daye Hatun's name is never actually known in the show since "daye hatun" on its own is actually just a title intended for the sultan's wet nurse and caretaker. So, admittedly, no wonder Ayşe Hafsa trusts her so much and her children adore Daye.)

[reganx2]

Even more so when, given the brief glimpses of Hürrem's mother, it seems as if trying to appease a stricter mother figure is a thing familiar to her. She clings so hard to Suleiman, in part, because she wants to be able to rebuild a sense of family for herself, so I don't think she lies to Ayşe Hafsa later on that, initially, she loved her and Hatice (and so was painted when it wasn't returned and she was schemed against instead).

Between the flashback where Hürrem is worried about her mother punishing her if she’s late to church, and the fact that, after she disfigures Gülnihal’s face, it’s her mother who shows up in her dream to chastise her, it definitely seems like her mother was the family disciplinarian.

I agree that she admired Ayşe Hafsa from the beginning, and wanted her acceptance. After Hürrem returns from exile in Season 1, she’s thrilled when Ayşe Hafsa invites her to come with her and Hatice to Hatice’s new palace. When she finds out that the trip was a lure to get her away from the palace while Sadika was sent to halvet, she’s genuinely hurt that she would do this, even though she’s been trying so hard to behave perfectly.

They could have made quite a formidable team-up, if Ayşe Hafsa had allowed it.

Oh god, that would've been perfect, though! Just let Mahidevran ramble on and on...right up until the point where she's reminded of this and her face just falls.

I could see being caught in a lie by Ayşe Hafsa making Mahidevran even more anxious, as she is not somebody you want to alienate. It could also help drive home how much trouble she could be in if discovered. Hürrem, whether from a sense of self-preservation or freezing up when attacked, didn’t fight back, and Suleiman wouldn’t accept verbal provocation as an excuse even if she could sell that story.

If caught at her attempted murder, there'd be no way for Mahidevran to dodge the suspicion that she had given the order. All the more so since Gülşah, like a classic bully, to be honest, is prone to utilizing violence, only to fall apart the instant it is used against her. It'd be all to easy for her to say something that could be easily misconstrued (akin to that On the Edge of a Golden World moment of, "...Mary... wanted... be Queen...") and...oh boy, that's the ribbon to tie it all off with.

I could see Gülşah, when caught, whimpering her canon line about how Hürrem can’t make her Sultana sad anymore. Once somebody pulls back the bedcovers to reveal that Gülnihal was the victim, I could see her completely falling apart, so much so that nobody can get a sensible word out of her. Even if she later regains enough composure to say that Mahidevran didn’t know, that’s likely to be taken with a grain of salt because everybody would assume that she’d try to protect her, regardless of the truth.

Being caught in the act also means that baby Selim could be assumed to be the next intended victim. Who is going to take Gülşah‘s word for it that she wasn’t also going to kill the baby, aka. a potential future rival of Mahidevran’s son?

Even if her status was secured for her, the vanguard that had been Mahidevran's status would have been shot (particularly since, if wise, Hürrem would make sure the gossip stirred to a fervor and, honestly, despite all that happened, Gülnihal was still dear to her, and her rage over an innocent being harmed in her place might stir the pot enough on its own). It's possible that some figures would still offer support, claiming she'd only done the "right" thing in trying to rid the Ottoman lands of the "witch" and herself of a rival, but...are those really allies she'd want? All the more when she hadn't actually given the order?

I don’t think that Hürrem would even need to do anything to stir gossip to a fever pitch. Gülnihal was very well-liked, so her near-murder will be an outrage. Hürrem’s rage over Gülnihal being harmed could win her points with the concubines because it’s obvious that she is genuinely devastated by what happened. Mahidevran seemingly getting away with hurting Gülnihal would probably harden a lot of hearts against her.

Even those who would be supportive of Mahidevran getting rid of Hürrem are unlikely to dare to say so.

If Ayşe Hafsa takes her personal attendants away, instead of replacing them with dedicated attendants, perhaps she would have Mahidevran served by concubines assigned the task of caring for her on a daily basis, to prevent another Gülşah.

But, if he tried to advocate before Suleiman, I think he might, in turn, learn of how his mother had already tried to murder Hürrem and Mehmed before, and...ooh boy, that'd be quite the fallout, I think, if Mustafa confronted his mother with that.

I could see Suleiman, furious with himself for sparing Mahidevran over the beating and then the poisoning, thereby endangering Hürrem by keeping somebody he knew had tried to kill her under the same roof, not holding back when Mustafa challenges him on Mahidevran’s behalf, and telling him very bluntly of the previous incidents, especially if Mustafa tries to argue that his mother wouldn’t do something like that. It wouldn’t have been something he ever intended to tell Mustafa, but it’s not like he can unring that bell once the words are spoken.

I wonder if Mahidevran would lie to Mustafa about the beating and the poisoning (the latter being the one I could see Mustafa being more horrified by, as Mehmed could have been killed), claiming innocence, or if she would try to justify her actions by claiming that she did it out of heartbreak and/or to protect him.

She’d be bound to be even more fearful of the risk that Hürrem and her children pose to Mustafa’s future when she is so completely out of favour.

I’d say that Ayşe Hafsa would be almost as furious with her as Suleiman, especially as Suleiman is likely to hold her responsible. When he let Mahidevran stay at the palace after the poisoning, he warned Ayşe Hafsa to restrain her, and that he wouldn’t tolerate another such incident.

Could lead to a very different story for Mustafa too, if he got told that he had to understand who his rivals were and not symapthize with them, only to break down and flee from his mother...running into Hürrem, of whom he demands, "Does it have to be this way?" and it's her own moment of truth in, "...No," before she leads him off to look after him.

It could be a moment when Hürrem looks at Mustafa and doesn’t see Mahidevran’s son, she sees a scared, confused child.

During the Janissary rebellion, her instinct was to protect and comfort him. That instinct could be triggered again.

Like, I know it's been debated that Hürrem being Mustafa's mother wouldn't be the magic fix people think it'd be, for any number of reasons, but I like giving them openings to work together for the same goal with that goal being the preservation of all of Suleiman's children, despite the odds.

The only sense in which I could see it being a potential fix is in the sense of the impact of all of Suleiman’s children being raised in a nuclear family, from a very young age. It’s not a guarantee that they’d all survive but it’d improve the odds.

But, yeah, 100% not over how the show basically scooped up one of the historical wife men and went, "Wait, he needs more Henry VIII to him!"

It’s insane, isn’t it? The real Suleiman might as well have his picture in the dictionary next to the word “uxorious”.

Even if the writers thought that they needed a rival concubine story to stir up drama, that should have ended with Suleiman and Hürrem’s marriage. Thanks to the time jump, Mustafa would be old enough to be the focus of concubine drama within a few episodes.

(A side detail I wasn't sure where to otherwise put: I learned only after the fact that Daye Hatun's name is never actually known in the show since "daye hatun" on its own is actually just a title intended for the sultan's wet nurse and caretaker. So, admittedly, no wonder Ayşe Hafsa trusts her so much and her children adore Daye.)

That fits with Suleiman saying that Daye Hatun practically raised him.

Though I assume that the character of Daye Hatun can’t have been Suleiman’s wet nurse, as she wouldn’t have had a child of her own. Her role was probably more like Lady Bryan’s as Lady Governess to Henry VIII’s children.

[redxluna]

A missed opportunity from the show, to be honest, not to have the reason that Suleiman believes Mehmed to be destined to take the throne after him (and, therefore, to invest heavily in his upbringing) to be the result of him assuming that only a truly "blessed" child could survive a poisoning and be born without any side effects from it.

[reganx2]

I love this idea, and it makes sense from Suleiman’s perspective that he would assume that Allah saved Mehmed for a reason. Maybe the unborn Mehmed even gets some of the credit for Hürrem going from Death’s door to perfectly fine overnight, in the sense that he shared his blessing and/or strength with his mother.

The series missed an opportunity to showcase Mehmed as Suleiman’s favoured heir in Season 2B.

Mustafa was away for three years, with Suleiman apparently never visiting him at Edirne. Imagine if, after his return, he saw Suleiman spending a lot of time with Mehmed, training with him, talking to him about how to be Padishah, letting him watch Divan meetings, etc. Episode 55 could then leave him feeling torn, as he knows that his path to the throne will be a lot smoother if he’s the only adult Şehzade when Suleiman dies but, at the same time, he loves his father and siblings, and wants them to live.

[redxluna]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

There's so much complexity to dive into when it comes to how the system of the Ottoman Empire called for what were normal familial bonds or human emotions to be set aside and eroded down. And it could be particularly wild for Mustafa since he was, quite possibly, shown Mehmed after the deaths of his other siblings in 1521 and told, "Here is a life you can still treasure," despite every adult involved knowing he'd have to one day kill that brother if he wanted to ascend to the sultanate.

[reganx2]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

So far, I find that the heavy Mustafa bias makes him decidedly unsympathetic as a character.

Instead of trying to sell the idea that Mustafa should be Sultan because he’s the Most Special Snowflake to ever snowflake in the history of Special Snowflakes, they could have highlighted the fact that he was faced with a disadvantage that no previous Sehzade was.

He was the only half-brother against four full brothers born to a woman their father loved so much that he threw out the rule book for her. Suleiman, Hürrem and their children formed a nuclear family in a system originally designed around the rule of “one mother, one son”. Why not show the impact that exclusion from that nuclear family would have on Mustafa, instead of trying to sell the idea that he’s everybody’s favourite brother?

Let Hürrem wield political influence like her historical counterpart, and Mustafa has even more reason to worry that the deck is stacked against him.

Show the tightrope that Mustafa has to walk when he needs to court external support and to impress with his achievements to give him a fighting chance at becoming Padishah but if he is too popular and too impressive, he’ll be seen as a threat, not just by his half-brothers but also by his father.

Instead of the nonsense about winning his brothers over so they stand by him when the time comes, Ibrahim could have impressed on him the need to win his brothers over so they didn’t ally against him when they were adults.

They could have had a tragic character forced to play a deadly game of thrones where the rules could change at any moment, and the Padishah could advantage or handicap players if he so chose, somebody who sought and earned approval from others that he couldn’t get from his father, and whose popularity and potential led to his father seeing him as a threat rather than a worthy successor.

I’d take that over a Gary-Stu (Musti-Stu?) any day.

[redxluna]

You took the words right out of my mouth, to be honest!

It really is one of the greatest ironies to the show that all the show's efforts to depict Mustafa as a figure without flaw, the "perfect" heir, actually worked against just such efforts. What should be the meat of the character gets discarded in favor of rendering him overly flat and, more often than not, seemingly incredibly foolish and, much as people place this on Mehmed's head instead, naïve to the point of seeming a fool.

And that was just the impression I had watching the show!

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

[reganx2]

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

The writer in me apparently decided that I needed another maligned Queen to adopt, instead of letting me finish my Anne Boleyn or Daenerys Targaryen fics. Magnificent Century is too good at birthing plot bunnies. At least the two bunnies that were hopping most have combined, so hopefully it’ll work out. The brainstorming process is fun.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

I think that the series did Mahidevran no favours as a character by not acknowledging what a huge deal it was that Suleiman broke the one mother, one son rule with Hürrem, and by having her as Haseki Sultan when the title was created specifically for Hürrem in history.

Imagine if, as a Şehzade, Suleiman bent the rules with Mahidevran by continuing a sexual relationship after Mustafa was born, relying on birth control to ensure that there was no second baby. In episode 3, instead of Mahidevran’s pregnancy being celebrated, there’s a question mark over whether it will be allowed to continue. Mahidevran could hope that Suleiman will welcome the pregnancy, now that they don’t have to worry about Selim I’s reaction, especially when Mustafa is his only surviving child. He does not, so it’s aborted to comply with the rule. Mahidevran could blame Hürrem if she believes that, if not for her, Suleiman would have wanted their baby.

