link deficiency

Sapphire | Feminist | Not here to argue, so if you are then that’s kinda on you.

[a-lesbian-feminist]

It seems like i'm in the minority of radfems when I say this, but I truly don't see why asexuality isn't a valid sexual orientation.

Sexual orientation is based on which sex you are, and which sex/es you are attracted to. Numerically, that gives you the following options:

Attraction to males only

Attraction to females only

Attraction to both males and females

Attraction to neither males nor females

These are just the combinatorics. We have words for homosexuality, and bisexuality, and heterosexuality, and we utilise those words, so it doesn't make sense not to utilise the word asexuality for people who are not sexually attracted to males or females.

I've seen the argument that it's not a "real" sexuality because it's often caused by trauma, and it is true that trauma can result in lack of attraction, but even in that case I don't see why we wouldn't use the word asexual for that. Regardless of the reason, they're still not attracted to males and females, so they're not bisexual, homosexual, or heterosexual. So logically it just makes sense to attribute a word to them.

[slashdotorg]

just gonna throw in my 2 cents as an “aspec” woman

I kinda think that, ultimately, we should avoid considering it a ‘sexuality’ because it can be caused by other things. trauma, health issues(?), autism, etc. If we call it a sexuality, we normalize it. if we normalize it, people won’t both to consider there could be anything else behind it, and I think that’d be bad in the long run.

[kkoffin]

someone else said it first but i’m forever revolted by the fact that gender clinics and other parts of our medical system define a “functional” vagina as any hole between the legs that a penis can be put in.

[chaoticfloralz]

I mean what else would you add? Being able to give birth? Like periods? Having it at birth? Plenty of biological women don't have periods or are sterile. What is it if not the hole between our legs?

[kkoffin]

can’t argue with stupid

@gendiebrainrotreceipts

[kkoffin]

same mf saying “adult human female reduces women to their genitals!! do you think women are nothing but a hole for men to fuck!?” but ofc “a vagina is just a hole to fuck” is fine and dandy

[eroscestlavie]

whenever I go to the restroom and can’t piss immediately I get so mad because all I can think about is that weird sexist John Updike passage where he’s like “the pee got lost inside her mysterious Woman Body”

[eroscestlavie]

Me drunk as fuck & easily physically distracted knowing logically I have to piss sitting on a bar toilet mad as hell like IF I DON’T PISS RIGHT NOW JOHN UPDIKE WILL HAVE BEEN RIGHT

[slashdotorg]

I’m at a point where think TIFs kind of forfeit certain rights when they decide to medically transition, and I think that should be like… I think the evaluation should really stress just what you’re giving up.

[uncertainwaters]

oh yeah? which rights are you going to strip away from them? which of their already limited rights have females on testosterone forfeited in your eyes, and for what reason? what is your plan for detrans women? which aspects of medical transition strip away which rights? what is your justification for this- tell me exactly how it is feminist to strip rights from medically virilized females, how does this advance female liberation? show me the maths and answer quickly.

[acidbathbunnies-moved]

i think you’re misreading what OP said

[uncertainwaters]

then i'll wait with bated breath to hear which rights are supposedly forfeit and how this is justified. truly, on the edge of my seat.

[slashdotorg]

the ‘rights’ in question are social, not legal. it’s not “justified” I fear it’s more just how things work.

to belong in women’s bathrooms and such with no questions asked. this is mostly a problem for the TIFs who grow big beards, and that’s always the point of discussion the TRAs love to bring up — “if we enforce bathroom rules based on sex, then bearded ‘trans men’ are going to freak out the women, look at this viral clip of just that happening / plus the bearded trans men means that big ‘cis’ men with beards can just say they’re trans men!!!” — so there’s a very real chance that they’ll face pushback when using the bathroom they’re supposed to, or even be asked to prove it/for an I.D, and I think that’s understandable on the part of the women who would be asking it of them in a day and age where it’s a problem.

I also think it’s silly if TIFs wanna to complain about their place being questioned by other women, because like… I once saw a tiktok made by a butch woman (lesbian? i don’t remember) with short hair and small boobs, and it was a re-enactment/joke type thing about women being initially startled when they see her because she looks androgynous, and her essentially pulling her shirt tight so her boobs are more visible, and I just think it’s such a stark difference to the videos of the “bathroom Karen’s” and whatnot. the other woman wasn’t being blamed for being scared, even though this woman was just butch. it was understood where the fear came from and why it was there.

(granted, TIFs in those videos react that way because they want to make a scene and a whole ordeal of “look I’m being barred from the bathroom I’m forced to use because I look like a man”)

they also forfeit being seen as someone (inherently more) trustworthy and safe by women/little girls who can’t clock. i think there are absolutely social consequences like that. it doesn’t make them right, it just makes them.

I just feel like maybe they should get a thorough warning regarding the social negatives.

[uncertainwaters]

i am "just butch". bathroom harassment of gender non conforming women is not a joke, and having seen one silly tiktok about it by a woman who is affected by it trying to be lighthearted about it is not a license for you to reduce the concerns of virilized and masculine presenting women to silly, entitled hysterics. the line between myself and a virilized woman is much thinner than that. they are not a special disposable underclass of women we are allowed to treat like dogshit just because they dont look how youd expect a woman to look.

there is asking "are you in the right bathroom?" and then there is outright verbal, physical and even sexual harassment. i am not even medically masculinized and even i have had experiences of being shouted at, shoved, and disbelieved even when i did pull my shirt close to show my breasts and curves. i do not think you understand how frightening it is to navigate the world as an androgynous female and it is clear in the way you want to turn the struggles of virilized women into an object of mockery and then couch it in "well, they should just expect that!"

sure, it is reasonable to ask questions when you arent sure of someone. but every female person has a right to be in female spaces. that right is not forfeit, socially or legally, no matter what they look like. even female people you personally find unpleasant or intimidating to look at. i find highly gender conforming women frightening as i can never be sure how they will treat me as a result of my visible gender non conformity, but i dont go around saying women who wear makeup and short skirts forfeit the social right to not be catcalled because they chose to look that way and it's simply to be expected.

