[longdaytogo-deactivated20250203]

the black sisters

[oxydiane]

Fanon: James bullied Snape for being poor/ugly!

Canon: Not even mentioned once.

'Look, Harry, James and Snape hated each other the moment they set eyes on each other, [...] And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts, and James – whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry – always hated the Dark Arts.' Order of the Phoenix, Careers Advice

Fanon: Yeah, but he bullied Snape since day one, and he wasn't a Death Eater then!

Canon: There is actually no proof James 'tormented' Snape since day one. What did happen was James sitting in their compartment and making a comment on how he'd never want to be a Slytherin in a time in which a Dark Lord, notoriously Slytherin, was rising, and all his supporters were affiliated with that house. And then Snape was made fun of by Sirius after he insulted Gryffindors.

'Maybe I'll break the tradition. Where are you heading, if you've got the choice?' James lifted an invisible sword. 'Gryffindor, where dwell the brave at heart! Like my dad.' Snape made a small, disparaging noise. James turned on him. 'Got a problem with that?' 'No,' said Snape, though his slight sneer said otherwise. 'If you'd rather be brawny than brainy –' 'Where're you hoping to go, seeing as you're neither?' interjected Sirius. Deathly Hallows, The Prince's Tale

Maybe he is so bitter because James ended up having both brawn and brains, seeing he was a 'hero Quidditch player' and the top student of the school, along with Sirius, but that's just me speculating... anyways. Later in the same memory, Snape is talking to Lily, who is complaining about how creepy Snape's friends are and how awful it is he finds Dark Magic funny. Snape deflects by mentioning James and the other Marauders and the 'stuff they get up to', only mentioning how they sneak around at night; if James was relentlessly bullying him, using Dark Magic or whatever people say these days, wouldn't he have mentioned it?

'That was nothing,' said Snape. 'It was a laugh, that's all.' 'It was Dark Magic, and if you think that's funny –' 'What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?' demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment. 'What's Potter got to do with anything?' said Lily. 'They sneak out at night.' [...] 'Why are you so obsessed with them, anyway? Why do you care what they're doing at night?' 'I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.' The intensity of his glare made her blush. 'They don't use Dark Magic, though.' Deathly Hallows, The Prince's Tale

Fanon: James was the big bad bully and Snape was his helpless victim!

Canon: It is repeatedly stated that they disliked each other and were often at each other's throats, as is stated that Snape was never shy to hex James as well.

'Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr Malfoy. And then your father did something Snape could never forgive. 'What?' 'He saved his life.' Philosopher's Stone, The Man With Two Faces

'And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it,' said Lupin. 'Even Snape?' said Harry. 'Well,' said Lupin, slowly. 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?' Order of the Phoenix, Careers Advice

Fanon: James did not bully Snape only! He bullied other students as well!

Canon: James hexed people for 'fun', but that is not something seen as evil as, I don't know, inventing spells to cut people open and actually doing it... (Snape cut James' cheek open in SWM, before being Levicurpus'ed, but I don't see anybody talking about that?) as he's definitely not the only one and hexes are something very trivial – as Lupin says.

' [...] One of them was Levicurpus –' 'Oh, that one had a great vogue during my time at Hogwarts,' said Lupin reminiscently. 'There were a few months in my fifth year when you couldn't move for being hoisted into the air by your ankle.' 'My dad used it,' said Harry. 'I saw him in the Pensieve, he used it on Snape.' He tried to sound casual, as though this was a throwaway comment of no real importance, but he was not sure he had achieved the right effect; Lupin's smile was a little too understanding. 'Yes,' he said, 'but he wasn't the only one. As I say, it was very popular... you know how these spells come and go...' Half-Blood Prince, A Very Frosty Christmas

In the very same book, Ginny is praised for her skill at hexing people (her Bat-Boogey Hex being the most notorious). People also often (jokingly?) threaten to hex others.

'Harry,' Fred began, but Harry pulled out his wand. 'Look,' he said flatly. 'take it, or I'll hex you. [...]' Goblet of Fire, The Beginning

'That's my final decision and if you don't get out of the way for the Keepers I'll hex you,' he bellowed Half-Blood Prince, Hermione's Helping Hand

Snape was no less obviously partisan: He had booked the Quidditch pitch for Slytherin practice so often that the Gryffindors had difficulty getting on it to play. He was also turning a deaf ear to the many reports of Slytherin attempts to hex Gryffindor players in the corridors. When Alicia Spinnet turned up in the hospital wing with her eyebrows growing so thick and fast that they obscured her vision and obstructed her mouth, Snape insisted that she must have attempted a Hair-Thickening Charm on herself and refused to listen to the fourteen eyewitnesses who insisted that they had seen the Slytherin Keeper, Miles Bletchley, hit her from behind with a jinx while she worked in the library. Order of the Phoenix

Other than that, during Harry's detentions with Snape after the Sectumsempra incident, we actually do get to see the things James and Sirius were punished for (a very sick idea of punishment, I think), and it's nothing even close to relentlessly bullying or anything actually serious.

It was, as Harry had anticipated, useless, boring work, punctuated (as Snape had clearly planned) with the regular jolt in the stomach that meant he had just read his father or Sirius' names, usually coupled together in various petty misdeeds, occasionally accompanied by those of Remus Lupin and Peter Pettigrew. Half-Blood Prince, Sectumsempra

Fanon: James only saved Snape because he was scared of the consequences for them!

Canon: That is the way Snape tells the story. From his point of view, and the instances in which he tells it are both moments in which he's trying to taint James' image, first to his orphaned son, then to Lily.

'I would hate you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter,' he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. 'Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you – your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts.' Prisoner of Azkaban, Snape's Grudge

Highly unlikely; if Snape had died, who would have told on Sirius? Anyways, this twisted version of the events is further disproved by Lupin in the Shack.

' [...] you see, Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me –' Black made a derisive noise. 'It served him right,' he sneered. 'Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to... hoping he could get us expelled...' 'Severus was very interested in where I went every month,' Lupin told Harry, Ron and Hermione. 'We were in the same year. you know, and we – er – didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James' talent on the Quidditch pitch... anyway, Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madame Pomfrey one evening as she led me towards the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be – er – amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it – if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf – but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life... Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden to tell anybody by Dumbledore, but from that time on he knew what I was...' 'So that's why Snape doesn't like you?' said Harry slowly, 'because he thought you were in on the joke?' 'That's right,' sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin. Prisoner of Azkaban, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs

Fanon: James only hated Snape 'because he exists'

Canon: It was a throwaway line. Remus, Sirius and even Dumbledore made it clear they hated each other equally and James especially disliked him for practising the Dark Arts.

'Well,' said James, appearing to deliberate the point, 'it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean.' Many of the surrounding students laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and nor did Lily. 'You think you're funny,' she said coldly. 'But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.' Order of the Phoenix, Snape's Worst Memory

And on the other hand, Snape hated James because he was... good at Quidditch and people liked him? And because he fancied Lily, who did not reciprocate the feelings at all? And that's why he spent all his time peeping in his and the Marauders' business, trying to get him expelled?

'I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.' [...] 'I didn't mean – I just don't want to see you made a fool of – he fancies you! James Potter fancies you!' the words seemed wrenched out of him against his will. 'And he's not... Everyone thinks... Big Quidditch hero –' Snape's bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily's eyebrows were travelling further and further up her forehead. Deathly Hallows, The Prince's Tale

Even going as far as bad-mouthing the memory of a dead man to his orphaned thirteen-year-old son, who he never got to meet... and using the same excuses.

'How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter, ' Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting. 'He, too, was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch pitch made him think he was a cut above the rest of us, too. Strutting around the place with his friends and admirers... the resemblance between you is uncanny.' 'My dad didn't strut,' said Harry, before he could stop himself. 'and nor do I.' 'Your father didn't set much store by rules, either,' Snape went on, pressing his advantage, his thin face full of malice. 'Rules were for lesser mortals, not Quidditch Cup-winners. His head was so swollen –' 'SHUT UP!' Prisoner of Azkaban, Snape's Grudge

Now, I'm sure I could find many more examples to disprove the way fanon has painted James Potter, but this post is long enough and I don't find it necessary.

In conclusion, the rose-coloured glasses Snape stans have put on to look at his entire character are as good as the unoriginal and completely made-up rhetorics they continuously spit out to make Snape seem a tormented soul free of faults, and to make James out to be the bigot terrorist madman Snape was.

Just remember, when you hate on James Potter, you are getting angry over facts you made up in your head!

