#asoiaf characterization

[horizon-verizon]

Maybe this Will Put Things into Perspective about Rhaenyra & Cersei's Kids Being Bastards or Not...

Feudalism is an early period or a economic phase of a millennia-managed con against anyone who isn't a noble man, and most men are the active conmen.

Neither set of kids were ever declared bastards. Nor were they ever or "acknowledged" as bastards, because noblemen "acknowledge" a child they father onto another woman. noblewomen, in theory, can, but if their having had sex premaritally/extramaritally isn't already known outside of the household they do not. Because to do without it already being known (like with Alys Turnberry) would publicly ruin her prospects for marriage in the future, ruin her reputation, and likely muddy the family's as well.

Robert probably would have removed those kids from the line of succession had he known (and he didn't) if not outight remove them from the mortal coil. But instead, he got gutted. Therefore, Cersei's kids are not officially or "legally" bastards. That prior declaration is what is required to have them "legally" known as bastards.

Bastardry has always been more of a legal question in its nature than a biological fact of nature. Of course, we the audience and most of ther know that Rhaenyra's kids aren't Laenor's biologically; Ned correctly deduced that Cersei's weren't Robert's biologically. However, he was never able to get his information to matter "legally", or to get it to Robert to make a decision on. Whereas Laenor, Corlys, Viserys all knew and decided to maintain the boys as their heirs. And they made this decision based on the lack of knowledge the public has/what they can control. Which is often what any noble does; once again, GRRM has explicitly stated that the lords of Westeros often take advantage to twist "laws" (customs) according to the circumstances around them & their own desires, and it's is not exclusive to bastards already "acknowledged".

The purpose of marriage as an institution is entirely for the lord/nobleman's benefit. It is an institution that was created and developed entirely for a man's political interests (a father's, a brother's, a husband's, a son's, etc.). And it was made to consolidate/monopolize the noble woman's (or really any woman) body and reproductive labor so as to produce living products to pass on the resources/titles mainly the lord and his ancestors have aggregated. To try to make sure those resources are passed to the people the lord wants passed own to, the sexual purity culture imposed on women and girls works to construct shame & suppress female extramarital and premarital sexual activity, which is an aspect of her overall agency. Her agency is re-confined/socially reduced to her sexual activity because she has no other primary function nor legal privileges aside form being a wife, mother, daughter, virgin, etc. Or sometimes the protectoress of her husband's/son's assets: the castle at times of war/siege when the lord is not present; director of his household's activities and servants by being its head overseer of accounts. Therefore, the lord is literally claiming his wife as his effective property through her womb & this is often why when we see women like Daena sleeping with a man not her husband, it is an act of reinforcing her authority or political agency in spite of how she was raised to see her own body.

Think about it: why do we not have a world or society (fictional or not) where even though the wife births a child not her husband's the husband's do not willfully or are "legally" compelled to adopt that child as their own, effectively de-fathering the biological father? Because men want to feel as if they have as close to total ownership over female companionship and labor so they consolidate power to themselves and not to women. Having all these designations of gender and "bastardry" that everyone are compelled to follow makes that easier without expending energy or sharing power. Medieval customs put the social-legal identification of "bastard" from the institution of marriage, its compulsions on women, and their reproductive labor/bodies/uteruses being claimed by the men who are "licensed" to own them. Which is why when we say that neither Cersei's nor Rhaenyra's kids are "bastards" it is true *in the sense that one should not carry the sense of their inferiorty into how we see their innate value as human beings AND none of them have ever been "proven" publicly to be not their putative father's children*, because the purpose of bastardry is to attempt to reclaim the product of reproductive labor and Viserys/Corlys/Laenor/Robert have already done that. To protest about how Robert didn't know about his kids not being his kids is really to protest how he didn't not get the products of Cersei's reproductive labor in the usual male-prioritized business of objectifying female labor that is intrinsic in this feudal society. Whereas Viserys/Laenor/Corlys accepted the products of Rhaenyra's reproductive labor.

