River

I’m River 19 Aroace! He/they

[riveronmars]

Im trying to be more active here, so if anyone wants to be mutuals hi!!

Some things about me:

I’m 19

I’m aroace

I’m agender and my pronouns are they/he

My main fandoms are, The Mets(baseball), AFTG, Spiderman, Theatre/musicals, Fallen Thorns (book series)

If you want to ask me anything my dms and Asks are open <3

[andrewminyard-josten]

hey, don't worry i didn't feel dismissed per se as much as i wanted to clarify that my criticism didn't align with aftg being The Most Toxic fandom ever (i've been in worse, and as you said it's natural). i also agree on your take on mythology (and comics re needing a foundational text from which to operate— as it happens, my favorite character is bruce wayne, christopher nolan when i catch you christopher nolan...) with having to engage and be willing to engage with the higher text to have any sort of meaningful discussion.

speaking of death of the author, no one wants to engage with authorial intent anymore... (exaggerated). nora wrote these words arranged in that exact order For A Reason, there is a specific understanding and a specific image this text is meant to convey to the reader, there's a specific thing this line in context is suggesting. and then no one seems willing to engage or talk about this (exaggerated dejection) SCREAMS AND WAILS FOR A THOUSAND YEARS. don't we all like aftg...??? can we please talk about this??? drives me up the wall but It's Fine It's Fine.

also, re andrew minyard. i do have the controversial take here that andrew is a sociopath, and this doesn't make him any more monstrous or heartless, because sociopaths aren't monstrous or heartless or ontologically evil. this is also obviously a death of the author take seperate from nora's authorial intent, who i didn't think INTENDED to give him aspd, but wrote a character and grounded him in a way which exhibited aspd anyway. a lot of andrews logic, worldview and rationale is the rationale of someone with aspd. he sees the world in power hierarchies, and situates himself in that power hierarchy as someone Dangerous (ie powerful) and therefore Untouchable; this is something i believe you've spoken about before so i won't elaborate very much, but this is a very much fundamentally the type of worldview present in aspd. this includes his transactional approach to interpersonal relationships with others via his deals, a truth for a truth, including his whole deal with aaron (deals and what they mean and its the Principle & sanctity of the deal etc. and the way he views aaron as having betrayed them / sided with his mom over him, rather than seeing it as aaron grieving the only mother he knew), these are all aspd behaviors. even as we look at his numbness and risk taking behavior, finding life almost constantly consistently dull, going to the roof for the adrenaline rush of a "life or death" fear — chronic boredom and anhedonia are hallmarks of aspd, and thrill seeking (in the form of seeking fear and adrenaline) just to feel something is very common / typical way that people with aspd cope (and one of the things you look for in diagnosing it). the way he operates by his own principles and values and has this framework in a way which disregards and/or sidelines normative conventions, to the way people react to him ("monster, unpredictable" even tho imo he's pretty predicable it's just that he doesn't operate within the normative framework — like the time with allison, and how people saw his reaction as unpredictable and defying the common sense of the situation; it is predicable for andrew, he is operating under a different logic framework), but yeah all of that to his self destructive tendencies and lack of consequence adherence (court mandated drugs and therapy have done NOTHING to change his behavior, whereas for most normal people punishment and consequences are things that dissuade you, for andrew they do JACK SHIT that's simply the 'price' he has to pay, he is motivated to avoid certain consequences, but consequences as a whole don't impact his behavior or the likelihood that he'll do it again / repeat it. again, because he has an almost transactional view of it, that's the 'cost' of the behavior — can he pay it? can he haggle with it if not?). and yk, his lack of remorse and guilt, that's something very strongly associated with aspd.

even the way he is villanized (the way he's seen as volatile and dangerous and over-penalized by being put on the drugs for defending his cousin from a bunch of homophobes; this incl some of the way the foxes see him / react to him too) replicates the typical aspd experience. andrew is like. such a classic, almost textbook case of aspd.

so it's like, no actually. there exist a lot of people for who andrew is relatable, for who his logic and rationale are relatable, who are traumatized in certain ways and act in certain ways that are reminiscent of this.

this was a very long rant that you did not need but i just love andrew minyard

Hi there,

That is good - I am glad you did not feel dismissed! Also, I find your thoughts on Andrew to be SUPER interesting & as usual the rest of my response will be underneath the Read More!