[slashdotorg]

I feel like you’re almost purposefully misunderstanding what I’m saying. you are putting so many words in my mouth. I never claimed it was a joke, or that it wasn’t serious, there just seems to be a stark difference with how women affected by it talk about it versus how TRAs talk about it. because the way TRAs talk about it IS like its the other woman’s fault for (presumably!) not accepting trans people.

you are reading that I’m saying they should forfeit these rights, I am saying that from my general knowledge regarding how people work, that is just how it works. that’s just how it ends up being. I am saying that when they transition, they should be made aware that they may end up in a situation like this. as it is, transitioning medically can be ridiculously easy some places and I think a lot of people who do it are not nearly aware enough of the reality that awaits. it’s not ‘they should just expect it’ so much as it’s ’they shouldn’t be entering a situation where they’ll consistently face this problem unprepared, they should be given the knowledge and means to prepare.’

I think it’s very much a ‘signing up for something without reading the fine print’; it seems like a great deal and then you get swindled.

but also since transitioning is a choice and they are actively trying to be mistaken for a man, it’s just like… of course it was going to be an issue. It was always going to be an issue, and we have to live in that reality. What course do we have?

I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences. It’s horrible that you’ve been through that, and there is no justification for that. I understand why this issue hits maybe a little too close to home for you, and I’m going to assume that’s part of why you seem to spin my words so negatively.

just to clear things up:

I don’t find any women “unpleasant” to look at. I just think maybe having the beard I’d imagine a stereotypical brony would have isn’t the best route when you’re in a state where it’s legally obligated to use the women’s facilities. that’s not going to go over well, and for what? to more closely resemble a guy whining on 4chan because women don’t wanna have sex with him? that’s like growing out a moustache just to style it into a classic perv ‘stache. maybe good in theory, but people are gonna give you looks when you walk by an elementary school. I generally don’t advocate for women to have to trim/shave anything, but unfortunately it’d probably be better for her safety if she did trim or shave.

these women who have beards like that, I can only assume, keep the beard because it helps them “pass” as a man. or maybe they have a very cold lower half of their face — I can only speculate, truly.

I’m not advocating for treating TIFs badly nor am I insinuating they are hysterical for having concerns? I mostly just have a problem with the concept of inherently blaming the women who do react badly to TIFs in the bathroom when the real problem is the fact we’re being made to question it at all. I think it’s making it worse for everyone, especially gender non-conforming women. I’m sure it’s always been a problem to some extent at least, but I can’t imagine the constant threat of men trying to worm their way into our spaces has made it better.

TL;DR: when women who aren’t androgynous and are more obviously female decide to medically transition to look “less” female, yes, I think they should be aware of what will happen if other women don’t perceive you as such, it’s such a different ballpark and I can only imagine it’d be quite disorienting to switch from one end to the other. and they do inherently forfeit their ‘right’ to be recognized as one of the herd — if they were fortunate enough to have it, since as you pointed out, not all women have it to begin with.

[uncertainwaters]

i understand having a problem with blaming women who are frightened. that is the same problem i have with your take on this, so in some ways we are on the same page.

your initial posts that i got so riled up about were about a video of a ftm experiencing negative reactions while using the bathroom, presented in a way that was mocking and belittling the ftm's perspective in that situation as a virilized female trying to use appropriate sex specific spaces. i have not seen this video and dont know the extent of the negativity- whether it was a polite question or verbal harassment. but the implication in your posts on the topic was that malepassing women are entitled and silly for being disoriented, frightened, or upset about being mistreated in female spaces due to their appearence. you say you aren't calling them hysterical, but just a moment ago you were calling them silly for complaining about bathroom mistreatment on the basis of having seen a tiktok where a butch woman had a politely handled (on both ends) misunderstanding with a woman who wasn't sure of her.

youve also been inconsistent through this entire conversation on whether virlized women have a right to be in female spaces or not. in one breath you reassure me that all women belong in female spaces and ftms should not be mistreated, then the next you state that it is natural and to be expected that they should be ostracized. at this point i am genuinely confused as to whether you thing virilized females should be in female spaces or not. one thing we can agree on is that more knowledge should be provided about the risks of bathroom harassment; what i disagree with is that this is an unsolvable problem that virilized and masculine women should just suck up, which is the takeaway i have from the wording of having "forfeited rights". the fact that this happens a lot does not mean it should happen, it is something we should endeavor to prevent.

what course do we have? the destigmatization of female body hair, including hirsutism. the destigmatization of gender non conformity. the dissolution of beauty standards, and decoupling femininity from female. at most, a gnc woman should only have to fear a respectful query as to whether she is in the right place if someone is uncertain. this can be achieved. this should be the goal. there are many courses to be had. just because it is "this way" does not mean it must stay "this way" or that gnc women must take it without complaint.

i'd also question why you think woman with a beard- natural or induced -needs to have any special reason whatsoever for not shaving it, as opposed to any other body hair she may have? i know of multiple detrans women who do not shave, because they view their bodies neutrally and have no particular feeling one way or the other about their facial hair. it grows from her face, it isn't necessarily some big statement or performance if she doesn't care about removing it. maybe she just doesn't care.

it is natural to feel intimidated or fearful of someone who looks scary to you, and to have misunderstandings. but that goes both ways. virilized and masculine women are not foolish, silly or entitled for being upset about being treated negatively for using female spaces, either. it is natural to be upset over being treated as if you have done something wrong when you have not done anything wrong. and it is natural to complain about it, too.