Now imagine how she would feel if, when Hürrem becomes pregnant for the second time, Suleiman celebrates and never considers forcing an abortion on her.

Later, Suleiman breaks with centuries of tradition by freeing and marrying Hürrem, creating the title of Haseki Sultan for her, and making her the next highest-ranking woman after his mother.

From Mahidevran’s perspective, Suleiman’s willingness to throw out the rule book for Hürrem when he never considered doing the same for her would not just be hurtful, it would be frightening because of the potential threat to Mustafa. In theory, any Şehzade can claim the throne but, in practice, Suleiman has a lot of power to stack the deck. Not all sanjaks are equal, even if there’s no specific crown prince’s province. There must have been some that were basically dead end assignments, or that were unfavourable because the distance from Istanbul would mean that they’d be the last to know when the throne fell vacant.

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

One point I find fascinating is that, in the account of the incident with the Russian concubines, Hafsa Sultan was sorry that she had given the one gifted to her to Suleiman, took her back and married her off ASAP, so it wasn’t just Suleiman deferring to Hürrem’s feelings.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

Tiny Mustafa went from being the apple of his father’s eye, told that “my Mustafa is worth the world”, to seeing his father dote on his half-siblings while spending less time with him and his mother. Even with Mehmed, he questioned whether his father would still love him, and whether he was still a Şehzade.

When Bayezid is born, and Suleiman is hugging Mehmed while Ayşe Hafsa cuddles Mihrimah in her lap, Middle-Sized Mustafa looks left out, as well as worried about the impact on his mother. He attends the naming ceremony (I think it’s the only one he attends, but I’m open to correction) but his expression is glum. I could see that being when it hits him that he’s something of an outsider in the family, and how it would spur him to want to impress Suleiman, not to mention have his father to himself for a change, by going on campaign.

I love the idea of Mehmed emulating Mustafa’s heroics and being praised while Mustafa was criticised. It would highlight that Suleiman looks on Mehmed as the next Sultan, and sees his heroics as a good sign for his future rule, while Mustafa is viewed as a rival by Suleiman, first to Mehmed, and eventually to Suleiman himself.

[redxluna]

I can't find it for the life of me, but I swear that, at some point, I spiraled off of Leslie Peirce's theory of Suleiman's historical return to Hürrem being influenced via his need to solidify the succession again, to consider what might've happened, if his mother permitted the return to Hürrem so long as he also tried doing the same with Mahidevran, who'd equally fallen pregnant quickly and conceived a boy. It's not what Suleiman actually wants to do, but he sees it as his only way to return to Hürrem so accepts.

Except, while Mahidevran falls pregnant, it tragically goes the same way it does in the show, while Hürrem realizes she's pregnant only after, giving birth to Mihrimah, who is beloved despite not being another hoped for boy. And so Suleiman keeps returning to Hürrem...and returning...all while Mahidevran grieves the chance that slipped through her fingers, in her eyes.

Oh! And, yes, it does seem like, in real life, Suleiman's family (outside of perhaps Fatma) weren't the horrible in-laws we see in the show. I do get some of the changes, though, because they had to draw on antagonists for her from somewhere! (In another life maybe it could've been the other concubine mothers of Suleiman who lost their children? I'm pondering...)

This, however, is the part where I turn into what I hope is only mild degrees of a dork as I realize ohmyGOD you're that Reganx. (In what's, no doubt, a song and dance you've heard before, yours were the first Tudor fan fics I read so, I'm having a goofy, "Beyonce?!" moment lol.)

It does, funnily enough, also make it a little less out of the blue (or so I hope) in bringing up that Suleiman thinking Mehmed to be "blessed" + the fact he's already prone in the show to have prophetic dreams thinking he's bound for the throne, makes me think of the fic where Henry has similar "visions" about Elizabeth and then becomes determined to make it real.

In fact, I could see it striking Suleiman even more since he dreams, not only of the infant Mehmed asleep on his throne, but of Mustafa (and Ibrahim) being the one to murder Mehmed (and all of his brothers along with Mihrimah and Hürrem).

[reganx2]

Except, while Mahidevran falls pregnant, it tragically goes the same way it does in the show, while Hürrem realizes she's pregnant only after, giving birth to Mihrimah, who is beloved despite not being another hoped for boy. And so Suleiman keeps returning to Hürrem...and returning...all while Mahidevran grieves the chance that slipped through her fingers, in her eyes.

Given that Suleiman would, in all likelihood, be annoyed and angry if his mother made her approval of him trying to have more children by Hürrem conditional on him also trying with Mahidevran, I suspect that he would use Mahidevran’s miscarriage and Hürrem’s successful pregnancy as proof that Allah only approved of him continuing with Hürrem.

Ayşe Hafsa did Mahidevran no favours in canon when she kept pushing Suleiman on her behalf. He didn’t like being told that he couldn’t banish her to the Old Palace for beating Hürrem half to death (and I’m surprised that there was no callback to this when Hürrem was accused of murdering Ayşe, and banishment was not an unthinkable disgrace in her case). When she pretty much ordered him to reinstate Thursday night halvets for Mahidevran, with the threat of withholding her blessing if he did not, he repeatedly invited Mahidevran to his chamber but never touched her.

I do get some of the changes, though, because they had to draw on antagonists for her from somewhere! (In another life maybe it could've been the other concubine mothers of Suleiman who lost their children? I'm pondering...)

I suppose the problem with using the concubine mothers who had lost their children as Hürrem’s antagonists would have been that these women would have had little power or influence to use against her. Imagine if Gülfem was Hürrem’s chief antagonist. Ayşe Hafsa thought well of her, and she was Hatice’s closest friend, but would that be enough to allow her to make significant trouble for Hürrem if Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice had nothing against her?

I would have liked to see more character development from Ayşe Hafsa where her view of Hürrem gradually evolved, instead of her being Team Mahidevran to such a ridiculous extent.

As for Suleiman’s small army of sisters, you’d think that there’d be one of them who, even if she didn’t like Hürrem as a person, was pragmatic enough to back her as the probable winner.

This, however, is the part where I turn into what I hope is only mild degrees of a dork as I realize ohmyGOD you're that Reganx. (In what's, no doubt, a song and dance you've heard before, yours were the first Tudor fan fics I read so, I'm having a goofy, "Beyonce?!" moment lol.)

That’s me. Crippled with writer’s block, alas, but I’m hoping that Hürrem might help break that.

It does, funnily enough, also make it a little less out of the blue (or so I hope) in bringing up that Suleiman thinking Mehmed to be "blessed" + the fact he's already prone in the show to have prophetic dreams thinking he's bound for the throne, makes me think of the fic where Henry has similar "visions" about Elizabeth and then becomes determined to make it real.

That’s one of my favourites out of my stories. Henry being Henry, he never realised that there was a reason his visions stopped when he was told of Anne’s subsequent pregnancies, not when she conceived.

In fact, I could see it striking Suleiman even more since he dreams, not only of the infant Mehmed asleep on his throne, but of Mustafa (and Ibrahim) being the one to murder Mehmed (and all of his brothers along with Mihrimah and Hürrem).

Given Suleiman’s naive hope that his children wouldn’t spill their brothers’ blood over the throne, combined with him hearing Mahidevran tell Hürrem that her children would die, it wouldn’t have surprised me if he saw Mehmed’s ascension to the throne as the scenario in which the maximum number of his children could live, in the sense that he wouldn’t expect Selim, Bayezid or Cihangir to challenge Mehmed, even if Mustafa did.

If Mustafa had died in a riding accident when he snuck away from the Edirne encampment in episode 25*, for example, Suleiman and Hürrem’s children would all have been under five years old. Selim was a year old and Bayezid newborn. Under those circumstances, could they have been raised to support Mehmed as heir?

* A death that couldn’t conceivably be blamed on Hürrem, who was the one who expressed concerns about the danger and Mustafa’s youth.

[redxluna]

...I suspect that he would use Mahidevran’s miscarriage and Hürrem’s successful pregnancy as proof that Allah only approved of him continuing with Hürrem.

Oof, you're not at all wrong there.

I'm even more struck, in a way, through the idea of how Mahidevran might react to realizing that was what Suleiman thought or even just being told that it was the "will of Allah" that she not be allowed to keep her child. It might make her cling to the idea that it's her own "proof" that Mustafa is even more "blessed" in his own right, but there's also a part of me that wonders if she'd have the "traitorous" thought of, "Well, Allah was never my god to begin with, was He?"

The show really only depicts the origins of those real life enslaved people who have traditional tales told of how it occurred (Hürrem and Nurbanu, but even Ibrahim are examples of this) but where Mahidevran was actually from or the manner in which she was presented to Suleiman is one big question mark.

I often, based off the tale of the supposed beating, where Mahidevran launched a defense of her rank against Hürrem's own possible "unworthiness" to serve the sultan, I tend to think that Mahidevran was abducted young then trained as a "gift" (perhaps in comparison to Hürrem) but it could be that she remembers a time where she had a different life and religion.

Ayşe Hafsa did Mahidevran no favours in canon when she kept pushing Suleiman on her behalf.

I do think a lot of it had to do with how Mahidevran had been her choice for Suleiman since, in the show, and, if that didn't already put the other woman in her pocket, so to speak, the utter reliance Mahidevran had had to have on her after losing Suleiman's favor definitely did.

Still, for someone that proved an otherwise seasoned player of the game, boy, oh boy, did Ayşe Hafsa stumble over how to influence her son when it came to the women in his life. Her initial attempts to remove Hürrem from his interest either just made him more protective of her or made him determined to establish his authority over hers through possessing her despite his mother's disapproval.

I think she thought that, if she just pressed hard enough, that Suleiman would cave and accept Mahidevran back, but there was truly no reason for him too.

And I am forever frustrated over how she tries to claim Mahidevran sending poison to the sultan's table, threatening the lives of her son and future grandson, is just a "mistake." If there'd ever be a moment for her character to take the first turn against Mahidevran (perhaps the full break happens after Mahidevran tries to act the Valide before Suleiman's even dead? it felt like the writers were going that direction, but then nothing was done with it) it'd be in that moment.

(I agree with the idea that Ayşe Hafsa deserved the right to gradually change her opinion, basically! Perhaps with one of her daughters overtaking her as being the crueler force, particularly since if she was portrayed as a former slave since, if so, Hatice's words of Hürrem needing a reminder of "her place" would hit hard.)

As for Suleiman’s small army of sisters, you’d think that there’d be one of them who, even if she didn’t like Hürrem as a person, was pragmatic enough to back her as the probable winner.

You really would!

I mean, I'll admit, some of the struggle, I think, is that outside of Hatice (and a little bit of Beyhan?) the writers kind of...forgot? About Suleiman's other sisters? Until they needed a convenient bit for the plot.

Şah, if actually set up to be Suleiman's half-sister, might've been perfect for this, but I've also poked around at the idea of one of the other daughters having presented Mahmud's mother in a certain AU and backing Hürrem (per said concubine mother's request) after the woman dies.

That’s me. Crippled with writer’s block, alas, but I’m hoping that Hürrem might help break that.

I will say (not to pressure, I'm just excited 😅) that this fandom often has such a drought of fics that I hope so!

I fear there's a call for more writers that are able to remove the bias enough to treat all characters equally, rather than just indulging in obvious revenge fics. (I don't want to preach what people can write, not ever, it's just...a lot.)

If Mustafa had died in a riding accident when he snuck away from the Edirne encampment in episode 25*, for example, Suleiman and Hürrem’s children would all have been under five years old. Selim was a year old and Bayezid newborn. Under those circumstances, could they have been raised to support Mehmed as heir? * A death that couldn’t conceivably be blamed on Hürrem, who was the one who expressed concerns about the danger and Mustafa’s youth.

So, for starters? This is legit a fascinating AU.

