‘non-binary’ activists: But there totally are genders that aren’t male or female, just look at intersex people, ancient non-western civilizations, the gender/sex difference, etc.!
me: Intersex is not a third sex, it is a birth defect. This is supported by the Intersex Society of North America and many medical research associations (like Sigma X). Despite common misconceptions, people with intersex conditions are still physiologically male or female (not “neither” and not “both”). Histology (the study/examination of cell tissues) reveals that in all intersex individuals with a present Y chromosome (such as in Kleinfelter’s Syndrome or Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome), there will always be traces of testicular cell tissues within the reproductive organs and zero traces of ovarian cell tissues. The inverse is also true for intersex individuals with X-only chromosomes (such as in Turner’s Syndrome or Triple X Syndrome); zero traces of testicular cell tissue with many traces of ovarian cell tissue. Also notice how all individuals with intersex conditions will only have X or Y in their chromosomes; no W or Z. The same can be said for their reproductive tissues; there are only testicular or ovarian cell tissues, there is no known third type. These aspects are part of the foundations for human life, and they come in pairs; each deciding masculine traits (Y-chromosomes, testosterone, testicular cell tissue) or feminine traits (X-chromosomes, estrogen, ovarian cell tissue). There obviously isn’t too much deviation from the “binary” here; even intersex individuals are incapable of “breaking the binary” of the biological foundation pairs.
me: The ‘non-western’ societies that supposedly have “non-binary” genders (which are mainly found in third-world countries) still always have ‘common’ males and females involved in them; proving that the necessity/classification of male and female is deeply ingrained in human beings. The alleged “non-binary” genders are always either: a “combination” of male or female (Two-Spirit and Bissu), drag queens (Hijrah), or feminine men (Fa'afafine, Eunuch, Khanith). These “non-binary” genders aren’t actually “non-binary”; they are still based on male/female foundations and usually do not claim to be ‘third’ genders. In fact, these “non-binary genders” are in reality just religious and/or spiritual justifications used by third-world societies to explain medical conditions like intersex or behaviors that deviate from the accepted concept of male or female. It’s also worth mentioning that the feminine men ‘genders’ (like Hijrah) are notorious for doing things like soliciting money through illegal prostitution/“magic curses” and abducting young orphan boys to be indoctrinated. But that’s a whole different topic.
me: Also the “sex and gender are different” theory was originally coined and ‘tested’ by Dr. John Money; a child molester who unsuccessfully tried converting a young boy (David Reimer) into a girl by making him perform sexual acts on his twin brother, leading both of them to commit suicide later in life. Even though this theory is somehow widely accepted, it has not been tested/researched beyond the tragic David Reimer case, and thus has very little concrete evidence supporting it. In addition, there aren’t really any compelling arguments as to why “gender identity” is legitimate (or should be believed) besides repeating “Because I said so.” or “Because it is.”
me: One final thing, isn’t the concept of “bigender” (being both male and female, like in Two-Spirit) not really “non-binary” at all? Considering there’s still only male and female involved, it goes against the definition of “non-binary”: being “neither male or female.” Just because there is a “combination” of both male and female, it doesn’t mean it’s a new “third gender.” That would be like saying a chocolate-vanilla swirl ice-cream is strawberry or mint; it’s still just chocolate and vanilla (only they’re put together).
‘non-binary’ activists: *silent*
{For sources, see the bottom of this post.}
dr. john money is still right, even if he was a goddamn child molester…but what do you mean it needs testing and research?there isn’t any further reasoning, it’s widely accepted because trans people exist. it’s really simple to understand…
the definition of nonbinary is actually “someone who does not identify exclusively as male or female.” “unknown gender” was always classified as “Other”, which is the third gender option.
matt burnett was right on the “there are no male gems because we already have lots of male superheroes in the media” thing. it’s the TRUTH.
well, you aren’t the only one who hates SU’s canon (look at the su critical tag). but crappy movie prequels and one specific character still aren’t really comparable.
also, are you aware that there’s another nonbinary character, smoky quartz (amethyst and steven fusion)?