All this is also why I really don't care for the impassioned argument of these women were being "unfair" to the system (Rhaenyra) or to their husbands, fathers etc. (Cersei) or them being "liars" or "destructive". Feudalism is itself an objectifying, unfair, unequal system. It is designed to benefit men and mainly men inherently, and directly at the expense of women who risk death itself while a man fathering any sort of kid never risks death. Men lie and destroy the women who birth their children, manage their household, protect their castle, rear their children....and it is all "licensed" and justified under the constructed institutions of marriage, oath-making, knighthood and principles of chastity, virginity, the different sub-meanings of "honor" for men vs women, etc. Men are themselves already objectifying or making an exclusive economic use of their female counterparts as well as going back on their vows (a deal that is still in feudal marriages, even for men) through their socially-allowed extramarital and premarital affairs producing bastards. *Therefore, if a noble woman (or any woman) cheats, it's simply not as amoral as when a man does--it's actually sometimes brave and admirable and a relief to see bc she is taking the risk for the sake of her own autonomy and/or happiness at the expense of a system/man who would exploit or have a consistent upper hand over her, for children he may not even like (Tyrion).*

[thebluelemontree]

Alayne TWOW preview chapter: You have Sansa aware that LF is participating in a price-fixing scheme that starves the small folk & Alayne planning a 64-course feast for a Tourney in the middle of Winter. Do you think George is critiquing Sansa & LF à la Tyrion criticizing the Crown's expenses during Joff/Marge wedding? And when do you think Sansa will reflect on the smallfolk since its a theme in the other main 6 POV's. Hope this doesn't come across as anti-Sansa, just thinking about themes!

I think it helps to remember that Sansa's intention behind the tourney idea is entirely different than Littlefinger's. It was clever. The tourney, the prizes, the winged knights, it had all been her own notion. Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave. And no sooner did she tell Petyr her idea than he went out and made it happen. -- Alayne I, TWOW. Her only thought was to help an anxiety-riddled child of murdered parents feel less fearful and defenseless. Robert is able to find his courage when he emulates Ser Artys Arryn and is consequently more physically and mentally resilient. When she told Littlefinger about her idea, he capitalized on it for his own reasons. He saw the perfect opportunity to draw Harrold Hardyng away from Yohn Royce's oppositional influence, leaving Royce up shit creek without a paddle. Harrold could then be caught between Alayne's seductions and pressure from his foster mother, Anya Waynwood, to accept the betrothal plan -- something we know Sansa has mixed feelings about. While the tourney was Sansa's idea, and she's proud of that, the sheer extravagance of it was undoubtedly more Littlefinger. He "went out and made it happen." It's not just showing off. It's a calculated move to extinguish any remaining challenges to his hold on power. The Vale houses are old, prestigious, and prideful, but many are cash poor and heavily in debt. This makes them incredibly vulnerable to flattery and thinly-veiled bribery. (Some are already shown to be overtly corrupt).

Sixty-four dishes were served, in honor of the sixty-four competitors who had come so far to contest for silver wings before their lord.

-- There were gifts as well, splendid gifts. Each of the competitors received a cloak of cloth-of-silver and a lapis brooch in the shape of a pair of falcon's wings. Fine steel daggers were given to the brothers, fathers, and friends who had come to watch them tilt. For their mothers, sisters, and ladies fair there were bolts of silk and Myrish lace. This is a huge turnaround from Lysa's time as regent, whose boneheaded decisions and unseemly behavior thumbed her nose at her vassals. Here, Littlefinger is rolling out the red carpet and giving everyone the V.I.P. treatment. Framing the Winged Knights as a new kingsguard appeals to the culture of tradition and formal pageantry. The new Lord Protector may be too low of birth for their liking, but he is very, very generous with his friends. They know it's bribery, but it's being done in a way that allows the lords to save face and maintain the appearance of having honor. What I'm saying is, Sansa probably did have a role in organizing the event to an extent, but in reality, she only tangentially has something to gain from the betrothal at best. The real winner here is Littlefinger. All she wanted to do was help her cousin, and with lack of other options, maybe get to go home one day.