[slashdotorg]

the unfortunate thing regarding the other courses is that they are not immediate and, unfortunately, I fully believe the whole trans thing has pushed us back decades on that regard. at the moment, I’m not sure it’s a conversation we can even currently entertain outside of feminist spaces because I just don’t see us making any progress in that regard. I mean we always could, activism is full of surprises, but we went from ‘clothes are for anyone’ to ‘if you wear pants you’re not a girl’ SO fast that I’m afraid we’re just not getting that sled off the ground.

it’s less that they need a special reason and more so that if they are currently identifying as a trans man and using hormones, the goal is probably to ‘pass’ and a lot of decisions are made based off of that rather than body neutrality, because they tend to be very much not neutral about their bodies.

the video in question was of a transitioned woman seemingly having just entered the bathroom in a state where it’s mandatory for her to use the one that matches her sex. a woman across the room was telling/yelling at her to get out and that was P much the extent as far as I remember, and TIF tried to explain ‘I’m transgender’ which the woman was not receptive to and an unknown third party filmed. it very much could’ve been staged. TIF seemed more exasperated than anything else. The entire video gave a strong undertone of ‘this is what the transphobes are advocating for, men in women’s bathrooms’ and the tweet and video more framed the woman as unreasonable for being on edge.

[11thfempachi]

we're not going to achieve the world where women are allowed to look "manly" or even non-feminine without any pushback when a) non feminine women constantly pull shit like "oh why yes i AM not like other girls for hating skirts and makeup! because i am not a girl!" b) being able to tell men and women apart on the first glance is crucial to many women's safety. yes women who are visibly female and unfeminine get harrassed - for crabs in the bucket reasons - but seeing someone you genuinely believe to be a man in a presumably female only space can be terrifying, and the fact that there ARE in fact men who claim to be trans women just to access female only spaces, does not help this at all

[slashdotorg]

well put!

[slashdotorg]

I’m at a point where think TIFs kind of forfeit certain rights when they decide to medically transition, and I think that should be like… I think the evaluation should really stress just what you’re giving up.

[uncertainwaters]

oh yeah? which rights are you going to strip away from them? which of their already limited rights have females on testosterone forfeited in your eyes, and for what reason? what is your plan for detrans women? which aspects of medical transition strip away which rights? what is your justification for this- tell me exactly how it is feminist to strip rights from medically virilized females, how does this advance female liberation? show me the maths and answer quickly.

[acidbathbunnies-moved]

i think you’re misreading what OP said

[uncertainwaters]

then i'll wait with bated breath to hear which rights are supposedly forfeit and how this is justified. truly, on the edge of my seat.

[slashdotorg]

the ‘rights’ in question are social, not legal. it’s not “justified” I fear it’s more just how things work.

to belong in women’s bathrooms and such with no questions asked. this is mostly a problem for the TIFs who grow big beards, and that’s always the point of discussion the TRAs love to bring up — “if we enforce bathroom rules based on sex, then bearded ‘trans men’ are going to freak out the women, look at this viral clip of just that happening / plus the bearded trans men means that big ‘cis’ men with beards can just say they’re trans men!!!” — so there’s a very real chance that they’ll face pushback when using the bathroom they’re supposed to, or even be asked to prove it/for an I.D, and I think that’s understandable on the part of the women who would be asking it of them in a day and age where it’s a problem.

I also think it’s silly if TIFs wanna to complain about their place being questioned by other women, because like… I once saw a tiktok made by a butch woman (lesbian? i don’t remember) with short hair and small boobs, and it was a re-enactment/joke type thing about women being initially startled when they see her because she looks androgynous, and her essentially pulling her shirt tight so her boobs are more visible, and I just think it’s such a stark difference to the videos of the “bathroom Karen’s” and whatnot. the other woman wasn’t being blamed for being scared, even though this woman was just butch. it was understood where the fear came from and why it was there.

(granted, TIFs in those videos react that way because they want to make a scene and a whole ordeal of “look I’m being barred from the bathroom I’m forced to use because I look like a man”)

they also forfeit being seen as someone (inherently more) trustworthy and safe by women/little girls who can’t clock. i think there are absolutely social consequences like that. it doesn’t make them right, it just makes them.

I just feel like maybe they should get a thorough warning regarding the social negatives.

[uncertainwaters]

i am "just butch". bathroom harassment of gender non conforming women is not a joke, and having seen one silly tiktok about it by a woman who is affected by it trying to be lighthearted about it is not a license for you to reduce the concerns of virilized and masculine presenting women to silly, entitled hysterics. the line between myself and a virilized woman is much thinner than that. they are not a special disposable underclass of women we are allowed to treat like dogshit just because they dont look how youd expect a woman to look.

there is asking "are you in the right bathroom?" and then there is outright verbal, physical and even sexual harassment. i am not even medically masculinized and even i have had experiences of being shouted at, shoved, and disbelieved even when i did pull my shirt close to show my breasts and curves. i do not think you understand how frightening it is to navigate the world as an androgynous female and it is clear in the way you want to turn the struggles of virilized women into an object of mockery and then couch it in "well, they should just expect that!"

sure, it is reasonable to ask questions when you arent sure of someone. but every female person has a right to be in female spaces. that right is not forfeit, socially or legally, no matter what they look like. even female people you personally find unpleasant or intimidating to look at. i find highly gender conforming women frightening as i can never be sure how they will treat me as a result of my visible gender non conformity, but i dont go around saying women who wear makeup and short skirts forfeit the social right to not be catcalled because they chose to look that way and it's simply to be expected.

[slashdotorg]

I feel like you’re almost purposefully misunderstanding what I’m saying. you are putting so many words in my mouth. I never claimed it was a joke, or that it wasn’t serious, there just seems to be a stark difference with how women affected by it talk about it versus how TRAs talk about it. because the way TRAs talk about it IS like its the other woman’s fault for (presumably!) not accepting trans people.

you are reading that I’m saying they should forfeit these rights, I am saying that from my general knowledge regarding how people work, that is just how it works. that’s just how it ends up being. I am saying that when they transition, they should be made aware that they may end up in a situation like this. as it is, transitioning medically can be ridiculously easy some places and I think a lot of people who do it are not nearly aware enough of the reality that awaits. it’s not ‘they should just expect it’ so much as it’s ’they shouldn’t be entering a situation where they’ll consistently face this problem unprepared, they should be given the knowledge and means to prepare.’

I think it’s very much a ‘signing up for something without reading the fine print’; it seems like a great deal and then you get swindled.

but also since transitioning is a choice and they are actively trying to be mistaken for a man, it’s just like… of course it was going to be an issue. It was always going to be an issue, and we have to live in that reality. What course do we have?