I appreciate that you are the first to respond to my post, but your first statements beg the question:
How exactly is Dr. Money still ‘right’?
And why do you believe the theory of gender identity (as it was referred to by Dr. John Money himself) does not require further reasoning?
In any scientific field (psychology, biology, sociology, etc.) a theory is always tested using the scientific method through predictions and experimentation.
Just because something “exists” (i.e. trans people) does not mean it is the be-all-end-all evidence that should be immediately accepted as truth, there needs to be further testing for it to even be considered a realistic possibility.
The very fact that “gender identity disorder” was lobbied and campaigned against by pro-LGBT politicians to be removed from the DSM-5 (not through experiments or research) is telling.
“identify exclusively as male or female”: If there is still male and female involved in “nonbinary” genders, then it’s technically still within the male and female “binary”. Therefore it is not “nonbinary”.
You can slightly alter the definition, but the fact that a vast majority of “nonbinary” people say they are “not male or female” is now false considering the definition you just used implies that they are still within male/female bounds.
You also did not refer to one of my other points, which pretty much addresses your position on ‘gender identity’: just because you “identify” as something does not mean others are required to believe it.
And I am well aware of Smoky Quartz; I think one thing I can agree with most of the SU fandom on is that her design is absolutely shit. But besides that, Smoky Quartz is yet another “progressive” pandering character for the ‘social justice’ audience, nothing new from the show.
1) his hypothesis is: “Gender is the state of the mind”, which i agree with. 2) uh no he didn’t, he thinks “instinctive masculinity and femininity” is a theory. john colapinto, the writer of that book, is the one who referred to it as a theory.
how stupid are you? “Gender is different from sex” literally only applies to transgenders and intersexes. stop thinking it’s a debunkable theory already.
“While the difference may seem semantic, transgender advocates see the change as a huge leap forward. Dysphoria is temporary, after all, while a disorder is perhaps permanent. Advocates also see the new definition as a shield against politicians who perhaps see the condition as a mental illness.” i don’t understand why you think experimentations and research are needed here…………..
i said “DOES NOT identify exclusively as male or female”. you did say you haven’t been using tumblr long enough, i guess you haven’t seen “Gender is a spectrum.”
and it’s not false, nonbinary is an umbrella term. those vast majority of people you mentioned most likely call themselves agender (which is still nb).
how does that determine my stance on gender identity? i didn’t refer to the intersex and non-western societies stuff because i didn’t know shit about either topics. sheesh!
http://crystalgem-confessions.tumblr.com/post/148898653690/smokey-quartz-made-me-feel-a-lot-better-about-how boosting self-esteem is such a sjw thing i guess.
As I asked before, why are you so against experimentation and research in this topic? You have not given a reason why, and I don’t see how blindly accepting someone’s personal feelings to ease their “temporary dysphoria” is solid proof.
And I have seen that “gender spectrum” bullshit before, and all it really is is a glorified way of basically saying “I can identify as whatever I want without actually elaborating what it is.”
And while “agender” is a whole different topic of intellectual dishonesty, I will say that it is physically impossible to have no sex at all, and anyone who claims to have no male/female “gender identity” is making a fool of themselves.
“Agender” people might as well go with a made-up, abstract concept as their “gender”.
Also, the crucial statement I made earlier (that just because you say you’re something does not make it objectively true) still stands.
“Gender identity” has very little solid evidence to support it as truth besides “it’s polite to go along with it”.
The reason I keep saying “gender and sex are different” is a debunked theory is because if “gender identity” can be easily discarded with a simple statement (as bolded above), then there isn’t much that separates it from a mental delusion.
You stated yourself that Dr. Money’s hypothesis is “gender is the state of mind”, so even if Dr. Money himself may have not called it a “theory”, it is still a hypothesis that needs to be properly tested, especially if it is to be taken seriously as a scientific fact.