It links back to what made Hürrem's sons so standout too, which was, for the very first time, those competing for the throne would be raised alongside on another. Before, while some interaction was bound to happen, brothers would be raised separately (no shared tutors like in the show) as a way to effect the gradual separation from that natural familial bond, but such a thing couldn't happen for any of Hürrem's sons.

Hence why, I often feel as if any of Suleiman's sons were going to wanderer around, swearing that, if he took the throne none of his brothers would be harmed, it'd be Mehmed, not Mustafa. (Plus, some tension in terms of Mustafa being able to ask, "All your brothers?" and never being able to receive a clear answer.)

In February 1553 (about 8 or so months before Mustafa's execution), one of the Venetian ambassadors would write an account that, while we do have to take it with a certain grain of salt since the man couldn't have actually witnessed it, does suggest that the idea of Mustafa being a threat to his sons from Hürrem was an actual fear of Suleiman's:

“God give you a long life, Your Majesty, but I still have hope to be Sultan; and when this doesn’t happen, whoever the new Sultan is, I won’t be sad, because nobody can be afraid of me.” 

[…]

Süleyman allegedly sighed and said: “My son, Mustafa will be Sultan and will deprive you all of your lives.”

There were actual rumors (possibly a groundless effort to make the man seem even more "bloodthirsty" but still) too that Suleiman's father, Selim I, had had his other sons killed in secret, like he had his father, in order to assure Suleiman took the throne. It's weird then that the show had Selim I depicted as trying to kill Suleiman instead (all the more since...that was his only heir at the time??) but it could provide a launching off point for Suleiman to become convinced something had to be done, either bloodlessly or not.

[reganx2]

I'm even more struck, in a way, through the idea of how Mahidevran might react to realizing that was what Suleiman thought or even just being told that it was the "will of Allah" that she not be allowed to keep her child. It might make her cling to the idea that it's her own "proof" that Mustafa is even more "blessed" in his own right, but there's also a part of me that wonders if she'd have the "traitorous" thought of, "Well, Allah was never my god to begin with, was He?"

If she’s feeling cynical, she could think that, if it had been the other way around, her daughter would be the sign that she wouldn’t have another son, while Hürrem’s miscarriage meant that she and Suleiman needed to try again.

I often, based off the tale of the supposed beating, where Mahidevran launched a defense of her rank against Hürrem's own possible "unworthiness" to serve the sultan, I tend to think that Mahidevran was abducted young then trained as a "gift" (perhaps in comparison to Hürrem) but it could be that she remembers a time where she had a different life and religion.

Whatever about the real Mahidevran, I suspect that the Mahidevran of the series was abducted as a child, given her preliminary training in a noble or royal household, and then gifted to Suleiman at some point after he went to Manisa as governor. She exhibits quite a strong element of snobbery towards Hürrem over being sold in a slave market, which suggests that she considers her own background more refined and respectable.

It interests me that the Hürrem of the series has such a short timeline between capture and arrival at the harem, which may not have been the case for her historical counterpart. For the character, I think that it contributes to her early rebelliousness, and it means that she didn’t have the pre-harem training that other concubines, including Mahidevran, had.

And I am forever frustrated over how she tries to claim Mahidevran sending poison to the sultan's table, threatening the lives of her son and future grandson, is just a "mistake." If there'd ever be a moment for her character to take the first turn against Mahidevran (perhaps the full break happens after Mahidevran tries to act the Valide before Suleiman's even dead? it felt like the writers were going that direction, but then nothing was done with it) it'd be in that moment.

Do you think that, if Mahidevran hadn’t lied about Hürrem provoking the beating by saying that she was going to exile her, Mustafa and Ayşe Hafsa, that the palace would be hers and they’d be in chains, Ayşe Hafsa would still have protected her, to the point of objecting to Suleiman sending her to the Old Palace?

After Mahidevran stole Hürrem’s ring, she said that it was the last time she’d protect her, so I wonder if she would have kept her word if Mahidevran had not led her to believe that Hürrem was on a mission to get rid of them all.

One of the things that frustrates me most about Ayşe Hafsa’s reaction to the poisoning is that she tries to gaslight Hürrem with a pitiful excuse for a cover story about spoiled cream when she could have very easily established herself as a protector.

They had a perfectly good scapegoat in Hasibe, and her “suicide” gave them a valid excuse not to be able to proceed further with the investigation. They could even theorise that Hasibe was motivated by jealousy over Hürrem being the only concubine Suleiman had looked at since their first night together. Pretty much every concubine could be argued to have motive to want Hürrem out of the way if she was perceived as the barrier between them and a chance at the Sultan’s bed, promotion to the favourites’ floor, and potentially bearing the Sultan’s child.

“Yes, you were poisoned. The culprit killed herself. I’m assigning you a food taster so it doesn’t happen again.”

Hürrem already wanted Ayşe Hafsa to accept her, so winning her over could have been easy.

I don’t think Ayşe Hafsa ever said anything to Mahidevran about the poisoning.

If Gülşah had been caught in the act of stabbing Gülnihal, would Ayşe Hafsa have fought against Mahidevran (who would be bound to be assumed to be involved) being exiled? If she did, would Suleiman listen, especially when, not so long ago, Hürrem was banished with much less evidence?

(I agree with the idea that Ayşe Hafsa deserved the right to gradually change her opinion, basically! Perhaps with one of her daughters overtaking her as being the crueler force, particularly since if she was portrayed as a former slave since, if so, Hatice's words of Hürrem needing a reminder of "her place" would hit hard.)

What if Ayşe Hafsa being a Crimean princess was portrayed as a myth that was fed to new arrivals to the harem to exalt the Sultan’s mother?

They’d need to tweak the family tree so that more of Suleiman’s siblings are half-siblings, but that would have been doable.

It’d mean no Aybige, which would be a loss, but an Ayşe Hafsa who has more in common with her son’s concubines than her daughter(s) could have been fascinating. If the brothers Suleiman lost were half-brothers by different concubines, how would she feel about her son having four sons by one mother, and one son by another? It would also impact her view of Suleiman marrying Hürrem if Selim I never even considered doing the same for her.

I will say (not to pressure, I'm just excited 😅) that this fandom often has such a drought of fics that I hope so!

I’m excited to give it a stab.

The idea I’m playing with at the moment combines two What Ifs that grabbed my attention: What if Leo never came to Constantinople? and What if Suleiman was a loving, faithful husband?

Originally separate ideas, but they merged.

This is legit a fascinating AU.

Thanks.

I’d feel terrible for poor Mahidevran in that scenario, especially as she encouraged the idea of Mustafa going on campaign. Not that she was alone in that; Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice both seemed supportive. Suleiman only intended to let Mustafa watch the preparations, not to go on campaign. The timing would also be awful, given that Hürrem would literally be just out of bed after the birth of Baby #4/Son #3 when they got the news of Mustafa’s death.

Hence why, I often feel as if any of Suleiman's sons were going to wanderer around, swearing that, if he took the throne none of his brothers would be harmed, it'd be Mehmed, not Mustafa. (Plus, some tension in terms of Mustafa being able to ask, "All your brothers?" and never being able to receive a clear answer.)

To be fair, Mustafa probably wouldn’t give a clear answer about whether he’d challenge Mehmed for the throne.

If, hypothetically speaking, Suleiman changed the law to (a) give the Padishah the right to designate his heir, and (b) outlaw fratricide except in cases where a Şehzade attempted to seize the throne from the designated heir, I have trouble believing that Mustafa would just accept Mehmed being designated as Suleiman’s heir.

[redxluna]

It's one of those cases where Mahidevran's own snobbery could maybe get excused away through her having been in her higher status for so long, but I really do default to a similar background to her.

Particularly since it draws on further parallels for Hürrem to have with Ibrahim as a narrative foil since both of them would've achieved meteoric rises that overlooked others that had been their longer and felt more deserving. (Nigar's rather young for her own position too, so it could similarly be a similar case for her that influences how she guides Hürrem.)

Do you think that, if Mahidevran hadn’t lied about Hürrem provoking the beating by saying that she was going to exile her, Mustafa and Ayşe Hafsa, that the palace would be hers and they’d be in chains, Ayşe Hafsa would still have protected her, to the point of objecting to Suleiman sending her to the Old Palace?

It will sound silly, I know, but this is a hard one to tell for sure, if only because, in my mind, Ayşe Hafsa's moment of, "Oh, no, not that one," came when Daye reported Hürrem's boast to her, despite having left too early to realize it to be a joke.

But, at the same time, like other reactions from her that have been brought up, that Ayşe Hafsa takes such offense over this is, honestly, quite strange.

It's similar to the reaction I have when people try claiming Hürrem entirely at fault for antagonizing Ibrahim since, at that point in time, she can be easily perceived as little more than a teenage girl on a power trip, carried away and making foolish boasts or threats. She literally can't be the first harem occupant to have behaved as such, so, if anything, the likes of Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim, who have established themselves far before her time, are more likely to laugh at her claims than take them seriously. (Akin to how Mahidevran actually winds up doing when Fidan tries to accuse Rümeysa of being the same.)

For her to order Daye to keep an eye on Hürrem, particularly given the rebelliousness already present in her, only makes sense, but it's similar to what you said about the whole poisoning incident in that wouldn't a true veteran of the harem realize that you need to get this girl to see the merits of being on your side as quickly as possible?

A Hürrem well-cared for by Ayşe Hafsa would be prone to be loyal to her, which would make her less inclined to act out and able to be kept an eye on (perhaps advocating for the Valide's side towards Suleiman once Mahidevran proves unable to keep favor).

But, nope, she just continually makes her own enemy...

Still, sorry, I'm getting off topic lol!

I'm not quite sure how much Ayşe Hafsa believes Mahidevran's claim about Hürrem here? I might be giving her too much credit, but, surely, anyone with even half a functioning brain cell would have to know anyone caught in such circumstances would want to project how it wasn't their fault and Mahidevran, in claiming Hürrem singled out even the but the Valide too, is laying it on thick.

But...given how the show operates? It really could go either way in the end.

If Gülşah had been caught in the act of stabbing Gülnihal, would Ayşe Hafsa have fought against Mahidevran (who would be bound to be assumed to be involved) being exiled? If she did, would Suleiman listen, especially when, not so long ago, Hürrem was banished with much less evidence?

So, while I wish, at times, this was more consistently communicated in people's reactions to her, the motivation to overprotect Mahidevran has less to do with herself and much more to do with her son. If you want Mustafa to succeed, then you need to ensure his mother's reputation is kept clean.

Gülşah might find herself quietly dispatched in an "accident," but they'd fight to keep Mahidevran's hands clean, I think. Although I'd live for a greater tension between herself and Ayşe Hafsa where the Valide Sultan, rather than replacing Hürrem's servants and restricting her movements, does all that to Mahidevran instead.

Removed of allies and under constant monitoring, I fear how Mahidevran would behave given her tendency to act rashly and have her own brand of emotional breakdowns (earned, to be fair, but still).

What if Ayşe Hafsa being a Crimean princess was portrayed as a myth that was fed to new arrivals to the harem to exalt the Sultan’s mother?

The loss of Aybige is hard (I'd want to bring her back somehow, but would she still be herself in a tweaked version of her story? I hope so!) but I do think this'd be great since it's a sort of, "Well, fuck you, if I need to create a new me, I'll write the story," approach to the new identities given while enslaved (and the expectation that it'd replace you're old one).

The idea of Nurbanu being a servant only pretending to be a noble, has been suggested around here before too, so I think that'd make for a nice parallel too between the two women's narratives.

The idea I’m playing with at the moment combines two What Ifs that grabbed my attention: What if Leo never came to Constantinople? and What if Suleiman was a loving, faithful husband? Originally separate ideas, but they merged.

Ooh, excited to see how these merged. (Making Suleiman less of a horrible husband is always my jam, though, I'll admit.)

I do wonder, in the AU where poor Mustafa dies young, if Mahidevran, unable to deal with her grief, might try to find some way to still blame Hürrem, despite it being clear she's not at fault. (Although I hope she finds a little bit of peace somewhere along the way.)