I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences. It’s horrible that you’ve been through that, and there is no justification for that. I understand why this issue hits maybe a little too close to home for you, and I’m going to assume that’s part of why you seem to spin my words so negatively.

just to clear things up:

I don’t find any women “unpleasant” to look at. I just think maybe having the beard I’d imagine a stereotypical brony would have isn’t the best route when you’re in a state where it’s legally obligated to use the women’s facilities. that’s not going to go over well, and for what? to more closely resemble a guy whining on 4chan because women don’t wanna have sex with him? that’s like growing out a moustache just to style it into a classic perv ‘stache. maybe good in theory, but people are gonna give you looks when you walk by an elementary school. I generally don’t advocate for women to have to trim/shave anything, but unfortunately it’d probably be better for her safety if she did trim or shave.

these women who have beards like that, I can only assume, keep the beard because it helps them “pass” as a man. or maybe they have a very cold lower half of their face — I can only speculate, truly.

I’m not advocating for treating TIFs badly nor am I insinuating they are hysterical for having concerns? I mostly just have a problem with the concept of inherently blaming the women who do react badly to TIFs in the bathroom when the real problem is the fact we’re being made to question it at all. I think it’s making it worse for everyone, especially gender non-conforming women. I’m sure it’s always been a problem to some extent at least, but I can’t imagine the constant threat of men trying to worm their way into our spaces has made it better.

TL;DR: when women who aren’t androgynous and are more obviously female decide to medically transition to look “less” female, yes, I think they should be aware of what will happen if other women don’t perceive you as such, it’s such a different ballpark and I can only imagine it’d be quite disorienting to switch from one end to the other. and they do inherently forfeit their ‘right’ to be recognized as one of the herd — if they were fortunate enough to have it, since as you pointed out, not all women have it to begin with.

[uncertainwaters]

i understand having a problem with blaming women who are frightened. that is the same problem i have with your take on this, so in some ways we are on the same page.

your initial posts that i got so riled up about were about a video of a ftm experiencing negative reactions while using the bathroom, presented in a way that was mocking and belittling the ftm's perspective in that situation as a virilized female trying to use appropriate sex specific spaces. i have not seen this video and dont know the extent of the negativity- whether it was a polite question or verbal harassment. but the implication in your posts on the topic was that malepassing women are entitled and silly for being disoriented, frightened, or upset about being mistreated in female spaces due to their appearence. you say you aren't calling them hysterical, but just a moment ago you were calling them silly for complaining about bathroom mistreatment on the basis of having seen a tiktok where a butch woman had a politely handled (on both ends) misunderstanding with a woman who wasn't sure of her.

youve also been inconsistent through this entire conversation on whether virlized women have a right to be in female spaces or not. in one breath you reassure me that all women belong in female spaces and ftms should not be mistreated, then the next you state that it is natural and to be expected that they should be ostracized. at this point i am genuinely confused as to whether you thing virilized females should be in female spaces or not. one thing we can agree on is that more knowledge should be provided about the risks of bathroom harassment; what i disagree with is that this is an unsolvable problem that virilized and masculine women should just suck up, which is the takeaway i have from the wording of having "forfeited rights". the fact that this happens a lot does not mean it should happen, it is something we should endeavor to prevent.

what course do we have? the destigmatization of female body hair, including hirsutism. the destigmatization of gender non conformity. the dissolution of beauty standards, and decoupling femininity from female. at most, a gnc woman should only have to fear a respectful query as to whether she is in the right place if someone is uncertain. this can be achieved. this should be the goal. there are many courses to be had. just because it is "this way" does not mean it must stay "this way" or that gnc women must take it without complaint.

i'd also question why you think woman with a beard- natural or induced -needs to have any special reason whatsoever for not shaving it, as opposed to any other body hair she may have? i know of multiple detrans women who do not shave, because they view their bodies neutrally and have no particular feeling one way or the other about their facial hair. it grows from her face, it isn't necessarily some big statement or performance if she doesn't care about removing it. maybe she just doesn't care.

it is natural to feel intimidated or fearful of someone who looks scary to you, and to have misunderstandings. but that goes both ways. virilized and masculine women are not foolish, silly or entitled for being upset about being treated negatively for using female spaces, either. it is natural to be upset over being treated as if you have done something wrong when you have not done anything wrong. and it is natural to complain about it, too.

[slashdotorg]

the unfortunate thing regarding the other courses is that they are not immediate and, unfortunately, I fully believe the whole trans thing has pushed us back decades on that regard. at the moment, I’m not sure it’s a conversation we can even currently entertain outside of feminist spaces because I just don’t see us making any progress in that regard. I mean we always could, activism is full of surprises, but we went from ‘clothes are for anyone’ to ‘if you wear pants you’re not a girl’ SO fast.

it’s less that they need a special reason and more so that if they are currently identifying as a trans man and using hormones, the goal is probably to ‘pass’ and a lot of decisions are made based off of that rather than body neutrality, because they tend to be very much not neutral about their bodies.

the video in question was of a transitioned woman seemingly having just entered the bathroom in a state where it’s mandatory for her to use the one that matches her sex. a woman across the room was telling/yelling at her to get out and that was P much the extent as far as I remember, and TIF tried to explain ‘I’m transgender’ which the woman was not receptive to and an unknown third party filmed. it very much could’ve been staged. TIF seemed more exasperated than anything else. The entire video gave a strong undertone of ‘this is what the transphobes are advocating for, men in women’s bathrooms’ and the tweet and video more framed the woman as unreasonable for being on edge.

[uncertainwaters]

of course i understand why that woman would have been frightened. can you understand how i would take serious issue with belittling the perspective of the ftm in that situation, though, and treating it like a foregone conclusion that it is unreasonable to complain about? you have a person who is obeying the law, using the facilities they are mandated to use, and being shouted at and ignored upon trying to explain the situation in a non aggressive manner. from the way you had framed this before you went into detail, i was assuming the ftm had been the one to get aggressive, rather than just being exasperated.

