One thing I don't get is how Lily took James word so easily against Snape's. The thing I got was that she thought he was stupidly sneaking around and James saved him from the goodness of his heart. She knows James bullies people and that he's a braggart. Why didn't she say "Sev, Potter was going on about how he saved you from something? What happened? Are you okay?" She was ready to believe the worst of him and was influenced by her house. People don't want to believe it but she had her flaws.
I’ve got to be honest, this is the thing that I find really difficult to deal with when it comes to the Potter series; I think I’ve written about it a few times before.
To be clear, this is not criticism of Lily for not continuing to be friends with Severus - it is more an investigation of ‘what was their status as friends’ during their years as friends.
I am uncertain as to how deep the friendship between Lily and Severus was. I think it’s plausible to argue that it was very strong, and perhaps waned over the years as they drifted apart whilst at Hogwarts. Equally, I think it’s also possible to argue that it was convenience, and Severus’ actions were a perfect excuse for Lily to finally wash her hands of him.
I think there are several other very plausible readings of their friendship - but the only one that I give zero credence to is the one we see in canon, where Lily reassures Severus that they are indeed best friends…because in that very scene, Lily proves that they’re not.
Of course, it is important to recognise and appreciate that by this point in canon, Severus was already behaving in a way that was causing Lily concern. I think that no matter how strong their friendship had been previously, she was bothered by the people he was apparently socialising with, and given the way Severus throws the Marauders back at her as a retort, it seems that he probably felt the same about her. It is clear that from both sides, they are being affected and led by others in their house. By Snape’s Worst Memory, Severus has been using slurs to refer to Muggleborns and in this scene itself, we see that Lily has sided with James’ version of events.
As you say in your ask, and it’s something I’ve lamented before, I do not understand Lily’s reaction to the werewolf incident. Importantly, it is very plausible that Severus didn’t explain to Lily the depth of how the Marauders were bullying him - it’s perhaps logical to think that she only knew that James et al were generally troublemakers, and she didn’t know that the extent of their behaviour towards Severus. …because Lily berates Severus for not being grateful that his bully saved him from ‘whatever’s down there’ by the Whomping Willow.
Something doesn’t quite add up. If that was my best friend, I wouldn’t have waited a few days to catch up with him to see if he was ok. I wouldn’t berate him not being grateful at being saved; I would’ve been concerned about his health and wellbeing. …if that was my best friend, I would’ve been asking him for his version of events, and not relying on information from people I know he - at best! - dislikes.
The fact that Lily does none of that suggests to me that they’re not best friends at all, despite her early platitudes. She has already pitched her wagon to Gryffindor and James by taking his version of events as gospel. In itself, that’s not a crime. It is, perhaps, unfortunate that she does so in the same conversation where she assures Severus that she’s his best friend, because her actions speak louder than words. Of course, what’s most pitiful of all is that Severus doesn’t seem to register any of this - he has so few frames of reference for friendship, love and appreciation that he doesn’t seem to question Lily’s reaction and see it for what it was.
Lily didn’t have to be Severus’ friend; when you’re friends with someone, it doesn’t mean a lifelong commitment to be their friend forever, and I think given the circumstances (the background of war, the rise of the Death Eater rhetoric, the animosity between Gryffindor and Slytherin), their friendship didn’t have a chance.
However, all that considered, I think that whilst it’s important to recognise that Severus’ behaviour wasn’t stellar and Lily was within her rights to call the friendship off, it’s equally important to recognise that Lily’s own behaviour was hardly wonderful - it’s just that Severus has no grounding to recognise it, and be able to call her on it.
Best friends? Quite possibly in the past. At that point in time? Most definitely not.
I have a few points to add if that’s alright.
Firstly, I agree with a lot of what you said here, but the main problem I have is that you seem to have a very specific view of how Lily should have responded/acted after this incident. Now if you strip away all the ‘did Lily know about Remus’ or what not, it’s made clear in the third book that Ssev doesn’t like Remus and he’s quite keen on letting other people know about his condition. So if Lily was friends with Remus or was just tired of listening to his theories about Remus, and then heard about what Sev did, even if they’re best friends, that’s going to influence how she reacts.
