#antisylkie

[charliewrites99]

Obsessed with the creator liking sylkie tweets only to do nothing with them.

Truly the first straightbaiting I ever experianced.

[ramrage]

Why I Don’t Like Sylkie: The Post No One Asked For

i don’t even care about sy/lkie being “selfcest” because fuck it, the morality of it is rather grey and even if it wasn’t, i ship thorki so clearly i do not care about such things (in a fictional context, dear god not at all in real life). I don’t fuck with the ship because it never was compelling enough for me to understand it, let alone support it.

I can't help but look at any of Loki's relationships without Thorki tinting my lenses, so in seeing s*lkie unfold, I was making comparisons between the two ships without even intending to. What drew me to Thorki was the delightful little character dynamic of foils that are bound together by something greater-- in this case shared history and mutual love (what sort of love that is is entirely up to you, likely non-existent reader). So many fanworks highlighted these diametric differences and leaned into them, but also showed what deep connection can come from those dynamics when underpinned by love. Fanworks typically showed Thor and Loki as still needing each other and complementing each other despite their differences, though. You can't just put two opposites together and instantly have a compelling ship. Loki, at his core, is insecure as hell and seeks out security in Thor's solid, (typically) unwavering affection; in simply being around someone who is the epitome of their culture's ideal, someone so self-sure. Conversely, Thor seeks out Loki because he's *not* the cultural ideal--he's cerebral, mysterious, rather entertaining tbh. Both characters work to reel each other in, to sort of temper the effects of their respective character flaws. This isn't to say that they don't clash, but when they come together in the end, it drives home the profundity of their love.

To be fair, I also enjoyed the ship because MCU Thor and Loki are sexy as sin (to me).

As for S*lkie. What draws these characters together? Off the bat, they're "the same person"--I have opinions on why this is a shit take, but that's for another rant. The basic, basic, basic psychology on self-esteem I learned in college brought up an interesting little notion--someone with healthy self-esteem has something of a "soft spot" for themselves. "feeling a sense of warmth towards oneself" or something in that vein (too lazy to go back and check my notes for the exact phrasing). To be honest, this could be an interesting foundation for a relationship, but it seems misplaced for a *romantic* relationship.

 Nevertheless, I could see hints of that in how Loki and Sylvie viewed each other, though it seems overwhelmingly more of thing on Loki's part (see: train conversation scene). I've seen people say that Sylvie didn't ever feel that way about Loki, only acting the part for the sake of manipulating him (which I guess is a valid enough take. Aside from that gotdamn kiss, Sylvie didn't seem too *into* Loki, didn't really act in a way that showed she wanted him. I'm sure others will disagree on this point, and I encourage them to because tbh hating on ships has its fun... clearly). So, this sense of warmth in seeing oneself is teetering on the edge of validity. Then what else makes this relationship *work* (read: be compelling/believable)? It can't really be the complement dynamic. Sylvie and Loki are dubiously similar, but even so, their strengths are kind of the same. They're both outcasts, both a bit sharp, both evasive, manipulative. The main difference between their characters is their ability to trust each other, which is sort of compelling, but not compelling enough for me, so that's my problem. They don't inherently have any vested interest in the well-being of each other, in seeing the other's objectives get met. The driving force behind this ship imho is that Loki is written to like her. Perhaps he admires that she "has conviction" whereas he has been told he doesn't (Loki mentions to the Loki variants that she's better than all of them, himself included, the TVA echoes this sentiment, but I feel like we were never shown/told *why*. My memory is garbage so I may be objectively wrong). Not sure why else he's really drawn to her. We never got any statement of "damn, that's a fine piece," which I guess I would accept because at the very least, it gives reason to the rhyme, but we probably never will because in context, that sounds like a goofy ass thing to say.

The ship seems something like a placebo pill. There aren't really any active ingredients in it, but we're made to believe its effective because it's a pill given to us by scientists, and scientists wouldn't give us useless pills, right? This ship clearly is good and makes sense because we wrote it and it exists in canon so it *has* to be good. But looking at it, even without glasses, it falls apart to reveal that the only reason it exists is because someone said it did or should. The placebo only works because we trust that its creators wouldn't give us sugar pills posing as antidepressants.

I'm not one for good conclusions okay bye!!

[raifenlf]

Why Loki’s Sylvie Is A Mary Sue

So I am firmly in the camp that Sylvie on the Loki series was/is a Mary Sue.  The last episode made me feel better and like maybe the show was doing a thing where they were faking you out that she was a Mary Sue only to show she was actually sort of a bad guy and I liked that.  But all the recent interviews make me think the show wants to go back to her being a Mary Sue.

