#anti bb

[captaindarksword]

this shippers man (reupload)

Posted in r/RWBYcritics by u/froppy124 • 126 points and 66 comments

man when someone starts at their conclusion anything can be twisted into supporting evidence

yeah to go with the above yeah if they succeed it will just damage the characters and the writing of the story. forcing a ship just damages the story for them and the other charactres

Yeah, I was about to say, uh wasn’t this moment her gawking at the BOYS not Blake?

In fact right after she DOES meet Blake in this scene, and sees she’s more interested in her book than making friends YANG scoffs and says she’s “a lost cause”.

Meanwhile it’s RUBY who stayed and tried to befriend Blake on common ground of loving books.

I’d say this scene was more LADYBUG than Bumblebee because of that. But of course it was not a shipping moment AT ALL, but hopefully you understand what I mean.

The funniest part is that I know multiple people who do like Bumbleby who actually believe that Yang fell in love a while after this scene. But according to this person, they are still homophobic. Not because they don't like the ship, but because they interpret the "wrong" moment where a character discovers their feelings for the first time.

[chartreusevermillion]

At this rate, I actually hope people start cancelling their preorders. The book will come out anyway, so why bother giving BB money when they don’t give the fans anything? And changing covers again, are you serious?

[megashadowdragon]

According to Sheena, Monty wanted to push gay love triangles.

I'd mentioned this in the stickied thread as well I think, but this to me came off as a conversation that must've been held in pre-productio

I imagine his idea for a fan driven ship or a love triangle involved ruby Weiss and jaune because he likely imagined we would automatically ship jaune and Ruby due to them being the main guy and girl

the way I say no to the idea of the fan driven ship being blacksun was the fact that blacksun isn't fan driven it has actual basis and set up in the story ( its akin to renora it got years of teasing mutual attraction and development since v1 ( while bb got nothing till at best v6 finale ( they aren't inherently romantic but you can say miles and Kerry intended for it to happen

but in v7 it went straight to practically dating

( I have to be honest I saw bb shippers try to argue that if you saw renora v4 finale moments as romantic you have to see the v6 finale moments as inherently romantic but that's not the case

renora was flagrant from the start

there is subtle differences between their moments like renora plane scene being just them with the song about nora's love for ren in the back and doing the lay head on shoulders in contrast to Blake and yang scene where Blake felt bad and yang put her hand on Blakes in a way that could come off as supporting/comforting Blake ( to reciprocate Blake support to her when her hands shook in front of Adam.

while renora scene was private Blake and yang scene was part of a team scene.

@laserdog10

@commanderkurama

@awest66

the reasons everyone were saying Bumblebee was basically canon in volume 6,7 were the exact same reasons people were saying the same thing about Blacksun in volume 4 and 5.

[kitkatopinions]

One of the things that many anti-rwde posters get really worked up about is the complaint that bumblebee is rushed, but at least for my part, I feel like there's a misunderstanding on what the real problem is.

They always say "how can people say that the ship is rushed when there were signs early on?" And I think the real problem isn't that there weren't signs. Tbh I personally don't read Blake as romantically interested in Yang during the first few seasons, her treatment of Yang isn't actually that different from her treatment of her other teammates and whatever closeness they accomplish is usually initiated by Yang, but it's easy to read Yang as having a crush on Blake. It's easy to read a lot of characters as having a crush on other characters, like it's easy to think that Ruby had a crush on Weiss, Blake, Penny, and Emerald during different times in the first three seasons, and like it's easy to think that Yang and Weiss were romantically interested in each other specifically in season five. I wouldn't think any of those ships 'came out of nowhere' or 'didn't have any juice' or so on. My main point here is that Blake and Yang weren't a forgone conclusion, but yes, despite the fact that nothing was clear solid proof of romantic interest OR clear solid proof of early writer intention to actually make them canon, there were hints that Blake and Yang could potentially turn into a real ship and it eventually did when the writers got around to it under criticism of queerbaiting and while running out of money.

When I say that I think the ship was rushed, I don't mean that there was never an indication that Blake and Yang might be romantic before they got together or even before their first big significant 'shipping moment' at the end of V6. When I say that I think the ship was rushed, I mean that the writers bypassed growth and working through conflict that I think was necessary for Blake and Yang's dynamic. When I say that I think the ship was rushed, I mean that they invented conflicts just to throw them out one after another without ever addressing it on screen. I mean that there are things very important specifically to the character of Blake like her time in the White Fang, her family, Ilia, and Adam that Yang hasn't talked to her about on screen (except Adam but it was not in any detail.) This isn't even bringing up the fact that they were forced into confessing their feelings for each other and when that happened, Yang didn't say anything about Blake that was true past her being a Faunus. Which makes it seem like the writers don't care to put in effort with the ship but that's just my opinion.