[slashdotorg]

yes, I can absolutely understand why you would take issue. my initial post regarding that was not intended to belittle the ftm, more just the concept. the entire video was being used to paint women as unreasonable for both not wanting TIMs in our bathrooms but for suspecting TIFs when they look masculine.

the problem is, provided the video was real, it probably shouldn’t have been posted at all. I feel there’s a difference between talking about bad experiences and recording them (not that the ftm was recording, of course) and the latter mostly just seemed to serve as “proof” for an agenda and Women Be Crazy. because by all technicality, that woman could’ve been completely okay with trans people and we’d have no way of knowing.

[slashdotorg]

I’m at a point where think TIFs kind of forfeit certain rights when they decide to medically transition, and I think that should be like… I think the evaluation should really stress just what you’re giving up.

[uncertainwaters]

oh yeah? which rights are you going to strip away from them? which of their already limited rights have females on testosterone forfeited in your eyes, and for what reason? what is your plan for detrans women? which aspects of medical transition strip away which rights? what is your justification for this- tell me exactly how it is feminist to strip rights from medically virilized females, how does this advance female liberation? show me the maths and answer quickly.

[acidbathbunnies-moved]

i think you’re misreading what OP said

[uncertainwaters]

then i'll wait with bated breath to hear which rights are supposedly forfeit and how this is justified. truly, on the edge of my seat.

[slashdotorg]

the ‘rights’ in question are social, not legal. it’s not “justified” I fear it’s more just how things work.

to belong in women’s bathrooms and such with no questions asked. this is mostly a problem for the TIFs who grow big beards, and that’s always the point of discussion the TRAs love to bring up — “if we enforce bathroom rules based on sex, then bearded ‘trans men’ are going to freak out the women, look at this viral clip of just that happening / plus the bearded trans men means that big ‘cis’ men with beards can just say they’re trans men!!!” — so there’s a very real chance that they’ll face pushback when using the bathroom they’re supposed to, or even be asked to prove it/for an I.D, and I think that’s understandable on the part of the women who would be asking it of them in a day and age where it’s a problem.

I also think it’s silly if TIFs wanna to complain about their place being questioned by other women, because like… I once saw a tiktok made by a butch woman (lesbian? i don’t remember) with short hair and small boobs, and it was a re-enactment/joke type thing about women being initially startled when they see her because she looks androgynous, and her essentially pulling her shirt tight so her boobs are more visible, and I just think it’s such a stark difference to the videos of the “bathroom Karen’s” and whatnot. the other woman wasn’t being blamed for being scared, even though this woman was just butch. it was understood where the fear came from and why it was there.

(granted, TIFs in those videos react that way because they want to make a scene and a whole ordeal of “look I’m being barred from the bathroom I’m forced to use because I look like a man”)

they also forfeit being seen as someone (inherently more) trustworthy and safe by women/little girls who can’t clock. i think there are absolutely social consequences like that. it doesn’t make them right, it just makes them.

I just feel like maybe they should get a thorough warning regarding the social negatives.

[uncertainwaters]

i am "just butch". bathroom harassment of gender non conforming women is not a joke, and having seen one silly tiktok about it by a woman who is affected by it trying to be lighthearted about it is not a license for you to reduce the concerns of virilized and masculine presenting women to silly, entitled hysterics. the line between myself and a virilized woman is much thinner than that. they are not a special disposable underclass of women we are allowed to treat like dogshit just because they dont look how youd expect a woman to look.

there is asking "are you in the right bathroom?" and then there is outright verbal, physical and even sexual harassment. i am not even medically masculinized and even i have had experiences of being shouted at, shoved, and disbelieved even when i did pull my shirt close to show my breasts and curves. i do not think you understand how frightening it is to navigate the world as an androgynous female and it is clear in the way you want to turn the struggles of virilized women into an object of mockery and then couch it in "well, they should just expect that!"

sure, it is reasonable to ask questions when you arent sure of someone. but every female person has a right to be in female spaces. that right is not forfeit, socially or legally, no matter what they look like. even female people you personally find unpleasant or intimidating to look at. i find highly gender conforming women frightening as i can never be sure how they will treat me as a result of my visible gender non conformity, but i dont go around saying women who wear makeup and short skirts forfeit the social right to not be catcalled because they chose to look that way and it's simply to be expected.

[slashdotorg]

I feel like you’re almost purposefully misunderstanding what I’m saying. you are putting so many words in my mouth. I never claimed it was a joke, or that it wasn’t serious, there just seems to be a stark difference with how women affected by it talk about it versus how TRAs talk about it. because the way TRAs talk about it IS like its the other woman’s fault for (presumably!) not accepting trans people.

you are reading that I’m saying they should forfeit these rights, I am saying that from my general knowledge regarding how people work, that is just how it works. that’s just how it ends up being. I am saying that when they transition, they should be made aware that they may end up in a situation like this. as it is, transitioning medically can be ridiculously easy some places and I think a lot of people who do it are not nearly aware enough of the reality that awaits. it’s not ‘they should just expect it’ so much as it’s ’they shouldn’t be entering a situation where they’ll consistently face this problem unprepared, they should be given the knowledge and means to prepare.’

I think it’s very much a ‘signing up for something without reading the fine print’; it seems like a great deal and then you get swindled.

but also since transitioning is a choice and they are actively trying to be mistaken for a man, it’s just like… of course it was going to be an issue. It was always going to be an issue, and we have to live in that reality. What course do we have?

I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences. It’s horrible that you’ve been through that, and there is no justification for that. I understand why this issue hits maybe a little too close to home for you, and I’m going to assume that’s part of why you seem to spin my words so negatively.

just to clear things up:

I don’t find any women “unpleasant” to look at. I just think maybe having the beard I’d imagine a stereotypical brony would have isn’t the best route when you’re in a state where it’s legally obligated to use the women’s facilities. that’s not going to go over well, and for what? to more closely resemble a guy whining on 4chan because women don’t wanna have sex with him? that’s like growing out a moustache just to style it into a classic perv ‘stache. maybe good in theory, but people are gonna give you looks when you walk by an elementary school. I generally don’t advocate for women to have to trim/shave anything, but unfortunately it’d probably be better for her safety if she did trim or shave.

these women who have beards like that, I can only assume, keep the beard because it helps them “pass” as a man. or maybe they have a very cold lower half of their face — I can only speculate, truly.

