@starrology101 Sansa’s going to end up with two grown men who assaulted and harassed her because they’re ugly?
I'm just
not counting this was in reply to a post I wrote in 2021 and like... it's been two years whatever but not counting that if you read it you missed like the entire point and I'm not gonna get into it again but like
nor tyrion nor sandor have ever assaulted or harassed her, like sandor lit saved her from a mob and didn't beat her when joffrey ordered it, tyrion actually tried to stop that and after he was also forced to marry her by his father (when he absolutely did not want to either but hey that wedding was apparently coercitive just on one side??) he made a point of not having sex with her when technically it was within his rights so like........ dunno where you got that notion but that shit didn't happen in either books nor show so idk what to tell you
blackwater being assault is like..................... if you see it like that you can but he absolutely didn't do anything to her, he was drunk, he left and she thinks he kissed her when that never happened so like again everyone is free to be as uncomfortable with blackwater as they wish and I absolutely will not be the person saying you have to find it romantic or suck it up or whatever but it was meant for it to be what makes sandor want to get better and she romanticized the shit out of it after make out of that what you will
'two grown men' tyrion in the books is 24 and sandor is like 27 and no way sansa gets with either of them before wow which means she'll be at least 16 which makes it an entirely reasonable age gap within westeros customs and norms like lit no one thinks sansa should have been with either of them in the actual canon so you do you
'because they're ugly' my pal idk how to explain it anymore when it's obvious in the text but grrm has a thing for beauty and beast narratives, the entire point of that trope is that one of the two isn't stereotypically good looking and certainly that ain't sansa out of whoever else it is and sansa in the beginning thinks marrying a pretty guy is the bee's knees and then the narrative goes like 'yeah all the pretty guys you thought were great are also horrid people inside' and in this kind of narrative the point is realizing that what you thought was a+ in the beginning isn't what you actually want/need so yeah two **ugly** guys that everyone treats like shit because they're not standard attractive and have trauma and so on will be more likely endgame options for sansa's bc her entire shtick is falling in love with someone who's **ugly** outside and not so much inside which neither sandor or tyrion are so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
idk if you read the books but all of sansa's asos chapters + affc ones are her basically thirsting after sandor and convincing herself he kissed her first so she can like tell herself a narrative where *she* picked the guy who was her first kiss and so on when everyone else is basically exploiting her and fucking littelfinger took that like............ that's basic romance novel 101 idk what to tell you take it up with grrm not me
tldr: sandor or tyrion (not both) are the only two characters that are viable for sansa as love interests looking objectively at the narrative, you don't like that go take it up with grrm but I can 100% assure you that either of them is way more likely than the guy she thinks is her brother and is the only one of her siblings she wasn't close to while she was the only one of his siblings she wasn't close to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
My Giant Anti-Jonsa Hate Post, AKA why a person might not ship Jonsa other than hating Sansa :P
I'm warning you ahead of time, this is mostly me rambling. I'm not smart. Lots of smart people you can read, go read them.
So, I've noticed this tendency amongst some Jonsa shippers to sort of dismiss any criticism as Sansa-hate. Sometimes they are actually correct, some people only read ASOIAF in order to see Jon as a typical hero and any female character as simply the reward Jon gets for being a hero, which is so weird. There is a similar feeling that the biggest reward a female character can get is Jon's dick, so, um, yeah.
Having said that, I have a lot of reasons not to ship Sansa with Jon outside of how my ego feeds into my reading. I have read pics with them as the pairing, tbh, if you're a Sansa fan you kind of get pulled into it just because it's so hard to find ANY fics where Sansa gets treated decently that I just treat Jon in those fics as an original character.
I will now list my non-jonsa feels, in no particular order.
I do not believe the text supports it.
A lot of smart people have dug through the text and pointed to what they believe are clues. I'm not going to go through all of these because some of them are, IMO, a reach so far that the proponents have hired a gibbon to do the reaching.
One of those that kind of makes me super perplexed is the whole Jonnel/Sansa thing. Shippers will point to that as some kind of sign that their ship will sail, but honestly, I do not think so. Or at least, I hope it's not a portent of Jonsa.
Jonnel Stark and his plot line with the original Sansa seem to have more in common with the modern story of Alys Karstark and her flight from her uncle and cousin, who attempted to usurp her claim to Karhold by forcibly marrying her.
That is to say, it's a dark, sad story, made all the worse by the fact that Sansa eventually died, and she and Jonnel never had issue. In fact, Jonnel didn't have kids with his second wife, either. Possibly divine punishment for usurping and marrying his niece, IMO.
