#asoiaf commentary

[thebluelemontree]

I was looking at those old Westeros org threads and I felt perplexed by the hatred and vile remarks levelled at her (thank God for SanSan fans who never lost their cool trying to reason with these people). So, why do you think Sansa evokes such hatred?

Sexism and misogyny. So, so much sexism and misogyny. The culture at large hates preteen girls, the things they love, and the way they love them. Nevermind that there is no way for any woman to win in the patriarchy, even if she’s naturally proficient at fulfilling its expectations. That doesn’t stop her fiance from beating her up. Not all women are going to be gifted with those super cool martial skills or be interested in more “masculine” activities. Sometimes they must use other tools for survival that are available to them. But she can’t win with some of these people. She’s mocked for being weak, or dumb, or passive; however, if she becomes too intelligent and cunning, she’s also a treacherous woman.    

At first glance, she’s the polar opposite of Ayra, who most genre fans will much more easily identify and sympathize with. When the sisters clash, it’s just easier to side with Arya with some good reason. Don’t get me wrong. I side with Arya through most of these conflicts, but I don’t see it as “Sansa vs. Arya, who is better?” Their sisterhood in some ways very normal in that the elder has reached the age where being a little kid isn’t cool anymore and she wants to be more grown-up. The little sister is still very much a kid, wants to do kid things, and feels frustrated at being left behind and left out in feminine circles. The conflict is also heavily exacerbated by Septa Mordane’s influence. In reality, there’s a lot more going on in this dynamic than Sansa just being a stereotypical mean girl. Basically, it’s more of a rocky phase rather than a permanent feature of the relationship or anyone’s character. It wasn’t always like that in the past, and Sansa has matured a lot more. 

It’s funny how Jon is allowed to have moments of envy and deep resentment at Robb, but Jon’s love for Robb and their brotherly bond is never doubted by the fandom. This can also be a result of how GRRM has chosen to highlight positive aspects of male relationships compared to female relationships, where he seems to press harder on the negative. Doesn’t mean that he has written female relationships badly, just that their positive aspects don’t always jump out the same ways. I think he has improved on this in AFFC/TWOW. There’s a little of GRRM at fault, but also a lot of the fandom just devaluing or not recognizing the ways girls relate to each other and lift each other up. Example:  Jeyne and Sansa giggling and gossiping in a stairwell while they eat some strawberry pie that they nicked from the kitchen. Or when they just hold each other as the purge of the Northmen from the Red Keep is going on. Girls tend to use communication and confiding in one another to develop their bonds. While Sansa and Jeyne have different tastes, can disagree a lot, and there’s some one-sidedness there as well, there is also genuine affection to be found underlying all that. Same as Jon and his complex relationship with Robb. While I think GRRM could have been a little less subtle so the readership could pick up on the positives of Sansa’s female relationships more readily, he can’t single-handedly overcome fandom sexism with his writing either. He would have to write Sansa as a different person, more like Arya, or make her relationships overwhelmingly positive and unblemished by typical age-related conflict. If he had to do that to make some sectors of the fandom like Sansa more, that’s way more an indictment of that fandom than of Sansa’s character.      

[thebluelemontree]

You thoughts on Darkstar?

“Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.” -- Darkstar 

“Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne. You and he have done us all great harm." -- Prince Doran Martell

The Darkstar we actually saw in a fight scene: maims a little girl then runs away.

And that Doran quote is after he does the thing. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa NO. 

George is normally pretty on-point with selling on his dark and brooding “bad boys.” He even goes further by emphasizing how handsome and dead sexy Darkstar is in Arianne’s POV. George has had so many thirsty fans tell him how much they love those types of characters that you can tell Darkstar was created to be the next big tall drink of water; however, he’s is done in such a superficial way. He’s a cold boloney sandwich compared to characters with depth and complexity and who have qualities you can empathize with like Sandor, Jaime, and Theon.  

It would be one thing if he was supposed to be this douchey, self-delusional Batman wannabe on purpose and the Myrcella incident was meant to reveal that. Except George has Doran unironically hyping him up as this ominous threat still on the loose instead of the failed child assassin on the lam he turns out to be. That “I am of the night” line he says to Myrcella just comes off super cringe-y on a second read and you know what happens. He’s more of an unintentional joke than he is contemptible for what he did. George has had a pretty great batting average overall, so it’s not like anyone really holds this one character against him. If George wasn’t aware of the general reception to the character then, I am sure he is now, so we’ll have to see what he does with him.  

