Just throwing my opinion in about the deleted scene. It is more important that Pod's dong scene (funny but pointless) but Pycelle secretly spending years pretending to an old man (which is never brought up in the books if I remember) just adds more complication to the plot for absolutely no reason. However the Tywin fishing foreshadowing works well
Hi anon.
I don’t know what’s so complicated about a man who pretends to get ahead, and the man who has caught on his tricks. Reasons and leverage were explained in the scene, so.
And Pod’s scene wasn’t funny. What was the funny part about it, did I miss anything?
VIEWER RATING: Boring, but with some funny moments.
READER RATING: Major writing issues.
FAVOURITE PERFORMANCES:
IMPROVED PERFORMANCES: (*1)
FAVOURITE MOMENTS: Tywin and Olenna's negotiations.
Overall this episode was a snooze-fest.
Probably the worst episode this season has had so far. The writing for this one was dreadful.
Unnecessary scenes saved by two entertaining and well performed ones. Some funny moments were thrown around that saved the appeal of a couple of scenes.
EDIT: Had to add that the art department worked amazingly on this episode. The details at Riverrun, during Sansa's scenes, and Tyrion's were beautiful, outstanding, and very well take care of.
(*1): I don't think Paul Kaye was giving a bad performance before, it's just that I felt in this episode, he gave the best of his abilities, and was able to reach the audience with it.
Point by Point review:
1- Sam the Future Slayer:
High hopes that this scene was preparation for Sam The Slayer.
Please D&D! I don’t like you, and if you were ever to read my thoughts on your show, you probably wouldn't like me either, but that’s not the point. Please make it happen, give Sam the chance to show his worth!
The scene in general was good. I liked it.
I think it was sweet, built the relationship a bit, and allowed a few lines to reflect the NW’s life.
Acting:
I liked both actors.
-I’m usually not a fan of Hannah Murrays’ (Gilly) mouth breathing acting, but I don’t think she was bad.
-John Bradley West (Sam) gives his character the exact same feel his book!counterpart has, so I’m happy with his portrayal.
2- Vertical Limit:
I’m definitely not happy with the way the show has constructed Jon’s storyline this season. And I’ve said it before.
I think the complete lack of focus on the wildling culture, the languages, the traditions, the survival, is in fact shrinking the richness of the characters, and certainly from the storyline in general. The beginning of the season looked promising on those terms, when Jon approaches Mance’s tent, and passes by kids, and people doing their chores, playing, or simply preparing a meal, and they topped it with a giant, which gave a sense, even if piddly, of what the culture is about, and who is Mance. After that it all went south (ha). Nothing else has reflected that, and Ygritte’s tales don’t really give the same impression.
Unfortunately half of the season has passed by and I don’t think they can recover from that. Even if they make a grand closing to his storyline.
Here I’m going to separate the scenes:
-First we’ve got Jon and Ygritte talking about crows, cunnilingus and betrayal:
I guess I don’t have much to say about it, it was ok, and I still prefer Rose Leslie leading the scenes, rather than Harington.
Both actors were ok, I found nothing amazing or off putting about their acting in this episode.
-The actual climb was ok too. I think I’m more fascinated by Tormund in the scenes than anyone else.
-We've got to cut them loose:
I think this part of Jon’s scenes was the best one. It definitely added a little bit of tension, and excitement to the episode, that much needed it.
As I was watching I couldn’t stop thinking about that bad movie “Vertical Limit” that had a scene of the sort, not really related, but it made me laugh. (I find my own ways to have fun with it. Lol)
The scene in general had good CGI, the actors were good or ok in it. And it seemed a lot different than what any actor has had the chance to do so far, camera tricks and CGI included.
3- The visions take their toll:
I like they are taking the time to include some Bran scenes.
Somehow they managed to add a cliche in it, as short as it was. I personally find it ridiculous and a pretty tired trope to pin women against each other for no reason.
For acting matters:
All the actors were ok. I found no problems in the scene, and Art Parkinson at least got one line.
Ellie Kendrick (Meera) made her debut by delivering more than one short line.
4- Red woman visits the Brotherhood:
When reading about this change, I personally thought the choice was a little out there. But after seeing it, I have to say I actually liked it.
I understand the purpose of it, even if some details are quite overlooked and taken lightly.
As much as I would like the show to follow and take care of details, they're not gonna, so basically this is the smoothest way they can actually accomplish the change and don’t step on a near future plot hole.
The scenes were somewhat good.
