Matt & Ross Duffer on STRANGER THINGS' end, Eleven's fate, Steve's "death", original casting choices
They said some nice things about Noah followed by some pretty nasty comments. Interestingly, they knew the wrong words were coming out of their mouth as they were saying it, and one of them apologized mid-sentence only for them to end on an even worse note. Saying you are glad you are not a person's father in a live interview is pretty messed up, even in jest. When you are letting stuff like this slip live, it says a lot about what you actually think about that person.
They are also very dismissive towards Byler. While it is fine for writers to choose their own paths for stories and to not have two characters end up together, it is odd how they and other people don't understand the dynamic that was created with Will and Mike's relationship or why so many people shipped Byler. This wasn't a scenario where neither of the characters expressed interest in each other. I could understand mocking a scenario if people are shipping two people who clearly have zero chance of ending up together (ex. Dustin and Lucas). However, in the Byler scenario, Will was clearly deeply in love with Mike. It was cannon. He was also a very traumatized character who secretly used his love for Mike to repair his relationship with El by using a painting he created. He burst into tears over it. To not understand why some people would be rooting for Will to find happiness to me is just strange. It's cool to not ship it but to not understand it all to me really does seem like some people are wearing homophobic blinders.
Since we know Byler isn't canon, what exactly explains Mike's behavior here? I guess he really did just go through a period of being an awful friend when he hit puberty. Not hugging your best friend when you see them at the airport after six months is pretty messed up when it was clear they were expecting a hug in return. For every queer kid that lost their best friend in the same exact way, I feel you. It happened to me. Poor Will. This hits way too close to home. I won't be able to rewatch this series because of it. Will gets put through way too much trauma to go through so many seasons of unrequited love.
What the Duffers did with Will and Mike was much worse than queer baiting. The problem is that they put a very sweet and selfless character, Will, through almost nonstop trauma for five seasons straight and did a slow burn rejection. They tortured the fuck out of a character and left him empty handed. For people who are gay, it is particularly rough since he is the only gay character on the show. I relived by childhood trauma through this kid holding onto a sliver of hope that Mike was just suppressing his feelings and would reveal them in the final season. Alas, he never did. I think the Duffers were just genuinely going for a story line of empowerment. They wanted to spread the message that it is ok if your first crush does not like you back and that people who are gay should love themselves regardless of what others think of them. That story line is fine as long as you're not putting the rejected character through five seasons of non-stop trauma that would make a director of torture porn blush. And let's be clear, this wasn't just minor forms of trauma. Will was kidnapped to another dimension for a week and symbolically sexually assaulted. He was possessed by a demon for a year when he was a 13-year-old and got to experience what it felt like to be burned alive. Fun stuff. Yea, this is the kid we should also use to teach the audience the lesson that you should find the strength to get over your first "crush", smh. And let's talk about that "crush". This wasn't someone Will knew for a few months or lusted over from afar in school. This was his best friend of ten years who he fell deeply in love with and who he also watched slowly drift away as he was dealing with all of this trauma. And he was slowly drifting away because Mike fell in love with someone else who saved his life, El, who also became his sister. This just added even more guilt and shame on top of an enormous pile of trauma. Even if fans of Byler don't realize this, I think this is a huge reason why they are fuming. There is injustice here. Will Byers was put through too much as a character on a tv show. He deserved better at the end.
I wouldn't have minded Will being rejected by Mike if they hadn't dragged out out this story for so many seasons. It was a slow burn rejection for such a sympathetic character that grew up poor, was abandoned by their dad, bullied in school, abducted and violated in the upside down for a week, possessed by the mind player for a year, subjected to extreme torture such as the feeling of being burnt alive, abandoned by his friends when he needed them the most, subjected to deep depression because of his sexuality, and given the world's worst bowl cut known to man on top of it. They put this character through all of this and made him visibly yearn for his best friend, who was initially one of the few people in his life who didn't abandon him until he eventually did. Despite his best friend neglecting him, he took a painting he poured his love into and claimed it came from Mike's girlfriend to save his friend's straight relationship. Will, despite all his trauma, was the most selfless character. This is not a character who should have been rejected and denied love. If they made the rejection a one season storyline and then gave Will an actual love interest, than that would have been fine. Instead, they put him through so much pain for five seasons steaight, and then tried to sell it as a brief crush that he should get over at the very end. Seeing Will given an epilogue boyfriend as he is forced to live far away from his friends who he deeply feared would abandon him once he came out was really tough to watch. I dont buy that Will had a happy ending, which is the one thing I wanted for the character. It was great that he got powers and found self acceptance, but this was a character that deserved so much more given the pain they were subjected to.