But I feel like when I call her out for being a Mary Sue people tell me what are you talking about, she’s not a Mary Sue, bad things happen to her, etc.  But that doesn’t actually make her not a Mary Sue.  

Also, before we start, I know some people find Mary Sue sexist.  But I personally use the term for guys and girls. I don’t use the term to belittle women.  I use the term to criticize a poorly written character.

And I know Mary Sue is often used to describe fanfic characters.  But to me, this series is kind of like a fanfic because the writers took a character who had been in canon MCU material for ten years and then created characters around that character.  So, I kind of review it like I would a fanfic.  It’s very different than if the writers had created a brand new show with all of their own new characters.

Anyway, if you are not totally familiar with the Mary Sue term, then check this out:

I know the term Mary Sue probably means different things to different people.  But I have always used these guidelines when I write my own fanfic to make sure my characters never come off as a Mary Sue.

This article really gives you a full scale of what a Mary Sue is.  If you start reading it, you’ll immediately see why Sylvie is.  But I’m going to take out the parts that most fit Sylvie just to highlight why I believe she is a Mary Sue.  I apologize for this being so long.

Mary Sue Character Traits

Personality

Erm... what personality? The typical Mary Sue doesn't have one per se, because she isn't meant to be a character; rather, she's an entity by which the author makes cool stuff happen.

I feel like that is Sylvie in a nutshell.  She doesn’t have a personality.  I feel like even though she ate screentime, I still don’t really know her at all.  The writers love to say she’s badass.  That’s not a personality.  

Sometimes when I am writing stories for fun and creating new characters, I like to take surveys as my fictional characters.  Like the kind of surveys you’d see in a magazine, like personality types, what’s your dating style, etc.  I figure if I don’t know what my character would do in any of those situations, then I need to keep working on my character.  And if I was trying to fill out a survey pretending I was Sylvie I would have no idea what to answer because she doesn’t have a personality.  She’s just “cool”.

What little personality a Mary Sue has isn't as important as how other characters react to it. No matter how shy or socially awkward Mary Sue is supposed to be, other characters will be inexplicably drawn to her

This is so Sylvie.  Loki falls in love with her...why, exactly?  He falls in love with her in the big Nexus event moment...why?  Because she had a tough childhood?  Mobius spends like two seconds with her in a car and goes from hating her to saying she’s his favorite Loki.  For. No. Particular. Reason.

She's extremely persuasive; everyone finds her opinions to be better than their own

She enchants Hunter B-15 and then immediately Hunter B-15 makes it her whole entire life mission to back Sylvie up.  

And occasionally she'll be a complete asshole...This can manifest itself in several ways...The author wants to write a badass but doesn't know how. This leads to a character who mistreats everyone around her and is never called out on her abrasive, casually abusive behavior.

Sylvie talked down to Loki and treated him like garbage for all of episode three, but it was never portrayed as a bad thing and we never got any impression Sylvie later felt bad for the way she treated Loki

The author doesn't know how to hold back the character, meaning that she will succeed at practically everything. This means that when she encounters rules or authority figures who would otherwise prevent her from doing what she wants to do, she rolls right through them (and they praise her for her "boldness" in defying regulations). If a bad guy is violent and aggressive, she can beat him by being more violent and aggressive (with all that entails). It's impossible for her to go overboard because she's protected by Protagonist-Centered Morality.

Sylvie is shown as a kid to immediately be able to grab a Tempad and run away.  And she can kick ass way better than Loki, for no known reason.  She is always able to fight back against the TVA when they attack her.  And she can kill lots of innocent TVA agents but it’s okay because TVA bad, Sylvie good.

Skills

She will always be superior to the canon characters, regardless of what canon has established they can do or whether it makes any sense.

Whose skill was needed to defeat Alioth?  Sylvie’s.  Of course.  Sylvie needed to teach Loki her skills in order for him to succeed (!).  And again, she is literally called the superior Loki.

Relatedly, there's no effort to her skills. She never actually trains or learns anything to become more powerful; she just wins the Super Power Lottery, or is a freakish natural learner, or is just Inexplicably Awesome

We’re told Sylvie literally taught herself magic.  She literally taught herself to enchant people.  That. Makes. No. Sense.  Like, I have so many questions.  Like, why would it even occur to her to teach herself that?  And how????????????  This is really lazy writing.