The ship between Blake and Yang wasn't rushed because 'there were never any signs' that it might happen, it was rushed because the writers didn't actually put in the work to deal with the conflicts they themselves wrote for the ship and just bypassed them instead. It was rushed because they went from 'Blake has spent seemingly a year apart from her team while Yang was angry at her the whole time and now the two are awkward with each other' straight to 'they barely leave each other's side, Yang gets angry at the thought of even doing a mission apart, they're in love, they caress each other's faces' without the writers really addressing that quick change.

It's got nothing to do with whether or not I think Yang's 'save me a dance' could be an indicator of real romantic feelings that would get developed later. The writers just fumbled the bag on execution, per the norm.

[chaoslordjoe]

Here's an Uno reverse card mental exercise for Wasps. Send yourself back to Volume 3 in the leadup to the Battle of Beacon. What would have happened after Yang accidentally broke Mercury's leg? During Blake's line, "but you're not like him", and back when she was more clear about criticizing Yang's brutality, was this any indication of her developing feelings for Yang? And after Beacon was destroyed, was there any indication that Sun intentionally was trying to stalk Blake? Say it with me now…

NO!

The answer to both of these questions is a big fat resounding 'no'. The reason Blake is less critical of Yang is because of, even if they're unintentional, they have clear and present allusions to the common argument that Bees is Tauradonna 2.0 due to how post-Beacon saga Yang is a control freak and barely interacts with her own goddamn sister. And even if Sun had intended to stalk Blake on her way to Menagerie, there was no indication he meant to follow her maliciously, even if it was setup that way since apparently a new outfit for Sun, something less flashy is too much for RT's fucken little brains to comprehend, let alone hire a new concept artist for.

And even if Yang wasn't a control freak, she still would have made a shitty girlfriend due to her own commitment problems which have been a big factor from the mission to defeat Salem.

[the-path-to-redemption]

hiiii i'm here with my last anon message (❀´ ˘ `❀)

i don't think i'll finish RWBY for the time being... i'm halfway through volume 9 and my head is spinning ( ꩜ ᯅ ꩜;) this is just like An Oriental Odyssey, but from the USA!

both:

* have pretty solid writing for the first half and clear expectations, then goes crazy

* develop ok ship only to tear it apart

* main antagonist is bad because their lover died

* many plot twists without any foreshadowing/contradictory foreshadowing

* purest character dies twice and comes back from the dead

* starts as magical realism but SUDDENLY MAGIC!! WOWIES MAGIC DOES EXIST??

* love triangles

* canon ships are bad and the notion of love is twisted and abusive

* fans of the work treat you like an idiot because you don't understand the brilliance of the work

* no subtlety at all

* characters not growing and falling into the same pitfalls

i was halfway season 5 when i realized (˃̣̣̥ᯅ˂̣̣̥) i was cheated!! but i immediately thought, "well, the writers must be young too" then i checked and they were way older than me!! .·°՞(˃ ᗝ ˂)՞°·. double cheated!!

what can you expect from beginner writers... but the designs... _(:‚‹」∠)_

i guess Adam's death didn't shock me (i saw spoilers...) as much as how bad the pairings are!! when Renora started showing signs i had to take a break by reading two whole mangas before going back to it. i thought we finally had good girl/boy friendship!!（ꐦ𝅒_𝅒）what do you mean Ren raised her and they're both in love but Ren doesn't speak his feelings for some reason so Nora had to force a kiss on him?! everything was too creepy!! ‎

(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ ┻━┻ didn't we have enough with Jaune and Pyrrha?! and suddenly Blake starts slapping Sun around... Bumbleby is ok but i thought this was a sapphic show!! where are my sapphics?! (╯'□')╯︵ ┻━┻

i could rant about many things but the general vibe i got was "ah, everything feels very creepy and cruel somehow" since season 4. i don't know how to explain it... i felt like i was seeing hell for the characters besides the actual problems (•﹏•;) it might be my trauma from An Oriental Odyssey but who knows...

either way this will be my last anon message ♪(๑ᴖ◡ᴖ๑)♪ i need a break from RWBY... i want to do fanarts, but i'm still too shocked (￣◇￣;) thank you for reading my messages and accompanying me through this odyssey journey!! ⸜(｡˃ ᵕ ˂ )⸝♡₊˚⊹♡ if i come back, i'll definitely come back with a blog!! ദ്ദി ˉ͈̀꒳ˉ͈́ )✧ stay strong friend!! wishing you good health and lots of money and love!! (´▽`ʃ♡ƪ)

Hello again!! It's so nice to see you, anon! Please take your time if you're coming back with a blog, and take care!