I have trouble believing that Mustafa would just accept Mehmed being designated as Suleiman’s heir.

Yeeaahh, that, admittedly, is why I was never really sold on the idea that Mustafa and Bayezid were both totally chill with one another despite both wanting the throne. At best, it just made them both sound like idiots.

[reganx2]

She literally can't be the first harem occupant to have behaved as such, so, if anything, the likes of Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim, who have established themselves far before her time, are more likely to laugh at her claims than take them seriously.

As of the first episode, Ayşe Hafsa and Daye Hatun must have been at the harem for close to three decades. They had to have seen their share of young concubines who developed swollen heads after being selected for halvet.

You’d expect the initial reaction to Hürrem’s boasting to be dismissing her as a foolish girl who doesn’t realise that she is only the latest in a long line of young women who will be used for temporary pleasure and then forgotten, but who will soon get a reality check. It’d only be after Suleiman keeps Hürrem with him for multiple nights, including the Thursday that’s supposed to be reserved for Mahidevran, and then interferes with harem discipline on her behalf, that they should begin to be concerned.

Ayşe Hafsa taking such offence to Hürrem talking about being Valide Sultan one day also doesn’t make sense. It’s not only a natural ambition for somebody in her position, it’s the job of a concubine who bears a son to do her utmost to prepare that son to be Sultan, in which case she’s going to be Valide Sultan if she outlives Suleiman. If anything, it points to Hürrem having a decent understanding of how the system works for somebody so new to the harem.

Ayşe Hafsa doesn’t seem to hold Hürrem’s behaviour on her first night in the harem against her. She asks how she’s settling in, warns Daye Hatun not to spoil her and, when Suleiman gives her the purple handkerchief, is only concerned that she should be properly prepared. She had no qualms about sending a girl who, just a couple of days ago, was screaming that she wanted the Sultan to die to her son’s bed, so freaking out about a little teenage boasting doesn’t make sense.

A Hürrem well-cared for by Ayşe Hafsa would be prone to be loyal to her, which would make her less inclined to act out and able to be kept an eye on (perhaps advocating for the Valide's side towards Suleiman once Mahidevran proves unable to keep favor).

If Ayşe Hafsa and Mahidevran had wanted to condition Hürrem to depend on Suleiman emotionally and to cling to him as her source of safety, they could hardly have done a better job. She was a traumatised, abused young girl who was highly responsive to kindness and protectiveness, and she was also eager for Ayşe Hafsa’s approval.

It would have taken little effort on Ayşe Hafsa’s part to win Hürrem over, especially given the void in her life that her mother’s death left. Ayşe Hafsa was even present when Hürrem called for her mother in her delirium after being poisoned. I’d say that Hürrem would not only have latched onto Ayşe Hafsa as a mother figure, she would have accepted her as a mother figure who was a strict disciplinarian, as long as she was treated fairly.

Instead, Ayşe Hafsa, who threatened to destroy Hürrem if she did anything to endanger her pregnancy, covered for the person who tried to murder her and her unborn child. In Hürrem’s shoes, I would have been terrified knowing that Mahidevran could try to kill “the dynasty’s” baby, and have people like Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim shield her from consequences.

So, while I wish, at times, this was more consistently communicated in people's reactions to her, the motivation to overprotect Mahidevran has less to do with herself and much more to do with her son. If you want Mustafa to succeed, then you need to ensure his mother's reputation is kept clean.

I’d have liked it if, when Mahidevran tried to blame Hürrem for provoking the beating, Ayşe Hafsa made it clear that she didn’t believe her. If nothing else, given that Hürrem’s grasp of Turkish was supposed to be shaky at this stage, she probably wasn’t fluent enough to express the sentiments Mahidevran attributed to her. She could then turn the subject to Mustafa, spell out the consequences if Suleiman finds out what happened, remind her that her first duty is to care for Mustafa and she can’t do that if she’s banished, and make it clear that, for Mustafa’s sake, Suleiman won’t be told.

Gülşah might find herself quietly dispatched in an "accident," but they'd fight to keep Mahidevran's hands clean, I think. Although I'd live for a greater tension between herself and Ayşe Hafsa where the Valide Sultan, rather than replacing Hürrem's servants and restricting her movements, does all that to Mahidevran instead.

I was thinking that Gülşah‘s guilt would be known to half the harem before Ayşe Hafsa finds out. Basically, Esma arrives a little earlier, in time to witness the stabbing, screams the palace down, and brings people running. No hope of covering up the identity of the culprit, and given how long Gülşah has served Mahidevran, I’d say that pretty much everybody would take it as a given that Mahidevran gave the order. In canon, Suleiman assumed that Mahidevran was responsible without knowing about Gülşah, and he was not happy with Ibrahim for covering for her.

Ironically, Hürrem being banished despite being innocent could be the only real argument Ayşe Hafsa can make against Mahidevran’s banishment, other than the impact on Mustafa. They were wrong about Hürrem, and she was punished unjustly. Do they want to risk a repeat of this when they can’t be completely certain of Mahidevran’s guilt?

I love the idea of Ayşe Hafsa swapping out Mahidevran’s servants and restricting her movements as an alternative to banishment. Given that Mahidevran was not only blameless, but had actually forbidden Gülşah to kill Hürrem, being believed to be responsible and practically put on house arrest would be terrible for her.

Mustafa was about ten years old at that point. Old enough to pick up on the fact that his mother is being punished, even if he is not told why. Would it damage his relationship with Ayşe Hafsa if he thinks she’s being unkind and unfair to his mother? Would he try to advocate for Mahidevran with Suleiman?

The loss of Aybige is hard (I'd want to bring her back somehow, but would she still be herself in a tweaked version of her story? I hope so!) but I do think this'd be great since it's a sort of, "Well, fuck you, if I need to create a new me, I'll write the story," approach to the new identities given while enslaved (and the expectation that it'd replace you're old one).

Maybe her storyline could be left more or less intact, apart from the blood relationship, if her father is an ally of Suleiman’s, and seeks sanctuary on her behalf.

Would Aybige’s grandfather have been the one who gifted Hürrem to Suleiman?

Ooh, excited to see how these merged. (Making Suleiman less of a horrible husband is always my jam, though, I'll admit.)

It took me longer than I care to admit to notice the Aşk-I Derün subtitle in the title card. Google Translate informed me that this translates to “deepest love” or “love from the innermost soul”.

I haven’t even finished Season Two yet, but from what I’ve gleaned about Seasons Three and Four, I’m likely to have frequent occasion to call Suleiman “you rat bastard!”.

That needs fixing.

I do wonder, in the AU where poor Mustafa dies young, if Mahidevran, unable to deal with her grief, might try to find some way to still blame Hürrem, despite it being clear she's not at fault. (Although I hope she finds a little bit of peace somewhere along the way.)

I imagine she would blame Hürrem at first, if only as a coping mechanism. Logically, she would know that Hürrem didn’t jinx Mustafa by saying that he was too young and that it would be too dangerous for him to go on campaign, but she will need somebody to blame.

It would probably be kinder to send Hürrem and her children back to Topkapi ahead of schedule so they’re not at Edirne during the mourning period. Their presence would be salt in the wound for Mahidevran, and I think that Hürrem, Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice would all be sensitive enough to know it.

In time, Mahidevran could find some peace doing charity work in Mustafa’s memory.

Gülfem, who lost her children, could also be a source of support.

Yeeaahh, that, admittedly, is why I was never really sold on the idea that Mustafa and Bayezid were both totally chill with one another despite both wanting the throne. At best, it just made them both sound like idiots.

Especially if they’re genuinely chill with one another, as opposed to one or both of them pretending that they are to lull the other into a false sense of security.

[redxluna]

A missed opportunity from the show, to be honest, not to have the reason that Suleiman believes Mehmed to be destined to take the throne after him (and, therefore, to invest heavily in his upbringing) to be the result of him assuming that only a truly "blessed" child could survive a poisoning and be born without any side effects from it.

[reganx2]

I love this idea, and it makes sense from Suleiman’s perspective that he would assume that Allah saved Mehmed for a reason. Maybe the unborn Mehmed even gets some of the credit for Hürrem going from Death’s door to perfectly fine overnight, in the sense that he shared his blessing and/or strength with his mother.

The series missed an opportunity to showcase Mehmed as Suleiman’s favoured heir in Season 2B.

Mustafa was away for three years, with Suleiman apparently never visiting him at Edirne. Imagine if, after his return, he saw Suleiman spending a lot of time with Mehmed, training with him, talking to him about how to be Padishah, letting him watch Divan meetings, etc. Episode 55 could then leave him feeling torn, as he knows that his path to the throne will be a lot smoother if he’s the only adult Şehzade when Suleiman dies but, at the same time, he loves his father and siblings, and wants them to live.

[redxluna]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

There's so much complexity to dive into when it comes to how the system of the Ottoman Empire called for what were normal familial bonds or human emotions to be set aside and eroded down. And it could be particularly wild for Mustafa since he was, quite possibly, shown Mehmed after the deaths of his other siblings in 1521 and told, "Here is a life you can still treasure," despite every adult involved knowing he'd have to one day kill that brother if he wanted to ascend to the sultanate.

[reganx2]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

So far, I find that the heavy Mustafa bias makes him decidedly unsympathetic as a character.

Instead of trying to sell the idea that Mustafa should be Sultan because he’s the Most Special Snowflake to ever snowflake in the history of Special Snowflakes, they could have highlighted the fact that he was faced with a disadvantage that no previous Sehzade was.

He was the only half-brother against four full brothers born to a woman their father loved so much that he threw out the rule book for her. Suleiman, Hürrem and their children formed a nuclear family in a system originally designed around the rule of “one mother, one son”. Why not show the impact that exclusion from that nuclear family would have on Mustafa, instead of trying to sell the idea that he’s everybody’s favourite brother?

Let Hürrem wield political influence like her historical counterpart, and Mustafa has even more reason to worry that the deck is stacked against him.

Show the tightrope that Mustafa has to walk when he needs to court external support and to impress with his achievements to give him a fighting chance at becoming Padishah but if he is too popular and too impressive, he’ll be seen as a threat, not just by his half-brothers but also by his father.

Instead of the nonsense about winning his brothers over so they stand by him when the time comes, Ibrahim could have impressed on him the need to win his brothers over so they didn’t ally against him when they were adults.

They could have had a tragic character forced to play a deadly game of thrones where the rules could change at any moment, and the Padishah could advantage or handicap players if he so chose, somebody who sought and earned approval from others that he couldn’t get from his father, and whose popularity and potential led to his father seeing him as a threat rather than a worthy successor.

I’d take that over a Gary-Stu (Musti-Stu?) any day.

[redxluna]

You took the words right out of my mouth, to be honest!

It really is one of the greatest ironies to the show that all the show's efforts to depict Mustafa as a figure without flaw, the "perfect" heir, actually worked against just such efforts. What should be the meat of the character gets discarded in favor of rendering him overly flat and, more often than not, seemingly incredibly foolish and, much as people place this on Mehmed's head instead, naïve to the point of seeming a fool.

And that was just the impression I had watching the show!

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

[reganx2]

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

The writer in me apparently decided that I needed another maligned Queen to adopt, instead of letting me finish my Anne Boleyn or Daenerys Targaryen fics. Magnificent Century is too good at birthing plot bunnies. At least the two bunnies that were hopping most have combined, so hopefully it’ll work out. The brainstorming process is fun.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

I think that the series did Mahidevran no favours as a character by not acknowledging what a huge deal it was that Suleiman broke the one mother, one son rule with Hürrem, and by having her as Haseki Sultan when the title was created specifically for Hürrem in history.