Canon Character Relationships

Mary Sue is often designed to hook up with another character, often as a form of Wish Fulfillment. This isn't that bad in and of itself (okay, it is kinda weird), but Mary Sue accomplishes this without any sense of realism. She just grabs her lover's attention straight away, and their relationship will never face any obstacles or tension; it's true love from the start and nothing else. The biggest giveaway is if the love interest is explicitly the author's favorite character, and she essentially "cures" him of all the angst that ails him (at the expense of his characterization).

Yeah, so...this one should be pretty obvious to anyone who watched the show.  Loki literally falls in love with Sylvie immediately, and then he suddenly turns from “villain” to “hero” just because of loving her.  And this was definitely at the expense of his characterization.  And Loki just knows he falls in love with her.  There’s not even any moments of hmm what do I feel for this person?  It’s just true love, immediately.

She will be related to a canon character in some way. This (marginally) helps explain such phenomena as her being a Copy Cat Sue and other characters accepting her so easily.

Sylvie is a Loki variant.  They use this to help explain why Loki is drawn to her and why their falling in love immediately “makes sense”.

Most characters give her more heed than they normally would. The good guys never stop praising her

Seriously, it was so over the top and OOC for Loki to gush over her.  He literally tells her she’s amazing.  They don’t even make it subtle.

Characters' previously established personalities change in reaction to her. Proud, arrogant gimps suddenly acknowledge her superiority in everything. Reckless youths will listen to all her advice. Responsible leaders will defer to her instead. Villains will obsess with her to the detriment of all else. Extremely competent characters will become stumbling buffoons who require her help to do anything. Sweet, mild-mannered characters whom the author doesn't like turn evil and insult her. They all become unnaturally focused on her in some way.

Again, Loki’s whole personality changed in reaction to her.  He became a buffoon who needed her help to enchant the Alioth because of course he couldn’t do anything without her!  Hunter B-15 goes from doing whatever the TVA said to fighting the TVA just because of Sylvie.

Story Elements

Mary Sue is without exception a single-person Spotlight-Stealing Squad. The entire story hinges on her existence; if you removed her, there would be no story. 

Sylvie undoubtedly drove the whole story this season.  It all became about HER meeting the TVA heads because of HER trauma.  Loki’s life was only saved at the beginning because the TVA was trying to capture HER.  And SHE was the one who started the whole multiverse (!).

Mary Sue is The Chosen One, even if the setting already has one. There are many ways she can accomplish this: she can be a Sailor Earth type who "shares" the position with the canon hero; she may be vaguely "destined to help the destined one fulfill their destiny" (i.e. do all the work except the final blow so that the prophecy is still technically correct); or the canon hero may be revealed to be a Fake Ultimate Hero all along. Being the Chosen One doesn't necessarily involve her being a God-Mode Sue, especially as authors become aware of the phenomenon and try to avoid it, but it does make her critically important to the world and allows her to continue stealing the spotlight without the "god mode" label.

HWR wanted Sylvie to come with Loki in the end, like she was chosen all along right alongside Loki.  Like one of the most important characters in the entire MCU is now this character who we only met a few episodes ago.

Most Sues have an unusually Dark and Troubled Past. It's often used to create a Sympathetic Sue, but any type of Sue can have one

They tell us, over and over, how hard Sylvie’s life was because she was kidnapped by the TVA in order to create sympathy for her.

She almost never does anything wrong. In the rare instance that she does, it's usually; (a) a way for the author to disclaim her being a Mary Sue by introducing a single imperfection (that has no bearing on anything anyway), and (b) designed to show her smarts by making her feel instant remorse, and she'll be Easily Forgiven anyway:

So this one hopefully will not come true, as a lot can change between now and when the show is taped. But if the show goes on the way the behind the scenes team is talking, Sylvie immediately felt remorse for betraying Loki, and Loki has already forgiven her and is desperately looking for her.  Ugh.

Alternatively, she is more than capable of doing something wrong, be it in general moral terms or something that goes against whatever code she abides by, and she maybe even frequently does so, but don't expect the other characters or the narrative to ever acknowledge or comment on it in any real capacity. If the other characters do call her out, expect them to be treated like they're the problem for daring to criticize her at all.

Mobius calls her out for killing people, but Sylvie immediately says he’s a bad person and then Mobius agrees, because, of course.

She will often suffer from Special Snowflake Syndrome; i.e., she has a trait or backstory that sets her apart from her group or race.

She is the only female Loki, thus making her the special one among all the Lokis in episode five.

Presentation

In visual media, the camera just can't stop staring at her.

The camera would follow her in fight scenes rather than Loki.

Mary Sue Tropes

Okay, so there are specific Mary Sue tropes that Sylvie is.  One of those is Copy Cat Sue, which I think was referenced before.