Another thing that could influence when she had a conversation with him about it would be how willing he is to be seen with her out in the open after he starts hanging out with Avery and Mulciber and Wilkes and Rosier and whoever else was in the prospective death eater gang. If he was keeping his head down in the common room or if he was sticking close to his friends (who don’t like Lily at all) that wouldn’t give her much opportunity to go up and talk to him.
You can have a best friend and give them shit for how they behave. You don’t just hold your best friends hand and tell them how right they were when they did something wrong. He sneaked down there with bad intentions, something that I believe she knew, because it does seem like it’s been a few days. So maybe Remus told her what happened, or maybe she saw the look on James’ face and could tell he wasn’t fooling around this time or maybe she’d gone to a professor in hopes of learning the truth of what happened, or maybe she did just listen to what was being said around the Gryffindor table, but I don’t think it means that they weren’t best friends just because she didn’t ask for his version of the events. Or, more realistically, that they weren’t trying to be best friends or deluding themselves to thinking that they were still best friends.
I love the Sev and Lily friendship and like a lot of things from this era it’s open to so much interpretation and whatnot which makes it so fun to discuss. I think they were friends up until the worst memory, that they were on thin ice for a while before that but neither one of them were thinking about calling it quits. I think that they were both each others first best friend in this magical world and that they got each other through a lot of tough stuff and it wasn’t easy, despite all of Sev’s choices, for Lily to decide to cut ties.
Mmm, the point we’re really disagreeing on is how a best friend should behave.
I don’t take any issue with the points that you’ve made about them being on thin ice, or it being hard for them to break off from each other - that’s very close to how I generally see things.
My point is that Lily’s behaviour in that scene is not demonstrative of a best friend. She could well have reason for that - as you’ve suggested, with her attitude towards Remus, and the Slytherins, and perhaps them being unable to get together etc. And of course you can challenge your best friend on their behaviour.
However, the difference is that normally, you’d find out the truth before damning your best friend. You might damn an acquaintance without getting their side of the story, and you might even damn a friend - but you don’t do it to your best friend.
Just to point out, you can’t categorically state that Severus had bad intentions when he went to the Whomping Willow; this is all a matter of perspective. The Marauders believe he went down there with bad intentions - he went down there to find out their secret, with the aim of getting them into trouble. From Severus’ perspective, are those bad intentions? Or is he trying to retaliate against four boys who continually bully him four-on-one? From Severus’ perspective, he thinks he’s found a weakness in the group, and he’s prodding at it in an effort to get something concrete he can use against the boys who bully him. And it’s important to remember, although the Marauders were doing something great for Remus, they were breaking a rack of rules and trust in the process - they weren’t innocents in this.
So, those are not universally bad intentions. So perhaps, as you say, Lily knows that Severus snuck down with bad intentions - but that’s just the point: some people (presumably Gryffindors) tell Lily that Severus had bad intentions - and instead of her thinking, “Hmm, Severus and James hate each other, there must be more to this.” or “Severus is a Slytherin and I’m always justifying him to my friends, is their story about him likely to be the truth?” - she seemingly accepts their version on face value.
None of this makes what happens to their friendship any easier; I think there are a range of interpretations of their friendship, and a good portion of them equal a rather miserable summer for the pair - breaking up is never easy, even if you believe that it’s for the best, or that the friendship was long over.
The point I’m really getting at is shown in this part of the scene:
“Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?” “I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.” The intensity of his gaze made her blush. “They don’t use Dark Magic, though.” She dropped her voice. “And you’re being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever’s down there – ”
1) I don’t think Lily can be aware of the extent of the bullying, because she doesn’t seem to understand why Severus would be focused on them.
2) Severus is aware that James and Sirius et al are popular.
3) Lily criticised Severus’ housemates, so Severus criticised her housemates - and she ‘wins’ the argument by pointing out that the Marauders don’t use Dark Magic.