Imagine if, as a Şehzade, Suleiman bent the rules with Mahidevran by continuing a sexual relationship after Mustafa was born, relying on birth control to ensure that there was no second baby. In episode 3, instead of Mahidevran’s pregnancy being celebrated, there’s a question mark over whether it will be allowed to continue. Mahidevran could hope that Suleiman will welcome the pregnancy, now that they don’t have to worry about Selim I’s reaction, especially when Mustafa is his only surviving child. He does not, so it’s aborted to comply with the rule. Mahidevran could blame Hürrem if she believes that, if not for her, Suleiman would have wanted their baby.

Now imagine how she would feel if, when Hürrem becomes pregnant for the second time, Suleiman celebrates and never considers forcing an abortion on her.

Later, Suleiman breaks with centuries of tradition by freeing and marrying Hürrem, creating the title of Haseki Sultan for her, and making her the next highest-ranking woman after his mother.

From Mahidevran’s perspective, Suleiman’s willingness to throw out the rule book for Hürrem when he never considered doing the same for her would not just be hurtful, it would be frightening because of the potential threat to Mustafa. In theory, any Şehzade can claim the throne but, in practice, Suleiman has a lot of power to stack the deck. Not all sanjaks are equal, even if there’s no specific crown prince’s province. There must have been some that were basically dead end assignments, or that were unfavourable because the distance from Istanbul would mean that they’d be the last to know when the throne fell vacant.

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

One point I find fascinating is that, in the account of the incident with the Russian concubines, Hafsa Sultan was sorry that she had given the one gifted to her to Suleiman, took her back and married her off ASAP, so it wasn’t just Suleiman deferring to Hürrem’s feelings.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

Tiny Mustafa went from being the apple of his father’s eye, told that “my Mustafa is worth the world”, to seeing his father dote on his half-siblings while spending less time with him and his mother. Even with Mehmed, he questioned whether his father would still love him, and whether he was still a Şehzade.

When Bayezid is born, and Suleiman is hugging Mehmed while Ayşe Hafsa cuddles Mihrimah in her lap, Middle-Sized Mustafa looks left out, as well as worried about the impact on his mother. He attends the naming ceremony (I think it’s the only one he attends, but I’m open to correction) but his expression is glum. I could see that being when it hits him that he’s something of an outsider in the family, and how it would spur him to want to impress Suleiman, not to mention have his father to himself for a change, by going on campaign.

I love the idea of Mehmed emulating Mustafa’s heroics and being praised while Mustafa was criticised. It would highlight that Suleiman looks on Mehmed as the next Sultan, and sees his heroics as a good sign for his future rule, while Mustafa is viewed as a rival by Suleiman, first to Mehmed, and eventually to Suleiman himself.

[redxluna]

I can't find it for the life of me, but I swear that, at some point, I spiraled off of Leslie Peirce's theory of Suleiman's historical return to Hürrem being influenced via his need to solidify the succession again, to consider what might've happened, if his mother permitted the return to Hürrem so long as he also tried doing the same with Mahidevran, who'd equally fallen pregnant quickly and conceived a boy. It's not what Suleiman actually wants to do, but he sees it as his only way to return to Hürrem so accepts.

Except, while Mahidevran falls pregnant, it tragically goes the same way it does in the show, while Hürrem realizes she's pregnant only after, giving birth to Mihrimah, who is beloved despite not being another hoped for boy. And so Suleiman keeps returning to Hürrem...and returning...all while Mahidevran grieves the chance that slipped through her fingers, in her eyes.

Oh! And, yes, it does seem like, in real life, Suleiman's family (outside of perhaps Fatma) weren't the horrible in-laws we see in the show. I do get some of the changes, though, because they had to draw on antagonists for her from somewhere! (In another life maybe it could've been the other concubine mothers of Suleiman who lost their children? I'm pondering...)

This, however, is the part where I turn into what I hope is only mild degrees of a dork as I realize ohmyGOD you're that Reganx. (In what's, no doubt, a song and dance you've heard before, yours were the first Tudor fan fics I read so, I'm having a goofy, "Beyonce?!" moment lol.)

It does, funnily enough, also make it a little less out of the blue (or so I hope) in bringing up that Suleiman thinking Mehmed to be "blessed" + the fact he's already prone in the show to have prophetic dreams thinking he's bound for the throne, makes me think of the fic where Henry has similar "visions" about Elizabeth and then becomes determined to make it real.

In fact, I could see it striking Suleiman even more since he dreams, not only of the infant Mehmed asleep on his throne, but of Mustafa (and Ibrahim) being the one to murder Mehmed (and all of his brothers along with Mihrimah and Hürrem).

[reganx2]

Except, while Mahidevran falls pregnant, it tragically goes the same way it does in the show, while Hürrem realizes she's pregnant only after, giving birth to Mihrimah, who is beloved despite not being another hoped for boy. And so Suleiman keeps returning to Hürrem...and returning...all while Mahidevran grieves the chance that slipped through her fingers, in her eyes.

Given that Suleiman would, in all likelihood, be annoyed and angry if his mother made her approval of him trying to have more children by Hürrem conditional on him also trying with Mahidevran, I suspect that he would use Mahidevran’s miscarriage and Hürrem’s successful pregnancy as proof that Allah only approved of him continuing with Hürrem.

Ayşe Hafsa did Mahidevran no favours in canon when she kept pushing Suleiman on her behalf. He didn’t like being told that he couldn’t banish her to the Old Palace for beating Hürrem half to death (and I’m surprised that there was no callback to this when Hürrem was accused of murdering Ayşe, and banishment was not an unthinkable disgrace in her case). When she pretty much ordered him to reinstate Thursday night halvets for Mahidevran, with the threat of withholding her blessing if he did not, he repeatedly invited Mahidevran to his chamber but never touched her.

I do get some of the changes, though, because they had to draw on antagonists for her from somewhere! (In another life maybe it could've been the other concubine mothers of Suleiman who lost their children? I'm pondering...)

I suppose the problem with using the concubine mothers who had lost their children as Hürrem’s antagonists would have been that these women would have had little power or influence to use against her. Imagine if Gülfem was Hürrem’s chief antagonist. Ayşe Hafsa thought well of her, and she was Hatice’s closest friend, but would that be enough to allow her to make significant trouble for Hürrem if Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice had nothing against her?

I would have liked to see more character development from Ayşe Hafsa where her view of Hürrem gradually evolved, instead of her being Team Mahidevran to such a ridiculous extent.

As for Suleiman’s small army of sisters, you’d think that there’d be one of them who, even if she didn’t like Hürrem as a person, was pragmatic enough to back her as the probable winner.

This, however, is the part where I turn into what I hope is only mild degrees of a dork as I realize ohmyGOD you're that Reganx. (In what's, no doubt, a song and dance you've heard before, yours were the first Tudor fan fics I read so, I'm having a goofy, "Beyonce?!" moment lol.)

That’s me. Crippled with writer’s block, alas, but I’m hoping that Hürrem might help break that.

It does, funnily enough, also make it a little less out of the blue (or so I hope) in bringing up that Suleiman thinking Mehmed to be "blessed" + the fact he's already prone in the show to have prophetic dreams thinking he's bound for the throne, makes me think of the fic where Henry has similar "visions" about Elizabeth and then becomes determined to make it real.

That’s one of my favourites out of my stories. Henry being Henry, he never realised that there was a reason his visions stopped when he was told of Anne’s subsequent pregnancies, not when she conceived.

In fact, I could see it striking Suleiman even more since he dreams, not only of the infant Mehmed asleep on his throne, but of Mustafa (and Ibrahim) being the one to murder Mehmed (and all of his brothers along with Mihrimah and Hürrem).

Given Suleiman’s naive hope that his children wouldn’t spill their brothers’ blood over the throne, combined with him hearing Mahidevran tell Hürrem that her children would die, it wouldn’t have surprised me if he saw Mehmed’s ascension to the throne as the scenario in which the maximum number of his children could live, in the sense that he wouldn’t expect Selim, Bayezid or Cihangir to challenge Mehmed, even if Mustafa did.

If Mustafa had died in a riding accident when he snuck away from the Edirne encampment in episode 25*, for example, Suleiman and Hürrem’s children would all have been under five years old. Selim was a year old and Bayezid newborn. Under those circumstances, could they have been raised to support Mehmed as heir?

* A death that couldn’t conceivably be blamed on Hürrem, who was the one who expressed concerns about the danger and Mustafa’s youth.

[redxluna]

...I suspect that he would use Mahidevran’s miscarriage and Hürrem’s successful pregnancy as proof that Allah only approved of him continuing with Hürrem.

Oof, you're not at all wrong there.

I'm even more struck, in a way, through the idea of how Mahidevran might react to realizing that was what Suleiman thought or even just being told that it was the "will of Allah" that she not be allowed to keep her child. It might make her cling to the idea that it's her own "proof" that Mustafa is even more "blessed" in his own right, but there's also a part of me that wonders if she'd have the "traitorous" thought of, "Well, Allah was never my god to begin with, was He?"

The show really only depicts the origins of those real life enslaved people who have traditional tales told of how it occurred (Hürrem and Nurbanu, but even Ibrahim are examples of this) but where Mahidevran was actually from or the manner in which she was presented to Suleiman is one big question mark.

I often, based off the tale of the supposed beating, where Mahidevran launched a defense of her rank against Hürrem's own possible "unworthiness" to serve the sultan, I tend to think that Mahidevran was abducted young then trained as a "gift" (perhaps in comparison to Hürrem) but it could be that she remembers a time where she had a different life and religion.

Ayşe Hafsa did Mahidevran no favours in canon when she kept pushing Suleiman on her behalf.

I do think a lot of it had to do with how Mahidevran had been her choice for Suleiman since, in the show, and, if that didn't already put the other woman in her pocket, so to speak, the utter reliance Mahidevran had had to have on her after losing Suleiman's favor definitely did.

Still, for someone that proved an otherwise seasoned player of the game, boy, oh boy, did Ayşe Hafsa stumble over how to influence her son when it came to the women in his life. Her initial attempts to remove Hürrem from his interest either just made him more protective of her or made him determined to establish his authority over hers through possessing her despite his mother's disapproval.

I think she thought that, if she just pressed hard enough, that Suleiman would cave and accept Mahidevran back, but there was truly no reason for him too.

And I am forever frustrated over how she tries to claim Mahidevran sending poison to the sultan's table, threatening the lives of her son and future grandson, is just a "mistake." If there'd ever be a moment for her character to take the first turn against Mahidevran (perhaps the full break happens after Mahidevran tries to act the Valide before Suleiman's even dead? it felt like the writers were going that direction, but then nothing was done with it) it'd be in that moment.

(I agree with the idea that Ayşe Hafsa deserved the right to gradually change her opinion, basically! Perhaps with one of her daughters overtaking her as being the crueler force, particularly since if she was portrayed as a former slave since, if so, Hatice's words of Hürrem needing a reminder of "her place" would hit hard.)

As for Suleiman’s small army of sisters, you’d think that there’d be one of them who, even if she didn’t like Hürrem as a person, was pragmatic enough to back her as the probable winner.

You really would!

I mean, I'll admit, some of the struggle, I think, is that outside of Hatice (and a little bit of Beyhan?) the writers kind of...forgot? About Suleiman's other sisters? Until they needed a convenient bit for the plot.

Şah, if actually set up to be Suleiman's half-sister, might've been perfect for this, but I've also poked around at the idea of one of the other daughters having presented Mahmud's mother in a certain AU and backing Hürrem (per said concubine mother's request) after the woman dies.

That’s me. Crippled with writer’s block, alas, but I’m hoping that Hürrem might help break that.

I will say (not to pressure, I'm just excited 😅) that this fandom often has such a drought of fics that I hope so!

I fear there's a call for more writers that are able to remove the bias enough to treat all characters equally, rather than just indulging in obvious revenge fics. (I don't want to preach what people can write, not ever, it's just...a lot.)

If Mustafa had died in a riding accident when he snuck away from the Edirne encampment in episode 25*, for example, Suleiman and Hürrem’s children would all have been under five years old. Selim was a year old and Bayezid newborn. Under those circumstances, could they have been raised to support Mehmed as heir? * A death that couldn’t conceivably be blamed on Hürrem, who was the one who expressed concerns about the danger and Mustafa’s youth.