[thebluelemontree]

True, @ladytp​. I’ve said in the past that the unkiss is actually a pretty genius move on GRRM’s part to develop the romantic and erotic parts of the relationship by keeping the whole thing in the mind of the young protagonist. It’s totally under her control, it comes from within her, and it moves are her own comfortable pace. While the Blackwater was indeed violent and Sandor was totally in the wrong, it still falls under that “generic problematic” category. He didn’t do the thing some people want to believe he did. And GRRM wrote the unkiss at a time when they were physically separated by some distance. 

This does function to avoid a huge chunk of sexual underage problematic content from direct interaction, which could be very helpful if your intent is to sell the general audience positively on future romance. The soil you plant those seeds in can’t be overtly poisoned or people just won’t buy “the HEA,” if that’s what he’s aiming for. I should have said that George isn’t totally blind or uncaring as to the effects of certain kids of problematic content can have on the audience. It all depends on his end goals, how he feels about the relationship, and how he wants the reader to feel by the way he presents it.   

I don’t think the general audience would clutch their pearls over a Sansan endgame. That seems to be more of a concern of the tumblr and twitter antis and people who give their media the fine-tooth comb treatment for any possibility of power imbalance in a relationship (real or theoretical) as irretrievably harmful and broken. Most readers and fans are not consuming the story that way at all. Most are totally fine with the problematic stuff, or at least it hasn’t bothered them enough to stop reading. Of course, the majority of Sansan fans (which is such a massive juggernaut of asoiaf ships) would be super stoked, and probably a good portion of the fandom would be won over in the end if its sold in a relatively believable and positive way. As for the rest, Sansan may not be their thing, but they would probably be at worst just “meh, whatever” or “ew, moving on” about it. This is where I think GRRM is placing his bets. He’s not writing to please the tumblr and twitter sector of the fandom, which is comparatively tiny to the whole. 

I just have to laugh a little bit, though, at the idea that dropping the five-year gap means George just wouldn’t go forward on a romantic endgame because the underage aspect would be too problematic for him. I mean, despite what he may claim about marriage norms in Westeros, he definitely goes there with the age gaps and teen brides quite a bit. He goes there every day of the week and twice on Sunday if you add them all up. So this is the weakest argument against the possibility of a Sansan endgame without the five year gap. Then there is the other reason that scrapping all the groundwork he meticulously laid out in previous books (for any storyline) and being faced with a whole mess of changes and plot consequences just to be a little less problematic seems like a really dumb and poor trade-off. He just doesn’t strike me as the kind of writer who will care if some people get really bent out of shape about him writing (in their opinion) something that should not have been. Most of the time he’s questioned about problematic creative choices, for better or worse, his usual response is either curt or to hand-wave it away.      

[thebluelemontree]

Do you have any criticism on the bloat flat filler soap opera that was AFFC/ADWD?

Well, AFFC is actually my favorite book in the series for Sansa, Brienne, Cersei, and Arya’s POVs being the most enjoyable and interesting. The character work in this book is really strong overall. The prologue and epilogue with a FM infiltrating the Citadel are just so juicy and exciting to see what happens with that. I don’t consider this book filler at all, but a natural and necessary breather in the aftermath of the WOT5K before we pivot toward the real war. I don’t really have any criticisms for this one.

This is something other people have said about ADWD, which I agree with. Parts of Dance are a real slog to get through, but I don’t consider needing time and space to meticulously develop a plot this big and complicated to be unnecessary filler. I’d only be pissed if there was a weak payoff to it in TWOW, which I’m not really worried about. Dany’s POV, who is great to read in her own right, suffers from a somewhat less interesting supporting cast of characters if you compare it with the Westerosi POVs. The Varamyr prologue is really gripping and it doubles as an info dump for some things about warging that should pay off big time when it comes to Jon and/or Bran’s POVs. And holy shit! The assassinations of Pycelle and Kevan Lannister by Varys and his little birds should have enormous consequences in KL. Asha and Arianne are really cool and enjoyable to read, but Areo Hotah kinda sucks. Tyrion and Theon’s chapters can be really heavy and dark with few if any rays of light, so that can really be an endurance test for the ole palate. The plot at the Wall between Jon, Stannis, Melissandre, Val, Mance, and Tormund is probably the most exciting to read. The wedding of Sigorn and Alys Karstark stands out as one of the most beautifully written and memorable moments of the entire series. 