Most of the other "Jonsa" foreshadowing, I'm sorry to say, seems similar to that, basically. Either it's a sort of retelling of a completely different event happening in the present, or it's a sort of a weird, long reach. Like the idea that the comet is meant to foreshadow Jonsa, which is, honestly, so weird it's laughable, or pointing to times that Jon has complimented Sansa's looks. Some people even try to fit the Bael the Bard story to Jonsa.
It doesn't seem to fit with the how the text treats incest, in my opinion.
Much is made of the show's revelation that Jon and Sansa, despite being raised as and considering each other siblings, are biologically cousins, what with the revelation that Rhaegar kidnapped a teenaged Lyanna Stark and murdered her through reproductive abuse. For a lot of people this makes the incestuous aspect of the text "not count"(which is annoying for other reasons I will discuss later).
I just don't think "they're actually cousins" really works here, either, though.
GRRM sort of seems to use incest as kind of a shorthand for corruption. The Targaryens are the main example, their inbreeding a symbol of their incapacity as humans, and Craster is a giant screaming red flag but there are other incestuous marriages that seem to operate as symbols for the people involved, most notably the elder Lannister and Stark marriages.
The marriage of Tywin Lannister is an interesting sort of backdrop for the Lannister family as a whole. Joanna is often regarded, in both fandom and the series itself, as a sort of softening influence, a better version of Cersei, the true queen of Casterly Rocks, whose relationship with Tywin was very normal and healthy.
However, when examining Tywin Lannister's serious case of narcissism, I find it very unlikely that he would be capable of anything resembling normal in a marriage. It seems likely to me that his love of Joanna was more likely based on the same thing Cersei and Jaime's relationship was based on, AKA a damaged, narcissistic monstrosity. The marriage, IMO, was based on the fact that Tywin was attempting to emulate the elitist principles of the Targaryens. Only a Lannister could match a Lannister, in other words.
Then we examine the children of this incestuous union. I don't think its a coincidence that Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion are as fucked up as they are. The example they have of a relationship is fucked up and incestuous, so it wasn't surprising that the twins emulated it. And Tyrion being Tyrion is also not shocking. Joanna may have demanded a place for him, but how much of that was motivated by love, and how much by a similar narcissism to Tywin and Cersei's, the idea of the child as the extension of the self.
But, @brydeswhale , I hear you say, because I have audio processing disorder, what about the Starks?
Well, tbh, I'm pretty sure the Lyarra/Rickard thing being incestuous was an afterthought, another way to mirror the Lannisters, but I do not think they're intended to be an example of incest done right. Rickard had some pretty weird obsessions of his own, if certain people are to be believed, and Lyarra is a near non-entity.
And while their kids seem to be, well, less fucked up than the Lannisters, it's still worth noting that two of the four are dead, of the two survivors, one dedicated himself to ensuring his family's full isolation from the rest of the country and the other joined a penal colony full of slave soldiers dedicated to what amounts to a border patrol that, whatever its origins, seems intent on enforcing an economic and cultural barrier to a random set of ethnic groups beyond the Wall, so good job there.
And even when Brandon and Lyanna were alive, well, no fault to Lyanna, she seems like a good kid, but Brandon was apparently an antagonistic dick and, well, he doesn't seem to have been very respectful of women.
Incest almost seems like a code in GRRM for "something is very wrong here and it won't end well, even for the innocents" and I just don't see him choosing to go against that.
As an incest survivor, the lightness with which the Jonsa fandom treats that aspect of it is messed up.
I don't tend to talk too much about my past as a CSA survivor, but yeah, there is it is. It kind of weirds me out, DOESN'T trigger me, just weirds me out, how casually the ASOIAF fandom treats incest bc, um, yeah, its not really casual. I feel like GRRM treats it with a great deal of gravitas, but fandom kind of skips over it, which is weird.
The "Real" siblings stance is obnoxious
There exists, within fandom, a tendency to devalue families outside the biological family.
It's not specific to ASOIAF, don't get me wrong. It's the same thing that had people giggling over Thor's defensive "he's adopted" or talking about which Robin is "the real son". It also lends itself to pairing in those fandoms based on those same ideas. It's not incest, after all, if they're not really related?
This might seem like small potatoes to some people, but the problem with this is that it's also a problem outside fandom, and it's something I've dealt with my entire life.
See, my family also isn't "real" according to this rule.
I have foster siblings, step siblings, half siblings, so on and so forth. I have siblings I'm almost completely alienated from, siblings I love more than life itself, and siblings who are ex-siblings, pining for the fjords, kicked the bucket, bought the farm, blah, blah, blah.
So to hear people talk about how Jon and Sansa aren't real siblings because of the complexity of how their relationship came to be, how close they are, whether or not the moon was full when they met, is actually kind of hurtful.
It tells me something about the people using this trope and what they subconsciously think of my family. How "real" we are to them, and how much we matter. It kind of makes me think we don't really matter, that because we don't share DNA, we don't count.