[severvs-snape]

Just remember, when you hate on James Potter, you are getting angry over facts you made up in your head!

which is what you are doing, in this post

james was a bully, to snape and other students. snape was their victim. this is directly described

Remus functioned as the conscience of this group, but it was an occasionally faulty conscience. He did not approve of their relentless bullying of Severus Snape, but he loved James and Sirius so much, and was so grateful for their acceptance, that he did not always stand up to them as much as he knew he should.

of course they both hated each other- harry and snape both hate each other, and harry is still his victim. snape hated james because he attacked and ridiculed him. no one accuses james of being a bigot terrorist madman, or that snape is free of faults- james was only a disgusting bully, before he improved

james' hexing others is not the same as using the dark arts. that does not mean he wasn't still a bully- hexing is what he does to bully snape in SWM. lily screams and condemns him for it- and remus further states that he had to stop it for lily to consider him. lily wasn't a stick in the mud- he was a bully

and james and sirius are never said to be 'top of the class' or better at any magic than snape

[oxydiane]

which is what you’re doing, in this post.

james was a bully, to snape and other students. snape was their victim. rhis is directly described

It really is not, I literally handcopied almost every book quote that mentions James and/or Snape in that context. Snape was never their victim because their feud was not one sided, he fought back and actively tormented other students with his friends.

Again, I could not care less about whatever the author has decided to say post publication of her books. If she wanted James and Sirius to be relentless bullies, she could have written it at absolutely any point, but she didn’t. It just isn’t there.

of course they both hated each other- harry and snape both hate each other, and harry is still his victim.

Except, it is not the same as all. Snape bullying Harry (and any of his students) is especially problematic because he has power over them. He is one of their professors, who should be impartial figures. He is one of the figures that hold power in their formative years, and he actively abuses that power to bully the children that are under his care. Harry is his victim because Snape holds power over him and Harry cannot fight back. There is a clear power dynamic here that makes Harry the easy target who is vulnerable that was not there for Snape during his school years because he simply wasn’t. He disliked James since the first day and was never shy to curse him, not to talk about the fact he was going around with his friends cursing other students already. Is that not considered bullying?

James’ hexing […] Lily wasn’t a stick in the mud - He was a bully

This post is not about James being a saint, it’s about the way fandom wrongfully paints him as Snape’s “relentless bully all thorough highschool” when he was never stated or described as that. And it was always very clear that it was a mutual thing.

and james and sirius are never said to be ‘top of the class’ or better at any magic than snape

Yes they literally are, did you not read the books?

‘Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang. Both very bright, of course - exceptionally bright, in fact - […]’

‘James was everything Snape wanted to be - he was popular, he was good at Quidditch - good at pretty much everything.’

You can hate James and Sirius all you want, but the amount and level of magic they were able to achieve in just their school year alone is something you cannot ignore. During SWM, they are easily taking their OWLs (exam that usually stresses most people out or at least requires them to study) and confident they are going to get top marks, without even needing to revise. The Map’s creation alone, it is an exceptional piece of magic no other witch or wizard had been pulled off before, and same goes for the Animagi Transformation which not even fully grown people are able to successfully pull off all the time (they completed the transformation before Minerva McGonagall did at her age). He was made Head-boy in his seventh-year, which is a title given to the best students in the school.

‘Look, Harry, what you’ve got to understand is that your father and Sirius were the best in the school at whatever they did - everyone thought they were the height of cool - if they sometimes got a bit carried away - ‘

‘It took them the best part of three years to work out how to do it. Your father and Sirius were the cleverest students in the school, and lucky they were, because the Animagus transformation can go horribly wrong - one reason the Ministry keeps a close watch on those attempting it to do it.’

Bitterness will corrode your insides!

[severvs-snape]

he fought back and actively tormented other students with his friends.

he did fight back againt his bullies- which is fighting back against his bullies. harry talks back to dudley. there is nothing about snape actively tormenting other students with his friends- lily only ever accuses him of being friends with people who attacked mary

Again, I could not care less about whatever the author has decided to say post publication of her books.

her writing on pottermore is canon. that you ignore it doesn't make it less so. and she did put it in the books- she directly parallels harry's experiences of bullying with snape's. you're being willfully obtuse

not to talk about the fact he was going around with his friends cursing other students already. Is that not considered bullying?

you've yet to prove he attacked anyone other than james, in retaliation. he was his relentless bully. fighting back ≠ mutual. the thought that victims can never fight back against their abusers is abhorrent

This post is not about James being a saint

right, he wasn't a saint- he bullied snape and others. do you think if anyone he hexed hexed him back- they wouldn't be a victim anymore?

i know there's a power dynamic between snape and harry- the point is that mutual hate doesn't change the bully-victim dynamic. if snape weren't a professor, and he bullied harry, he'd still be the bully

did you not read the books?

did you? minerva never says they were top of the class, only remus, their best friend, says they were 'the cleverest' in what's clear hyperbole. 'top of the class' is an actual ranking. they weren't the best at potions- that was lily and snape, so they weren't best at everything. remus didn't know it was snape who invented some of the spells en vogue around hogwarts. he's contextualising his words with his personal experience of them. i do agree that they were talented- there's still nothing to say they were better at snape at anything. or even lily. or barty jr. minerva calls them 'exceptionally brilliant', which is also true of lily and snape

and it's only sirius who says he doesn't need to revise for transfiguration, not james, and there's nothing about them not revising for DADA

The Map’s creation alone, it is an exceptional piece of magic no other witch or wizard had been pulled off before

? you made this up- the magic in the map is advanced but not unknown. their real accomplishment was mapping hogwarts thoroughly (they still didn't discover the room of requirement). and there are many who become animagi at similar or younger ages in other parts of the world

Bitterness will corrode your insides!

irony

[oxydiane]

he did fight back againt his bullies- which is fighting back against his bullies. harry talks back to dudley.

Dudley has power over Harry, that is given to him by his parents and by the way he physically overpowers Harry. James and Sirius don’t have any power over Snape and again, there is no evidence of them ever attacking him before SWM or Snape only ever attacking them back as “self defence”. What is canon is that Snape and James detested each other and Snape never lost a chance to curse James.

there is nothing about snape actively tormenting other students with his friends- lily only ever accuses him of being friends with people who attacked mary

Now you’re straight up ignoring canon, because Lily confronts him about standing there as his friends use Dark Magic on one of their schoolmates and he says it was “just a laugh.” He actively tormented students with his circle of DE friends, that is canon.

her writing on pottermore is canon. that you ignore it doesn’t make it less so. and she did put it in the books- she directly parallels harry’s experiences of bullying with snape’s. you’re being willfully obtuse

Again, I’m not being “obtuse”, I’m telling you that I do not care about what any author claims happened in their books, especially when it was never shown in canon. She can say anything she wants after the publication, what is canon to me is what was written in the books, because if she intended James and Sirius to be “relentless bullies” to Snape she could have very well written that in— There were countless opportunities, but it is NEVER indicated. It was her own afterthought, blame her. The “parallel” doesn’t work, when Harry experienced bullying it was always on a clear power dynamic that was not there with the Marauders and Snape, and he never attacked people back. It just doesn’t work, if that was her intention, it was poorly executed and at the end of the day the execution is what matters, not whatever you think she intended.

you’ve yet to prove he attacked anyone other than james, in retaliation. he was his relentless bully. fighting back ≠ mutual. the thought that victims can never fight back against their abusers is abhorrent

The fact that he stood by laughing at his friend using Dark Magic on other students and that one of his made-up Dark Magic spells was very popular during their school time isn’t proof enough he was tormenting other students, but an isolated instance of James attacking Snape after Snape tried to expose Remus’ werewolf condition, with zero indication he ever did anything like that before fifth year and a clear statement it was mutual makes him a relentless bully?

right, he wasn’t a saint- he bullied snape and others. do you think if anyone he hexed hexed him back- they wouldn’t be a victim anymore?

There is no evidence of James “bullying others”, and again, never bullied Snape. Snape wasn’t a victim.

i know there’s a power dynamic between snape and harry- the point is that mutual hate doesn’t change the bully-victim dynamic. if snape weren’t a professor, and he bullied harry, he’d still be the bully

The definition of bullying is to seek harm, intimidation or coercion to somebody perceived as vulnerable. The notion of bullying in itself is based on a power dynamic. You cannot compare Snape tormenting Harry to James and Snape tormenting each other because it’s simple as that: Snape would use his position of power to make Harry’s life hell for no reason and Snape and James disliked each other and would attack each other. It is REPEATEDLY stated.

did you? minerva never says they were top of the class, only remus, their best friend, says they were 'the cleverest’ in what’s clear hyperbole. 'top of the class’ is an actual ranking. they weren’t the best at potions- that was lily and snape, so they weren’t best at everything. remus didn’t know it was snape who invented some of the spells en vogue around hogwarts. he’s contextualising his words with his personal experience of them. i do agree that they were talented- there’s still nothing to say they were better at snape at anything. or even lily. or barty jr. minerva calls them 'exceptionally brilliant’, which is also true of lily and snape

Best at potions was just Lily, and we know because Slughorn talks about her a lot, not Snape. Minerva McGonagall is not known to hand out compliments, and why would Remus… make that up, lol. They were recognised as some of the best students in the school, and they were popular because of that too.

and it’s only sirius who says he doesn’t need to revise for transfiguration, not james, and there’s nothing about them not revising for DADA

I feel like reading the scene it’s very clear they are on the same level regarding academics and their confidence in them, lol. Do you need it spelled it out…? Because I don’t think James was written to be preoccupied with revising for Transfiguration or his results.

