Son of Tydeus - The Musical

Everyone is welcome to contribute! /// What if there was a musical about Diomedes of Argos? Master of the war cry, the best of the greeks during the Iliad second only to Achilles What story does he have to tell?

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

Welcome to the Son of Tydeus: The Musical blog!

Our progress, ideas, polls and more will be posted here on this blog to keep you up-to-date!

Join our Discord Server: here !

We're also very open to any asks, comments, questions and suggestions!

It really warms our hearts and delights us to see how many poeple have already shown interest in this project, and we're excited to continue this journey with you :)

Overview and FAQ to the musical and us below

Who are we? 

In the most literal sense we are Ley and Bea. (Our personal blogs are @leynaeithnea & @friedmagazinebouquet )

We are two storytellers who are completely normal about mythology, and Diomedes in particular! Obviously!

We started working on this musical in early October, after an off-hand comment in a discord server that someone should make a musical about Diomedes.

Somehow we decided to keep daydreaming about it, asking "what-if" after "what-if", and eventually figured that sometimes you have to take things into your own hands.

What will this musical be about?

The life of Diomedes of Argos, from his father's death when he was 4 years old, all the way up until his own. As of now we plan to be covering his childhood, the Trojan War, his homecoming, exile, life in Italy and the end of his mortal life.

What will be the format of the musical?

It will be fully sung-through, allowing for it to be easily accessible to everyone once it is complete.

We want to emphasize auditory storytelling so that no visual elements will be necessary to get the full expierence.

Though visuals (be it animation, stage play or other) might still allow for even more immersion, it's an element that we won't put our focus on for now

What stage of production are we at?

We are currently in the earliest planning stages, where we are gathering information, researching and working on defining a set timeline, figuring out what aspects we'll want to focus on and what story we are trying to tell, before we move on to drafting a storyline and eventually tackling the songs itself.

Why are we doing this?

Primarily because Diomedes rarely ever gets mentioned in any modern media unlike so many other ancient greek heroes. Despite his incredibly interesting life and major role in the Iliad he gets cut from nearly all adaptations and is barely known at all, and we decided we want to change that.

On top of that we also see it as a great chance to not only expand our knowledge about Diomedes himself, but gain a more in depth understanding of the myths and tales themselves.

Will OdyDio be canon?

...nope. There is plently shipping content for them already! (And also another musical in production where they'll be canon, check out @arwenmusic "All Fall Together" for a retelling of the Trojan war from the trojan perspective!)

For us, we want to tell the story of Diomedes. Not Diomedes in the shadow of Odysseus, who has his own epic, musical and much content already)

Odysseus inevitably will play a role in SoT but any romantic infatuation between him and Diomedes will not be canon.

We want to strive for source-accuracy as much as we can - especially concerning the events around Troy, as we have the most sources for those and hence have decided against including the ship.

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

Them: you need to kill some of them for the story...

Me: WELL WHAT IF I DON'T

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

On the train home after the Trip to Greece....seen many places, many museums....gonna try my best to use it all as inspiration to move forward with the project :)

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

SoT Update

I know updates have been slow recently, but there's a reason! Because upcoming week... I'm going to Greece!!

We plan on visting the places (we can) that are important to Diomedes - like Argos, Thebes & Calydon - to get a better feeling for them both through the archeological sites, the locations as well as what these places and its people are like today :)

Im also hoping to find the time to visit the museum of folk instruments in Athens

So updates may be slow, but we're on it, I may share some impressions of Greece when it's time and I find a minute 😉

Oh and i started working on song 2 as well, oops 🤭

[mokishy]

Why turnus and Euippe might be siblings, making Diomedes and Turnus brothers in law

This sounds so random, BUT BEAR WITH ME, I PROMISE THIS MAKES SOME SENSE. And strap in its gonna be a long one

And this is not because their father have the same name. it would be stupid to assume that, but I did find some claims that make it rather plausible

Firstly, who is euippe? Euippe is the daughter of daunus of Apulia. She married Diomedes after he helped them fight off the Messapians in Italy. They had two kids together, Diomedes and Amphinomus, and lived a pretty peaceful life from what we know. Her mother is currently unknown, I found no sources citing her or alluding to her.

Turnus is the son daunus of rutuli and the nymph Venilia he asks for diomedes's help in the aeneid to help fight off aeneas, which he refuses to do so.

Apulia and the land of the Rutuli are geographically speaking, distinct regions. Apulia lies in southeastern Italy, while the Rutuli occupied Latium in central western Italy. On the surface, they are entirely separate.

However, as noted by T. P. Wiseman in The Myths of Early Rome (2004), Virgil frequently blends regional Italic traditions, merging different local myths into a single narrative framework. This tendency complicates any strict geographical reading of the Aeneid.

This becomes particularly significant when considering Ardea, the center of the Rutulian people, which some traditions associate with Daunian origins. This introduces ambiguity not only in mythological lineage but also in how ancient populations were geographically understood.