Also:
Jon is one of my least favourite characters and Sansa can do better.
To Be VERY VERY clear:
I'm not saying don't ship them, don't read it, etc, etc. If you want to, it's up to you. Like I said, I read it sometimes, just because it's so ubiquitous. I have plenty of pairings that other people might hate, or think are immoral, etc. These are just my feelings, tbh.
I just think dismissing all criticism or even plain distaste for this ship down to not liking one character or another, or whatever, is kind of messed up. There are lots of valid reasons not to like a ship, and it's worth considering all of them.
i don't know what crack these bitches are smoking. assholes like that d*sneyprincessbuffyannesumemrs always used to butt onto dany stans posts and show her illiterate ass, that joke of a sideblog t*llystan reblogged posts from arya stans and picked fights with everyone till the bitch went back to her main w her fucking tail bw her legs; hacks like that j*nstarks make anti dany gifsests and post them under the daenerys targaryen tag pissing off even non dany stans w her behaviour, all of them have multiple slavery apologist and victim blaming posts, other ones like that dumbass deadlilly posted under the arya tag and when people replied to him he admitted he did it to rile people up. one of these assholes keeps copying posts from our side and pasting it onto the jonsas' and cultists' askboxes so they have a chance to act all appalled and talk about something whenever their CaNoN jONsA ENDGaMe sHiP evidence starts weakening. FOR YEARS the bitches have stolen arts and quotes and reworked their metas to say "oh no its actually Nonsa foreshadowing" and now they are acting as if ppl were talking about stealing metas from dany/arya stans 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡 and after making threats and insulting ppl on multiple posts like that s*yrugg clown keeps doing they acts like victims and poor little meow meows We DiD Not dO AnYThiNg WE StAy In OuR cORnER Of thE FaNdOm we just wannabeleft aloneeeee
What I appreciate about our side of the fandom is that despite Jonsas (and certain other big bloggers) acting this way many times, we have never had a need to repeatedly attack people or tag them to start arguments based on lies. I remember when GoT ended and Jonsas used to tag Dany stans in posts with her death scene and needle them and mock them for not listening to their "predictions". What's funny about their predictions is that the main reason they came up with those hateful theories i.e. the Jonsa ship was never canon, and was refuted by the cast and showrunners point blank. These people forget, that with every new development on the show, they had to rework their theories to fit their endgame (which did not come true anyway lmao Jon didn't fuck Sansa like they wanted and these shippers .... flew off the handle and started harrassing BNFs on other platforms with their "Jonsa evidence"). For years, Sansa stans have hated Arya to the point they created "neutral intellectual blogs dedicated to metas" with every. other. post. being anti Arya or taking themes from her storyline and claiming them for both Stark sisters. These blogs used to support all sorts of characters like Jorah and Viserys to shit on Dany and call her an immature little teenage girl. Jonsas took these pointers and ran with them, worsening the takes and with them, the fandom. When the show started going downhill and Arya started licking at the flavorless caricature's feet Sansa/Jonsa stans suddenly started being all Stark Sister UwU and making art about both girls being supportive of each other, forgetting, that they made up theories where Arya would die and warg into Nymeria and Sansa would get her sister's direwolf which would serve as her bodyguard while she sang and harped her way to a position of power. In short, they are liars and will never admit to it, and such toxicity will only attract more idiots to the fandom. We can't do anything about it, because apparently even defending characters is harrassment and triggers these people.
I think the thing Stansas really don’t get about their needlessly convoluted theories, is that these books were written to sell. They have to appeal to a mass market, and that isn’t going to be done by GRRM setting up the ultimate romance with triple hidden, super super super secret codes and messages. Whereas his books do include foreshadowing that can be picked up on on a reread, the books need to be enjoyed by a reader the first time around, which means ships like J0nsa cannot be built on clues and messages that can only be found after traipsing through the text with a magnifying glass.
There's one thing that I don't exactly understand about the Jonsa ship (there are many other things, but still), and it's that Jon saying that Sansa "looked radiant" when she was next to Joffrey, and they say that this implies Jon was "jealous" of him and that he had some kind of "pre-canon" crush on her. "Radiant" doesn't have anything romantic behind it, and Catelyn used the same kind of language when speaking of Lysa on her wedding day to Jon Arryn.
It's really weird because this is one of the chapters that George wrote *before* the original outline, and the original outline used Jon and Arya as being the main vehicle behind Jon's secret parentage. Now, I've seen some say that they were not sure if Arya even looked like the current Arya, but the first chapter of Arya's depicted the marked visual difference between her and the rest of her siblings, and George confirmed this was one of the earliest chapters he had written (in 1991) in an interview with Rolling Stone lol