? you made this up- the magic in the map is advanced but not unknown. their real accomplishment was mapping hogwarts thoroughly (they still didn’t discover the room of requirement).

Yes, exactly. They mapped Hogwarts with the Map, which is something no other witch or wizard had accomplished before, thank you for proving my point. And nobody knew about the ROR before Dobby told Harry for the DA, so your point…? They weren’t smart because they couldn’t find the Room?

and there are many who become animagi at similar or younger ages in other parts of the world

Wooow this really is a funny way to dismiss their accomplishments. There is literally no canon evidence for this, you made this up in your head. There were only seven Animagi registered in the twentieth century, one being Minerva McGonagall and the other six unknown. The process to become an Animagus is extremely complex and dangerous, becoming Animagi at younger than fifteen is not common in “other parts of the world”, I really have no idea where you took that from.

irony

You are deluded, friend.

[severvs-snape]

James and Sirius don’t have any power over Snape

bullying is not limited to a defined, institutional power dynamic- that's absurd. draco bullies hermione. attacking and harassing others is bullying

Now you’re straight up ignoring canon, because Lily confronts him about standing there as his friends use Dark Magic on one of their schoolmates and he says it was “just a laugh.”

re-read the books. lily asks him if he knows what mulciber did to mary- there was nothing about him standing there

but it is NEVER indicated

it's more than indicated, lol. you just don't like it. it's delusional to disregard it being explicitly written that they were relentless bullies

There is no evidence of James “bullying others”, and again, never bullied Snape. Snape wasn’t a victim.

the evidence is him hexing people for the fun of it, including snape, which lily resolutely condemns. unless you think lily is a stick in the mud who's upset at harmless jokes, or that it's impossible to bully others by hexing. snape is a victim of james and sirius- he fights back

The definition of bullying is to seek harm, intimidation or coercion to somebody perceived as vulnerable.

'vulnerable' here doesn't (only) mean institutional power. luna was also bullied by her housemates

and a clear statement it was mutual makes him a relentless bully?

it being explicitly written he was a relentless bully makes him so. there is nothing about snape 'standing by'

Best at potions was just Lily

no, lol. slughorn does compliment snape's ability- if you're asking why he talks more to an orphan about his famous dead mother and not his professor- three guesses. he thinks harry's potions ability surpasses lily's- and his ability is from snape's work. it's snape who's the prince, lol, not lily. slughorn also never says lily was the best-only one of his brightest

They were recognised as some of the best students in the school, and they were popular because of that too.

yes, some of the best, not the best, or better at snape at anything. i didn't say minerva hands out compliments- she never says they were top of the class. lupin is not making things up, he's being hyperbolic. if snape and lily are the best at potions, they're not best at everything. his statement is already shown to be hyperbole

And nobody knew about the ROR before Dobby told Harry for the DA, so your point…?

? voldemort. draco discovered it independently. the room has been helping students for generations. my point is that their map work is not magical work, and even then they couldn't map everything

I feel like reading the scene it’s very clear they are on the same level regarding academics

it's clear because you made that up. james doesn't have to preoccupied then to study later

There is literally no canon evidence for this

try a google search before you write things. the process to become an animagus was written, and that there are animagi as young as 14 in other parts of the world

You are deluded, friend.

you are actively ignoring,misinterpreting or making things up to your headcanon. lol

[oxydiane]

Fanon: James bullied Snape for being poor/ugly!

Canon: Not even mentioned once.

'Look, Harry, James and Snape hated each other the moment they set eyes on each other, [...] And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts, and James – whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry – always hated the Dark Arts.' Order of the Phoenix, Careers Advice

Fanon: Yeah, but he bullied Snape since day one, and he wasn't a Death Eater then!

Canon: There is actually no proof James 'tormented' Snape since day one. What did happen was James sitting in their compartment and making a comment on how he'd never want to be a Slytherin in a time in which a Dark Lord, notoriously Slytherin, was rising, and all his supporters were affiliated with that house. And then Snape was made fun of by Sirius after he insulted Gryffindors.

'Maybe I'll break the tradition. Where are you heading, if you've got the choice?' James lifted an invisible sword. 'Gryffindor, where dwell the brave at heart! Like my dad.' Snape made a small, disparaging noise. James turned on him. 'Got a problem with that?' 'No,' said Snape, though his slight sneer said otherwise. 'If you'd rather be brawny than brainy –' 'Where're you hoping to go, seeing as you're neither?' interjected Sirius. Deathly Hallows, The Prince's Tale

Maybe he is so bitter because James ended up having both brawn and brains, seeing he was a 'hero Quidditch player' and the top student of the school, along with Sirius, but that's just me speculating... anyways. Later in the same memory, Snape is talking to Lily, who is complaining about how creepy Snape's friends are and how awful it is he finds Dark Magic funny. Snape deflects by mentioning James and the other Marauders and the 'stuff they get up to', only mentioning how they sneak around at night; if James was relentlessly bullying him, using Dark Magic or whatever people say these days, wouldn't he have mentioned it?

'That was nothing,' said Snape. 'It was a laugh, that's all.' 'It was Dark Magic, and if you think that's funny –' 'What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?' demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment. 'What's Potter got to do with anything?' said Lily. 'They sneak out at night.' [...] 'Why are you so obsessed with them, anyway? Why do you care what they're doing at night?' 'I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.' The intensity of his glare made her blush. 'They don't use Dark Magic, though.' Deathly Hallows, The Prince's Tale

Fanon: James was the big bad bully and Snape was his helpless victim!

Canon: It is repeatedly stated that they disliked each other and were often at each other's throats, as is stated that Snape was never shy to hex James as well.

'Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr Malfoy. And then your father did something Snape could never forgive. 'What?' 'He saved his life.' Philosopher's Stone, The Man With Two Faces

'And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it,' said Lupin. 'Even Snape?' said Harry. 'Well,' said Lupin, slowly. 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?' Order of the Phoenix, Careers Advice

Fanon: James did not bully Snape only! He bullied other students as well!

Canon: James hexed people for 'fun', but that is not something seen as evil as, I don't know, inventing spells to cut people open and actually doing it... (Snape cut James' cheek open in SWM, before being Levicurpus'ed, but I don't see anybody talking about that?) as he's definitely not the only one and hexes are something very trivial – as Lupin says.

' [...] One of them was Levicurpus –' 'Oh, that one had a great vogue during my time at Hogwarts,' said Lupin reminiscently. 'There were a few months in my fifth year when you couldn't move for being hoisted into the air by your ankle.' 'My dad used it,' said Harry. 'I saw him in the Pensieve, he used it on Snape.' He tried to sound casual, as though this was a throwaway comment of no real importance, but he was not sure he had achieved the right effect; Lupin's smile was a little too understanding. 'Yes,' he said, 'but he wasn't the only one. As I say, it was very popular... you know how these spells come and go...' Half-Blood Prince, A Very Frosty Christmas

In the very same book, Ginny is praised for her skill at hexing people (her Bat-Boogey Hex being the most notorious). People also often (jokingly?) threaten to hex others.

'Harry,' Fred began, but Harry pulled out his wand. 'Look,' he said flatly. 'take it, or I'll hex you. [...]' Goblet of Fire, The Beginning

'That's my final decision and if you don't get out of the way for the Keepers I'll hex you,' he bellowed Half-Blood Prince, Hermione's Helping Hand

Snape was no less obviously partisan: He had booked the Quidditch pitch for Slytherin practice so often that the Gryffindors had difficulty getting on it to play. He was also turning a deaf ear to the many reports of Slytherin attempts to hex Gryffindor players in the corridors. When Alicia Spinnet turned up in the hospital wing with her eyebrows growing so thick and fast that they obscured her vision and obstructed her mouth, Snape insisted that she must have attempted a Hair-Thickening Charm on herself and refused to listen to the fourteen eyewitnesses who insisted that they had seen the Slytherin Keeper, Miles Bletchley, hit her from behind with a jinx while she worked in the library. Order of the Phoenix

Other than that, during Harry's detentions with Snape after the Sectumsempra incident, we actually do get to see the things James and Sirius were punished for (a very sick idea of punishment, I think), and it's nothing even close to relentlessly bullying or anything actually serious.

It was, as Harry had anticipated, useless, boring work, punctuated (as Snape had clearly planned) with the regular jolt in the stomach that meant he had just read his father or Sirius' names, usually coupled together in various petty misdeeds, occasionally accompanied by those of Remus Lupin and Peter Pettigrew. Half-Blood Prince, Sectumsempra

Fanon: James only saved Snape because he was scared of the consequences for them!

Canon: That is the way Snape tells the story. From his point of view, and the instances in which he tells it are both moments in which he's trying to taint James' image, first to his orphaned son, then to Lily.

'I would hate you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter,' he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. 'Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you – your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts.' Prisoner of Azkaban, Snape's Grudge

Highly unlikely; if Snape had died, who would have told on Sirius? Anyways, this twisted version of the events is further disproved by Lupin in the Shack.