It’s not a disappointment as a book for me, but most of it isn’t going to appeal to a casual reader that might prefer a tighter, more concise plot, more action scenes, and a narrower focus on a smaller, well-defined cast of characters. Feast/Dance seems to have more of the repeat, deep-diving reader in mind who has patience for minutiae. Neither is good or bad, it’s just what you’re into and what satisfies.     

[thebluelemontree]

Do you think GRRM had ideas for an 18 year old Sansa before he removed the plans for the 5 year timeskip? It would be much easier for a romance with Sandor.

I think he ditched the five-year gap and kept at least the major broad strokes of his main characters’ arcs intact. He is a gardener, of course, but he’s also a believer in the build-up and following through. Sansa’s arc in the published books is heavily laden with themes of love, marriage, and sexual maturation. It’s never going to be comfortable reading about a thirteen or fourteen-year-old having an epic romance or wanting to have sex, but this is a real possibility. Yes, it would be a million times easier to digest if she were eighteen in the books. He intended her to be about eighteen in the later part of the story, but he couldn’t make that work with every character and every plotline. He chose story continuity and making sense over being less problematic. No one can honestly say, “well, GRRM could just remove, for example, a Sansan romance.” How do we know Sansa’s romantic partner isn’t this huge and important factor in moving the plot forward? If that’s the case, he can’t “just” remove that without having to change a significant chunk of the plot, which would then lead to having to make other changes. That’s the butterfly effect that he’s mentioned a few times, and it can get really messy.  

It’s time we all came to terms with the fact that GRRM is a problematic writer who writes problematic content, and he doesn’t seem to care what anyone thinks about that. When has he ever let criticism stop him from writing whatever he wants to write, especially when it comes to the state of young teenage girl characters in his universe? He always has the option, of course, of toning certain scenes down or fading to black, but I wouldn’t hold my breath on that.  

[fluffycakesistainted]

There was a time before the distinction and it gives me FEELINGS 😔

"He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but ‘my half brother’ since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant."

The implication of this line tho. The indication of the time, that Jon remembers very well, before Sansa understood Jon's difference from her other siblings, and simply called him her "brother", with no addendum. Then when she was about 4, 5, or 6 maybe, a new level of comprehension clicked in and she started addressing him accordingly. And what really gets me is that for Jon to bring up this turning point years later, it probably really stuck in his memory, maybe even something he still thinks about from time to time, because it probably really hurt his feelings. Through no fault of tiny Sansa's, it’s not an insult, and she was just properly applying what she had learned, and hell, she certainly didn't know 7/8/9 year old Jon already had a firmly developing inferiority complex because of his status. But he remembers when he was just "brother" to her, and then to have her switch and draw such a stark (puns!) line, that the others for some reason didn't (still used the terminology, just not 100% of the time), that had to have stung...

Especially because - and now I'm about to get into headcanon and speculation that just makes me feel all fuzzy - I bet for those first few years of Sansa's life especially, Jon and Robb just thought the world of her. I mean, they were almost the same age, were babies together, were probably raised almost like twins, all they had was each other for the first 3 years. And then not only do they get their first baby sister, but their first little sibling ever. Then for over two years it was just them and Sansa (well, in terms of siblings. Theon came about a year after she was born). And what tends to happen a lot with older siblings and new siblings, even if there's some initial new baby resentment, that goes away real quick and then the older sibling just falls in love with, sometimes even becomes kind of obsessed with their new little sibling. Sometimes to the point of possessiveness. In a cute way, lol. And I could really see little Robb and Jon just adoring the heck out of their baby sister and reveling in the novelty and "responsibility" of being big brothers for the first time. And Sansa, the first little girl child, the littlest princess of Winterfell, probably looked up to and deferred to them in kind, and equally. Until she learned there was a difference. Now, the love didn't disappear. It was transformed somewhat, delineated, and channeled in a more "society appropriate" way. But still, he remembers the years before all that, before yet another reminder of his "otherness” was added to the list, when he was just her brother, same as Robb, until their baby sister felt she had to figuratively and clearly separate them in her own mind.