Long Post Ahead

I have not seen An Oriental Odyssey, but I might actually check it out now just to see because I enjoy xianxia/wuxia lol. But from what you said, I will be keeping a low expectation for the series if it shares that much similarities with RWBY.

I will also say that I'm personally fine with darker topics being explored in fictional work; my only requirements are that they're portrayed with proper research and with content warnings so that I know what will be included in the narrative (Banana Fish and Scum Villain's Self Saving System are two of my favorite series, with both containing very dark topics). In the case of RWBY, dark topics such as abusive relationships and cruelty in dynamics were not only very sloppily written, the writers refuse to even acknowledge how bad it is along with the FNDM (eg. Blacksun and Renora).

There's a lack of accountability when it comes to how they portray such topics, and even expecting us to think of it as a good thing without even giving us a choice to decide that ourselves. The writers blamed their animation team for the slap when criticism of it arise, and continues to not take abuse very seriously outside of the caricature portrayal of such things with Adam.

And yes, the writers are old enough to know better. They've been writing this series for more than ten years, which should have given them enough time to grow as both creatives and people, but I've also learned that age does not always equal maturity. M*les himself has once said a racial slur against African Americans when he was 26, and called the character Tifa Lockhart from the FF7 Remake game a prostitute for the way she looks and dressed, even though everyone knows that she is the primary inspiration for Yang. With such a person on the writing team, let alone leading it, it's no wonder a lot of RWBY's morals feels extremely juvenile and lackluster.

The matter of age when it comes to creating things aren't always attached to age, it's about how dedicated the creators are to their projects, which RWBY has not been for quite a while now.

Moving onto the matters of ships and their dynamic, yes I was disappointed with Renora as well. Just a correction though, Ren didn't really raised Nora; it's more like they took care of each other when they lost their families, with Ren taking more responsibility for them while Nora supports him emotionally. However, the relationship starts to sour (for me at least) was when Nora lost her emotional maturity and intelligence to basically invalidates Ren's turmoils. Forcing him to talk when he's not having a good time, forcing a kiss on him, then proceed to blame Ren for the relationship falling apart even though he tried to be rational in a crisis. She became extremely nasty as a person that I don't want to see her near Ren anymore for his own well-being!

This isn't uncommon in RWBY... every relationship (romantic or otherwise) are very shallow and disappointing. It's even worse when it comes to LGBT+ romance, because RWBY did not start or continued as a sapphic-friendly show. Blacksun was baited for years, until the writers saw that Bumbleby brings them more traction despite having very little believable hints that these two would ever be in a relationship with each other, even if you don't look at the very problematic elements of it (again, I don't mind such ships, I just dislike how these two are heralded as "cute and good" when the foundation of their romance is so toxic and they're stripped of their other personality traits).

Sapphic ships in RWBY (or just LGBT+ representations in general) are either for marketing purposes or shoddy afterthoughts. The writers were never going to treat such representations seriously because they themselves do not treat real life LGBT+ individuals with respect. If you go into the research of how Rooster Teeth's queer employees are treated, you will find the account of Kdin Jenzen being abused, hate crimed for being trans and fired by the company without aid. You're better off watching The Owl House, or even any queer manga out there.

Thank you again for the ask and reading my ramblings haha. Whatever it is you do going forward, I hope you have fun and stay safe! If we do meet again, I look forward to seeing your art! It was fun, and I wish you an abundance of wealth and love as well! Bye bye, anon! <3

[lunatriense]

I think my problem with a portion of bees content is how a lot of it is mainly centred around Yang

It’s always stuff like “Yang brought out the best out of Blake” “Yang sacrificed herself for Blake!” “Yang is the energetic butch and Blake is the submissive femme”, not to mention bees art sometimes has Blake built like a pencil and constantly has her making “cute catgirl faces” and Yang is really tall and is constantly making angry faces

It does just show how okay this fandom is with white saviourism (and catgirl fetishism bc yikes!)