So, for starters? This is legit a fascinating AU.

It links back to what made Hürrem's sons so standout too, which was, for the very first time, those competing for the throne would be raised alongside on another. Before, while some interaction was bound to happen, brothers would be raised separately (no shared tutors like in the show) as a way to effect the gradual separation from that natural familial bond, but such a thing couldn't happen for any of Hürrem's sons.

Hence why, I often feel as if any of Suleiman's sons were going to wanderer around, swearing that, if he took the throne none of his brothers would be harmed, it'd be Mehmed, not Mustafa. (Plus, some tension in terms of Mustafa being able to ask, "All your brothers?" and never being able to receive a clear answer.)

In February 1553 (about 8 or so months before Mustafa's execution), one of the Venetian ambassadors would write an account that, while we do have to take it with a certain grain of salt since the man couldn't have actually witnessed it, does suggest that the idea of Mustafa being a threat to his sons from Hürrem was an actual fear of Suleiman's:

“God give you a long life, Your Majesty, but I still have hope to be Sultan; and when this doesn’t happen, whoever the new Sultan is, I won’t be sad, because nobody can be afraid of me.” 

[…]

Süleyman allegedly sighed and said: “My son, Mustafa will be Sultan and will deprive you all of your lives.”

There were actual rumors (possibly a groundless effort to make the man seem even more "bloodthirsty" but still) too that Suleiman's father, Selim I, had had his other sons killed in secret, like he had his father, in order to assure Suleiman took the throne. It's weird then that the show had Selim I depicted as trying to kill Suleiman instead (all the more since...that was his only heir at the time??) but it could provide a launching off point for Suleiman to become convinced something had to be done, either bloodlessly or not.

[reganx2]

I'm even more struck, in a way, through the idea of how Mahidevran might react to realizing that was what Suleiman thought or even just being told that it was the "will of Allah" that she not be allowed to keep her child. It might make her cling to the idea that it's her own "proof" that Mustafa is even more "blessed" in his own right, but there's also a part of me that wonders if she'd have the "traitorous" thought of, "Well, Allah was never my god to begin with, was He?"

If she’s feeling cynical, she could think that, if it had been the other way around, her daughter would be the sign that she wouldn’t have another son, while Hürrem’s miscarriage meant that she and Suleiman needed to try again.

I often, based off the tale of the supposed beating, where Mahidevran launched a defense of her rank against Hürrem's own possible "unworthiness" to serve the sultan, I tend to think that Mahidevran was abducted young then trained as a "gift" (perhaps in comparison to Hürrem) but it could be that she remembers a time where she had a different life and religion.

Whatever about the real Mahidevran, I suspect that the Mahidevran of the series was abducted as a child, given her preliminary training in a noble or royal household, and then gifted to Suleiman at some point after he went to Manisa as governor. She exhibits quite a strong element of snobbery towards Hürrem over being sold in a slave market, which suggests that she considers her own background more refined and respectable.

It interests me that the Hürrem of the series has such a short timeline between capture and arrival at the harem, which may not have been the case for her historical counterpart. For the character, I think that it contributes to her early rebelliousness, and it means that she didn’t have the pre-harem training that other concubines, including Mahidevran, had.

And I am forever frustrated over how she tries to claim Mahidevran sending poison to the sultan's table, threatening the lives of her son and future grandson, is just a "mistake." If there'd ever be a moment for her character to take the first turn against Mahidevran (perhaps the full break happens after Mahidevran tries to act the Valide before Suleiman's even dead? it felt like the writers were going that direction, but then nothing was done with it) it'd be in that moment.

Do you think that, if Mahidevran hadn’t lied about Hürrem provoking the beating by saying that she was going to exile her, Mustafa and Ayşe Hafsa, that the palace would be hers and they’d be in chains, Ayşe Hafsa would still have protected her, to the point of objecting to Suleiman sending her to the Old Palace?

After Mahidevran stole Hürrem’s ring, she said that it was the last time she’d protect her, so I wonder if she would have kept her word if Mahidevran had not led her to believe that Hürrem was on a mission to get rid of them all.

One of the things that frustrates me most about Ayşe Hafsa’s reaction to the poisoning is that she tries to gaslight Hürrem with a pitiful excuse for a cover story about spoiled cream when she could have very easily established herself as a protector.

They had a perfectly good scapegoat in Hasibe, and her “suicide” gave them a valid excuse not to be able to proceed further with the investigation. They could even theorise that Hasibe was motivated by jealousy over Hürrem being the only concubine Suleiman had looked at since their first night together. Pretty much every concubine could be argued to have motive to want Hürrem out of the way if she was perceived as the barrier between them and a chance at the Sultan’s bed, promotion to the favourites’ floor, and potentially bearing the Sultan’s child.

“Yes, you were poisoned. The culprit killed herself. I’m assigning you a food taster so it doesn’t happen again.”

Hürrem already wanted Ayşe Hafsa to accept her, so winning her over could have been easy.

I don’t think Ayşe Hafsa ever said anything to Mahidevran about the poisoning.

If Gülşah had been caught in the act of stabbing Gülnihal, would Ayşe Hafsa have fought against Mahidevran (who would be bound to be assumed to be involved) being exiled? If she did, would Suleiman listen, especially when, not so long ago, Hürrem was banished with much less evidence?

(I agree with the idea that Ayşe Hafsa deserved the right to gradually change her opinion, basically! Perhaps with one of her daughters overtaking her as being the crueler force, particularly since if she was portrayed as a former slave since, if so, Hatice's words of Hürrem needing a reminder of "her place" would hit hard.)

What if Ayşe Hafsa being a Crimean princess was portrayed as a myth that was fed to new arrivals to the harem to exalt the Sultan’s mother?

They’d need to tweak the family tree so that more of Suleiman’s siblings are half-siblings, but that would have been doable.

It’d mean no Aybige, which would be a loss, but an Ayşe Hafsa who has more in common with her son’s concubines than her daughter(s) could have been fascinating. If the brothers Suleiman lost were half-brothers by different concubines, how would she feel about her son having four sons by one mother, and one son by another? It would also impact her view of Suleiman marrying Hürrem if Selim I never even considered doing the same for her.

I will say (not to pressure, I'm just excited 😅) that this fandom often has such a drought of fics that I hope so!

I’m excited to give it a stab.

The idea I’m playing with at the moment combines two What Ifs that grabbed my attention: What if Leo never came to Constantinople? and What if Suleiman was a loving, faithful husband?

Originally separate ideas, but they merged.

This is legit a fascinating AU.

Thanks.

I’d feel terrible for poor Mahidevran in that scenario, especially as she encouraged the idea of Mustafa going on campaign. Not that she was alone in that; Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice both seemed supportive. Suleiman only intended to let Mustafa watch the preparations, not to go on campaign. The timing would also be awful, given that Hürrem would literally be just out of bed after the birth of Baby #4/Son #3 when they got the news of Mustafa’s death.

Hence why, I often feel as if any of Suleiman's sons were going to wanderer around, swearing that, if he took the throne none of his brothers would be harmed, it'd be Mehmed, not Mustafa. (Plus, some tension in terms of Mustafa being able to ask, "All your brothers?" and never being able to receive a clear answer.)

To be fair, Mustafa probably wouldn’t give a clear answer about whether he’d challenge Mehmed for the throne.

If, hypothetically speaking, Suleiman changed the law to (a) give the Padishah the right to designate his heir, and (b) outlaw fratricide except in cases where a Şehzade attempted to seize the throne from the designated heir, I have trouble believing that Mustafa would just accept Mehmed being designated as Suleiman’s heir.

[redxluna]

A missed opportunity from the show, to be honest, not to have the reason that Suleiman believes Mehmed to be destined to take the throne after him (and, therefore, to invest heavily in his upbringing) to be the result of him assuming that only a truly "blessed" child could survive a poisoning and be born without any side effects from it.

[reganx2]

I love this idea, and it makes sense from Suleiman’s perspective that he would assume that Allah saved Mehmed for a reason. Maybe the unborn Mehmed even gets some of the credit for Hürrem going from Death’s door to perfectly fine overnight, in the sense that he shared his blessing and/or strength with his mother.

The series missed an opportunity to showcase Mehmed as Suleiman’s favoured heir in Season 2B.

Mustafa was away for three years, with Suleiman apparently never visiting him at Edirne. Imagine if, after his return, he saw Suleiman spending a lot of time with Mehmed, training with him, talking to him about how to be Padishah, letting him watch Divan meetings, etc. Episode 55 could then leave him feeling torn, as he knows that his path to the throne will be a lot smoother if he’s the only adult Şehzade when Suleiman dies but, at the same time, he loves his father and siblings, and wants them to live.

[redxluna]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

There's so much complexity to dive into when it comes to how the system of the Ottoman Empire called for what were normal familial bonds or human emotions to be set aside and eroded down. And it could be particularly wild for Mustafa since he was, quite possibly, shown Mehmed after the deaths of his other siblings in 1521 and told, "Here is a life you can still treasure," despite every adult involved knowing he'd have to one day kill that brother if he wanted to ascend to the sultanate.

[reganx2]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

So far, I find that the heavy Mustafa bias makes him decidedly unsympathetic as a character.

Instead of trying to sell the idea that Mustafa should be Sultan because he’s the Most Special Snowflake to ever snowflake in the history of Special Snowflakes, they could have highlighted the fact that he was faced with a disadvantage that no previous Sehzade was.

He was the only half-brother against four full brothers born to a woman their father loved so much that he threw out the rule book for her. Suleiman, Hürrem and their children formed a nuclear family in a system originally designed around the rule of “one mother, one son”. Why not show the impact that exclusion from that nuclear family would have on Mustafa, instead of trying to sell the idea that he’s everybody’s favourite brother?

Let Hürrem wield political influence like her historical counterpart, and Mustafa has even more reason to worry that the deck is stacked against him.

Show the tightrope that Mustafa has to walk when he needs to court external support and to impress with his achievements to give him a fighting chance at becoming Padishah but if he is too popular and too impressive, he’ll be seen as a threat, not just by his half-brothers but also by his father.

Instead of the nonsense about winning his brothers over so they stand by him when the time comes, Ibrahim could have impressed on him the need to win his brothers over so they didn’t ally against him when they were adults.

They could have had a tragic character forced to play a deadly game of thrones where the rules could change at any moment, and the Padishah could advantage or handicap players if he so chose, somebody who sought and earned approval from others that he couldn’t get from his father, and whose popularity and potential led to his father seeing him as a threat rather than a worthy successor.

I’d take that over a Gary-Stu (Musti-Stu?) any day.

[redxluna]

You took the words right out of my mouth, to be honest!

It really is one of the greatest ironies to the show that all the show's efforts to depict Mustafa as a figure without flaw, the "perfect" heir, actually worked against just such efforts. What should be the meat of the character gets discarded in favor of rendering him overly flat and, more often than not, seemingly incredibly foolish and, much as people place this on Mehmed's head instead, naïve to the point of seeming a fool.

And that was just the impression I had watching the show!

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

[reganx2]

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

The writer in me apparently decided that I needed another maligned Queen to adopt, instead of letting me finish my Anne Boleyn or Daenerys Targaryen fics. Magnificent Century is too good at birthing plot bunnies. At least the two bunnies that were hopping most have combined, so hopefully it’ll work out. The brainstorming process is fun.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

I think that the series did Mahidevran no favours as a character by not acknowledging what a huge deal it was that Suleiman broke the one mother, one son rule with Hürrem, and by having her as Haseki Sultan when the title was created specifically for Hürrem in history.