First of all, I agree, I think sometimes people can become incredibly fixated on “Death of the Author” b/c they are more interested in their Fanon than what Nora is actually writing & conveying to the readers in Canon. And this isn’t me saying that Death of the Author is a BAD way of engaging with literature or that there is one singular correct interpretation of any piece of literature that we are all beholden to, (although some people certainly do treat Death of the Author more as “my interpretation is actually the CORRECT interpretation and anyone who says otherwise just lacks media literary” vs “multiple interpretations of a piece of literature can & do exist based on the perspective [life experiences, biases, location: time & geographical, etc.,] of the person reading.”). Moreover, some interpretations are… very easily disputed by Canon so if someone IS hoping to convince other readers that their theories have legitimacy & are worth considering, there does need to be some analytical persuasion involved outside of - in regard to AFTG - “Neil is an unreliable narrator” and “if we completely remove this scene from its context & and add in a bunch of Fanon, my logic makes total sense.” There is a difference between analyzing subtext and then just... making shit up (which, making shit up IS fun for Fanfic, but like I always say the way one interacts with Canon should not necessarily be the same as the way one interacts with Fanon/Fanfic).

However, it can definitely be a bit jarring - like you said - when you’re trying to engage with other people about AFTG Canon & everyone cares more about their headcanons, fanon back stories & fanon characterizations + relationships - especially when they’re so disconnected from anything actually in Canon - than what is actually occurring in AFTG. And they want to dismiss everything Nora herself wrote because it’s not the Ideal Fanfic they would have preferred (I am admittedly not a fan of rhetoric that is "AFTG would have been so much better it if Got Rid Of All The Bits That Makes It AFTG"). Moreover, it’s downright infuriating when people treat their Fanons like it’s “already basically Canon” and “obviously what Nora is going to write” despite minimal evidence. There’s nothing wrong about speculating about what COULD happen in future novels but treating popular Fanon like it’s already a given & if other readers refuse to accept it as fact it’s b/c they’re just “stupid" is just... tiresome.

Secondly, as for your controversial take - I actually find your perspective of Andrew with ASPD fascinating! Your explanation of why you think this way & your canonical evidence is SO good.

[I also want to add as a little side note: sometimes AFTG Fandom treats the Upperclassmen/other characters calling Andrew a “sociopath” as offensive on the basis that being thought of as a “sociopath” is some horrible thing to be. Whereas, imo, the ACTUAL problem of other characters calling Andrew a “sociopath” is the fact that they’re treating characteristics associated with ASPD - lack of remorse & guilt, feelings of boredom & searching for rushes of adrenaline, addiction, a focus on hierarchal powers & transactional relationships, etc., that you yourself described - as making someone Less Than Human and undeserving of compassion & dignity.

Even though Andrew tells Neil he never claimed to be a sociopath in AFTG it’s not that Andrew doesn’t have these traits described above, which is something that Fanon sometimes does - removes the traits from Andrew that are considered to be “monstrous” and then say: see! Andrew isn’t a monster after all! This, imo, kind of defeats the point of what Andrew's character is meant to convey. The point of Andrew is that EVEN people with “monstrous” traits are still human. Even people with trauma and mental health issues that are considered "scary" and people with unresolved trauma that they do not respond to in a "pretty" or "calm & socially acceptable" way (such as the fact that Andrew is more prone to apathy & angrily lashing out than, say... crying or being Distracted Productively). There is a reason for why Andrew behaves the way he does and that is explored in Canon as Neil grows to understand Andrew, however, Andrew still does behave in a way that can be considered unsettling and off-putting & he is STILL just a traumatized boy longing for human connection even with those traits].