There is no way to rationally have arguments with people that don't understand why "Will had to come out as gay". Will was established as one of the main characters in episode one. He was coded as gay in the subtext in the first episode. Along with the supernatural struggles, one of his main personal struggles was how deeply he was in the closet and the psychological pain it was causing him. It has also been well established that the main antagonistic uses one's personal trauma against them. Noah Schnapps performance in the scene was also beautiful. It was emotional and well-acted. This is a show about and for outcasts. Will's coming out and acceptance from friends and family were critical for the growth of his character and the plot. People who don't understand this are either homophobic or incredibly dense.
I know a lot of you out there are hurting. For me at least, I saw myself in Will. I know how painful it is to be queer and not have that first love be reciprocated. How difficult it is to find love in the first place when you are gay, in the closet, and no one to open up to. I was hoping Will would have his happy ending with Mike and thought this might help repair a hole in my broken heart. I have never shed so many tears over a tv show. I burst into tears at every emotional Will scene. Destroying castle byers. That hug at the airport. The painting lie. Will's and Mike's conversation outside the radio station. To see the story end in a way that too often happens in real life brought back a lot of that heartache and more tears as well. Despite all this, I found something in this online community. Thousands of other people like me who have gone through similar pain and saw themselves in Will. Despite all of the flaws in Stranger Things, Will's character made so many people like me feel seen, and I am forever grateful for that. I love all of you in this fandom deeply.
A few thoughts on the final season. Overall, it was, by far, the weakest season of the show unfortunately. There were a few great moments though, and episode 4 was excellent. I really liked Will and Robbin's relationship and Will becoming a sorcerer. The coming out scene, while having way too many people in the room and being a bit out of place in the story, was also moving due to Noah's acting in that scene. The performances by Jamie, Sadie, and Gaten were also excellent and noteworthy. Other than that, the last season was really poor. The enormous plot holes, the constant use of expositional dialogue, the existence of too many characters, and the weak writing really dragged this season down. I also have come to realize that the Duffers really lost their motivation with this season in terms of taking the story seriously. At one point, Robbin's character in the upside jokes about not knowing whether or not the air is poisonous. The Duffer's are poking fun at their own lazy writing (Like messing up with Will's birthday in season 4). Good storytelling involves world building. These egregious mistakes seriously hurt the rewatchability of the show. Season five on numerous occasions jumped the shark. As for Byler, I would have been fine with it not happening, but they needed to sell Mike's romantic relationship with El and reaffirm Mike's platonic relationship with Will, and they really did neither (with episode 4 being the sole exception when it came to Byler). Hell, Steve and Jonathan had more of an emotional bond than Mike did with Will and El in that last episode. It was, to put it mildly, odd. I also found it odd how they decided to frame Will's feelings for Mike as a crush. I know the difference between having a small crush on someone and falling in love. I have been in both situations. Will was deeply in love. In fact, they made a reference to it in season 3 when Will says "I'm never going to fall in love" than proceeds to show he loves Mike. That scene in season 4 with the painting was devastating. To not address that at all in season 5 and change the narrative that Will's feelings for Mike were just a crush is really depressing. With that said, I think bylers are being way too hard on the Duffers overall. They created a show that had several great seasons and a lot of great memories. Claims that they are queer baiting are also not founded. The Duffers are not homophobic nor were they trying to lead audiences on. Quite frankly, I think they just got lazier with the writing overtime due to a loss of enthusiasm for the show combined with the fact that Netflix executives wanted them to go bigger every season, creating a mess of a story. I don't think the Duffers ever intended to spend this long on the show, and issues like Covid and the Writer's Strike didn't help matters. They also did give us a gay superhero at the end of the day, and a mostly happy ending for Will (even if it was done poorly). The byler community will always have fan fiction I guess.