Imagine if, as a Şehzade, Suleiman bent the rules with Mahidevran by continuing a sexual relationship after Mustafa was born, relying on birth control to ensure that there was no second baby. In episode 3, instead of Mahidevran’s pregnancy being celebrated, there’s a question mark over whether it will be allowed to continue. Mahidevran could hope that Suleiman will welcome the pregnancy, now that they don’t have to worry about Selim I’s reaction, especially when Mustafa is his only surviving child. He does not, so it’s aborted to comply with the rule. Mahidevran could blame Hürrem if she believes that, if not for her, Suleiman would have wanted their baby.

Now imagine how she would feel if, when Hürrem becomes pregnant for the second time, Suleiman celebrates and never considers forcing an abortion on her.

Later, Suleiman breaks with centuries of tradition by freeing and marrying Hürrem, creating the title of Haseki Sultan for her, and making her the next highest-ranking woman after his mother.

From Mahidevran’s perspective, Suleiman’s willingness to throw out the rule book for Hürrem when he never considered doing the same for her would not just be hurtful, it would be frightening because of the potential threat to Mustafa. In theory, any Şehzade can claim the throne but, in practice, Suleiman has a lot of power to stack the deck. Not all sanjaks are equal, even if there’s no specific crown prince’s province. There must have been some that were basically dead end assignments, or that were unfavourable because the distance from Istanbul would mean that they’d be the last to know when the throne fell vacant.

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

One point I find fascinating is that, in the account of the incident with the Russian concubines, Hafsa Sultan was sorry that she had given the one gifted to her to Suleiman, took her back and married her off ASAP, so it wasn’t just Suleiman deferring to Hürrem’s feelings.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

Tiny Mustafa went from being the apple of his father’s eye, told that “my Mustafa is worth the world”, to seeing his father dote on his half-siblings while spending less time with him and his mother. Even with Mehmed, he questioned whether his father would still love him, and whether he was still a Şehzade.

When Bayezid is born, and Suleiman is hugging Mehmed while Ayşe Hafsa cuddles Mihrimah in her lap, Middle-Sized Mustafa looks left out, as well as worried about the impact on his mother. He attends the naming ceremony (I think it’s the only one he attends, but I’m open to correction) but his expression is glum. I could see that being when it hits him that he’s something of an outsider in the family, and how it would spur him to want to impress Suleiman, not to mention have his father to himself for a change, by going on campaign.

I love the idea of Mehmed emulating Mustafa’s heroics and being praised while Mustafa was criticised. It would highlight that Suleiman looks on Mehmed as the next Sultan, and sees his heroics as a good sign for his future rule, while Mustafa is viewed as a rival by Suleiman, first to Mehmed, and eventually to Suleiman himself.

[redxluna]

I can't find it for the life of me, but I swear that, at some point, I spiraled off of Leslie Peirce's theory of Suleiman's historical return to Hürrem being influenced via his need to solidify the succession again, to consider what might've happened, if his mother permitted the return to Hürrem so long as he also tried doing the same with Mahidevran, who'd equally fallen pregnant quickly and conceived a boy. It's not what Suleiman actually wants to do, but he sees it as his only way to return to Hürrem so accepts.

Except, while Mahidevran falls pregnant, it tragically goes the same way it does in the show, while Hürrem realizes she's pregnant only after, giving birth to Mihrimah, who is beloved despite not being another hoped for boy. And so Suleiman keeps returning to Hürrem...and returning...all while Mahidevran grieves the chance that slipped through her fingers, in her eyes.

Oh! And, yes, it does seem like, in real life, Suleiman's family (outside of perhaps Fatma) weren't the horrible in-laws we see in the show. I do get some of the changes, though, because they had to draw on antagonists for her from somewhere! (In another life maybe it could've been the other concubine mothers of Suleiman who lost their children? I'm pondering...)

This, however, is the part where I turn into what I hope is only mild degrees of a dork as I realize ohmyGOD you're that Reganx. (In what's, no doubt, a song and dance you've heard before, yours were the first Tudor fan fics I read so, I'm having a goofy, "Beyonce?!" moment lol.)

It does, funnily enough, also make it a little less out of the blue (or so I hope) in bringing up that Suleiman thinking Mehmed to be "blessed" + the fact he's already prone in the show to have prophetic dreams thinking he's bound for the throne, makes me think of the fic where Henry has similar "visions" about Elizabeth and then becomes determined to make it real.

In fact, I could see it striking Suleiman even more since he dreams, not only of the infant Mehmed asleep on his throne, but of Mustafa (and Ibrahim) being the one to murder Mehmed (and all of his brothers along with Mihrimah and Hürrem).

[reganx2]

Except, while Mahidevran falls pregnant, it tragically goes the same way it does in the show, while Hürrem realizes she's pregnant only after, giving birth to Mihrimah, who is beloved despite not being another hoped for boy. And so Suleiman keeps returning to Hürrem...and returning...all while Mahidevran grieves the chance that slipped through her fingers, in her eyes.

Given that Suleiman would, in all likelihood, be annoyed and angry if his mother made her approval of him trying to have more children by Hürrem conditional on him also trying with Mahidevran, I suspect that he would use Mahidevran’s miscarriage and Hürrem’s successful pregnancy as proof that Allah only approved of him continuing with Hürrem.

Ayşe Hafsa did Mahidevran no favours in canon when she kept pushing Suleiman on her behalf. He didn’t like being told that he couldn’t banish her to the Old Palace for beating Hürrem half to death (and I’m surprised that there was no callback to this when Hürrem was accused of murdering Ayşe, and banishment was not an unthinkable disgrace in her case). When she pretty much ordered him to reinstate Thursday night halvets for Mahidevran, with the threat of withholding her blessing if he did not, he repeatedly invited Mahidevran to his chamber but never touched her.

I do get some of the changes, though, because they had to draw on antagonists for her from somewhere! (In another life maybe it could've been the other concubine mothers of Suleiman who lost their children? I'm pondering...)

I suppose the problem with using the concubine mothers who had lost their children as Hürrem’s antagonists would have been that these women would have had little power or influence to use against her. Imagine if Gülfem was Hürrem’s chief antagonist. Ayşe Hafsa thought well of her, and she was Hatice’s closest friend, but would that be enough to allow her to make significant trouble for Hürrem if Ayşe Hafsa and Hatice had nothing against her?

I would have liked to see more character development from Ayşe Hafsa where her view of Hürrem gradually evolved, instead of her being Team Mahidevran to such a ridiculous extent.

As for Suleiman’s small army of sisters, you’d think that there’d be one of them who, even if she didn’t like Hürrem as a person, was pragmatic enough to back her as the probable winner.

This, however, is the part where I turn into what I hope is only mild degrees of a dork as I realize ohmyGOD you're that Reganx. (In what's, no doubt, a song and dance you've heard before, yours were the first Tudor fan fics I read so, I'm having a goofy, "Beyonce?!" moment lol.)

That’s me. Crippled with writer’s block, alas, but I’m hoping that Hürrem might help break that.

It does, funnily enough, also make it a little less out of the blue (or so I hope) in bringing up that Suleiman thinking Mehmed to be "blessed" + the fact he's already prone in the show to have prophetic dreams thinking he's bound for the throne, makes me think of the fic where Henry has similar "visions" about Elizabeth and then becomes determined to make it real.

That’s one of my favourites out of my stories. Henry being Henry, he never realised that there was a reason his visions stopped when he was told of Anne’s subsequent pregnancies, not when she conceived.

In fact, I could see it striking Suleiman even more since he dreams, not only of the infant Mehmed asleep on his throne, but of Mustafa (and Ibrahim) being the one to murder Mehmed (and all of his brothers along with Mihrimah and Hürrem).

Given Suleiman’s naive hope that his children wouldn’t spill their brothers’ blood over the throne, combined with him hearing Mahidevran tell Hürrem that her children would die, it wouldn’t have surprised me if he saw Mehmed’s ascension to the throne as the scenario in which the maximum number of his children could live, in the sense that he wouldn’t expect Selim, Bayezid or Cihangir to challenge Mehmed, even if Mustafa did.

If Mustafa had died in a riding accident when he snuck away from the Edirne encampment in episode 25*, for example, Suleiman and Hürrem’s children would all have been under five years old. Selim was a year old and Bayezid newborn. Under those circumstances, could they have been raised to support Mehmed as heir?

* A death that couldn’t conceivably be blamed on Hürrem, who was the one who expressed concerns about the danger and Mustafa’s youth.

[redxluna]

A missed opportunity from the show, to be honest, not to have the reason that Suleiman believes Mehmed to be destined to take the throne after him (and, therefore, to invest heavily in his upbringing) to be the result of him assuming that only a truly "blessed" child could survive a poisoning and be born without any side effects from it.

[reganx2]

I love this idea, and it makes sense from Suleiman’s perspective that he would assume that Allah saved Mehmed for a reason. Maybe the unborn Mehmed even gets some of the credit for Hürrem going from Death’s door to perfectly fine overnight, in the sense that he shared his blessing and/or strength with his mother.

The series missed an opportunity to showcase Mehmed as Suleiman’s favoured heir in Season 2B.

Mustafa was away for three years, with Suleiman apparently never visiting him at Edirne. Imagine if, after his return, he saw Suleiman spending a lot of time with Mehmed, training with him, talking to him about how to be Padishah, letting him watch Divan meetings, etc. Episode 55 could then leave him feeling torn, as he knows that his path to the throne will be a lot smoother if he’s the only adult Şehzade when Suleiman dies but, at the same time, he loves his father and siblings, and wants them to live.

[redxluna]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

There's so much complexity to dive into when it comes to how the system of the Ottoman Empire called for what were normal familial bonds or human emotions to be set aside and eroded down. And it could be particularly wild for Mustafa since he was, quite possibly, shown Mehmed after the deaths of his other siblings in 1521 and told, "Here is a life you can still treasure," despite every adult involved knowing he'd have to one day kill that brother if he wanted to ascend to the sultanate.

[reganx2]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

So far, I find that the heavy Mustafa bias makes him decidedly unsympathetic as a character.

Instead of trying to sell the idea that Mustafa should be Sultan because he’s the Most Special Snowflake to ever snowflake in the history of Special Snowflakes, they could have highlighted the fact that he was faced with a disadvantage that no previous Sehzade was.

He was the only half-brother against four full brothers born to a woman their father loved so much that he threw out the rule book for her. Suleiman, Hürrem and their children formed a nuclear family in a system originally designed around the rule of “one mother, one son”. Why not show the impact that exclusion from that nuclear family would have on Mustafa, instead of trying to sell the idea that he’s everybody’s favourite brother?

Let Hürrem wield political influence like her historical counterpart, and Mustafa has even more reason to worry that the deck is stacked against him.

Show the tightrope that Mustafa has to walk when he needs to court external support and to impress with his achievements to give him a fighting chance at becoming Padishah but if he is too popular and too impressive, he’ll be seen as a threat, not just by his half-brothers but also by his father.

Instead of the nonsense about winning his brothers over so they stand by him when the time comes, Ibrahim could have impressed on him the need to win his brothers over so they didn’t ally against him when they were adults.

They could have had a tragic character forced to play a deadly game of thrones where the rules could change at any moment, and the Padishah could advantage or handicap players if he so chose, somebody who sought and earned approval from others that he couldn’t get from his father, and whose popularity and potential led to his father seeing him as a threat rather than a worthy successor.

I’d take that over a Gary-Stu (Musti-Stu?) any day.

[redxluna]

You took the words right out of my mouth, to be honest!

It really is one of the greatest ironies to the show that all the show's efforts to depict Mustafa as a figure without flaw, the "perfect" heir, actually worked against just such efforts. What should be the meat of the character gets discarded in favor of rendering him overly flat and, more often than not, seemingly incredibly foolish and, much as people place this on Mehmed's head instead, naïve to the point of seeming a fool.

And that was just the impression I had watching the show!

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

[reganx2]

Once I actually dug into the history, the writer in me just grew all the more frustrated because, just like you outlined, there's literally so much that could have been lent to the character that would've rendered the character fascinating but also easy to empathize with.