As you said, Sansa was privy to the price-gouging scheme with the grain. This information came out in the TWOW chapter, at the start of the tourney, and she wasn't necessarily meant to overhear it. So it's not something she's going to be able to do anything about right now, but it's assuredly important she has that information in her back pocket for later. Mass starvation and the potential for social unrest isn't quite an immediate issue as it was in King's Landing. Yes, it is short-sighted folly to have a big ballin' feast on the cusp of what's predicted to be a long winter, both thematically and in reality. There will be harsh consequences. I also think it's a big fuckin mistake to have all these people (and all that grain) gathered in one place while everyone is distracted. That setup is just asking for an epic disaster. Remember arrogant Ser Hugh of the Vale, who Sansa saw die at the Hand's tourney by a giant's lance, and the moons of Arryn sewn on his cloak became soaked with blood? Yeah. High body count coming, for sure. And the loss of that food would be a tragic blow for all of Westeros as much of that grain is sold outside the Vale as a winter staple. But it's thematically fitting to destroy that portion of it as it's tainted goods by the lords who bowed to corruption, represented in that conversation by lords Belmore and Grafton. If George is critiquing anything here, it's that it's not just that people like Littlefinger exist, it's the greater problem of non-sociopathic regular people putting aside their morals to enable them for personal gain. Littlefinger's ability to harm would be much more limited if he didn't have so many cronies. That being said, in that same scene, Sansa also hears Yohn Royce has his own grain stores, ships, and ports out of Runestone. And George has conveniently kept Royce and his resources safely far away from the Gates of the Moon. Hmm. That sounds like it might be something.

While a lot of this sounds bad (LBR, this is twow we're talking about, it's going to be fucking bad), laying waste to Littlefinger's plans may be what Sansa needs to finally escape him in the ensuing chaos. So I would say, all is not lost, anon. Sansa has other opportunities and alliances she can form outside of Littlefinger, which yes, good! She has experience from King's Landing about how not to handle a food shortage, and how good PR is a powerful tool for a leader to have (but needs to be backed by actually serving the people). The things Littlefinger has both intentionally and unintentionally exposed her to will make her a smarter, wiser, and less naive leader. Her training in organization and soft power makes her well-suited to be a logistical leader. I could see her in charge of supply trains getting to where they are needed in the coming war. I could see her sheltering refugees and becoming a great lady of the songs, who comforts and inspires with quiet courage and compassion. Thanks!

[thebluelemontree]

Hi!!i hope you're doing well while reading this!I've had this thought before, and i was curious on your opinion about what do you think makes Sandor such a good story Teller?

I'm doing pretty good today, thanks. "Why do you let people call you a dog? You won't let anyone call you a knight."

"I like dogs better than knights. My father's father was kennelmaster at the Rock. One autumn year, Lord Tytos came between a lioness and her prey. The lioness didn't give a shit that she was Lannister's own sigil. Bitch tore into my lord's horse and would have done for my lord too, but my grandfather came up with the hounds. Three of his dogs died running her off. My grandfather lost a leg, so Lannister paid him for it with lands and a towerhouse, and took his son to squire. The three dogs on our banner are the three that died, in the yellow of autumn grass. A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face." He's economical in his language. The answer to her question is psychologically complex, but he's effectively able to communicate that using simple words and a story. That's not easy to do. Good country music does this. He creates a sense of drama and danger, while also interjecting some wry humor into it. Peppers in some curse words for flavor, but isn't crude about it. Then BAM, he puts a cherry on top with a bit of poetry. Nothing overly flowery. Just a heartfelt tribute to those three that courageously gave their lives in a selfless act of service on that field of yellow grass. To him, those dogs are the epitome of true honor, and he makes you feel that. The best part is that it's a true story, not a heavily embellished fabrication of the singers. Just look at how it drips with pride, too. My father's father. My lord (a generous lord that honors sacrifice and rewards loyalty). My grandfather. Our banner. He's damn proud he is descended from that humble kennelmaster, no matter how he feels about the rest of his family. Thanks.

[thebluelemontree]

Regarding the following quote from Catelyn I, ACOK:

“She studied Theon Greyjoy's sly smile, wondering what it meant. That young man had a way of looking as though he knew some secret jest that only he was privy to; Catelyn had never liked it.”

What exactly is Theon being so smug about here?

It's because of the letter he's going to be delivering to his father, Balon. Throughout Robb's campaign, Theon has become one of Robb's closest and most trusted advisors. As hindsight will show, these were Theon's glory days, when he felt like he had finally achieved some of the acceptance and esteem he had always been looking for from his foster family. When he really felt like things were coming up Milhouse Theon, and he was finally rising above his hostage status. He proudly says to Dagmer Cleftjaw:

"The Starks knew my worth. I was one of Brynden Blackfish's picked scouts, and I charged with the first wave in the Whispering Wood. I was that close to crossing swords with the Kingslayer himself." Theon held his hands two feet apart. "Daryn Hornwood came between us, and died for it."

He was hand-picked by the Blackfish. He was in the vanguard. When Daryn Hornwood comes to his aid in battle and lays down his life for him, how could that be possible if Theon wasn't seen as one of their own?