Additionally, when talking about mental health diagnoses such as ASPD, BPD, NPD, etc., that are stigmatized in real life it’s important to not act like it would be disgusting or awful for our favourite characters to have these disorders. That doesn’t mean every reader needs to agree that Andrew has ASPD or engage with that reading of Andrew's character, however the basis of that disagreement shouldn’t be “I think people with ASPD are evil & therefore I don’t want to think of Andrew as having ASPD b/c that would make him inherently evil.” Not good! Throwing real life people under the bus for a fictional character is not good!

Also, not go to off-track... but unfortunately this is the norm for me, I also feel this way sometimes when people speak about wanting Kevin Day sober/to stop drinking alcohol b/c while some people try to make the basis of their reasoning… “oh I just want what’s best for Kevin” sometimes it does very much give “I think alcoholics are bad, evil people and b/c Kevin is my precious baby boy he cannot POSSIBLY be an alcoholic.” Especially b/c this rhetoric is often accompanied by blaming literally every other single character for “making” Kevin drink - b/c WANTING to drink & having unhealthy coping mechanisms is BAD and they don’t want their favourite character to be BAD - that fails to engage with… Kevin as a character with substance abuse issues who is also interacting with OTHER characters with substance abuse issues (Andrew, Aaron, Wymack, Matt, Renee, also tbh Allison, Nicky, Dan. Literally every Fox other than Neil & Abby, haha). Instead of actually engaging with Kevin & his addictions some readers literally just want all the issues with addiction to Miraculously Vanish & also to Have Never Been Kevin’s Choice in the first place. Not to mention, once again throwing irl people with addictions and substance abuse issues under the bus to make a fictional character look better [I often think of the rhetoric I see of “Kevin Day is such a sweet, non-violent drunk unlike actual violent alcoholics” and it’s like listen, I understand some of y’all are getting your information about alcoholics from television shows where the alcoholic is always the Abusive Violent Step-Father but MANY different kinds of people irl are alcoholics & alcoholism presents itself in MANY different ways that aren’t just those Evil Loud Violent Drunks]. But my rant about how some of those in the AFTG Fandom engages with alcoholism/addiction in relation to Kevin & the other Foxes is not the purpose of this post, haha.

Anyway, back to your analysis - which, like I mentioned above, I find your analysis of Andrew with ASPD to be very compelling & definitely grounded in Andrew’s canonical character traits! Moreover, I find the exploration of these character traits through the lens of ASPD to be a lot more compelling than… takes on Andrew where the intent is to make him more normal and socially palatable (especially when some people refer to this as a “healed” Andrew or Andrew “healing” b/c the implication very much is that a refusal to submit to societal norms & expectations is unhealthy and needs to be forcibly changed or this persistent hope that people will “outgrow” what makes them Different/Unlikable). And yes, obviously Andrew can change & grow as he gets older *in the context of someone writing older!Andrew, obviously, b/c Andrew is not real, haha, and the ways that he responds to his traumas can mature, but also sometimes I find that in a desire to have a “healed Andrew Minyard” it kind of becomes “an Andrew Minyard with absolutely no lingering trauma or mental health issues or bad habits or unhealthy coping strategies, who is now a wonderfully kind person on par with Renee. And is finally Likable and Socially Acceptable.” And yes, perhaps that is someone’s cup of tea but it is not mine - I find that version of Andrew Minyard to be incredibly dull. It removes all the interesting aspects of him that AREN’T so savoury and the reason so many other characters DID find Andrew to be unlikable & were uncomfortable around him/with his behaviour.