I’m not advocating for treating TIFs badly nor am I insinuating they are hysterical for having concerns? I mostly just have a problem with the concept of inherently blaming the women who do react badly to TIFs in the bathroom when the real problem is the fact we’re being made to question it at all. I think it’s making it worse for everyone, especially gender non-conforming women. I’m sure it’s always been a problem to some extent at least, but I can’t imagine the constant threat of men trying to worm their way into our spaces has made it better.

TL;DR: when women who aren’t androgynous and are more obviously female decide to medically transition to look “less” female, yes, I think they should be aware of what will happen if other women don’t perceive you as such, it’s such a different ballpark and I can only imagine it’d be quite disorienting to switch from one end to the other. and they do inherently forfeit their ‘right’ to be recognized as one of the herd — if they were fortunate enough to have it, since as you pointed out, not all women have it to begin with.

[uncertainwaters]

i understand having a problem with blaming women who are frightened. that is the same problem i have with your take on this, so in some ways we are on the same page.

your initial posts that i got so riled up about were about a video of a ftm experiencing negative reactions while using the bathroom, presented in a way that was mocking and belittling the ftm's perspective in that situation as a virilized female trying to use appropriate sex specific spaces. i have not seen this video and dont know the extent of the negativity- whether it was a polite question or verbal harassment. but the implication in your posts on the topic was that malepassing women are entitled and silly for being disoriented, frightened, or upset about being mistreated in female spaces due to their appearence. you say you aren't calling them hysterical, but just a moment ago you were calling them silly for complaining about bathroom mistreatment on the basis of having seen a tiktok where a butch woman had a politely handled (on both ends) misunderstanding with a woman who wasn't sure of her.

youve also been inconsistent through this entire conversation on whether virlized women have a right to be in female spaces or not. in one breath you reassure me that all women belong in female spaces and ftms should not be mistreated, then the next you state that it is natural and to be expected that they should be ostracized. at this point i am genuinely confused as to whether you thing virilized females should be in female spaces or not. one thing we can agree on is that more knowledge should be provided about the risks of bathroom harassment; what i disagree with is that this is an unsolvable problem that virilized and masculine women should just suck up, which is the takeaway i have from the wording of having "forfeited rights". the fact that this happens a lot does not mean it should happen, it is something we should endeavor to prevent.

what course do we have? the destigmatization of female body hair, including hirsutism. the destigmatization of gender non conformity. the dissolution of beauty standards, and decoupling femininity from female. at most, a gnc woman should only have to fear a respectful query as to whether she is in the right place if someone is uncertain. this can be achieved. this should be the goal. there are many courses to be had. just because it is "this way" does not mean it must stay "this way" or that gnc women must take it without complaint.

i'd also question why you think woman with a beard- natural or induced -needs to have any special reason whatsoever for not shaving it, as opposed to any other body hair she may have? i know of multiple detrans women who do not shave, because they view their bodies neutrally and have no particular feeling one way or the other about their facial hair. it grows from her face, it isn't necessarily some big statement or performance if she doesn't care about removing it. maybe she just doesn't care.

it is natural to feel intimidated or fearful of someone who looks scary to you, and to have misunderstandings. but that goes both ways. virilized and masculine women are not foolish, silly or entitled for being upset about being treated negatively for using female spaces, either. it is natural to be upset over being treated as if you have done something wrong when you have not done anything wrong. and it is natural to complain about it, too.

[slashdotorg]

the unfortunate thing regarding the other courses is that they are not immediate and, unfortunately, I fully believe the whole trans thing has pushed us back decades on that regard. at the moment, I’m not sure it’s a conversation we can even currently entertain outside of feminist spaces because I just don’t see us making any progress in that regard. I mean we always could, activism is full of surprises, but we went from ‘clothes are for anyone’ to ‘if you wear pants you’re not a girl’ SO fast that I’m afraid we’re just not getting that sled off the ground.

it’s less that they need a special reason and more so that if they are currently identifying as a trans man and using hormones, the goal is probably to ‘pass’ and a lot of decisions are made based off of that rather than body neutrality, because they tend to be very much not neutral about their bodies.

the video in question was of a transitioned woman seemingly having just entered the bathroom in a state where it’s mandatory for her to use the one that matches her sex. a woman across the room was telling/yelling at her to get out and that was P much the extent as far as I remember, and TIF tried to explain ‘I’m transgender’ which the woman was not receptive to and an unknown third party filmed. it very much could’ve been staged. TIF seemed more exasperated than anything else. The entire video gave a strong undertone of ‘this is what the transphobes are advocating for, men in women’s bathrooms’ and the tweet and video more framed the woman as unreasonable for being on edge.

[slashdotorg]

I’m at a point where think TIFs kind of forfeit certain rights when they decide to medically transition, and I think that should be like… I think the evaluation should really stress just what you’re giving up.

[theangryman]

”i believe that certain people deserve less rights”

this is how TERFism is a conservative hate movement btw

[slashdotorg]

dw it’s okay that you think that, people have been calling feminism a hate movement for years I think we’re kinda over it

[theangryman]

feminism is not a hate movement

TERFism is not feminism. TERFism alt right ideology wearing a mask and is a hate movement

you said it yourself - you think some people deserve less rights than others

[slashdotorg]

What do you think the F in TERF is for, bud?

[slashdotorg]

I’m at a point where think TIFs kind of forfeit certain rights when they decide to medically transition, and I think that should be like… I think the evaluation should really stress just what you’re giving up.

[uncertainwaters]

oh yeah? which rights are you going to strip away from them? which of their already limited rights have females on testosterone forfeited in your eyes, and for what reason? what is your plan for detrans women? which aspects of medical transition strip away which rights? what is your justification for this- tell me exactly how it is feminist to strip rights from medically virilized females, how does this advance female liberation? show me the maths and answer quickly.