Except none of this erases the effects of the last 9 years spent as a ward-hostage, where Ned Stark mostly regarded him with cool distance and Catelyn with suspicion. Didn't help that Ned having to execute Theon one day was a real possibility since Balon is a rebellious idiot, and as we see that hasn't changed one bit. Theon still resents that his status kept him stuck in perpetual limbo without hope of future prospects. The idea that Ned might one day wed him to Sansa, claiming him as a son in truth, was a pipedream he occasionally entertained, indicating he's been longing for both his freedom, his guaranteed safety, and to be fully accepted. He can be noble-born, raised side-by-side, but his brotherhood with Robb will always hit a wall of inequality. That is, until the war, and Theon finally gets to taste what he wants most instead of only being allowed to sniff at it.

Theon believes the contents of that letter will not only resolve this ongoing issue but also grant him his due:

Theon had never seen a more stirring sight. In the sky behind the castle, the fine red tail of the comet was visible through thin, scuttling clouds. All the way from Riverrun to Seagard, the Mallisters had argued about its meaning. It is my comet, Theon told himself, sliding a hand into his fur-lined cloak to touch the oilskin pouch snug in its pocket. Inside was the letter Robb Stark had given him, paper as good as a crown. -- Theon I, ACOK. All he has to do is show it to his father. Robb is offering Balon what he has been wanting most. Join his fleet to the northern cause and Robb will recognize Balon as a King of the Iron Islands, an independent kingdom. Theon also proudly presents his own plan for the Ironborn to take the unguarded Casterly Rock and funnel wealth from the west back to House Greyjoy. In return for doing this good service to his father, Theon requests the castle be granted to him as a reward.

Everyone wins, most of all Theon. Robb is victorious and his kingdom is secured, owing much to Theon's ingenuity and skill. Dad gets his crown and a whole lot richer from the deal Theon helped broker. Theon is declared the crown prince as Balon's only surviving son. He gets plenty of recognition for his accomplishments with Casterly Rock as his trophy. He is assured of his father's acceptance after years of only sparse written contact. The entire reason for his hostage status evaporates. Theon now stands on equal footing with Robb as a royal, a future king himself. A whole world of possibilities opens up once the black cloud hanging over their brotherhood is lifted. What's not to smile about? This fixes everything!

Except that smug smile is literally slapped off his face with the reality check that his father is still a great big thundering fool.

His father laid a stinging backhand across his cheek. "Mind your tongue. You are not in Winterfell now, and I am not Robb the Boy, that you should speak to me so. I am the Greyjoy, Lord Reaper of Pyke, King of Salt and Rock, Son of the Sea Wind, and no man gives me a crown. I pay the iron price. I will take my crown, as Urron Redhand did five thousand years ago." -- Theon I, ACOK.

And here comes the bucket of ice water. I know this is beyond the scope of the question but this cold realization still gets me every time that I need to mention it. Not only is Theon met with mistrust, hostility, and derision he can't do anything to overcome, he finds out Balon already had plans underway to attack the undefended north before Theon had even set foot on Pyke. Theon was so written-off, that Robb having to execute Theon in response meant absolutely nothing to his father. Balon wasn't keeping the peace for nine years because he cared about Theon's safety. He just lacked an opportunity to take another swing until now. He's just... Randall Tarly levels of asshole, but also a grandiose moron and a massive hypocrite that calls out Theon for being too self-important and presumptive. God, he is awful.

[thebluelemontree]

Hey Blue! I was wondering how you think George will deal with Sansa's reputation as a (co-) Kingslayer? I don't think it's as easy as "Oh, the North doesn't care about any of that" or "Bran will vouch for her". Do you think the Tyrell plot ever comes to light & would it actually undue the damage done to Sansa's reputation? Plus, should SR die in LF's care (as intended), will this further condemn her? I don't know why GRRM wants to tarnish her in-world reputation even if we know she's innocent.

I don't think being implicated in the assassination of a king is something she will be absolved entirely of by everyone, everywhere. And as we can see, her reputation as a kingslayer has been quite the inspiration for some tall tales. The masses seem to only care about a murdered boy-king in as much as it's a really sensational true crime story. I mean, someone even thought to write a play about it. Opinions and attitudes will vary, as they usually do. Which IMO is good writing. Do I think those that maintain belief in her guilt will really matter in the end? No. What always wins people to Sansa's side is the way she treats them, and one way or another, I think she will earn the love of many by her own merits. It's probably safe to say the apocalypse will have a way of putting the past in perspective. The fact of the matter is, Sansa is not a 100% innocent bystander and completely unknowing about the hairnet because she is not an idiot.