Further evidence comes from the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax, attributed to Pseudo-Scylax (mid-4th century BC), which describes Mediterranean coastal populations. Historians have used this text to argue that Daunian groups were present beyond Apulia, extending into parts of central Italy, including Latium and Campania during the Iron Age.

Archaeological findings reinforce this perspective. Daunian geometric pottery dating to the 7th and 6th centuries BC has been discovered in Campania and Latium, suggesting either migration, cultural diffusion, or a broader Daunian presence than traditionally assumed.

Additionally, the Apulian king Daunus ruled over the Daunians, whose territory bordered that of the Messapians. In the Aeneid, Virgil includes a Rutulian ally named Messapus, whose name closely resembles that of the Messapians, potentially reflecting another instance of regional blending.

Finally, some ancient traditions place the Daunians within Latium itself. Taken together, this evidence suggests that Virgil’s portrayal of Daunus as the father of Turnus may intentionally conflate different traditions. Rather than representing two entirely separate figures, the Daunus of Apulia and the Daunus associated with the Rutuli may have been understood by Virgil as one and the same, especially given his emphasis on Turnus’s mixed heritage.

Now this is...messy, to say the least. Turnus's family tree is incredibly messy because we have no clear indication of *which* daunus we are talking about, is je an actual historical figure or a king made up by virgil so he can capitalize on his prior known past? But first time answer this question who even is daunus?

On paper Daunus is:

an Illyrian

who migrated into Apulia (southern Italy)

and gave his name to the region, Daunia!

He’s not originally Latin, not from Turnus’ homeland.

Turnus is said to be the son of Daunus, BUT that doesn’t really match the “normal” version of who Daunus is. Virgil suddenly presents Daunus as the father of Turnus, tied to Ardea when (italian) daunus has seemingly been universally agreed upon to be the king of the daunians and of Apulia.

"The Rutulian connection is puzzling. " Patris anti-quam Dauni defertur ad urbem" can hardly mean anything except " ad Ardeam " as Servius says on this line (x, 688), but this transplanting of Daunus seems exclusively Vergilian. Many have struggled with the genealogy of Turnus and tried to recon- cile its inconsistencies by establishing the exact relationship of Daunus, Pilumnus, and Danae"

Holland, Louise Adams. “Place Names and Heroes in the Aeneid.” The American Journal of Philology, Vol. 56, No. 3 (1935).

"This sensible commentary has had little effect. Rehm 14 takes it that the name Daunian which we know in northern Apulia once belonged also to a people of the Rutulian district who later disappeared....This by no means proves that the districts to which she (cassandra) refers are adjacent. "@

Holland, Louise Adams. “Place Names and Heroes in the Aeneid.” The American Journal of Philology, Vol. 56, No. 3 (1935).

From what we are getting at, Virgil is not being consistent with lineage, The text suggests Virgil may have "transplanted" Daunus to the west coast for his own poetic purposes which seems consistent so far with how virgil has handled prior myths in the story.

Daunus is clearly tied to Apulia But Virgil places him in Rutulian/Ardean context ->Scholars themselves call this “puzzling” and unresolved, leading to attempts to separate or systematize it don’t hold up Therefore:

The idea that these are two completely distinct figures is not stable

author brings up Rehm’s theory (that there was a disappearing tribe of Rutulian Daunians) but immediately undercuts it by saying the evidence from Lycophron "by no means proves" the locations were adjacent. The author brings up Rehm’s theory (that there was a disappearing tribe of Rutulian Daunians) but immediately undercuts it by saying the evidence from Lycophron "by no means proves" the locations were adjacent.

This suggests that Virgil isn't trying to be a historian or a geographer he is kinda just being a poet. He takes Daunus (a legendary figure with high "prestige") and moves him to Ardea to give Turnus a more impressive, ancient pedigree.

SO within this framework, Euippe—identified as a daughter of Daunus—can be understood as part of the same Daunian mythic lineage complex, potentially representing a parallel familial branch rather than a strictly separate genealogical line from Turnus. Or in other words, siblings!

This would also make turnus turning (no pun intended) to Diomedes for help to fight off aeneas a lot more cohesive, because why turnus would put himself through a lot of trouble to go ALL THE WAY TO APULIA simply to ask a specific well known warrior for help in his war? UNLESS HES ASKING HIS BROTHER IN LAW

If we consider that in the aeneid the two locations were merged or at least blurred + the fact that Diomedes is Turnus's brother in law suddenly this makes a whole lot of sense

Therefore, Euippe, being his sister, actually makes too much sense and I will not be taking criticism./j

On a serious note, I hope this was comprehensive in some way! I had so much gun typing this down, and please forgive me for any typos or grammar mistakes. 🩷

All sources are listed below:

__________________________________________

https://topostext.org/work/102

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunians

https://www.jstor.org/stable/289672 (this one's really interesting)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25010986

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35038748/#:~:text=Iron%20Age%20Context-,The%20Genetic%20Origin%20of%20Daunians%20and%20the%20Pan-Mediterranean%20Southern,:%2010.1093/molbev/msac014.