[acidbathbunnies-moved]

i think you’re misreading what OP said

[uncertainwaters]

then i'll wait with bated breath to hear which rights are supposedly forfeit and how this is justified. truly, on the edge of my seat.

[slashdotorg]

the ‘rights’ in question are social, not legal. it’s not “justified” I fear it’s more just how things work.

to belong in women’s bathrooms and such with no questions asked. this is mostly a problem for the TIFs who grow big beards, and that’s always the point of discussion the TRAs love to bring up — “if we enforce bathroom rules based on sex, then bearded ‘trans men’ are going to freak out the women, look at this viral clip of just that happening / plus the bearded trans men means that big ‘cis’ men with beards can just say they’re trans men!!!” — so there’s a very real chance that they’ll face pushback when using the bathroom they’re supposed to, or even be asked to prove it/for an I.D, and I think that’s understandable on the part of the women who would be asking it of them in a day and age where it’s a problem.

I also think it’s silly if TIFs wanna to complain about their place being questioned by other women, because like… I once saw a tiktok made by a butch woman (lesbian? i don’t remember) with short hair and small boobs, and it was a re-enactment/joke type thing about women being initially startled when they see her because she looks androgynous, and her essentially pulling her shirt tight so her boobs are more visible, and I just think it’s such a stark difference to the videos of the “bathroom Karen’s” and whatnot. the other woman wasn’t being blamed for being scared, even though this woman was just butch. it was understood where the fear came from and why it was there.

(granted, TIFs in those videos react that way because they want to make a scene and a whole ordeal of “look I’m being barred from the bathroom I’m forced to use because I look like a man”)

they also forfeit being seen as someone (inherently more) trustworthy and safe by women/little girls who can’t clock. i think there are absolutely social consequences like that. it doesn’t make them right, it just makes them.

I just feel like maybe they should get a thorough warning regarding the social negatives.

[uncertainwaters]

i am "just butch". bathroom harassment of gender non conforming women is not a joke, and having seen one silly tiktok about it by a woman who is affected by it trying to be lighthearted about it is not a license for you to reduce the concerns of virilized and masculine presenting women to silly, entitled hysterics. the line between myself and a virilized woman is much thinner than that. they are not a special disposable underclass of women we are allowed to treat like dogshit just because they dont look how youd expect a woman to look.

there is asking "are you in the right bathroom?" and then there is outright verbal, physical and even sexual harassment. i am not even medically masculinized and even i have had experiences of being shouted at, shoved, and disbelieved even when i did pull my shirt close to show my breasts and curves. i do not think you understand how frightening it is to navigate the world as an androgynous female and it is clear in the way you want to turn the struggles of virilized women into an object of mockery and then couch it in "well, they should just expect that!"

sure, it is reasonable to ask questions when you arent sure of someone. but every female person has a right to be in female spaces. that right is not forfeit, socially or legally, no matter what they look like. even female people you personally find unpleasant or intimidating to look at. i find highly gender conforming women frightening as i can never be sure how they will treat me as a result of my visible gender non conformity, but i dont go around saying women who wear makeup and short skirts forfeit the social right to not be catcalled because they chose to look that way and it's simply to be expected.

[slashdotorg]

I feel like you’re almost purposefully misunderstanding what I’m saying. you are putting so many words in my mouth. I never claimed it was a joke, or that it wasn’t serious, there just seems to be a stark difference with how women affected by it talk about it versus how TRAs talk about it. because the way TRAs talk about it IS like its the other woman’s fault for (presumably!) not accepting trans people.

you are reading that I’m saying they should forfeit these rights, I am saying that from my general knowledge regarding how people work, that is just how it works. that’s just how it ends up being. I am saying that when they transition, they should be made aware that they may end up in a situation like this. as it is, transitioning medically can be ridiculously easy some places and I think a lot of people who do it are not nearly aware enough of the reality that awaits. it’s not ‘they should just expect it’ so much as it’s ’they shouldn’t be entering a situation where they’ll consistently face this problem unprepared, they should be given the knowledge and means to prepare.’

I think it’s very much a ‘signing up for something without reading the fine print’; it seems like a great deal and then you get swindled.

but also since transitioning is a choice and they are actively trying to be mistaken for a man, it’s just like… of course it was going to be an issue. It was always going to be an issue, and we have to live in that reality. What course do we have?

I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences. It’s horrible that you’ve been through that, and there is no justification for that. I understand why this issue hits maybe a little too close to home for you, and I’m going to assume that’s part of why you seem to spin my words so negatively.

just to clear things up:

I don’t find any women “unpleasant” to look at. I just think maybe having the beard I’d imagine a stereotypical brony would have isn’t the best route when you’re in a state where it’s legally obligated to use the women’s facilities. that’s not going to go over well, and for what? to more closely resemble a guy whining on 4chan because women don’t wanna have sex with him? that’s like growing out a moustache just to style it into a classic perv ‘stache. maybe good in theory, but people are gonna give you looks when you walk by an elementary school. I generally don’t advocate for women to have to trim/shave anything, but unfortunately it’d probably be better for her safety if she did trim or shave.

these women who have beards like that, I can only assume, keep the beard because it helps them “pass” as a man. or maybe they have a very cold lower half of their face — I can only speculate, truly.

I’m not advocating for treating TIFs badly nor am I insinuating they are hysterical for having concerns? I mostly just have a problem with the concept of inherently blaming the women who do react badly to TIFs in the bathroom when the real problem is the fact we’re being made to question it at all. I think it’s making it worse for everyone, especially gender non-conforming women. I’m sure it’s always been a problem to some extent at least, but I can’t imagine the constant threat of men trying to worm their way into our spaces has made it better.

TL;DR: when women who aren’t androgynous and are more obviously female decide to medically transition to look “less” female, yes, I think they should be aware of what will happen if other women don’t perceive you as such, it’s such a different ballpark and I can only imagine it’d be quite disorienting to switch from one end to the other. and they do inherently forfeit their ‘right’ to be recognized as one of the herd — if they were fortunate enough to have it, since as you pointed out, not all women have it to begin with.

[slashdotorg]

I’m at a point where think TIFs kind of forfeit certain rights when they decide to medically transition, and I think that should be like… I think the evaluation should really stress just what you’re giving up.