Like you said, for some readers the aspects of Andrew (or even the other Foxes) that they DO find relatable are the aspects other readers find uncomfortable/strange ‘this doesn’t really happen to people irl’ - and that is fine, everyone is, of course, reading AFTG from their own perspectives. However, the rhetoric that these characteristics of Andrew (or the other Foxes) are “things obviously no one can relate to” isn't true & possibly coming from a place of privilege & ignorance. [I could also get into how some readers project more “relatable” characteristics onto Andrew/the other Foxes that over-ride some of the Less Pretty characteristics they DO actually have and why this is part of my many reasons of why I find character analysis/character engagement entirely via projection to be kind of tiresome, but I digress].

Anyway, I love your love for Andrew & the way you engage with his character! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts regarding Andrew with ASPD with me. It is also fascinating b/c I’ve mentioned before occasionally reading Andrew through a BPD perspective, so it is so interesting seeing the similarities between reading Andrew through an ASPD perspective & reading Andrew through a BPD perspective (which makes sense considering they are both Cluster B personality disorders). I’m also, admittedly, particularly attached to Andrew’s tendency to fear abandonment & making another person his Reason to Live (+ getting very attached to his therapist and viewing her as a pseudo-mother) as being part of these readings.

[davidpetey]

HE'S SO SILLYGOOFYGIRL

[papercranesandpride]

I think if you want to understand bigotry against aromantics, I have a good case study. Let me talk a little about my dad's family.

My dad has 4 half siblings and two step siblings. They're all a decent bit younger than him. When I was a teenager, we went to a family reunion, and I realized something—my dad did not respect his siblings. He looked down on all of them. He saw them as fuck-ups and overgrown children. My dad had the American dream: well paying management job, suburban house, wife, and three kids. My aunt and uncles did not. Excluding my aunt, none of them were married or in serious relationships. They hadn't really settled into long term careers. Several of them were working the kind of jobs that get called "Unskilled labor." So he looked down on them because the youngest one was in his thirties (and several were much older), and yet none of them had "settled down" into what he saw as lifelong, permanent careers and relationships and lives. He was polite to their faces, sure, but I heard how he talked about them behind their backs, to my mother.

And then a few years ago, we visited his brothers again for Thanksgiving. And I realized something again--he respected them now. He saw them as equals. Why? Well. All of a sudden, every single one of them had serious, committed romantic partners. They didn't even need to still be with those partners—one of my uncle's fiance passed away from cancer before they could marry—just having had one showed that they matured into a real adult participating in society. In fact, at one point, my aunt was telling my mom about how one of my uncles was no longer living in an apartment she owned, but instead, after having a steady girlfriend for about a year, he moved in with her. And my mom literally said to my aunt, "wow. Look at that. He finally grew up."

One of the lines that frequently gets repeated about anti-aspec sentiment is "why would anyone hate asexuals/aromantics/etc? They aren't even doing anything." And that's exactly it. In the eyes of amatonormative culture, we aren't doing anything. Adults are supposed to do things. That's how you become a member of society.

I know that my father will never see me as a successful adult. He will never approve of my life. And I think most people would assume that that's because I'm trans. And don't get me wrong, he sure as shit doesn't like or respect that, but I do think if given enough time, he would get used to it. He would eventually realize that it isn't going away. And if I settled down with a spouse and a respectful job and a few kids, he could see me as a successful adult that he could be proud of anyway. But of course, that's not going to happen. Because I'm aromantic. So I'm never going to do that one thing that signifies that his job is complete, and I'm officially a full-fledged adult. I will perpetually be that fuck-up kid who won't settle down. In my personal case, that's okay. My dad is a conservative piece of shit, and if he doesn't approve of you, that just means you're doing something right. But on a societal level? This kind of attitude is a massive problem. Aromantics deserve to be treated like adults, and to feel like the accomplished adults that they are. We should feel like we belong in society.

[riveronmars]

Does any other aromantic person feel this way?