Mostly I liked the interaction between Melisandre and Thoros, and Dondarrion’s place in the moment.
Again I have to say the high valyrian made the scene a lot better. Maybe it’s a false sense of improvement, but I can’t personally be disuased of considering the line delivery of many actors a lot better when they work with another language.
I thought Melisandre’s vision to Arya was a great touch, given what happens to the character later on. “I see a darkness in you, and in that darkness... and eyes that will shut forever”. Seemed perfectly added, and it shows they actually know something about the source they are basing this show on.
My only complaint about it, would have to be Arya’s out of character reaction. If someone was taking her friend by force, Arya wouldn’t just try to set him loose. She would go batshit crazy and start swinging her sword or hitting them or fighting off. If you are going to mention something about the future personality and demeanor of a character, then show exactly what the character is like now, show what are her reactions to a situation like you are showing. I get she couldn’t have possibly done anything to persuade them to set him free, or even force them to, but she didn’t try hard enough, and that’s not Arya Stark. This is an on-going issue I see with the show. I said it before for the Hound discovers Arya scene, and it repeats itself now. There are little things that added can make a huge difference, for the characters, for the actors, and for the drama of the scene.
On acting terms:
I think all actors were on point with their performances, particularly I was a lot happier about Carice Van Houten’s (Melisandre) portrayal. She was lot more in control of her own performance, she didn’t use cunning stares to convey her character’s traits, and seemed a lot more nuanced that anything she has done before on the show.
Richard Dormer (Dondarrion) and Paul Kaye (Thoros) were as well, given their share of the spotlight in this episode, and they took advantage of it.
The scene had funny elements that were done with very good timing, allowing the more serious and soul pouring parts of the scene to take place as well. And all of that needs to be recognized as a merit to the 3 performances in the cave scene.
For the rest of the scenes in Arya's storyline, I have no complaints. I think the actors were good.
5- Guess who?!:
I personally find these scenes hard to watch. They are well done, I like the performances, and the dialogue is well constructed.
About the performances:
I liked both actors.
I think Iwan Rheon (Ramsay) is not quite what I imagined Ramsay to be like. Yes, I think he has the crazy psycho part under control, but at the same time Ramsay seemed like the kind of crazy psycho you needed to be afraid of, very afraid of. Rheon doesn’t scare me.
His performance was good, I think he can really achieve that face that shows amusement at the pain and the torture he’s providing, yet, I find him more annoying than scary.
6- Trading trouts for alliances:
Finally Robb Stark is owning up to his mistakes. I like that once in a while they get him right, they give him the mistakes and the victories he deserves.
Somehow when Talisa is out of the picture, the scene gets a lot better when the same players, but her, are around.
I’m not happy about the change of tone given to the BlackFish and Edmure’s relationship.
The Blackfish was told more than once in his life, to get married and have a family, he refused, and that’s why he understood his nephew, he knew the situation and how much pressure was placed on him, just as Robb understood it wasn’t something he should ask, although he had to. The dynamic between the 3 characters has changed with the adaptation, and that produces a lot of problems with the storyline.
Cat on the other hand, was a lot better than that. She wouldn’t recriminate her brother for not accepting a forced marriage proposal. She would advice him, make him see the important things in the situation, and speak from her place and her own experience.
Edmure finally ends up deciding to say yes, because it was the best thing to do, and he understood the situation his House and his family was at. Which is probably what the scene tried to convey at the end, yet it left a bad taste in my mouth about it.
The scene in general was ok. However I disappointed they are only giving Michelle Fairley one line per episode lately. It’s a shame.
About the performances:
I liked all the performances, Madden seems to have improved, but my favourite has to be Tobias Menzies’ (Edmure). I think his performance gave the scene a better tone, and allowed one little comedic moment, in the middle of tension.
7- Jaime and Brienne’s amazing adventures:
Again this week their scenes are one of the highest points of the episode. I found it to be quite well orchestrated, well written, and with particularly character driven dialogue.
There’s nothing not to like in this scene.
On acting terms:
-Nikolaj C.W.(Jaime):
Has an ease to play this side of Jaime. When he has to be a sassy and superior Lannister, he gets to have fun with the performance, and he works a lot better with it. Yet he manages to show fear and concern in his eyes, and proves he has been working around the details than don’t make his performance a complete success.
-Michael McElhatton (Roose):
This actor embodies the role.
He’s doesn’t have the creepiness about him, that motivated uncomfortableness when reading about the character, but I think he does a pretty good job.