' [...] you see, Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me –' Black made a derisive noise. 'It served him right,' he sneered. 'Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to... hoping he could get us expelled...' 'Severus was very interested in where I went every month,' Lupin told Harry, Ron and Hermione. 'We were in the same year. you know, and we – er – didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James' talent on the Quidditch pitch... anyway, Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madame Pomfrey one evening as she led me towards the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be – er – amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it – if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf – but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life... Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden to tell anybody by Dumbledore, but from that time on he knew what I was...' 'So that's why Snape doesn't like you?' said Harry slowly, 'because he thought you were in on the joke?' 'That's right,' sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin. Prisoner of Azkaban, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs

Fanon: James only hated Snape 'because he exists'

Canon: It was a throwaway line. Remus, Sirius and even Dumbledore made it clear they hated each other equally and James especially disliked him for practising the Dark Arts.

'Well,' said James, appearing to deliberate the point, 'it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean.' Many of the surrounding students laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and nor did Lily. 'You think you're funny,' she said coldly. 'But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.' Order of the Phoenix, Snape's Worst Memory

And on the other hand, Snape hated James because he was... good at Quidditch and people liked him? And because he fancied Lily, who did not reciprocate the feelings at all? And that's why he spent all his time peeping in his and the Marauders' business, trying to get him expelled?

'I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.' [...] 'I didn't mean – I just don't want to see you made a fool of – he fancies you! James Potter fancies you!' the words seemed wrenched out of him against his will. 'And he's not... Everyone thinks... Big Quidditch hero –' Snape's bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily's eyebrows were travelling further and further up her forehead. Deathly Hallows, The Prince's Tale

Even going as far as bad-mouthing the memory of a dead man to his orphaned thirteen-year-old son, who he never got to meet... and using the same excuses.

'How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter, ' Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting. 'He, too, was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch pitch made him think he was a cut above the rest of us, too. Strutting around the place with his friends and admirers... the resemblance between you is uncanny.' 'My dad didn't strut,' said Harry, before he could stop himself. 'and nor do I.' 'Your father didn't set much store by rules, either,' Snape went on, pressing his advantage, his thin face full of malice. 'Rules were for lesser mortals, not Quidditch Cup-winners. His head was so swollen –' 'SHUT UP!' Prisoner of Azkaban, Snape's Grudge

Now, I'm sure I could find many more examples to disprove the way fanon has painted James Potter, but this post is long enough and I don't find it necessary.

In conclusion, the rose-coloured glasses Snape stans have put on to look at his entire character are as good as the unoriginal and completely made-up rhetorics they continuously spit out to make Snape seem a tormented soul free of faults, and to make James out to be the bigot terrorist madman Snape was.

Just remember, when you hate on James Potter, you are getting angry over facts you made up in your head!

[severvs-snape]

Just remember, when you hate on James Potter, you are getting angry over facts you made up in your head!

which is what you are doing, in this post

james was a bully, to snape and other students. snape was their victim. this is directly described

Remus functioned as the conscience of this group, but it was an occasionally faulty conscience. He did not approve of their relentless bullying of Severus Snape, but he loved James and Sirius so much, and was so grateful for their acceptance, that he did not always stand up to them as much as he knew he should.

of course they both hated each other- harry and snape both hate each other, and harry is still his victim. snape hated james because he attacked and ridiculed him. no one accuses james of being a bigot terrorist madman, or that snape is free of faults- james was only a disgusting bully, before he improved

james' hexing others is not the same as using the dark arts. that does not mean he wasn't still a bully- hexing is what he does to bully snape in SWM. lily screams and condemns him for it- and remus further states that he had to stop it for lily to consider him. lily wasn't a stick in the mud- he was a bully

and james and sirius are never said to be 'top of the class' or better at any magic than snape

[oxydiane]

which is what you’re doing, in this post.

james was a bully, to snape and other students. snape was their victim. rhis is directly described

It really is not, I literally handcopied almost every book quote that mentions James and/or Snape in that context. Snape was never their victim because their feud was not one sided, he fought back and actively tormented other students with his friends.

Again, I could not care less about whatever the author has decided to say post publication of her books. If she wanted James and Sirius to be relentless bullies, she could have written it at absolutely any point, but she didn’t. It just isn’t there.

of course they both hated each other- harry and snape both hate each other, and harry is still his victim.

Except, it is not the same as all. Snape bullying Harry (and any of his students) is especially problematic because he has power over them. He is one of their professors, who should be impartial figures. He is one of the figures that hold power in their formative years, and he actively abuses that power to bully the children that are under his care. Harry is his victim because Snape holds power over him and Harry cannot fight back. There is a clear power dynamic here that makes Harry the easy target who is vulnerable that was not there for Snape during his school years because he simply wasn’t. He disliked James since the first day and was never shy to curse him, not to talk about the fact he was going around with his friends cursing other students already. Is that not considered bullying?

James’ hexing […] Lily wasn’t a stick in the mud - He was a bully

This post is not about James being a saint, it’s about the way fandom wrongfully paints him as Snape’s “relentless bully all thorough highschool” when he was never stated or described as that. And it was always very clear that it was a mutual thing.

and james and sirius are never said to be ‘top of the class’ or better at any magic than snape

Yes they literally are, did you not read the books?

‘Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang. Both very bright, of course - exceptionally bright, in fact - […]’

‘James was everything Snape wanted to be - he was popular, he was good at Quidditch - good at pretty much everything.’

You can hate James and Sirius all you want, but the amount and level of magic they were able to achieve in just their school year alone is something you cannot ignore. During SWM, they are easily taking their OWLs (exam that usually stresses most people out or at least requires them to study) and confident they are going to get top marks, without even needing to revise. The Map’s creation alone, it is an exceptional piece of magic no other witch or wizard had been pulled off before, and same goes for the Animagi Transformation which not even fully grown people are able to successfully pull off all the time (they completed the transformation before Minerva McGonagall did at her age). He was made Head-boy in his seventh-year, which is a title given to the best students in the school.

‘Look, Harry, what you’ve got to understand is that your father and Sirius were the best in the school at whatever they did - everyone thought they were the height of cool - if they sometimes got a bit carried away - ‘

‘It took them the best part of three years to work out how to do it. Your father and Sirius were the cleverest students in the school, and lucky they were, because the Animagus transformation can go horribly wrong - one reason the Ministry keeps a close watch on those attempting it to do it.’

Bitterness will corrode your insides!

[severvs-snape]

he fought back and actively tormented other students with his friends.

he did fight back againt his bullies- which is fighting back against his bullies. harry talks back to dudley. there is nothing about snape actively tormenting other students with his friends- lily only ever accuses him of being friends with people who attacked mary

Again, I could not care less about whatever the author has decided to say post publication of her books.

her writing on pottermore is canon. that you ignore it doesn't make it less so. and she did put it in the books- she directly parallels harry's experiences of bullying with snape's. you're being willfully obtuse

not to talk about the fact he was going around with his friends cursing other students already. Is that not considered bullying?

you've yet to prove he attacked anyone other than james, in retaliation. he was his relentless bully. fighting back ≠ mutual. the thought that victims can never fight back against their abusers is abhorrent

This post is not about James being a saint

right, he wasn't a saint- he bullied snape and others. do you think if anyone he hexed hexed him back- they wouldn't be a victim anymore?

i know there's a power dynamic between snape and harry- the point is that mutual hate doesn't change the bully-victim dynamic. if snape weren't a professor, and he bullied harry, he'd still be the bully

did you not read the books?

did you? minerva never says they were top of the class, only remus, their best friend, says they were 'the cleverest' in what's clear hyperbole. 'top of the class' is an actual ranking. they weren't the best at potions- that was lily and snape, so they weren't best at everything. remus didn't know it was snape who invented some of the spells en vogue around hogwarts. he's contextualising his words with his personal experience of them. i do agree that they were talented- there's still nothing to say they were better at snape at anything. or even lily. or barty jr. minerva calls them 'exceptionally brilliant', which is also true of lily and snape

and it's only sirius who says he doesn't need to revise for transfiguration, not james, and there's nothing about them not revising for DADA

The Map’s creation alone, it is an exceptional piece of magic no other witch or wizard had been pulled off before

? you made this up- the magic in the map is advanced but not unknown. their real accomplishment was mapping hogwarts thoroughly (they still didn't discover the room of requirement). and there are many who become animagi at similar or younger ages in other parts of the world

Bitterness will corrode your insides!

irony

[oxydiane]

Fanon: James bullied Snape for being poor/ugly!

Canon: Not even mentioned once.

'Look, Harry, James and Snape hated each other the moment they set eyes on each other, [...] And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts, and James – whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry – always hated the Dark Arts.' Order of the Phoenix, Careers Advice

Fanon: Yeah, but he bullied Snape since day one, and he wasn't a Death Eater then!

Canon: There is actually no proof James 'tormented' Snape since day one. What did happen was James sitting in their compartment and making a comment on how he'd never want to be a Slytherin in a time in which a Dark Lord, notoriously Slytherin, was rising, and all his supporters were affiliated with that house. And then Snape was made fun of by Sirius after he insulted Gryffindors.