4) …and then Lily does exactly what Severus had just said - she proves that she’s heard the Marauders’ version of events, and repeats it - without any regard for how likely it is to be the whole truth.
So she brands her best friend as a sneak and ungrateful, and celebrates his enemy’s behaviour - without first stopping to ask her best friend for his version of events. The worst of this is that just two seconds earlier her best friend even said, “I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”
I rather think that fell on deaf ears.
Being out after curfew is breaking school rules, which is Bad (at least in the eyes of a 99% likely prefect and any school authority), regardless of intentions.
Being off CAMPUS after curfew is breaking rules = Bad.
Being in a forbidden building off campus (that can only be reached by going past yet another forbidden tree that students are told to stay away from) while out after curfew = Bad.
This is all shit that Harry always gets nailed for even when saving the world. (Hell, Snape himself has happily nailed Harry for much, much less.)
“Sneaking” is a perfectly accurate descriptor for Lily to have used because Snape was literally breaking several rather massive school rules just being anywhere near the Shrieking Shack that night, which he knew, and there was NO sensibly good reason for it. Given that their flagrant rule-breaking is a big part of why she hated the Marauders Lily is well justified being disgusted in it from Snape too, because what would “giving his side” have changed about this? For her or anyone else? (Yes I’m referring to Dumbledore here)
“But his reasons–” Was he saving the world from Voldemort’s return or rescuing a kidnapped first-year from Basilisks? (These are the extenuating circumstances that kept Harry from expulsion, and even then people argue it shouldn’t have.) Keeping an innocent man from jail, or even just only there because his pet ran off and he was chasing it? Was he thrown into that tunnel and locked in there, with no way to escape but to go through the Shack?
The only reason Snape was able to give ANYONE was “Sirius Black told me to go, so I went”. That’s it, that is literally the extent of his “side” explaining his actions that night. Unsurprisingly, Dumbledore did not feel this was worth expelling Remus for, and I can’t imagine any way that this would have materially changed Lily’s stance (because she already hated the Marauders for rule-breaking – this was just Snape joining in on it. At Sirius’s behest, sure, but mainly I think her response on knowing this would be “and you went because…????”).
Lily clearly didn’t gaf what was down in the tunnel. Her condemnation was in his having snuck out to find out, which he literally did of his own volition; so yes, he was a sneak and no she’s not “flawed” for pointing that out.
Snape’s problem was he couldn’t see she already thought the Marauders were terrible and he should’ve been more concerned with how she was starting to find him terrible as well.
Your tag ‘no fucking apologies this was on both my dash and in the lily evans tag ffs’ is really quite rude, because this was a reasonable discussion about Lily and her friendship with Snape. It is not unreasonable that this was tagged with Lily’s name; Lily is more than just her relationship with James. (I did ensure that I used the Lily Evans tag and not a Lily Potter tag.)
From your response, you appear to be having an entirely different discussion to the one I was having. In case it wasn’t clear, my discussion doesn’t revolve around whether Lily would be valid in being disappointed in Snape’s behaviour - but discusses her not attempting to gain the story from his perspective before condemning him, and what that subsequently means for the validity of their friendship.
And my point was that her condemnation had everything to do with factual knowledge that didn’t actually require getting Snape’s “perspective” (aside from asking him “were you there?” Given that he wouldn’t have answered anything but “yes” if we’re assuming he wouldn’t straight up lie to her, there is nothing, nothing wrong with getting that information from multiple other sources beyond Snape himself first) before expressing it.
That’s extremely relevant to the question of whether she was being a bad friend in condemning him. thejilyship is absolutely right when they say being a good friend doesn’t mean coddling your friend and never telling them they’re being goddamn stupid af. Hermione would’ve ripped Harry and Ron a new one if they’d pulled a stunt like this.
You say she didn’t require his perspective, but Lily had no way of being certain that the version of events she heard was impartial and factual. The only way she could be sure would be to compare and contrast it to Severus’ own story.
I didn’t say she was being a bad friend in condemning him for his actions; I said that leaping to a conclusion based upon what she had heard from other sources without first verifying with him that it was an accurate account was not consistent with her earlier statement that they were best friends.