[theangryman]

”i believe that certain people deserve less rights”

this is how TERFism is a conservative hate movement btw

[slashdotorg]

dw it’s okay that you think that, people have been calling feminism a hate movement for years I think we’re kinda over it

[slashdotorg]

I’m at a point where think TIFs kind of forfeit certain rights when they decide to medically transition, and I think that should be like… I think the evaluation should really stress just what you’re giving up.

[uncertainwaters]

oh yeah? which rights are you going to strip away from them? which of their already limited rights have females on testosterone forfeited in your eyes, and for what reason? what is your plan for detrans women? which aspects of medical transition strip away which rights? what is your justification for this- tell me exactly how it is feminist to strip rights from medically virilized females, how does this advance female liberation? show me the maths and answer quickly.

[acidbathbunnies-moved]

i think you’re misreading what OP said

[uncertainwaters]

then i'll wait with bated breath to hear which rights are supposedly forfeit and how this is justified. truly, on the edge of my seat.

[slashdotorg]

the ‘rights’ in question are social, not legal. it’s not “justified” I fear it’s more just how things work.

to belong in women’s bathrooms and such with no questions asked. this is mostly a problem for the TIFs who grow big beards, and that’s always the point of discussion the TRAs love to bring up — “if we enforce bathroom rules based on sex, then bearded ‘trans men’ are going to freak out the women, look at this viral clip of just that happening / plus the bearded trans men means that big ‘cis’ men with beards can just say they’re trans men!!!” — so there’s a very real chance that they’ll face pushback when using the bathroom they’re supposed to, or even be asked to prove it/for an I.D, and I think that’s understandable on the part of the women who would be asking it of them in a day and age where it’s a problem.

I also think it’s silly if TIFs wanna to complain about their place being questioned by other women, because like… I once saw a tiktok made by a butch woman (lesbian? i don’t remember) with short hair and small boobs, and it was a re-enactment/joke type thing about women being initially startled when they see her because she looks androgynous, and her essentially pulling her shirt tight so her boobs are more visible, and I just think it’s such a stark difference to the videos of the “bathroom Karen’s” and whatnot. the other woman wasn’t being blamed for being scared, even though this woman was just butch. it was understood where the fear came from and why it was there.

(granted, TIFs in those videos react that way because they want to make a scene and a whole ordeal of “look I’m being barred from the bathroom I’m forced to use because I look like a man”)

they also forfeit being seen as someone (inherently more) trustworthy and safe by women/little girls who can’t clock. i think there are absolutely social consequences like that. it doesn’t make them right, it just makes them.

I just feel like maybe they should get a thorough warning regarding the social negatives.

[kkoffin]

imagine reblogging a post about the mainstream use of antisemitic, misogynistic and generally right-wing/extremist language and then someone sends an anon saying “op of that post is a radfem” and you say “omg thanks!! i deleted that post!!”

because i guess warnings against right-wing language seeping into ur vocab aren’t important after you’re told the person who bought to your attention has an opinion you don’t like

[river-grunfeld]

This is why the left is failing rn. Trans ideology is literally breaking apart our ability to resist the right because we can't even group up without everyone having to share every single view down to the most tiny detail even if we agree on more than we disagree with.

[slashdotorg]

I’m at a point where think TIFs kind of forfeit certain rights when they decide to medically transition, and I think that should be like… I think the evaluation should really stress just what you’re giving up.

[slashdotorg]

TikTok - Make Your Day

SO SO SO SO SO SOOOO many comments on this diagnosing a man they don’t know as “trans lesbian” because he decorates his apartment in the a style lesbians do …….. yeah, 20+ comments calling this man an egg for his decoration doesn’t make your cause seem weird or stereotypical at all.

[uncertainwaters]

so, let's talk about the lobotomy. if your basis for supporting surgical transition (a form of psychosurgery, invented during the same time period: both the prefrontal lobotomy and the first surgeries done on dora richter and lili elbe were performed in the 1930s) is that it is supported within the medical community it is intellectually dishonest to ignore that the lobotomy was supported to the degree of its inventor earning the nobel prize and being widely regarded as an enormous breakthrough in the treatment of schizophrenia and depression. the lobotomy was not performed by shady back alley torturers skulking around behind asylums clutching rusty ice picks. it was performed in hospital operating rooms, by smiling and respectable doctors, and there was public demand for the procedure. not everyone was being strapped down in that asylum. people were showing up at their family doctor asking to be prescribed a lobotomy, desperate for something to make them feel better.

we learned from the lobotomy that treating psychological problems with surgery is overly invasive, dangerous, and destructive as a whole. yet we do not apply this lens to gender reassignment surgeries, despite them being based upon the same principle: treating a psychological phenomenon (gender dysphoria) with surgical intervention. 14 out of the first 20 lobotomy recipients self reported that their symptoms improved after the procedure, but we know now that anecdotal accounts of "feeling better" is not an accurate measure of whether medical harm was done to the patient. both of these procedures were invented in the same historical time period and adopt the same ethics of taking a surgical approach to non surgical psychological illness. the similarities run far deeper than you think.

[noa-nightingale]

Periodical reminder that we love and appreciate Jewish people on this blog. This includes Zionist Jews and Israelis. This includes all denominations.

I don't want to be weird about this but I want to say that I see, like, I see the rising antisemitism and I am sincerely worried about you. I love and appreciate you, you are welcome here, and I hope and wish for your safety and wellbeing.

[slashdotorg]

Man: yeah I always thought I’d look kinda good in a skirt, I mean I’m part Scottish lol

TIMs, barrelling out of the ground: HAVE YOU THOUGHT OF T R A N S I T I O N I N G?

[dickfreewoman]

we went from dismantling gender stereotypes to enforcing them so hard people start taking hormones and surgeries to fit into their stereotypes.

[slashdotorg]

Man: yeah I always thought I’d look kinda good in a skirt, I mean I’m part Scottish lol

TIMs, barrelling out of the ground: HAVE YOU THOUGHT OF T R A N S I T I O N I N G?