'Maybe I'll break the tradition. Where are you heading, if you've got the choice?' James lifted an invisible sword. 'Gryffindor, where dwell the brave at heart! Like my dad.' Snape made a small, disparaging noise. James turned on him. 'Got a problem with that?' 'No,' said Snape, though his slight sneer said otherwise. 'If you'd rather be brawny than brainy –' 'Where're you hoping to go, seeing as you're neither?' interjected Sirius. Deathly Hallows, The Prince's Tale

Maybe he is so bitter because James ended up having both brawn and brains, seeing he was a 'hero Quidditch player' and the top student of the school, along with Sirius, but that's just me speculating... anyways. Later in the same memory, Snape is talking to Lily, who is complaining about how creepy Snape's friends are and how awful it is he finds Dark Magic funny. Snape deflects by mentioning James and the other Marauders and the 'stuff they get up to', only mentioning how they sneak around at night; if James was relentlessly bullying him, using Dark Magic or whatever people say these days, wouldn't he have mentioned it?

'That was nothing,' said Snape. 'It was a laugh, that's all.' 'It was Dark Magic, and if you think that's funny –' 'What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?' demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment. 'What's Potter got to do with anything?' said Lily. 'They sneak out at night.' [...] 'Why are you so obsessed with them, anyway? Why do you care what they're doing at night?' 'I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.' The intensity of his glare made her blush. 'They don't use Dark Magic, though.' Deathly Hallows, The Prince's Tale

Fanon: James was the big bad bully and Snape was his helpless victim!

Canon: It is repeatedly stated that they disliked each other and were often at each other's throats, as is stated that Snape was never shy to hex James as well.

'Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr Malfoy. And then your father did something Snape could never forgive. 'What?' 'He saved his life.' Philosopher's Stone, The Man With Two Faces

'And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it,' said Lupin. 'Even Snape?' said Harry. 'Well,' said Lupin, slowly. 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?' Order of the Phoenix, Careers Advice

Fanon: James did not bully Snape only! He bullied other students as well!

Canon: James hexed people for 'fun', but that is not something seen as evil as, I don't know, inventing spells to cut people open and actually doing it... (Snape cut James' cheek open in SWM, before being Levicurpus'ed, but I don't see anybody talking about that?) as he's definitely not the only one and hexes are something very trivial – as Lupin says.

' [...] One of them was Levicurpus –' 'Oh, that one had a great vogue during my time at Hogwarts,' said Lupin reminiscently. 'There were a few months in my fifth year when you couldn't move for being hoisted into the air by your ankle.' 'My dad used it,' said Harry. 'I saw him in the Pensieve, he used it on Snape.' He tried to sound casual, as though this was a throwaway comment of no real importance, but he was not sure he had achieved the right effect; Lupin's smile was a little too understanding. 'Yes,' he said, 'but he wasn't the only one. As I say, it was very popular... you know how these spells come and go...' Half-Blood Prince, A Very Frosty Christmas

In the very same book, Ginny is praised for her skill at hexing people (her Bat-Boogey Hex being the most notorious). People also often (jokingly?) threaten to hex others.

'Harry,' Fred began, but Harry pulled out his wand. 'Look,' he said flatly. 'take it, or I'll hex you. [...]' Goblet of Fire, The Beginning

'That's my final decision and if you don't get out of the way for the Keepers I'll hex you,' he bellowed Half-Blood Prince, Hermione's Helping Hand

Snape was no less obviously partisan: He had booked the Quidditch pitch for Slytherin practice so often that the Gryffindors had difficulty getting on it to play. He was also turning a deaf ear to the many reports of Slytherin attempts to hex Gryffindor players in the corridors. When Alicia Spinnet turned up in the hospital wing with her eyebrows growing so thick and fast that they obscured her vision and obstructed her mouth, Snape insisted that she must have attempted a Hair-Thickening Charm on herself and refused to listen to the fourteen eyewitnesses who insisted that they had seen the Slytherin Keeper, Miles Bletchley, hit her from behind with a jinx while she worked in the library. Order of the Phoenix

Other than that, during Harry's detentions with Snape after the Sectumsempra incident, we actually do get to see the things James and Sirius were punished for (a very sick idea of punishment, I think), and it's nothing even close to relentlessly bullying or anything actually serious.

It was, as Harry had anticipated, useless, boring work, punctuated (as Snape had clearly planned) with the regular jolt in the stomach that meant he had just read his father or Sirius' names, usually coupled together in various petty misdeeds, occasionally accompanied by those of Remus Lupin and Peter Pettigrew. Half-Blood Prince, Sectumsempra

Fanon: James only saved Snape because he was scared of the consequences for them!

Canon: That is the way Snape tells the story. From his point of view, and the instances in which he tells it are both moments in which he's trying to taint James' image, first to his orphaned son, then to Lily.

'I would hate you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter,' he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. 'Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you – your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts.' Prisoner of Azkaban, Snape's Grudge

Highly unlikely; if Snape had died, who would have told on Sirius? Anyways, this twisted version of the events is further disproved by Lupin in the Shack.

' [...] you see, Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me –' Black made a derisive noise. 'It served him right,' he sneered. 'Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to... hoping he could get us expelled...' 'Severus was very interested in where I went every month,' Lupin told Harry, Ron and Hermione. 'We were in the same year. you know, and we – er – didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James' talent on the Quidditch pitch... anyway, Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madame Pomfrey one evening as she led me towards the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be – er – amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it – if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf – but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life... Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden to tell anybody by Dumbledore, but from that time on he knew what I was...' 'So that's why Snape doesn't like you?' said Harry slowly, 'because he thought you were in on the joke?' 'That's right,' sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin. Prisoner of Azkaban, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs

Fanon: James only hated Snape 'because he exists'

Canon: It was a throwaway line. Remus, Sirius and even Dumbledore made it clear they hated each other equally and James especially disliked him for practising the Dark Arts.

'Well,' said James, appearing to deliberate the point, 'it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean.' Many of the surrounding students laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and nor did Lily. 'You think you're funny,' she said coldly. 'But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.' Order of the Phoenix, Snape's Worst Memory

And on the other hand, Snape hated James because he was... good at Quidditch and people liked him? And because he fancied Lily, who did not reciprocate the feelings at all? And that's why he spent all his time peeping in his and the Marauders' business, trying to get him expelled?

'I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.' [...] 'I didn't mean – I just don't want to see you made a fool of – he fancies you! James Potter fancies you!' the words seemed wrenched out of him against his will. 'And he's not... Everyone thinks... Big Quidditch hero –' Snape's bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily's eyebrows were travelling further and further up her forehead. Deathly Hallows, The Prince's Tale

Even going as far as bad-mouthing the memory of a dead man to his orphaned thirteen-year-old son, who he never got to meet... and using the same excuses.

'How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter, ' Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting. 'He, too, was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch pitch made him think he was a cut above the rest of us, too. Strutting around the place with his friends and admirers... the resemblance between you is uncanny.' 'My dad didn't strut,' said Harry, before he could stop himself. 'and nor do I.' 'Your father didn't set much store by rules, either,' Snape went on, pressing his advantage, his thin face full of malice. 'Rules were for lesser mortals, not Quidditch Cup-winners. His head was so swollen –' 'SHUT UP!' Prisoner of Azkaban, Snape's Grudge

Now, I'm sure I could find many more examples to disprove the way fanon has painted James Potter, but this post is long enough and I don't find it necessary.

In conclusion, the rose-coloured glasses Snape stans have put on to look at his entire character are as good as the unoriginal and completely made-up rhetorics they continuously spit out to make Snape seem a tormented soul free of faults, and to make James out to be the bigot terrorist madman Snape was.

Just remember, when you hate on James Potter, you are getting angry over facts you made up in your head!

[severvs-snape]

Just remember, when you hate on James Potter, you are getting angry over facts you made up in your head!

which is what you are doing, in this post

james was a bully, to snape and other students. snape was their victim. this is directly described

Remus functioned as the conscience of this group, but it was an occasionally faulty conscience. He did not approve of their relentless bullying of Severus Snape, but he loved James and Sirius so much, and was so grateful for their acceptance, that he did not always stand up to them as much as he knew he should.

of course they both hated each other- harry and snape both hate each other, and harry is still his victim. snape hated james because he attacked and ridiculed him. no one accuses james of being a bigot terrorist madman, or that snape is free of faults- james was only a disgusting bully, before he improved

james' hexing others is not the same as using the dark arts. that does not mean he wasn't still a bully- hexing is what he does to bully snape in SWM. lily screams and condemns him for it- and remus further states that he had to stop it for lily to consider him. lily wasn't a stick in the mud- he was a bully

and james and sirius are never said to be 'top of the class' or better at any magic than snape

[loud-fandom-thoughts]

How exactly is Snape a “morally grey character?”.

When every “good” thing he did is for his selfish obsession with Lily?

Because without her being murdered he wouldn’t have defected from Voldemort or spied for Dumbledore.

He’d still be happily in the high ranks of Voldemort’s crew.

That he wouldn’t have saved/helped Harry if it wasn’t for Lily.

Who was fine with hanging out with people who hated Muggles. Who hated Lily.