[herb-on-a-stick]

The Diomedes musical would be called "Son of Tydeus" because even in his own musical his father overshadows him

[soundbuster]

Damn, yeah.

I may need to look back at the Iliad, but nearly every time Diomedes is shown or talked to, his father is brought up and not just to mention Diomedes' blood line like Achilles being called the Son of Peleus or Odysseus the Son of Laertes.

Tydeus was one of the Seven Against Thebes, seven champions that served to put Oedipus's son Polynices in the Theban Throne as it's mentioned in the play Antigone.

Unlike Achilles and Odysseus who get their own glory and move past their fathers, Dio really couldn't. Heck, in Book 4, Agamemnon riles him up by mentioning that his father would have been a better fighter against the Trojans than him. Daddy issues, much?

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

Diomedes relationship with Tydeus is really interesting, especially if you consider how your ancestors kleos (glory) also counted towards your own and how important it was for social standing.

Tydeus - as we learn from the fragments of the Theban Cycle as well as other sources recounting the Theban Wars, along with the plays & Statius' Thebaid, the retelling of the Seven Against Thebes - was a great favorite of Athena, a crazy fighter who not only beat everyone in all the games (Iliad Book 5) but also defeated the 50 assassins sent after him. Which did give him a lot of kleos, so much so that Athena wanted to make him immortal.

But then he commited cannibalism as he was dying...leaving Diomedes with quite a complex heritage to deal with.

A father to revenge, a father to live up to and a father to be better than

Its gonna be fun to explore that :)

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

SoT Update

Worked on the characters* goals last session

Theres a point when you cant think straight anymore and start writing down bs and itll be the best youve ever written down <3

* list of characters up to change

[arwenwenofficial]

merry new year! tldr; I'm writing a musical about the trojan war, and i think some people may or may not like it :D

cast: Ibra Bittar @ibrabittar Anna Lea (@musicannalea on Tiktok) R. Cassidy (@rdacitycassidy on Tiktok) garageboyomar (@garageboyomar on Tiktok) Danny Fett (@dannyfettt on Tiktok) Lucius Jones (@luciusjonessings on Tiktok) Reed Phillips (@whoisreedphillips on Tiktok) Gavin Standish (@gstarfish on Tiktok) Hannah Walter (@hannahwalter38 on Tiktok) OlinaW (@olinaw3 on Instagram)

crew: Ibra Bittar Lucius Jones Mircsy @mircsy Dóchas @paudiedraws XenZ Fable @xenzfable Matthew Bishop Meadow Angel (@_meadowangel on Tiktok) Fabyen Yumakaeva (@fabyenmyths, possibly)

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

[imcasperfox]

The most amazing cast has been assembled for SfS part 2 - see you April 30th!!

[anniflamma]

You better check this out guys! ^^

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

Progress has been made (a little bit)

Working on the storyoutline of songs 3 and figured out Deipyle more :D he's some memes that came from the call

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

SoT Update

We finally outlined the plot of song 2 and a few lyrics and we added more characters / adding a new concept for the gods ✨️

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

Funfact the current number of characters is about 69

Is that too much? Maybe! Maybe we'll get it down to 67

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

Would you still want Diomedes to become a god if he was a war criminal? 👉👈

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

Son of Tydeus Musical Upadate

The discord guessed the right song number! It was 15! So heres a small insight :)

Song 15

The armies are gathered, but theres no wind to set their sails...a goddess demands a young girls life as price

(First draft lyrics)

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

Drove home from work, suddenly had a song idea for one of the songs in the middle of the road

Me frantically trying to not forget it before I can safely start an audio recording on my phone at the text red light 🥲🥲🥲

Well its 10 minutes, of which probably a total of 3 lines / 15 seconds will be useable

But one more song started :)

I will tell you which if you can guess which song number it is out of 60

You get 10 guesses each, if any of those is right, Ill tell you :)

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

The discord guessed it!will be revealed

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

Drove home from work, suddenly had a song idea for one of the songs in the middle of the road

Me frantically trying to not forget it before I can safely start an audio recording on my phone at the text red light 🥲🥲🥲

Well its 10 minutes, of which probably a total of 3 lines / 15 seconds will be useable

But one more song started :)

I will tell you which if you can guess which song number it is out of 60

You get 10 guesses each, if any of those is right, Ill tell you :)

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

Son of Tydeus Musical Update

I just received the feedback from our sensitivity reader @wordsmithic ♡

A small peak into the feedback 😜🫣

Tyndaraueus 🙃😇🫠....one day I'll learn them right

Funfact it was easier for me to learn to pronounce Oedipodionides than learn to spell Sthenelus 😅

♡ giving me some great ideas to work with

Sticking to the sources has been important to us from the very beginning so its lovely to see it approved as well 🤗

Theres also been some very insightful commentary that I'll brood over and implement as I continue to work on the lyrics now ♡

For anyone working on a greek retelling i recommend getting a sensitivity reader whos closely connected and involved with greek history, mythology and culture too ♡ its great