Noah Schnapp does not support genocide or mass murder. Seeing so few queer people stand up to defend this kid from these blatant lies is really disappointing.
Some thoughts about Stranger Things (minus the finale, of course)
I was going to stay away fom the Discourse on here about Stranger Things, but I found that I really, really wanted to write this. In part, I think it's because I'm an older queer person, by the standard of this platform, at least. In part, it's because I spent ten minutes in the Stranger Things tag after I watched Ep. 7, looking for gifsets, and all the discourse made me so sad and upset, when this show has given me so much happiness. It took fandom discourse to put a dent in that, and so I want to talk about a few things, so that those ten minutes can stop haunting me like something Vecna would pull out of my head.
Much of the fandom argument I saw was about Will's coming out scene. I watched it, and I cried. It was so beautiful. Some people were angry because it didn't happen the way they wanted. Some people were angry because they felt like it was unnecessary and detrimental (and maybe that's true in some way in 2025, but it absolutely isn't for a show set in 1987. More on that in a minute.) Some people were upset because they felt like Will came out under pressure or through fear, but I didn't read it that way at all.
Let's address the 1987 question first. Remember that even with all of the supernatural hell these teens have been through, for someone who is gay, it is smack in the middle of the AIDS crisis. Gay people were told they were going to hell, that they deserved to die from AIDS, that it was God's judgement on them for being gay. Why do you suppose Will spends seasons so terrified to say anything? Why he doesn't let even a little bit of that out until Robin? Why it eats him alive for years? Because everything around him, culturally, tells him that he is sinful and perverted and damned for daring to love another boy, and that if he dies, he will deserve it for being such a sick individual. All of those fears he sobs over during the coming out scene *are so real.* They happened to so many people. People lost whole families and communities after coming out. They lost jobs. They were refused housing. All of those fears are so powerful in Will's mind, and Vecna is determined to use them against him, *because they were all real, in history.* And almost NO ONE had a coming out like Will's, where his closest friends and family embrace him unhesitatingly, where they all reaffirm that he will be loved and cared for. Almost NO ONE had that.
Is it any wonder I cried so much?
It should be said that the Byers' family and the Party's response to Will is very much a product of the last forty years of fighting for queer equality. It is very much the response that we would hope for and expect *now,* and that almost never happened *then,* and the Duffers know that. Of course they do. (They're younger than me by just a couple of years, so they won't have lived in the middle of it, just as I did not, but I'm sure they know. I certainly do.) They are giving Will those minutes of beautiful affirmation and support *because they want that for him.* Because *that's how it should have been,* in 1987, and never was. (I'm sure they wanted to give that to Noah, too. More on that as well, in a bit.)
Robin is an important part of the portrayal of '80s history, also. A lesbian, slightly older than Will, who supports him, listens to him, befriends him, loves him just the way he is, and shows him that he can be happy and healthy as a queer person. I saw another post on here that pointed out all the ways lesbians supported and cared for their gay friends during the AIDS crisis, and that is absolutely true. They did, and they were crucial to the queer mutual aid networks of that time period. So many queer people lost their biological families, so they made their own (and to a large extent, that's still true). I loved all of the Robin and Will friendship this season because Will needed that, so badly. He needed someone to tell him he wasn't a terrible person, wasn't evil, wasn't wrong for existing. Jonathan has always done that for him (and I love their relationship as brothers so much), but Robin isn't Will's brother, or his family, and she didn't have to befriend him or support him or care for him, and she does anyway. That's *so* important. I also love that she has Vickie, that she can be that healthy model for Will, and that Vickie isn't afraid of who she is, either. They *don't* live in terror, and that's so important for Will to see.