Copy Cat Sue

A lot of fanfic writers...start to write something because of their passion for this character, but they find something about the character that doesn't mesh well. Maybe they're the wrong gender or are otherwise not close enough to the author's expectations...In any case, rather than put them through the Possession Sue process, they just get a Clone-O-Matic™ and out pops a Copy Cat Sue...the character might be intended as a replacement for the canon character, but without whatever icky traits the author hates. They'll then rob the spotlight, prove the canon character to be unworthy of his/her position, and either relegate the character to obsolescence or, perhaps, even remove them entirely.

Sylvie is basically a clone of Loki, she is a variant.  But she absolutely robbed the spotlight of Loki’s, and they literally call her the superior Loki.  I mean, they are literally not even being subtle about this.  And there was a feeling by myself (and a lot of other viewers) that Sylvie might ultimately replace Loki in the MCU. 

Black Hole Sue

Much like a black hole, this is a Mary Sue who "sucks in" the plot and characters to her. Characters will behave outside their personalities, logic will be defied, and rules will be broken for her sake.

Sylvie really does suck up all the plot and Loki definitely behaves outside of his personality just to fit the Sylvie show.

Jerk Sue

A Mary Sue who is mean or maybe even cruel, but are still treated as an ideal person.

Once again, Sylvie is basically a jerk all of episode three, but you’ve got Loki falling over himself to call her amazing in just the next episode.

Relationship Sue

A Mary Sue who exists to be the perfect mate for a specific character...this character has everything in the plot conspiring to enforce this One True Pairing...in Fanfiction, they are the perfect beloved of a canon character.

They literally have Mobius speculate that Loki falling in love with Sylvie is so extraordinary that it causes an entire Nexus event, that’s how huge this One True Pairing is (!).  And Sylvie is the love interest of Loki, the only character who had been around before the beginning of the series

TLDR: Sylvie has all the tropes of a classic Mary Sue character.  So calling Sylvie a Mary Sue isn’t being sexist or just randomly hating on the character.  If you use common Mary Sue characteristics to examine the character, she just has too many of these characteristics to ignore.

[robbyrobinabitch]

This may be a ridiculous question but why do people tend to dislike Sylvie so much? She didn't really "betray" Loki until Loki had already decided that he wasn't going to stick with her plan. At the end of the day their only options were to either create the multiverse that would cause a war, or run the system that had destroyed her life, family, and world. I don't know why that would have ever been expected of her.

Well I can't talk for other people but I'm guessing people tend to dislike her because of the whole weird romance thing between her and Loki which promptly kill off her character development and also Loki's. Like she could have been so cool and great but they mostly wrote her as a love interest which takes apart most of her personality. In my opinion though, I really like Sylvie but like, whilst ignoring the whole romance thing. I think she's an iconic character and has a lot of potential yet to be explored. Technically she didnt betray Loki, you're right. Because she never actually said she was on his side, she kept asking Loki if he would not betray her and if he could trust her but she really never said he could trust her. The ending, what sylvie chose, i think was in character and one of the few good decisions for her character. Sure Loki felt betrayed by that but what would he expect. Sylvie has said from day 1 that her main goal, her mission, is to take down the TVA because they took away her whole life. So ofc she would choose taking down the TVA over Loki, a man she literally met like 3 days ago. So i was actually very happy, narratively wise, that she chose that path. So basically, I think people mostly dislike her bc of the weird love interest thing, which kinda kills her character point, and not because she "betrayed" Loki, which she technically didnt.

[supernatural-ruined-my-life]

I'm not going to watch season 2!!

Also why is Loki's fault what Sylvie did??? 🙄🙄🙄

[robbyrobinabitch]

Mobius would sing along too

Based on this post (x)

Do not repost

[sprrlnklez]

can big movie companies atleast try to hire writers who they're confident would actually write something good? this is directed at the loki writers and the fact that the waldron idiot probably hasn't even seen the damn movies?

it's embarrassing, the amount of inconsistencies is practically overflowing at this point, i just wish these writers would stop doing interviews (it's been like what, 3 weeks since the final episode, shut up already) because they all keep contradicting themselves over and over again, trying to make sense of this mess.

i realise that the script changed alot during the making of the series which is completely normal for shows and movies, but if any of the show runners were actually experienced they would at least try to talk through what they are really going with in terms of the story. they all share their opinions, fine, but they're only confusing the fans in the process and it's really grinding my gears. the director says one thing, the writer another, the composer says something different, the operator and designer say another. it's annoying. just shut up already.

[sprrlnklez]

5*lkis on twitter are actually using a #StopS*lkiHate hashtag um

that's fucking disgusting