When consuming any romantic media (whether it be a subplot or the main plot.) Is it really hard to find stories that do it *well*

Because for me, it’s extremely difficult to actually care about a canon ship. I have a few that I adore (like Ben and Casper in Fallen Thorns series. Though they’re side characters) and Neil and Andrew from AFTG. Then a handful of romance novels.

But 8/10 times I just don’t believe it. It’s often just a forced relationship in my eyes. In my opinion they are often better as friends

[loustattruther]

[riveronmars]

Does anyone have adult queer horror book recommendations? It’s one of my favorite genres and it’s hard finding new works. I’ll take anything! (I will read pretty much anything regardless of trigger warnings!)

(One of my favorites is You Weren’t Meant To Be Human by Andrew Joseph White)

[sahlofolina]

there's this specific grief that comes with being trans and hearing another trans person has died. because no matter how far away they were, it never feels distant, it feels communal. cellular. like someone reached into the wiring of your own body and cut a thread. trans people learn early on in their journey - often even before they begin transitioning - that survival is treated like a political statement. joy is political. transition is political. getting to exist long enough to become boring is political.

and now mourning is political, too.

i'm so sorry, murry foust. i keep thinking about how tired you must have been. how tired all of us are. how humiliating it is that even when we die alone, people still laugh and debate whether we deserved to live a happy, dignified life at all.

there are trans kids online right now learning your name – and the names of juniper blessing, lucas redbeard knapp, aleanna belcher, and davonta curtis – through grief. through fear. through that horrible, familiar ache of "that could've been me." and i hate that this is part of our inheritance from one another. not just chosen family and resilience and beauty – but memorials. vigils. apology letters to ghosts.

you deserved better. you deserved to grow old and live a happy, fulfilled life. all of us do. i promise we will keep fighting for our community to have a better future and we'll carry our lost siblings the whole way through.

[riveronmars]

We need more musicals about vampires.

I just saw The Lost Boys today, and I throughly enjoyed it. Now we need more!

[parabolabear]

Sean is such a romantic about this sport istg. "Just the Two of Us could be for me and my fiance...or me and my catcher...could be for me and the hitter..." Baby. Be so for real right now.

[davidpetey]

MARK VIENTOS Mets vs Marlins | 5/29/26

[trulyaftg]

The twins are cut from the same cloth, though sewed and stitched differently, they are tailored just for eachother

Because wdym Andrew was a misogynist and Tilda was hitting Aaron and Aaron was a homophobe and Drake was raping Andrew?

Twin thelapathy is real, I'm telling you

[aftgphoenix]

Listening to The Raven King again and I would give everything to get a Wymack pov of Neil coming back from the Nest

[mawofthemagnetar]

What do you mean “chat” is now referring to ChatGPT and not twitch chat? What? What? What the fuck? No?

When I address chat I am speaking to a presumed Greek chorus of real human people shitposting on their lunch break, not a machine that devours lakes to covert electricity into slop.

[oedipalrivalry]

being a team sports fan really is like oh what if you stanned the ship of theseus

[i-welded-ur-genitals-shut]

@riveronmars confirm?

[riveronmars]

I have no idea what the ship of Theseus is, but I’m going to say possibly?

[i-welded-ur-genitals-shut]

Philosophical question of how many boards on a boat you can replace before it’s not the same ship. :D

[riveronmars]

Oh yes. But we will always love our team

[oedipalrivalry]

being a team sports fan really is like oh what if you stanned the ship of theseus

[i-welded-ur-genitals-shut]

@riveronmars confirm?

[riveronmars]

I have no idea what the ship of Theseus is, but I’m going to say possibly?

[riveronmars]

I’m genuinely asking here!! For the people who headcanon Andrew as a theatre kid, what’s your reasoning?

Me personally as a theatre kid, I don’t get that vibes from him at all. He would never participate in theatre (this also includes crew) and would never listen to musical theatre

But I want to hear from other perspectives and opinions!!