Tbh, you have no reason to believe the version of events Lily got WASN’T impartial and factual.
She never says where she got her knowledge. Everything that comes out of her mouth absolutely IS factual and true: Snape DID “sneak” down to the Willow, in the sense that he broke God knows how many school rules going somewhere he wasn’t ever supposed to be, and James’s intervention is literally the only reason he lived past sixteen.
You seem to be assuming that it was James blabbing about the incident all over Gryffindor but there’s zero indication that this was the case, or that Lily couldn’t have just as easily gotten the story from a source she wouldn’t think to question: like McGonagall or Dumbledore. Maybe when trying to find out why all these people are suddenly in mass detention while the Marauders seem to have imploded. Who knows.
More to the point, canon never once gives us a reason to question Lily’s source or her information; not even through Snape, who’s only defence isn’t even “Sirius told me to go” but that “James was just trying to save his friends”.
The fact is she’s got the true knowledge of what happened (at least the particulars SHE cares about), which is a damn good reason to condemn Snape’s actions; and she doesn’t seem to think she needs to question the source, which to me is a screaming indicator that the source isn’t someone she calls an arrogant toerag literally two seconds later, but that’s just me.
The content of what Lily heard is academic. The point is that unless she requested Severus’ version of events, Lily cannot be certain that the source she gained her information from was accurate and without bias, no matter who the source was.
Whilst many will happily condemn others based upon hearsay, most would not condemn their best friend without first hearing their version of events. It is that action which I am commenting upon.
I have clarified this point several times now, and although I am really sorry that this has caused such confusion for you, I suspect I am at a point now where I am unable to assist further. Have a pleasant evening.
I ….really strongly object on the idea that the only unbiased account of that evening Lily could’ve gotten was Snape’s; which would not only be as far from unbiased as one can get, but would in no way alter the material points that Lily was condemning (that he snuck out and almost got himself killed). As she’d just said before the bit being discussed, she “knows his theory” and again, being a best friend in no way requires coddling your friend’s stupidity (obviously the guess about Remus’s lycanthropy wasn’t stupid, just his belief that he had any right making it his business).
But sure, fair enough good evening.
As stated by @th1syearsgirl, we don’t know who Lily’s source is, and Hogwarts is like any other school–things have a way at getting out. Lily knew Snape’s theory about Remus being a werewolf, so to hear that he went sneaking of–more likely than not–after curfew, and she knew he had an obsession (both Rowling and Lily have referred to it as this) with the Marauders, it wouldn’t be improbable to think that he went following them or saw them go near it before and decided to take a look. Plus, it’s more likely than not that both Gryffindor and Slytherin would have lost points because of the incident *insert any instance Harry and co. lost a huge amount of points* and people will investigate why.
Also, I doubt James was saying anything considering how much trouble he went to to save Snape and ensure Remus’ secret stayed a secret.
“Slipped out?” There was no pity in Lily’s voice. “It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends — you see, you don’t even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?”
He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.
“I can’t pretend anymore. You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen mine.”
“No — listen, I didn’t mean —”
“— to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?”
He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she turned and climbed back through the portrait hole… .
Lily was in denial of who he was becoming, it wasn’t a one time thing that made her break of her friendship. It was years of overlooking things. He wasn’t the ideal friend either–he belittled her relationship with Petunia (and has referred to her as just being a Muggle), called those like her Mudbloods, hung out with Death Eaters in training, he doesn’t deny anything she says even when given the opportunity.
I stress, yet again, the source is academic. The content of what Lily heard is academic. The point is, unless Lily compared what she heard - no matter the source - to Snape’s own story, she had no way of being absolutely certain that it was the whole story.
As for the rest of your post, it appears that you have not read the discussion - or perhaps, like your mutual, you have not understood the discussion at hand. You are arguing a point that is irrelevant; the general downward trajectory of their friendship was not what was being discussed.
For clarification, the discussion was about Lily outright reassuring Snape that they were best friends, and then almost immediately condemning him for his supposed actions, without first attempting to gain his version of events, and what that individual action subsequently means for the validity of their friendship.