The writer in me apparently decided that I needed another maligned Queen to adopt, instead of letting me finish my Anne Boleyn or Daenerys Targaryen fics. Magnificent Century is too good at birthing plot bunnies. At least the two bunnies that were hopping most have combined, so hopefully it’ll work out. The brainstorming process is fun.

It's actually similar to how I often feel about his mother too since, whether she had fallen for Suleiman in some manner or not, I can only imagine how it must've struck her that, "Oh, the rules and traditions can be broken actually—I just wasn't good enough for them to try."

I think that the series did Mahidevran no favours as a character by not acknowledging what a huge deal it was that Suleiman broke the one mother, one son rule with Hürrem, and by having her as Haseki Sultan when the title was created specifically for Hürrem in history.

Imagine if, as a Şehzade, Suleiman bent the rules with Mahidevran by continuing a sexual relationship after Mustafa was born, relying on birth control to ensure that there was no second baby. In episode 3, instead of Mahidevran’s pregnancy being celebrated, there’s a question mark over whether it will be allowed to continue. Mahidevran could hope that Suleiman will welcome the pregnancy, now that they don’t have to worry about Selim I’s reaction, especially when Mustafa is his only surviving child. He does not, so it’s aborted to comply with the rule. Mahidevran could blame Hürrem if she believes that, if not for her, Suleiman would have wanted their baby.

Now imagine how she would feel if, when Hürrem becomes pregnant for the second time, Suleiman celebrates and never considers forcing an abortion on her.

Later, Suleiman breaks with centuries of tradition by freeing and marrying Hürrem, creating the title of Haseki Sultan for her, and making her the next highest-ranking woman after his mother.

From Mahidevran’s perspective, Suleiman’s willingness to throw out the rule book for Hürrem when he never considered doing the same for her would not just be hurtful, it would be frightening because of the potential threat to Mustafa. In theory, any Şehzade can claim the throne but, in practice, Suleiman has a lot of power to stack the deck. Not all sanjaks are equal, even if there’s no specific crown prince’s province. There must have been some that were basically dead end assignments, or that were unfavourable because the distance from Istanbul would mean that they’d be the last to know when the throne fell vacant.

The very fact that, in real life, Suleiman was able to form a sort of insular little family for himself, all with the permission of his mother and others Mahidevran would've spent more time around and who are now fawning over the rising favorite, must have been a wound.

One point I find fascinating is that, in the account of the incident with the Russian concubines, Hafsa Sultan was sorry that she had given the one gifted to her to Suleiman, took her back and married her off ASAP, so it wasn’t just Suleiman deferring to Hürrem’s feelings.

(There's been a small inkling of an idea in my head too of a fic that's just Mustafa reacting to the birth of each of his half-siblings. Because I think he started out close to Mehmed and Mihrimah and then, for all that proceeded them, the estrangement and differences between them seemed to grow.)

Tiny Mustafa went from being the apple of his father’s eye, told that “my Mustafa is worth the world”, to seeing his father dote on his half-siblings while spending less time with him and his mother. Even with Mehmed, he questioned whether his father would still love him, and whether he was still a Şehzade.

When Bayezid is born, and Suleiman is hugging Mehmed while Ayşe Hafsa cuddles Mihrimah in her lap, Middle-Sized Mustafa looks left out, as well as worried about the impact on his mother. He attends the naming ceremony (I think it’s the only one he attends, but I’m open to correction) but his expression is glum. I could see that being when it hits him that he’s something of an outsider in the family, and how it would spur him to want to impress Suleiman, not to mention have his father to himself for a change, by going on campaign.

I love the idea of Mehmed emulating Mustafa’s heroics and being praised while Mustafa was criticised. It would highlight that Suleiman looks on Mehmed as the next Sultan, and sees his heroics as a good sign for his future rule, while Mustafa is viewed as a rival by Suleiman, first to Mehmed, and eventually to Suleiman himself.

[redxluna]

A missed opportunity from the show, to be honest, not to have the reason that Suleiman believes Mehmed to be destined to take the throne after him (and, therefore, to invest heavily in his upbringing) to be the result of him assuming that only a truly "blessed" child could survive a poisoning and be born without any side effects from it.

[reganx2]

I love this idea, and it makes sense from Suleiman’s perspective that he would assume that Allah saved Mehmed for a reason. Maybe the unborn Mehmed even gets some of the credit for Hürrem going from Death’s door to perfectly fine overnight, in the sense that he shared his blessing and/or strength with his mother.

The series missed an opportunity to showcase Mehmed as Suleiman’s favoured heir in Season 2B.

Mustafa was away for three years, with Suleiman apparently never visiting him at Edirne. Imagine if, after his return, he saw Suleiman spending a lot of time with Mehmed, training with him, talking to him about how to be Padishah, letting him watch Divan meetings, etc. Episode 55 could then leave him feeling torn, as he knows that his path to the throne will be a lot smoother if he’s the only adult Şehzade when Suleiman dies but, at the same time, he loves his father and siblings, and wants them to live.

[redxluna]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

There's so much complexity to dive into when it comes to how the system of the Ottoman Empire called for what were normal familial bonds or human emotions to be set aside and eroded down. And it could be particularly wild for Mustafa since he was, quite possibly, shown Mehmed after the deaths of his other siblings in 1521 and told, "Here is a life you can still treasure," despite every adult involved knowing he'd have to one day kill that brother if he wanted to ascend to the sultanate.

[reganx2]

It really is why I so continually feel like the show wasted a good deal of narrative potential through so continually defaulting to "aww no 🥰 they all love one another 🥰 forget about the fratricide law until we want to use it 🥰" (and the heavy Mustafa bias didn't help).

So far, I find that the heavy Mustafa bias makes him decidedly unsympathetic as a character.

Instead of trying to sell the idea that Mustafa should be Sultan because he’s the Most Special Snowflake to ever snowflake in the history of Special Snowflakes, they could have highlighted the fact that he was faced with a disadvantage that no previous Sehzade was.

He was the only half-brother against four full brothers born to a woman their father loved so much that he threw out the rule book for her. Suleiman, Hürrem and their children formed a nuclear family in a system originally designed around the rule of “one mother, one son”. Why not show the impact that exclusion from that nuclear family would have on Mustafa, instead of trying to sell the idea that he’s everybody’s favourite brother?

Let Hürrem wield political influence like her historical counterpart, and Mustafa has even more reason to worry that the deck is stacked against him.

Show the tightrope that Mustafa has to walk when he needs to court external support and to impress with his achievements to give him a fighting chance at becoming Padishah but if he is too popular and too impressive, he’ll be seen as a threat, not just by his half-brothers but also by his father.

Instead of the nonsense about winning his brothers over so they stand by him when the time comes, Ibrahim could have impressed on him the need to win his brothers over so they didn’t ally against him when they were adults.

They could have had a tragic character forced to play a deadly game of thrones where the rules could change at any moment, and the Padishah could advantage or handicap players if he so chose, somebody who sought and earned approval from others that he couldn’t get from his father, and whose popularity and potential led to his father seeing him as a threat rather than a worthy successor.

I’d take that over a Gary-Stu (Musti-Stu?) any day.

[redxluna]

A missed opportunity from the show, to be honest, not to have the reason that Suleiman believes Mehmed to be destined to take the throne after him (and, therefore, to invest heavily in his upbringing) to be the result of him assuming that only a truly "blessed" child could survive a poisoning and be born without any side effects from it.

[reganx2]

I love this idea, and it makes sense from Suleiman’s perspective that he would assume that Allah saved Mehmed for a reason. Maybe the unborn Mehmed even gets some of the credit for Hürrem going from Death’s door to perfectly fine overnight, in the sense that he shared his blessing and/or strength with his mother.

The series missed an opportunity to showcase Mehmed as Suleiman’s favoured heir in Season 2B.

Mustafa was away for three years, with Suleiman apparently never visiting him at Edirne. Imagine if, after his return, he saw Suleiman spending a lot of time with Mehmed, training with him, talking to him about how to be Padishah, letting him watch Divan meetings, etc. Episode 55 could then leave him feeling torn, as he knows that his path to the throne will be a lot smoother if he’s the only adult Şehzade when Suleiman dies but, at the same time, he loves his father and siblings, and wants them to live.

[sj0]

you have been visited by the seven magic dragon balls your biggest wish will be granted but only if you reblog

[hersheyhipster]

Couldn’t risk it.

[justjengie]

didn’t realize they change colors. now I know o gotta wish.

[pinayputa]

THIS SHIT IS REAL I GOT THE JOB I WAS NUTS ABOUT BC I REBLOGGED THIS YESTERDAY maybe it’s a coinkidink but it okay just take the necessary steps to achieve what you’re wishing for and YOU CAN DO IT

[velnat004]

I KNOW THIS IS UNREALISTIC BUT. HEAR ME OUT......... a female assassin as hürrem's bodyguard...................maybe also joins sülüman to the battles but mainly does her job in the shadows..........

[redxluna]

The rule of thumb I always default to is that, if this is the same show where dabs of medicinal ointment can entirely cure third degree burns (and that's even without the many historical inaccuracies) then we can get away with a little bit of "unrealism" ourselves.

Overall too, it fits in with a lot of the ideas I had around Suleiman gradually establishing an inner spy network of his own and, like, since, at some point, if the show were realistic, the man would realize that, whenever he leaves for on campaign, that he could just bring Hürrem along with him and have her be safer than if he'd left her behind.

So why wouldn't he want to arrange protection for her (and their children)?

[reganx2]

at some point, if the show were realistic, the man would realize that, whenever he leaves for on campaign, that he could just bring Hürrem along with him and have her be safer than if he'd left her behind.

Can you imagine the look on Ibrahim’s face if Suleiman brought Hürrem along on campaign?

I can’t decide if the Janissaries would throw a hissy fit over Hürrem’s presence, or over people other than them being responsible for her security.

[hurremsphoenix]

The thing with the 'well everyone else is also traumatised!' comeback that a lot of Hürrem antis use is that it would make a lot more sense if they were using it in order to sympathise with the other concubines. But way more often than not, they're using it in order to justify the abuse that Hürrem receives. So rather than encouraging actual understanding of the experiences of minor side characters, they're just using it in order to invalidate the trauma of a main character and justify her suffering. It discourages understanding a character's psychology and encourages fandom infighting. It's essentially a thought-terminating cliché. It's the worst kind of analysis.

[reganx2]

Has another concubine in the MC franchise had the Valide Sultan, Grand Vizier, other Sultanas (Sultan’s sister(s) and the mother(s) of Şehzades), most of the concubines and officials in the harem, and the oldest Şehzade pit themselves against her for decades?

Has another concubine been the target of a multi-year campaign to weaponise the harem against her, with the goal of seeing her murdered?

By the time Hürrem was at Topkapi Palace a fortnight, she’d had her first halvet blocked, been imprisoned in the dungeon and deprived of water, had her ring stolen, and she was beaten almost to death. The offences that led to this treatment? Making a couple of unwise jokes with her only friend, using the name the Sultan gave her, and being gifted a ring.

Ayşe Hafsa’s treatment of Hürrem when she is a vulnerable, newly postpartum teenager is despicable, and motivated by nothing but spite. She didn’t refuse to let Hürrem see or touch the newborn Mehmed, or repeatedly have him removed while she slept, because that’s what was done to her and she’s continuing the cycle of abuse. The series made a point of emphasising that she was a royal bride who came to the harem as a Sultana, not as a slave concubine. She did it because she could.

Does anybody seriously think that she refused to let Mahidevran hold Mustafa when he was born, or that she would have been amused to learn that somebody hated Mahidevran enough to send her only friend to halvet with Suleiman?

It’s one thing to deplore the cycle of abuse that so many women were trapped in, but quite another to treat Hürrem as the villain of the story because she didn’t turn the other cheek, or single-handedly stop a cycle of abuse that started centuries before she was born.