By the way, isn’t it funny that he was willing to leave someone evil because they didn’t keep their promise, but couldn’t leave his bad friend group even though they made Lily uncomfortable. So actually killing her is his limit, but talking about killing her kind isn’t?

So where’s his “good” part of the “morally grey”? You can’t be good when your intentions and reasons are selfish.

[severvs-snape]

he's morally grey within the series because who he is a DE is different to who he is after- lily was the catalyst for his moral reformation. why he left ≠ who he became after

he's also a sadist who bullies children

[severvs-snape]

i realise 'obsession' is a taboo word for pro-snape fandom (which i disagree with). but. what defines snape imo is obsession, relentlessness, drive and passion

this is true of his love (platonic and romantic) of lily, his desire to ruin the marauders, his desire for power and willingness to hurt others as a DE, and finally his own redemption and work for the order- which he pursues as relentlessly as he does anything else

[meltinghouses]

“I obviously don’t think James was a bully” - What do you mean you don’t think he was a bully? Isn’t that canon? What is SWM if not an obvious, stereotypical demonstration of bullying? Genuine question, I’m pro Marauders but I don’t get this

Sigh. I’ve tried to write a full meta on this with relevant quotes but failed each time, so you get the short version (which is still... very long, so putting the majority of this under the cut). James wasn’t a bully because it is explicitly stated - and conveniently ignored by about 99% of the fandom - by both Sirius and Lily whose accounts corroborate each other, and shown in flashbacks, that Snape was part of a rival gang of Slytherin Death Eaters who, by their fifth year, are running around torturing people with Dark Magic. Lily makes it clear that what they’re doing is worse and more violent than the Marauders’ attacks (and the Marauders’ methods are pretty violent themselves), and later also makes it clear that Snape is very much involved in everything that they’re doing and that she’s been making excuses for him and his friends for years (so, like, more or less his entire time at Hogwarts). So, you can take what Sirius and James are doing to Snape in SWM, intensify the violence severalfold, and that is what Snape and his friends are doing to other students (and Muggleborns most often), and Snape is, in the most generous interpretation, ambushing students with his friends and calling them “filthy little Mudbloods” while the other ones violently torture them or aiding and abetting in other ways, and at worst, he is doing plenty of the hexing/cursing himself.

Whether Snape is personally casting the actual curses, or simply flanking his friends as Crabbe/Goyle do, or keeping watch for passers by and teachers while the others torture the students, or intentionally passing on information that facilitates the torture, it doesn’t really matter. Many DEs did things like passing on info that got people tortured/killed, or planned out attacks, or Imperius-ed others to do the war crimes for them, etc. and, when a group of DEs surround and torture and/or murder someone, and only one of them does the actual murdering/torturing, I don’t exactly consider the rest to be uninvolved. It is that Travers “helped murder the Mckinnons”, that Karkaroff “helped torture countless Muggles and non-supporters of the Dark Lord”. Snape is helping his friends doing whatever they’re doing, which, by mid-5th year, have escalated to Death Eater level war crimes at school. 

Because torturing students with Dark Magic casually, for a laugh, is something even actual literal Death Eater Draco Malfoy doesn't do in HBP (Katie Bell is attacked with Dark Magic by mistake, as collateral damage on a specific targeted mission from Voldemort) and in that case, the general student body doesn’t know who is responsible, and Harry spends that entire book trying to get Dumbledore to believe him and do something about it. There is one Death Eater and one Dark Magic attack, and immediately students nearly start leaving the castle because of it (Parvati Patil says that her parents want to pull the twins out of school) and everyone is trying to figure out who did it. The only other potentially similar scenarios to this maybe are: Crabbe and Goyle and others allowed to use the Cruciatus curse on students freely for punishment under the Carrows rule where Hogwarts is a nightmare battleground, or Tom Riddle and his gang of Slytherins (and per HBP many of the members of Snape’s gang are the children of those very first Death Eaters) committing those “nasty incidents” throughout their seven years (which I’m assuming, given what we know about Tom Riddle, many of those were also Dark Magic) escalating to the opening of the Chamber and Myrtle’s murder in which all of them were involved, except in that case those incidents were never successfully connected to them.

Comparatively, in Marauders era a gang of Wannabe Death Eaters (potentially some are even actual DEs at the point of the attack on Mary Macdonald) are being given free reign to run around torturing students openly and on a regular basis. And we know that Voldemort was using Hogwarts as a recruiting ground to build his armies and recruiting minors in the years before the war and throughout the war, so if there are several teen DEs in the Marauders’ year (maybe even more), there’s no reason for that to be a particular exception and there are likely several in every year (and in the younger years, Wannabe DEs being actively recruited/groomed), given that in the year(s) below we also have Regulus and Barty Crouch Jr. as examples. It’s not necessary that all of them are committing the same kind of violence as Mulciber & Co., some might keep a lower profile like BCJ, but like, if one group is doing it, I doubt they’re the only ones.

So I think you can imagine what kind of atmosphere that creates at Hogwarts - something about as terrible/worse than Umbridge’s reign or Hogwarts under the Carrows - particularly when, by SWM, they’re nearly six years into the war (already about triple the time the second war lasts), a pretty significant amount of Hogwarts students would’ve had their families and friends murdered/kidnapped/tortured by Death Eaters and the rest are afraid they’re next, and there are many teen Wannabe and actual murderers running around on campus terrorizing students. Which contextualizes not only what Sirius and James do in SWM, but that there’s a whole crowd of students - and that’s just within their immediate vicinity - who want to see Snape violently beaten up and gleefully cheer them on. This isn’t because Snape is some unpopular loner outcast loser - we are explicitly told by Lily why Snape is unpopular.

Lily, of course, calls James a bully in a scene where she is watching her best friend attacked right in front of her and is trying to talk his attacker down and get him to leave her friend alone. As, I am sure, Sirius would intervene if he had to watch Regulus being attacked the way Snape was in SWM, no matter what his brother had done, even if Sirius knew that Regulus had done worse to others or even if he knew Regulus had already, like, killed people. Because no one likes to watch someone they love being hurt in front of them. But outside of the context of that immediate and public confrontation with James, Lily is completely and utterly unsympathetic to Snape’s bitching about the Marauders despite clearly regularly intervening in their attacks on Snape, makes it very clear that she doesn’t think the Marauders’ actions and Snape’s friends actions are remotely comparable, and then doesn’t even bring the SWM attack up the night of when she finally breaks things off with Snape (Harry, who wrongfully perceives it as bullying, can’t even watch the scene again) and only has things to say about what Snape and his friends are doing (and Lily speaks of them as a singular entity this time - because Lily has stopped making excuses and stopped pretending).

Sirius, of course, doesn’t defend it to Harry. The same way that, I am sure, were the Golden Trio speaking to their fifteen year old children 20 years later with hindsight, after their kids had witnessed a very viscerally violent out of context memory of something like: Harry trying to Crucio Bellatrix and Snape (while laughing and taunting Bellatrix in battle as he goes after her, as Sirius and James laugh at and taunt Snape), Harry then succeeding in using the Cruciatus Curse on a Death Eater in DH, Hermione trapping Rita Skeeter in a jar, Hermione branding Marietta with “sneak”, Hermione letting Umbridge get trampled by centaurs, even some of the violent skirmishes we see with Draco & co. or that the DA has with the Inquisatorial Squad, or any of the other morally grey things they did in a war that felt very necessary at the time, the Golden Trio would also say things like “I don’t know, I’m not proud of that one... maybe we got a bit carried away!”

I don’t think that Snape needed to be an actual Death Eater yet for this to be considered the kids playing out the very real war raging outside on school grounds, given that 1. at that point Snape was about to take the mark probably in like, a few weeks and 2. many of the people who were doing Voldemort’s dirty work similarly were not, in fact, actual Death Eaters with the literal Dark Mark branded on their arms. Crabbe and Goyle were (probably?) not official Death Eaters under the Carrows when they were enthusiastically torturing first years or helping Draco or using Fiendfyre etc. in the Battle of Hogwarts, gangs of Snatchers rounding up Muggleborns and blood traitors during DH were not official Death Eaters, Tom Riddle’s gang were not official Death Eaters while at school because Death Eaters had, like, not been invented yet. Snape and his friends are already doing what Death Eaters do. There is absolutely no reason for this not to be treated as seriously as were it happening outside Hogwarts and a group of Death Eaters tortured a family with Dark Magic and then left the Dark Mark above their house.

TL;DR - the Marauders are doing exactly what the DA do in OOTP and DH, or well, what the Order itself does, which they did join barely a year or two after SWM. They’re just... more violent and more morally grey while doing it. Which I think is very emblematic of both what the First War was like and how much worse it was, and, I mean, the Marauders are just bigger assholes.