I have placed the last part in italics, because it seems that this point is being lost in the discussion. I am astonished that this is such a difficult premise; I did not think it was overly complex.
You know, you keep saying this, that the source is irrelevant, and Lily’s fault is in not going to Snape himself for the story. That doesn’t make it true.
It’s extremely relevant to this discussion that we’re never given a reason to question the source at all.
If the source was someone like Dumbledore or McGonagall (no matter how hard some people ~might find it to believe she’d be “okay” with the prank, a) we have no clue if she was ok with it as we’re not looking at HER reaction here, and b) she absolutely WOULD be fucking pissed with kids sneaking off campus in the middle of the night and almost getting killed), Lily has absolutely no reason to question the facts they’re speaking of. And that’s extremely relevant to the question of why she didn’t feel a need to go to Snape to get the story. Contrary to popular belief, neither teacher has a vendetta against Slytherins, nor a reason to skew the facts in anyone’s favour.
That 100% makes them a better source than either Snape (who’d skew the story in his own defence) or the Marauders (who’d skew the story in their defence, assuming they were telling anyone at all).
Also quite relevant to the point, when Snape starts sputtering that James was only trying to save his friends too, Lily doesn’t ask him to hold up and clarify. She expresses no surprise at the involvement of these friends (plural, as in not just Remus); it is just as likely that she already knows about Sirius telling Snape to go there, and her condemnation is in the fact that he broke god knows how many rules TO go at all.
It’s quite frankly…ridiculous tbh…to claim that Lily giving credence to the version of the story she heard means she was lying about (well, believing she was) being Snape’s best friend. There are times when Hermione and Ron have accepted Dumbledore’s advice on how to treat Harry, over Harry’s own feelings. Many times when Hermione has sided with a teacher’s assessment of the situation over Harry. Maybe it’s a good time to point out that being a best friend also doesn’t mean holding them as the ultimate arbiter in any situation involving them?
You can insist that things are relevant, but I am afraid that I do not agree.
The specific discussion was not about whether Lily was ultimately valid in her reaction, but about the juxtaposition between her expressly stating, “We are!” to Snape’s query about them being best friends, and then immediately condemning him based upon hearsay.
You are having a completely different discussion - a fine and perhaps interesting discussion - but one that is far broader than the specific point that I had raised.
For instance, you appear to be arguing the validity of Lily’s behaviour, exploring whether she had good reason to believe her source, or suggesting that Snape’s behaviour warranted such a reaction from her, or that because Snape does not dispute the events, she had the truth and it therefore does not matter that she did not check.
These discussions are not inextricably interlinked. I am explicitly not making a value judgement on Snape’s behaviour in this post. I am not saying that his behaviour that night was right. I am not saying that Lily would’ve listened to his story and sided with him. I am not saying that Snape was behaving, at that point in time, like a best friend towards Lily. I am not saying that that she cannot criticise him, or take a stance, or berate him. I am not saying that she cannot choose to believe someone else’s version of events over his. I am not saying that she would be wrong in pointing out his flaws. I am not saying that she wouldn’t be justified in dropping him as a friend entirely.
To state it loud and clear, I am not even saying that Lily doesn’t have the truth already. She very well might have the absolute, categoric, complete and utter truth already. She really might.
However, what I am saying is that as his best friend, I would expect Lily to have quizzed him about the events before berating him - to check that she had the truth before condemning him. In fact, @wilczawisnia summarised it beautifully in their response earlier: “the best friend is the one who gives me some benefit of the doubt before making the judgement. Lily still could have condemned Severus after listening to his story”
So, what I am saying, for the final time, is: Believing someone else’s story without asking your best friend for their version of events is not the behaviour of a best friend.
I am not saying she is wrong or bad for behaving in such a way. I am merely commenting that her reaction is not the reaction of a best friend.
I do appreciate that you may have a very different value system to me. You are free to believe that Lily’s behaviour was the behaviour of a best friend, but if so, clearly, our standards are very different. I don’t mind being called out by mine when they think I have done something wrong, but I would appreciate it if they heard my side of the story before they judge me.