I’m sorry, but the theory that “gender and sex are different” and “gender identity is truth” is based too much on people’s personal feelings and not facts. This is why things like the “attack helicopter gender” meme are spammed so much.
And shitty cartoon character designs aren’t excused by the fact someone got good feelings and “felt better” by looking at it. That’s kind of sad and pathetic, imo.
nah, discarding gender identity by calling it “delusional and not believable” is just a load of both transphobia and nb erasure.
look, they should research what CAUSED transgender people to feel like they were born in the wrong body. it’s sad that you’re still stuck on thinking “gender is different from sex” is a theory…
and you can’t just call psychological conditions “personal feelings”, my god.
i remember watching one of Blaire White’s videos on Youtube, where she said that transgender women’s brain structures are similar to biological women’s. her link to the article about it is gone, but it’s still worth noting.
ignoring the show’s creators and dismissing the canon because it’s crap are also based on feelings sooooooo…
there are people in the world who look like smoky, it’s your problem if you think they’re ugly lol
Using the typical “transphobia” card really isn’t a good reason that supports the “gender identity” theory. The term “transphobia” in and of itself is an emotional response towards people who don’t cater to a personal “identity.” It is not scientific or a valid fact. If you want the general populace to take “gender identity” seriously, it needs to be properly researched with concrete facts; which many people, including yourself, seem to be against.
The entire field of psychology (which itself is a soft-science) is based on anecdotal evidence of people’s feelings. That’s why ‘mental illnesses’ are categorized by common patterns of feelings and/or actions in people. What else would you call psychological conditions? They are by-definition certain personal emotions felt by people.
Again, why I say “gender and sex are different” is a theory is because the “gender” part refers to baseless “feelings” that can be easily discarded.
For example, what’s to stop someone from just creating a gender called “Iersen” (an abstract concept) and demand that everyone takes it seriously? That would be kind of silly; which is (again) why the “attack helicopter gender” meme exists.
I will agree with you that dismissing canon because its shit may be a personal response, but it’s a false equivalence to compare it to “gender identity”. One is dismissing the preachy messages of a cartoon, the other is claiming to have either some made-up state of being (”other” gender) or none at all (”agender”). The first one at least acknowledges objective reality.
And where did I say I think people who look like Smoky Quartz are “ugly”? I highly doubt that there are people out in the world with dark gray skin and third arms. lol
I just said that Smoky’s shitty character-design is still shit regardless. And that anyone who pretty much says “a cartoon character made me feel better about myself” is kind of sad and pathetic.
well yeah, it IS “personal feelings”. transitioning will make transgender people happier and have a better wellbeing. there is no “proper research with concrete scientific facts” because IT’S OBVIOUSLY A PSYCHOLOGICAL THING.
why is your definition of psychology so wrong? psychology is the study of the human mind and behavior. it’s not just emotion. according to Wikipedia; it also includes perception, cognition, attention, intelligence, phenomenology, motivation, brain functioning, and personality. it’s not fucking anecdotal.
wikipedia’s definition of mental disorders: behavioral or mental pattern that may cause suffering or a poor ability to function in life. it’s not “categorized certain types of stupid feelings” you ignorant fuck.
you failed to understand what psychology is about, how are people gonna take YOU seriously? your lack of empathy is making you look dumb…
the attack helicopter meme is “i’m ridiculing you because i don’t understand you” type stuff. look at this chart, you’ll see that these nb genders are not random shit like “lersen”.
i don’t know why butch and femme are on here, though. those aren’t genders, they are terms for lesbians only.
keep in mind that this is a fantasy show. alien gem people and monsters are in it, which don’t exist either :)
it’s not gray, it’s fucking BROWN! and i didn’t mean it literally, numbskull -_-. i meant dark-skinned and fat.
anyone? including kids? wow stevonnieisagirl, that’s pretty terrible of you to think that. smh.
but there’s nothing wrong with feeling better because of a fictional character, it’s good that they’re having a positive impact on people.
i’m not understanding how you think a fusion of a boy and a girl equals a bigger, teenage girl. doesn’t make sense to me, what kind of math is that? does that mean connie’s the dominant one? but i’m pretty sure steven and connie are equal in their relationship.