[severvs-snape]

most of this is your headcanon that ignores or decontextualises canon

james was a bully because he was explicitly said to be one

Remus functioned as the conscience of this group, but it was an occasionally faulty conscience. He did not approve of their relentless bullying of Severus Snape, but he loved James and Sirius so much, and was so grateful for their acceptance, that he did not always stand up to them as much as he knew he should.

neither lily, or anyone, accuse snape of being complicit in attacking other students. sirius never says he hexed others, or mentions his blood supremacy at all. what they both say is he was friends with them- which does not translate to anything you write. neither does 'making excuses for him' translate to his involvement. or james and sirius' knowledge of any involvement. sirius later never even knows snape was a DE at all

lily calls it bullying because that's what it was- and harry rightfully perceives it as. she further condemns him for hexing others, and lupin confirms james had to stop that behaviour before lily would consider going out with him. there is nothing about them hexing proto-DEs; they were hexing people for the fun of it, because they were bullies. we're also never lead to believe they hex mulciber or any other proto-DE

sirius doesn't defend it to harry- the same way that dudley wouldn't defend his past bullying to his children- because he's contrite

1. at that point Snape was about to take the mark probably in like, a few weeks

? this is baseless

[narcissa-black-supermacy]

Wait, hold up, it’s common for Snape to be more popular than Regulus in a lot of James/Regulus fics? Snape was canonically disliked by a large amount of students, there’s a literal crowd gathered around to watch James and Sirius humiliate him in SWM, and he’s a half-blood in Slytherin, at a time where blood-purity was a major thing considering the literal war going on based on it. There’s no way Slytherin House, who is very well-known for their blood-purity ideals both in HP’s time, is going to rank Snape over a Black. Besides, we know that a lot of Snape’s group became Death Eaters, a movement explicitly based on blood purity, so even if he had friends in the House, they probably looked down on his half-blood status and they sure wouldn’t pick Snape over Regulus Black; they might not like Regulus, but there’s no way they’d ever side with Snape against Regulus

There's been this very...irritating trend with Jegulus(tm) fics (at least from what I've been seeing) to belittle Regulus on purpose so Snape and "the likes of him" (who always somehow end up being Mulciber and Avery for no particular reason?) can ""bully"" him and then we can have a dramatic moment of James standing up to him or something like that.

Which like......I get the appeal, okay? I'm not judging. But at the same time I am. SO hard. I need to wash my eyes out with bleach whenever I accidentally wander into a fic like this.

Mulciber is not even in the Sacred 28 and Avery is nowhere near the level or respect and near-royalty the Blacks are on (let alone their only male heir), and Snape in general is not just a half-blood, but a half-blood with a muggle parent (very different from a half-blood with two wizarding parents), from a muggle city, a very lower-class, poor muggle city. He is wearing his parents' clothes whenever he's not in robes because they're that poor. It's repeatedly stated, how even after he has climbed up the DE ranks, literally nobody (but Lucius Malfoy for some very weird reason) likes him.

I'm getting a headache from just talking about this, Merlin help me.

[severvs-snape]

it's not repeatedly stated that

how even after he has climbed up the DE ranks, literally nobody (but Lucius Malfoy for some very weird reason) likes him.

it's never stated. we see in canon that other DEs are jubilant at lucius' and bella's humiliation in DH

the blacks are near royalty only to themselves, lol

and, there's nothing stopping anyone from bullying regulus for any reason- that he's annoying, or they're more talented than he is, etc

[severvs-snape]

another less direct sirius/bellatrix parallel- through snape

he's described speaking to them similarly- to poke at their insecurities, to a similar effect

in HBP:

“My information has been conveyed directly to the Dark Lord,” said Snape. “If he chooses not to share it with you —” “He shares everything with me!” said Bellatrix, firing up at once. “He calls me his most loyal, his most faithful —” “Does he?” said Snape, his voice delicately inflected to suggest his disbelief. “Does he still, after the fiasco at the Ministry?” “That was not my fault!” said Bellatrix, flushing. “The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious — if Lucius hadn’t —”

in OotP:

“I am here on Dumbledore’s orders,” said Snape, whose voice, by contrast, was becoming more and more quietly waspish, “but by all means stay, Black, I know you like to feel … involved.” “What’s that supposed to mean?” said Sirius, letting his chair fall back onto all four legs with a loud bang. “Merely that I am sure you must feel — ah — frustrated by the fact that you can do nothing useful,” Snape laid a delicate stress on the word, “for the Order.” It was Sirius’s turn to flush. Snape’s lip curled in triumph as he turned to Harry.

[cannibalgh0st-par0xysms]

Snape stans 👁_👁

[severvs-snape]

omae wa mou shindeiru

A Death Eater moved ahead of Snape and raised his wand, pointing it directly at Lupin’s back —

“Sectumsempra!” shouted Snape.

But the spell, intended for the Death Eater’s wand hand, missed and hit George instead —

- DH

_____________________________________________________________

this scene is typically discussed in the context of snape not really meaning to curse off george's ear, but a framing i see less emphasized is that this is snape's 'lately, only those whom i could not save' in action; snape was willing to maim fellow DEs to protect others. so...

lupin: *is about to be attacked*

snape:

[ragecndybars]

like. like whoever you’re gonna like and stan whoever you’re gonna stan, but you really cannot be mad at people for hating a character who canonically said slurs, joined a radical hate group that caused hundreds of deaths, emotionally abused his students for years, and was “redeemed” by virtue of having a sad childhood and an unrequited crush on a girl he once called a slur lmaooo

[severvs-snape]

…his ‘redemption’ wasn’t having a history of abuse or loving lily it was trying to atone for his past misdeeds by opposing pureblood supremacy, voldemort, & saving lives

[ragecndybars]

i could perhaps respect that if he actually made any attempt to be a good person but he instead just did the bare minimum (which, for the record: opposing genocide is, in fact, the bare minimum) and continued to be emotionally abusive to all the kids he could get his hands on in the meantime.

if you like to view his story as one of redemption that’s up to you but in the actual books, he is essentially nothing but an asshole the whole time, save for brief moments where he, again, does the bare minimum (i am especially disgusted with the narrative that he saved harry’s life because he considered that to be repaying his debt to james, instead of… yknow…… saving his students life because he’s a fucking adult and if the opportunity to save one of his students’ lives appears he should take that opportunity??? like, dumbledore doesn’t say “well, snape saved you because he’s actually a decent person” he’s like “snape hated feeling indebted to your dad i guess lmao”). and you can’t act like it’s invalid for people to hate his guts when he spent 99% of the books being an abusive creep

[severvs-snape]

people can feel & respond to him however they want to- my response was about what canon constitutes as his redemption

like, dumbledore doesn’t say “well, snape saved you because he’s actually a decent person” he’s like “snape hated feeling indebted to your dad i guess lmao”

ye, dumbledore says. those are dumbledore’s thoughts & words, not snape’s. canon eventually shows that dumbledore can’t & doesn’t predict snape’s behaviour, or feelings. (‘after all this time?’)

“Don’t be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?” “Lately, only those whom I could not save,” said Snape.

(this is more of a meta response to others things i’ve read, than to you)

by this standard, everyone on the order is doing the ~bare minimum. he’s actively doing the work of saving others, & risking his life (where he ultimately dies undercover). he’s not just not doing things. his actions are affirmative- not by negation

[ragecndybars]

like. like whoever you’re gonna like and stan whoever you’re gonna stan, but you really cannot be mad at people for hating a character who canonically said slurs, joined a radical hate group that caused hundreds of deaths, emotionally abused his students for years, and was “redeemed” by virtue of having a sad childhood and an unrequited crush on a girl he once called a slur lmaooo

[severvs-snape]

...his ‘redemption’ wasn’t having a history of abuse or loving lily it was trying to atone for his past misdeeds by opposing pureblood supremacy, voldemort, & saving lives

[fugamalefica]

Did Voldemort really kill Snape because of the Elder Wand alone?

Voldemort knew that Grindelwald was once the master of the Elder Wand and he also knew that Dumbledore won its allegiance without killing Grindelwald. He must have known that killing the previous owner wasn't necessary, then. Though given his mental health during the second war, it's also possible that he never made the connection. If this was the case, then he was even more disturbed mentally than I thought he was.

[ottogatto]

Oh.

Oooohhh.

That and he was also stupid enough not to kill Snape with an Avada.

Convenient he used Nagini to kill him, so Snape could have the time to deliver his memories! A method of killing which was painful, and why would he want a painful death when he still thought Snape as his greatest servant? Just because he didn’t want to be the one holding the wand that killed Snape directly — even though it was considered an honour to die by your master

If Voldemort hadn’t had to kill Snape, retaining his mentality a little more, that could explain some of Cursed Child’s messed up plot (even though I can’t decide whether to take it as canon or not)

That does deserve a fanfic on its own

[fugamalefica]

He wasn't stupid, and he used Nagini to kill Snape because he didn't think the Elder Wand would kill its true master, not out of any sort of 'concern' for him.

[ottogatto]

Ah yes

But he did try to kill Harry with the same Elder Wand, even though Harry said that it belonged to him. That and Voldemort told him he would merely try to kill Draco to fain the wand’s loyalty, before knowing it was Harry

But I guess he had lost two more Horcruxes so...

That does go back to your question. Why not simply disarm Snape?

I do think he also believed disarming Snape wasn’t enough (especially if Snape agreed to be disarmed by Voldemort, but in that case, Voldemort would only have to disarm him by surprise...)