If one wants a more complete picture of events without bias, then one would go to multiple sources for information to check the validity of the version of events. That’s why police interview multiple witnesses as well as the perpetrator when a crime is committed. What deathdaydungeon was saying before others mashed the points of the discussion up, was that if you are someone’s supposed best friend it generally behooves you to get their side of the story in addition to the sides that are considered authoritative (i.e. a teacher’s). And deathdaydungeon was pointing out how Lily contradicts herself by saying she’s still Severus’ best friend but then immediately shuts down his attempt to explain his side of the story because she has already decided that her source of info for the version of events is the truth.
No one was saying how Severus is the only unbiased source of info. No one was saying that Lily has to ignore Severus’ rule breaking and coddle him in order to be his best friend. It was a discussion of one moment’s interaction that had a blaring contradiction that was interesting to discuss in context to these two characters complicated friendship. What I find interesting is, like Lily, people will attach themselves to a version of events told from one perspective as the ultimate truth without consulting others for additional information and other perspectives. The other posters are siding with Lily as if she has heard The Truth and is the ultimate source of knowledge.
Which is why I agree that this scene is important and fascinating.
this whole post is so wild to me because do you know how bad my best friends would have to fuck up for me not to take their side? like they could call me up and say they killed someone and i’d be like everyone makes mistakes sweetie now you get the bleach and I’ll bring the garbage bags. i mean i’m not talking right or wrong here, i’m talking about what best friend means to me
@deathdaydungeon, @ th1syearsgirl
It’s interesting to see how people expect things to be because I for one would condemn Lily for daring to tell Severus what HE supposedly did even if they weren’t best friends. Hell they could be just classmates and I still would side eye the hell out of her.
Making judgments of a situation you were NOT in and going to berate/talk back to one of the parties of said situation without first listening to their version of their story is.... like how the hell does that sound?
Who without an obvious bias and a side of stubbornness and meanness doesn’t have enough decency to listen to all versions of a story before making a judgment? Especially when you intend to talk to one of the main parties about it.
I would expect that even less of a friend. I would expect that about someone with decency, or at least someone that doesn’t hate me.
Hell I could get philosophical and dip a toe in the concept of “testimony” and how people can easily fall back to believing the randomest shit and claim to “know” something because they never bother to actually check for themselves.
But you can clearly see the bias here. The topic of discussion was not about Severus, the topic of discussion was about the things Lily claims to be and the things she ends up doing. But of course it’s easier to excuse her take on “friendships” because apparently Severus is so deserving of contempt for all the things he did that Lily obviously doesn’t have any moral obligation to honour her own word, not when it comes to Severus, right? Because he totally deserves it.
That’s why these posters jumped right on the train of explaining all the misdeeds Severus committed to somehow explain why Lily not only wouldn’t listen to his version of the story but why she “shouldn’t”, right?
It’s even funnier that they somehow mention Hermione because she still would ask Harry and Ron first before making judgments. HELL, if it came to that, she would be there right along with them breaking the rules, if canon is anything to go by. Which makes me question the validity of the Lily/Severus friendship. Not because Lily wouldn’t risk her life at eleven for Severus, but because she wouldn’t even give him the barest show of empathy.
The idea that Severus’ life was in actual danger was a non-issue for her. She clearly didn’t care about that. There was no concern about his well-being or the supposed threat to his life.
If my best friend came to me saying they did something incredibly stupid but they almost died, I would at least show some concern to the idea that they might have died, even if they didn’t. Meanwhile Lily only cared that Severus “broke the rules”.
Even Hermione wasn’t that sanguine.
And she probably did get the information from the Marauders, if not from any third party as J.K implicitly implied rumours travel fast at Hogwarts. Why would Dumbledore and McGonagall say anything to her? Why take for fact that she got the information from them when there is no evidence to it, and no logic to it either because again, why would the Headmaster and the Headmistress of Hogwarts bother to tell some random girl about something that had nothing to do with her?