Great part of his performance is the line delivering, and he works with it accentuating that skill with a tone of voice that gives the character different elements that will make us remember him.
-Gwen Christie (Brienne):
Has an ease for her role, as I said before. And she’s quite in control of her performance.
8- Sword swallower through and through:
I’m a sucker for nasty and backstabbing conversations done in political correct ways!
I just loved this scene!
It was all out in the open, and yet they managed to keep themselves in their positions and investitures.
The scene itself brings solution to many changes they have introduced this and the previous season, yet it makes them write themselves into a pit, they won’t be able to come out at some point.
Willas and Garlan will have to be mentioned or brought to the show, since without a doubt Loras will have to end up in the Kingsguard at some point. Not to mention that if Loras would have been the heir of HighGarden, then for sure at this age he would be married and have tons of little heirs to secure the Tyrell legacy. And wouldn’t be partying at KL, he would be at home and getting ready for his future Lordship.
I don’t know what's their plan, but they continue to substitute bricks with mud to keep a house on its feet.
On acting terms:
The scene was superb! I could go into details, but in cases like this, is better to watch than to read about it.
9- Sansa and her stereotyped fiance:
Sheesh I find no need in making Loras a stereotype of the gay guy in medieval times.
I don’t find it funny, or even necessary. So, is there really a reason why this scene existed, even if it gave Sansa some sort of screen time? I personally don’t think so. Maybe it could have been reduced to a simple image and moving on to the following scene.
On acting terms:
-I think Finn Jones (Loras) is not much of an actor, and even as funny as his face looked, I just can’t think the production would have suffered much if the actor would have been replaced by someone else.
– Sophie Turner (Sansa): I have no complaints about her performance. She certainly is superior to her costar in this scene, by miles of flower gardens.
10- Two new weddings= no happiness:
I found problematic the need to clean Cersei’s hands for her actions and decisions.
What I love about Cersei is that everything that is on her way of happiness, needs to be removed. She plots, she conspires, she commands people to do what it's convenient for her. She’s not a good person, she doesn’t make excuses for it, and that’s the beauty of her as a character.
Blaming Joffrey for everything, doesn’t show Cersei’s lack of control over him. It shows she has her hands clean, and Joffrey is in fact as smart as she was in the books to remove players that bother him in his game. Which he’s not, and he can certainly be considered a despicable brat child King, without attributing him other people’s crimes.
I don’t care about Joffrey here, I care about Cersei, and how that changes who she is, what she does, her wits, her power, her OWN game. She has her own game in all of this, and by remvoing her actions and giving them to her son, they are simply undermining the character and the importance she has in the game, in the story, and in the relationships between her brothers and family in general. Not to mention the prophecies were a good reason to consider her course of action here. (Clarification: Of course Tyrion thinks Cersei is the one that sent someone to kill him at battle, and there are lot of proofs on that, since in her POV Cersei herself says something on those lines, and Varys told Tyrion that's what he found out. Joffrey could be another that sent Moore to kill him. IMO Cersei had more reasons and advantage for doing it).
On acting terms: I found no problems with this scene.
11- Awkward news delivered by wrong messenger:
I have to say I would have preferred the news given to Sansa by Cersei, like it was in the books. I think that would have allowed the relationship and the traits of the characters to be exposed, as well as it would have given the actresses a great scene to work with, and to show their worth. Not to mention it would have allowed the audience to see Sansa’s strength in the situation, and how it was forced to her. It would have showed that when nothing is there to be done, Sansa doesn’t fall and break down, no. She puts on her dress, marches in front of the sept, and does her duty.
It’s a real pity. It could have been a lot better.
The scene was ok, though it got cut when it actually had potential to extract the best from the characters and the actors. Oh well...
On acting: no complaints about it.
12- “Chaos is a ladder”:
As much as I appreciate Littlefinger opening up his schedule everyday, for a couple hours, to stare at the Iron Throne, I just don’t find it amusing.
I felt these scenes and his monologue were less than needed. Everything surrounding the scene was unnecessary, and with that I add my discomfort towards the image of a brutalized and sexualized murder. I guess I’ve spoken my mind about it, and if you need to read more then you can catch it here, I just don’t have the patience to go over it again.
On the other hand, is probably the performances of Turner (Sansa), and Hill (Varys) the ones that save the scenes, that had no need from top to bottom, to exist.
13- “It’s the cliiimb....”:
I swear to you I was expecting Celine Dion to start singing at the end of this episode, solidifying in that way the love story between the crow and the wildling.