Can people pls just Google what a butch is for the love of god!

Yeah, it's pretty disgusting. They've totally changed who both Yang and Blake are for the sake of the ship, and both have suffered for it. Yang is femme, she always was. Blake is def not submissive, her whole deal was being a firebrand fighting injustice! But that's all gone now, and yeah, they really focus on Yang somehow saving Blake. And often faunus in general, nevermind that she's openly displayed her racism.

[redsanji]

citing the genders involved of a ship has always been a bad argument same sex ships shouldnt be defended just because they are same sex ships

saying but korrasami is the only same sex ship in lok or the first one is not a valid argument for korrasami.

korrasami is a bad product thrown in at the last minute at the cost of breaking the narrative forcing two people who were barely friends and barely interacted together.

(there was plenty of time they could have shown being close in b4 but that didnt happen ( i am not talking about a kiss) and while mako supported korra and talked about korra as a person asami failed in helping her

in the last two minutes korra was ooc

there have been too many times where a show gets defended because the decision they made was " progressive" where a ship gets defended because its same sex and they cite the genders involved.

Its funny how many times I see it either with bb or with korrasami where they claim if you dont ship it you are homophobic that you dont care about the lgbt community if you dont support korrasami " the only same sex ship in lok/first same sex ship in animated show involving an mc.

when they are the ones who try to cite the genders involved when ever they try to talk about korrasami/bb or defend it from criticism and try to attack the person attacking it by claiming homophobia.

especially with bb since if anything they are the ones who attacked blacksun for being a m/f ship and calling it forced due to being het

( I have seen them go but there are tons of feasible f/f ships and yet they are teasing the main girl with a guy when I am sorry but it doesnt matter if there are feasable same sex ships the writers arent obligated to make that happen.

and that just points to the idea that their only issue with blacksun was sun being a guy since they had to cite the genders involved.

that was the first thing they cited

(

and in bb's case they repeatedly made accusations of homophobia if you didnt see evidence for bb or acted like if you shipped blacksun instead of bb it was just because sun was a guy .

(its funny they shipped bb when the trailers first came out while blacksun only began due to their observed interactions in v1 which hinted at romance ( suns introduction was a lowmotion

Sun’s wink is accompanied by a slow-mo pan of his expression, followed by the camera focusing on Blake’s slack-jawed attention, along with a literal choir singing in the background while she stares at him. This is his introduction— to Blake, but more importantly, to the audience. This is the first moment we properly meet him, and it’s through this very particular gaze.

and we see sun actually helping blake ( while yang didnt interact with blake until v2.)

seriously do you not understand ship wars are a thing in every fndm

them jumping on the homophobia accusations seem to be them convincing themselves that the only reason someone could oppose that same sex ship was not liking gay people.

They think that because there arent that many same sex ships anyone who is okay with lgbt rep would support any same sex ship being canon or that its immune from being forced

someone can be gay and still support makorra over bb

no ship deserves automatic support just because of the genders/identities involved

nor does the genders involved mean you shouldnt oppose the ship

in a ship war between a m/f ship and a f/f ship saying the m/f shiip should have happened/had actual evidence not the f/f ship ( saying its a forced last minute retcon etc)

isnt homophobia or not caring about the lgbt community the point is about the writing

it doesnt matter that getting rid of k/a means there arent any canon same sex ships in lok

supporting a ship between two white people over a ship between a black man and a white woman isnt automatically racism it means you feel the other ship makes sense

jumping on the racism accusation is just a cheap tactic

I feel like when it comes to ship wars where there is a difference in identity between the two ships

like one ship being a same sex ship and the other being. A het ship

they either genuinely convinced themselves that anyone who would support a ship which happens to be m/f over a ship that happens to be f/f and say the f/f ship has no actual evidence etc

can only be doing it because of homophobia rather then because they don’t see any actual evidence and like the ship more.

or the accusations of homophobia are just a cudgel /shield for their ship where they try to protect itself from criticism and attack critics.

(In a situation where they threw in a ship in the last minute retconning stuff etc and this ship happens to be f/f it doesn’t matter if it’s the only same sex ship that isn’t a reasoning to support it there doesn’t need to be a canon same sex ship what the story needs is good writing. A ship shouldn’t be defended for meeting a criteria

and they try to make the you would ship it if it was a m/f ship but that’s often baseless accusations while there is evidence they would have supported the m/f ship of it was f/f given the times they complain about the genders involved

Or one ship