Now let's talk about how and when Will comes out, because there was a *lot* of discussion about how people felt his coming out was pressured, that it came from trauma, that all of his fears and the upcoming battle with Vecna forced him into it. I don't think that's what was happening, at all. We saw Will finally tap into his powers in "Sorcerer," and when he's taken again by Vecna, he says that Vecna was making all of his fears real in his head - watching his family leave him, watching his friends drift away. He doesn't want Vecna to be able to do that to him again, and so he tells the truth about himself, and his family and friends *take those fears away.* They tell him that they will always love him, that they will never leave him, and so when Will goes with El and Kali, he can face Vecna knowing that he is loved, and that any vision of abandonment Vecna conjures up is a lie. Will came out for himself. He came out because he needed to acknowledge the truth of who he is, face his fear, and know that he was still loved unconditionally, by so many. He can face Vecna now with that love in his heart - not fear, not self-loathing. Just love. And we all know that is the source of his power. He has his mother. He has El, who loves him like a brother and who is his Wonder Twin. He has Mike, and Max, and Lucas, and Dustin, and Jonathan always. He has Robin, and Steve, and even Erica. He has a *family,* both biological and chosen, who will love him forever and go into hell and back for him, and he needed to know that, down to his bones. *That* is what the coming out scene was about, for me. As well as about giving Will a beautiful moment of affirmation, and about writing hope into a decade that was often hellishly hopeless for queer people.
I came out in the early 2000s, and by all measures, my experience was pretty easy. *Wildly* easy, compared with my spouse's experience and those of some of their peers, who came out right around the same time Will does, in the late '80s. They knew earlier in life, and had earlier significant others, and some of them had absolutely awful experiences. My parents were shocked, and it took them some time to adjust, but they didn't hate me. They didn't put me in therapy. They didn't tell me I was a terrible person. They voiced their worry over what it would mean for me, but also their love and support, and they were glad I was happy. My extended family was supportive, if not the most vocal about it (except for my Nana, who was in her eighties at the time and overjoyed for me, and ready to fight anyone in the family who wasn't supportive enough by her standards). But it was still incredibly stressful, and scary, and there were a lot of tears. And I still lost a dear friend, one who I still miss. She didn't like that I was queer, didn't like who I was with (the same person who later became my spouse), and didn't even invite me to her wedding. And sometimes I still think about the girl who was my dear friend, and I still miss her, and it still hurts. I still would have given a lot for that beautiful scene of support that Will had, for those unhesitating affirmations and vocal declarations of love. Even though my family was mostly supportive, it took some time, and it was still very difficult.
I would never want that for Will. The Duffers didn't, either. And I am 1000% sure that they didn't want that for Noah, and that Noah didn't want that for Will. He has poured so much of himself into Will, and he *came out* during the show that made him an international phenomenon, and I can't *imagine* how stressful that was, even with the family support he received. He has made Will into this character we all love, who is so extraordinary, and we got to watch Will face his fears, have his family's love reaffirmed in the best and most important way, and see him come into his full self. And that's so incredibly beautiful. (And you can bet everything in your wallet that it's going to matter in the finale! Will is a sorcerer. His powers are innate - and they just got so much stronger.)
On a final note: It is also incredibly important that, in this political moment, the Duffers decided to have not one, but *two* queer characters be so visible and so important, and have such beautiful moments *together* as well as individually. We are (back) in an anti-queer hellscape of a country, in a way that has the potential to get just as bad as the '80s were, and be just as terrible for queer people if we don't fight back, and Noah and Maya and the Duffers and the entire ST cast basically just gave every anti-queer bigot in this country a two-fingered salute. We should be celebrating that, not criticizing it. Representation matters. Stories matter. And so do the voices of powerful people in our culture, who are refusing to capitulate to the Orange Menace and his goons.
Overall, I liked the coming out scene. And that is ok if you didn't. We can interpret media differently. I think what some people see as structural problems with the scene are analyzing the scene from the lens of their own biases. Homophobes think it is out of place quite frankly because they don't like gay people and don't want to see them on the screen. For bylers and more general supporters of the queer community, many don't like the scene because it is not how they would have come out (to a large group, with strangers in the room, etc.) or they don't like that the queer character went through such trauma and felt pressured to come out or they don't like fact that Will told the room that he doesn't think the person he loves reciprocates his feelings. However, this is a story with dynamics that are not like a typical world experience. Will felt forced to come out, but this is part of the plot. Vecna manipulates a person's psychological weaknesses. Will felt in the moment he needed to shout it to the world and face his trauma. In many ways, having strangers in the room is brave. Will doesn't care anymore who knows that he is gay. This is another way to interpret the scene. Finally, this could possibly be setting up Mike's coming out to Will since Mike sees his friend group has no problems with it (although this might not happen!). Overall, I felt the scene was well acted, emotional, and well shot. I can't say the same for every scene in that episode, but I really liked the coming out scene. It brought tears to my eyes. The online backlash against this episode, quite frankly, is borderline hysterical.