It’s always nice to see a couple in love will make time to make out, even at the edge of the Wall, after escalating and barely catching their breaths.
It baffles me to see what Jon’s storyline has become. Another “love story” no one asked for.
The books had better dynamic and better chemistry between both characters. The show, in my opinion, was able to expand the parameters of that relationship a whole lot better on season 2, but now they have undone themselves, and gotten back into a flattened and simplistic approach towards the characters and their relationship.
It feels very rushed, choppy and anticlimactic.
With the proper screen time, for the relationship, and the storyline, they would have made a great difference.
The scene is general was ok. I found the CGI, and the embellishments of the scene beautifully done, and that definitely made the scene a lot better and probably another of the highest points of the episode, adding a little risk and excitement to it (referring to the entire climbing scenes).
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but isn't Tyrion the heir to the Lannister house anyway? Jaime is in the Kingsguard (or not?) so that eliminates his title and everything doesn't it? And Cersei cannot get it because... Not being sexist but it goes to the sons first then the daughters, so Tyrion by law should get it.
Hi anon.
Yes, he is. He is the heir to everything Tywin owns, giving that yes, Jaime is in the Kingsguard, and Cersei comes after the 2 of them. It’s just that Tywin doesn’t want to give him his rights. He resents and doesn’t approve of his son. He doesn’t think he’s worthy of the Lannister name, and everything he does it’s not worthy for him.
Tywin has no one else to name as heir. He wanted to leave it to Jaime. But Jaime can’t inherit it now. I really don’t know what was the point of Tywin’s denial (I mean I know, I get it, but at the same time there was no way to avoid it).
And Cersei wasn’t his favourite either. Without spoiling anything, there comes a point in which she would be the heiress, which would infuriated Tywin more or in the same amount.
Well, in all honesty, there's nothing logical about Show!Robb Stark at this point. They might give him that last inch of stupidity and ill advised move before the end.
I don't think their pulse would tremble to write more crap for the character. Robb's reason to legitimize Jon would go out of the window, and maybe he will do it just for ~love!
In general, if Rickon and Bran are not dead for the world, that sets up a HUGE PLOT HOLE. Nothing they will do after this makes any sense at all.
They might go in a complete different direction then, cause I don't see it ending well if they don't cover up the problem now.
I just assumed, at some point they would go with the original plot line. But previous anon raised a pretty tricky and spicy question there.
And I think the same about Tyrion and Sansa.
Maybe they'll do it because Tyrion needs to be wed to a proper Lady to inherit Casterly Rock (HAHAHAHA). Or just maybe to punish Sansa and marry Tyrion off, so he will stop whoring around.
Idk, seems very sketchy, if they don't give proper motivations to that storyline.
have u been asked about Tywin's acting? I like him but I just might be a sucker for his voice... it's awesome
Hi anon. I don’t think I have. So, let’s see…
I think Charles Dance is a good actor. I have, unfortunately, watched other things he’s done, which were not the best, not for his acting, but for the quality of the project in general.
I think he possess a lot charisma, that he translates onto the parts he plays. So, a role like Tywin, suits him perfectly. I think he’s quite a great casting choice, and seems to embody the power driven character, perfectly.
I don't think he's had a bad moment on the show. He hasn't at all. He gives a steady performance, and frankly I think he has the ability to be consistent, so his character is well represented on the show.
I listed him as one of the good actors this show has, for previous seasons. And he continues to have a spot on that list.
Yes, I definitely think they are going to try to change the tone of the situation, placing Tyrion under better lights.
But, your theory is pretty much how it goes, the second part anyway. <BIG SPOILERS>Tywin forces Tyrion to marry Sansa, Shae is Sansa's handmaiden. Tyrion and her continue their relationship, until the purple wedding happens. The fault falls on Tyrion, who is held prisoner for it. Tyrion escapes, finds Shae at Tywin's bed, strangles her (for speaking against him at the trial, under Cersei's instructions), and finds Tywin at the toilet, and kills him for rage for what he had done to him.
Basically it goes like that, and Shae's involvement with Tywin, was never explained, but it's easy to asume she did what she had to to survive (From sleeping with Tywin, to speaking against Tyrion trying to save herself from Cersei's threats).
I think making Shae jealous of the situation (your first theory), would make Tyrion more of a victim, and not justify Shae's actions later on. It's different if she sleeps with Tywin because she had no choice, from sleeping with him just for revenge. I wouldn't like that. I actually like Shae, and hope they don't screw her up because of Tyrion.