Argh

[fugamalefica]

It was obvious that he wasn't thinking clearly for his judgement was clouded by disbelief, rage, possibly fear, and all sorts of emotions. It was an impulsive move and he wanted it to end, come what may. I don't see how him wanting to kill Draco proves anything.

I agree that he thought disarming would not be enough. He wanted no room for uncertainty, after all, and it was just Snape. He was dispensable. It wasn't as though it was Bellatrix.

[severvs-snape]

snape at the time was his right hand & much more highly ranked than bellatrix. he absolutely would have murdered her for the wand, if necessary

voldemort mythologises death as the ultimate defeat, hence

[deifiedrogue]

what’s your take on severus snape?

[not-socoherent]

deifiedrogue‌:

(satisfy my curiosity & bold your headcanons)

1. hetero | bi | gay | pan | gray | ace

2. cis m | trans mtf | trans ftm | non-binary

3. slut | sexually experienced | barely experienced | virgin | celibate

4. dominant | switch | submissive | vanilla

5. drinks heavily | drinks occasionally | social drinker only | never drinks

6. chain smoker | on-and-off smoker | smoked at one point | never touched a cigarette in his life

7. potions addicted | sometimes self-medicates | refuses to take anything

8. short | slightly below average | average height | slightly above average | tall

9. emaciated | underweight | healthy skinny | lean muscular | dad bod | thicc

10. always robed | muggle clothes when strictly necessary | muggle clothes when in muggle society | muggle clothes at every opportunity

11. very neat & organized | a little cluttered | total slob

12. early to bed & early to rise | habitual night owl | incurable insomniac

13. heavy sleeper | light sleeper | wakes up 20 times a night

14. back sleeper | stomach sleeper | side sleeper | always switching

15. clean but naturally oily | neglects regular self-hygiene | lets himself go completely

[severousse]

I have seen people comparing Snape to Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights and i just don’t understand.

Heathcliff was more human and morally grey than Snape… i mean he was loved by Catherine. Deeply loved for who he was…

[theheightsthatwuthered]

All righty, I have dedicated a lot of my life to Wuthering Heights and Harry Potter just sort of owns me so I hope you don’t mind me going into this with all my thoughts? Firstly, there’s a lot of talk about people thinking Snape was inspired by Heathcliff and I am a huge fan of this theory. 

“Joyce Millman suggests in her essay “To Sir with Love” in the book Mapping the World of Harry Potter, that Snape is derived from a tradition of Byronic heroes such as Wuthering Heights’ Heathcliff” - Severus Snape Wiki page.

And the way I see it there is a lot of proof of this idea. They are very similar in terms of their story and background. I’m gonna break it down into the points I have regarding their similarities and then discuss their loveability and how that affects things.

So!

In their childhood bother were abused and saw their love as the shining light in the midst of it.

Snape is bullied at school, specifically by the Marauders, and most importantly by James Potter. Heathcliff is abused in the home he is brought into; by his adopted brother for the most part but also at times by the visiting Edgar.

For Snape, Lily was his safe person and place. He adored her but he didn’t treat her well. He called her a mudblood being the main example of this. For Heathcliff, his safe person and place was Cathy. Cathy and Heathcliff’s feelings were mutual which is probably the biggest difference in the two of them.

Both had their love pick someone they hated

Lily went for the boy who bullied Snape, because James grew into a better person in the end and Snape took a path Lily didn’t agree with - Also Lily never had those feelings for him.

Cathy went for Edgar Linton who looked down his nose at Heathcliff and joined in with Hindley’s abuse and tauniting. Cathy believed it would be degrading to marry Heathcliff because of the social standings of the pair of them.

Both used their childhood and love related issues to become abusive

When an adult and working at the school, Snape is not only petty and childish but also outrightly cruel and abusive. This is most obvious towards Harry and Neville. A 13 year old boy who’s aware of the effects of unforgiveable curses and has lost parents the way he did should not have his worst fear be his teacher.  Snape even when claiming to be helping Harry, is cruel and impatient and not all that helpful. However, he goes beyond just Harry and Neville (who he blames for Lily’s death), basically abusive to anyone who isn’t a Slytherin but especially the Gryfindors. The whole house becomes victim to his hatred of James Potter

Heathcliff, when he returned after three years, he marries Isabella with the intension of being abusive and cruel to her, he gets the house off of Hindley, potentially is also responsible for Hindley’s death, and treats all three of the next generation of kids in a really disgusting, manipulative and abusive way. Oh and he killed a puppy - Emily Bronte liked dogs more than people!

Both as specifically abused to their love’s kid

For me this is the biggest point. Heathcliff’s treatment of Cathy2 and Snape’s treatment of Harry is practically the same thing. They can’t get to the person they hate - Edgar and James respectively - so they take the child who is the image of them. Harry looks like James, and Cathy2 has Edgar’s blond hair.

So yeah, I definitely think the pair of them can be compared because they follow a very very similar character arc in the ways mentioned above.

You said that Cathy loved Heathcliff for who he was, and there is no denying that. But Cathy also believed herself to be a part of Heathcliff which in itself suggests Cathy to be a very similar sort of character. Cathy had just as much capability for being abusive in her as Heathcliff does. We see it when she pinches Nelly, lies about it and slaps Edgar. We also see it from the way that Edgar is walking on eggshells in his own home in order to try and keep Cathy happy. Cathy, although not as bad as Heathcliff’s actions in the books, is not a good person.

Another point. I do not believe that being loved by someone - especially someone who is themselves abusive - in any way goes to changes the fact of Heathcliff’s character. I can’t see him as morally grey because literally every character in the book (this includes Cathy, and Heathcliff himself) talk about how terrible he is.

TL;DR I need a life.

[severousse]

“Cathy and Heathcliff’s feelings were mutual which is probably the biggest difference in the two of them.”

But this difference is essential and shows how Heathcliff was capable of being loved and Snape wasn’t. That’s why he’s better than him. There were things to love in him. Someone was drawn to him.

No one ever loved Snape for who he was which is a proof that yes he was way worse than heathcliff or even the most popular villains (Cersei, Petunia Dursley, The Joker) who have been capable of being loved. If no one ever cared about Snape when he was an adult it means that there were nothing to love in his personality. Lily loved platonically the little boy she met in cockworth, she had a wake up call and realized how terrible he was, so no, Lily didn’t love Snape. She loved the idea of him. She only loved the “good” part and even if it’s something i can’t blame her for because her friendship with Snape was toxic and made her uncomfortable, i wouldn’t compare her friendship with him to Catherine’s undying love for Heathcliff.

Heathcliff was an asshole but at least we have a proof that there were things to love in him and that he was still capable of affection.

Snape on the other hand was awful to the point of not wanting to give affection to anyone who was alive. He only cared about a woman who despised or ignored him at best… how fucked up is that ??? Even before Lily died, when he was a death eater and not a spy yet he was alone and unloved because of his awful personality… he was not only incapable of giving love to anyone but he was also incapable of receiving it as an adult. His personality has always been the problem, not his position as a spy.

So, in short, my point still stands, if Heathcliff and Snape were both abusive, at least Heathcliff had qualities that attracted Catherine. Whether Catherine was a good person or not is irrelevant because she still cared about him.

Who loved Snape’s terrible personality in the everyday life ? No one.

Who saw themselves in Snape ? No one.

Snape was impossible to love, even by bad people. Heathcliff wasn’t that’s why he’s slightly better than him.

If JKR wanted to make Snape a character similar to Heathcliff she should have given him a love interest who deeply loved him for his cruel personality to begin with. Anyway we are talking about the same woman who failed to write Snape as a morally grey character so…

[severvs-snape]

ok. this is silly, lol. you post about this often; i think it’s an articulation of frustration with snape’s character & what you think the narrative is saying implicitly, or trying to reconcile fan responses to him

being loved & giving love, romantically, isn’t a moral quality. it doesn’t make a character a better person to be loved or love others, if they still do evil things

being ‘impossible to love’ is...in execution, incoherent. especially for snape, who has so many likable + attractive, impressive qualities

by the standards of ‘giving love’ of those other villains, snape is also capable of giving love, & he exceeds those standards in most places

Who saw themselves in Snape ? No one.

harry, explicitly, does.

you’re writing about nebulous ‘things to love’ that they posses that snape doesn’t, without detailing what they, specifically, were

they were loved because they were in an environment in, & receptive to, people who had a disposition to love them. they were also hated by many people around them

being loved isn’t a litmus test for grey morality, or humanity 

[whitesunlars]

i just saw a post comparing how james treated sn*pe to how dudley treated harry and i want to die

why are sn*pe stans like this

[severvs-snape]

that’s an extremely valid comparison lmao and exactly the type that harry/the text makes

What was making Harry feel so horrified and unhappy was not being shouted at or having jars thrown at him — it was that he knew how it felt to be humiliated in the middle of a circle of onlookers, knew exactly how Snape had felt as his father had taunted him, and that judging from what he had just seen, his father had been every bit as arrogant as Snape had always told him.