I just want you all to take one second and imagine what it feels like to be Noah today.
The absolute humiliation, guilt, shame, etc.
You all contributed to that. Will Byers is FICTIONAL. Do I love him endlessly and wish he had gotten everything he deserved? Yes. But Noah Schnapp is the real gay person behind this scene, these episodes, who poured his entire soul into this season and this scene.
The fact that you’re willing to band together and fight for the fiction and not the reality is just…beyond fucking abysmal, man.
Seeing Stranger Things popularity suddenly drop over one episode over a gay character coming out to friends and family I think is a wakeup call for the left and the queer community. I really thought the world was starting to move past this, especially in the Americas and Europe. I really did. Stranger Things is a show about the marginalized and outcasts. One of its main characters was so obviously framed as being queer in season one and has so obviously dealt with this struggle, yet so much of the general audience, to my shock, has failed to pick up on the importance of this aspect of the plot, and they are now turning on the show following this character coming out of the closet. I have to say I am also disappointed with the left, the queer community, and the byler community for not defending this scene and why it was a necessary part of the plot. Sure, there were too many characters in the room when Will came out and other smaller issues like the timing of the scene, but at the end of the day, solidarity matters. Noah, a gay actor, poured his heart out into the scene, and it is now getting trashed across the media landscape. Stop denouncing this scene and start pushing back against this right-wing populist reaction that seeks to strip you of your autonomy and basic political rights and shove you straight back into the closet. This is what Trump's movement is seeking to do. They clearly will not stop with the trans community. They want to erase lgbtq+ existence from media and social life more generally. This is much bigger than whether or not byler is end game. Start pushing back.
I did come out to a small group of college friends (five people), but they were all very close friends that I love dearly. I didn't invite strangers or my middle school science teacher, lol. I did get as emotional as Will though. Cried my eyes out. My friends sure as shit didn't respond with "me too". Noah killed in the scene, but the Duffers failed him big time with how it was structured. Can't have a coming out scene that is structured like a press conference.
I wanted to perhaps give a more optimistic spin on where the Duffers might be going with the final story and byler. I think most of the criticism of Season 5 Part Two, and the series more generally, is warranted. I want to first go into the potential positives of where the story is going though, at least as far as the relationship between Will and Mike is concerned, go into the negatives, and end on what needs to happen in the finale for the story to be salvaged
First, let's look at the positives. We still have a two hour plus finale left. On top of that, the character arcs of almost all of the other characters have been completed. Lumax's story has been completed, and the long triangle story between Nancy, Johnathan, and Steve is over (mercifully). Dustin's personal narrative arc has been completed as has his relationship with Steve. The narrative in terms of explaining what the upside is has also been completed. What this means is there is a lot of potential time to go into the relationship dynamics between Mike, Will, and El. Mike's character has been ignored thus far pretty much across the season, but there is a chance that Mike will finally take center stage in this last chapter.
The second positive has much to do with Will's character. Yea, the way he came out was clunky and awkward in terms of where it was placed within the plot, but let's look at the positives. Will Byers as a character was practically ignored in seasons 3 and 4, and his personal struggles with queerness were not taken seriously by the Duffers. In Season 5, we got Will as a main character and his sexuality along with his other struggles were the center of a story. We got an arc where Will developed a wholesome relationship with another queer character, came to except his sexuality, used it to tap into his powers, and then came out to his family and friends. This is the most watched series in the world currently, and we have positive themes of accepting the LGBTQ community. Sure, there were many things I didn't like about the coming out scene. Too many characters in the room was part of the problem as was the timing. Ideally, the show would have needed to give Will the time to come out to his friends and family members individually, but we have a show with too many characters and too little time. It was squeezed into the plot awkwardly. At least though the audience was told that Will was gay and that his friends and family accepted him.