In your first sentences, you pretty much just admitted that “gender identity” cannot be researched with concrete facts because it is a psychological (soft science) concept, therefore there’s really no good to believe it’s “real”. And how can you say “it’s not fucking anecdotal” when anecdotal evidence (by definition) is “evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony”.
The only thing transgender people have to support their “gender identity” is ‘informal personal testimony’, thus it is anecdotal.
The observational/naturalistic psychological studies you mentioned (”perception, cognition, attention, etc.”) are about the only non-anecdotal aspects of psychology, since they only rely on observing and documenting the actions of people, which is objective evidence (pretty much anyone can see how a person is physically acting/behaving and write them down in a study).
That’s why psychology distinguishes between behaviors (observed actions) and mental-processes (what someone is thinking). Mental processes cannot be directly observed by everyone (only by the person who is thinking them), so they rely heavily on anecdotal evidence of what the person says they are thinking or feeling. That’s where the ‘mental disorders’ topic gets very subjective.
You most likely wouldn’t say a schizophrenic person’s view of reality is objectively true (maybe for them, but not others), and you may not approve of people who cut off their limbs to ‘ease dysphoria’ like trans people (BIID). So what makes transgender conditions different that they should be approved of? All of the mental states I mentioned (save for maybe BIID) are only supported to be subjectively “true” in the person’s mind.
And please chill out over the psychology definition, I know the general foundations of what it is; I’ve even taken a few introductory psychology classes at school. I just stated my paraphrased version, which I will apologize for.
Just because I didn’t mention every single facet of psychology or psychological concept in my response, doesn’t mean I’m completely stupid on the subject.
Regarding the “who’s going to take YOU seriously” part: most psychologists (who have more authority on the subject than you or me) haven’t reached a definite consensus on if transgender is a mental illness. For example: one of my past psychology professors had his suspicions that ‘gender dysphoria’ was a form of psychosis, but another saw nothing wrong with it. A more famous example would the Dr. Jordan Peterson “pronoun refusal” shitstorm that happened in Canada.
If even expert psychologists can’t completely agree on whether “gender identity” is real or not, then that just goes to show that it’s very subjective and (so-far) unsupportable without the baseless “just ~validate~ them” excuse.
I also don’t understand how not having ‘empathy’ equates to being stupid. Hard sciences are usually separate from ethic/moral dilemmas (which is soft science’s job), and they’re generally considered ‘smart’ fields of study.
And who are you to say “Iersen” is “random shit”? It could possibly be someone’s personal concept of what they describe their ‘identity’ as. It could even fall under “Aliagender” or “Third gender” in that chart you posted. Even “epicene” sounds similar to it.
Would you really deny someone the satisfaction of “validating” the term they use to describe their personal near-and-dear ‘gender identity’? /s
Also, that chart probably wasn’t the best pic you could have used, since there’s zero creditability/sources behind it, and it’s been parodied numerous times.
I’m sorry, but a lot of what you’re arguing is based on “having empathy” and “feelings”. Both are (again) pretty insubstantial things to convince people that something is “true” or “good” (like “gender identity”).
It’s a big part of why a good majority of people don’t buy into the “non-binary”/”transgender” thing. People seem more often to appreciate cold, scientific facts over someone’s ~feelings~.
And I’m also sorry you think it’s “terrible” of me to diss people with inferiority-complexes, but someone has to state the reality of their sad situation.
Also, you’re right, Stevonnie is a fictional character in a fantasy universe, so she could be pretty much anything in the human imagination: it’s just that her being a girl objectively makes her a much better, less tumblr-y character, so I went with that. Her ‘canon’ version is shit imo. lol