The third positive has to do with Will and Mike's potential relationship. Yes, many Bylers are angry that Will now thinks that Mike does not reciprocate his feelings and is now trying to get over it. Referring to it as a crush is perhaps Will's way to cope with his love interest not reciprocating. However, there are unfinished aspects of this plot. Oddly enough, Mike and El have not engaged in a single bit of behavior that really indicates they are still a couple. They haven't kissed. They haven't even talked about their romantic relationship. The two serious conversations they have as it turns out were about the WHOLE party moving away from Hawkins and not just El and Mike. Mike referred to EL as a friend. It is possible they have already broken up. Furthermore, they have not yet brought up the painting lie, which still needs to be addressed, and I'm sure Mike and the rest of the party are going to be interested in who Will's love interest is. Perhaps Mike previously thought he never had a chance with Will, and Will's coming out opened his eyes to the possibility.
Of course, though, all of these potential positives hinge on the fact that the Duffers address these issues. This brings me to the negatives of this season as well as the show overall.
There are way too many characters and plot threads, and not enough time to hash them out. Each season, many characters have been given too little to do. In seasons three and four, Will's character was sidelined. So was Mike's in season five. The Duffer's decision to make everything bigger from the number of cast members to the intricacies of the supernatural plot has meant a tradeoff of quality for quantity. Many characters have gotten short changed and there are way too man exposition dumps that have gotten worse over the course of the series. It has also created many plot holes. If the Duffers still decide to go with Byler, it will no doubt be rushed. This story needed more time to breath. Quite frankly, even if Byler is not endgame, they needed more time to deal with Mike's feelings towards EL and Will.
There are ways though for the Duffers to address this. They can in the final episode provide the audience with a two-minute montage to show that Mike's feelings for Will were always there just underneath the surface. This can be a way to make it seem like the plotline was always there. They will also need to have a conversation with El mirroring Jonathan and Nancy's conversation that their relationship was born out of trauma and not built on healthy foundations based on mutual interests. Since this concept has already been established, it can be used to always justify El and Mike's breakup as well. Finally, it seems like Will is headed towards being possessed again by the Mindflayer/Vecna. Perhaps this can be used as a way for Mike to break Will out of his trance by showing him that he loves Will romantically. The power of gay love can then snap Will out of his trance, and he subsequently overpowers the Mindflayer/Vecna. Mike can thus become a central point of the plot again and Byler can become endgame.
I am not sure though that this is the direction the Duffers are headed. It is easy to be pessimistic. Perhaps the story will end with Will's self-acceptance, and he won't get together with Mike. The Duffers have also made a lot of bad writing decisions, particularly since season three, that have created a very messy story. However, there are a lot of positives. The Duffers have also created a story with so many entertaining and emotional moments, and a story of a queer character becoming a hero at the center of all of it. I'm at least happy Will wasn't ignored this season, and they took his queer arc seriously. Seeing Noah Schnapp grow as an actor over the course of the season was also a joy. Look at Noah's coming out scene from an acting perspective. He had me tearing up. To have a young gay actor play a gay character in such a big series meant something. To see a young actor who probably developed acting problems due to a decline in self-confidence (much of it due to his sexuality) rebound in such a dramatic way this season was also amazing to see.
Anyway, I think it is important to look at these positives. I am worried about the mental health of some of the folks in the Byler community. There are a lot of beautiful things that came out of this show. Even if Byler isn't endgame, it was awesome meeting people who have similar experiences to myself and see themselves and their childhoods in Will's character. The fan fictions all of you wrote are just as real in terms of art as Stranger Things as a streaming show is. This show helped me and many of you out there process our sexuality and place in society, and for that, I am forever grateful.
Power Outage is a good fan fic, but check out to Hell and Back Again: To Hell and Back Again - Chapter 1 - perexcri - Stranger Things (TV 2016) [Archive of Our Own]