"It's very lovely," Sansa said, thinking, It is a ship I need, not a net for my hair.

"Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It's magic, you see. It's justice you hold. It's vengeance for your father." Dontos leaned close and kissed her again. "It's home." -- Sansa VIII, ACOK. She was also instructed to wear this hairnet specifically on Joffrey's wedding day. The interaction she has with Dontos after she receives the Tyrell offer to take her to Highgarden is full of red flags, which she can sense:

When she told Ser Dontos that she was going to Highgarden to marry Willas Tyrell, she thought he would be relieved and pleased for her. Instead he had grabbed her arm and said, "You cannot!" in a voice as thick with horror as with wine. "I tell you, these Tyrells are only Lannisters with flowers. I beg of you, forget this folly, give your Florian a kiss, and promise you'll go ahead as we have planned. The night of Joffrey's wedding, that's not so long, wear the silver hair net and do as I told you, and afterward we make our escape." He tried to plant a kiss on her cheek.

Sansa slipped from his grasp and stepped away from him. "I won't. I can't. Something would go wrong. When I wanted to escape you wouldn't take me, and now I don't need to." Dontos is not relieved and happy she found an alternate means of getting away from Joffrey (red flag). Again, he very insistently hammers into her that wearing the hairnet on Joffrey's wedding day is critical to their escape (red flag). If she has no sense of foreboding that this hairnet has some ill purpose by now, then she wouldn't be so freaked out about going through with that plan or worried things would somehow backfire. Could she be thinking escaping through a backdoor is riskier than going out through the front door under Tyrell protection? Sure. But there are more details that come up later that speak to her having a spidey sense that something is really off about the hairnet. It's not that she knew the jewels were poison specifically. She's just a layperson with no familiarity with poisons of any kind, and I would not expect her to make that guess immediately. But for crying out loud, Dontos told her the hairnet was "VENGEANCE for her father." (RED FLAG) How could a reasonable person not question what that means exactly or not associate vengeance with violence? Sansa avoided asking some pretty obvious and more probing questions when she is very invested in going home. Her ignorance is an intentional choice on her part. She doesn't want to know exactly what hairnet's role is and why it's so important. When the Tyrell plan blows up and she is wed to Tyrion, she commits to wearing the hairnet to the wedding after all, come what may. She had her change of clothes in the godswood, ready to go as soon as whatever happens happens. She's accepted the outcome, even if she isn't 100% sure what the outcome will look like. And after Joffrey is dead, Sansa's feelings are understandably mixed.

He had not been dead when she left the throne room. He had been on his knees, though, clawing at his throat, tearing at his own skin as he fought to breathe. The sight of it had been too terrible to watch, and she had turned and fled, sobbing. Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well. "You have a good heart, my lady," she said to Sansa. "Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf."

A good heart. I have a good heart. Hysterical laughter rose up her gullet, but Sansa choked it back down. The bells were ringing, slow and mournful. Ringing, ringing, ringing. They had rung for King Robert the same way. Joffrey was dead, he was dead, he was dead, dead, dead. Why was she crying, when she wanted to dance? Were they tears of joy? Sansa is not someone who wants to stand there and relish Joffrey's agonizing death. Watching him suffer doesn't give her joy, only terror. At the same time, knowing that her abuser is dead and she's free of him makes her want to rejoice. And it's totally okay for her to have this dual nature between wanting to protect what's left of her innocence by running away from the horror of that vengeance realized AND feeling a sense of satisfaction that ding-dong the motherfucker's dead (I love how there are bells ringing in the scene). I mean, it's no lie she wanted to see Joffrey dead since her father's execution. Even had the intent of killing him herself in AGOT, and was only stopped by a third party. All it's showing is there is a darker side to Sansa when provoked. Not malicious streak, but a shadow self that lies beyond the limits of her compassion. Of course, I think she still has a good heart. I don't blame her for feeling elated at Joffrey's death or deciding to wear the hairnet when she had no alternatives. Joffrey's threats were escalating in depravity. Ultimately, she says Joffrey's fate was just and that the gods heard her prayer. She just didn't count on being set up (along with Tyrion) to look guilty as hell, and that's the realization that letting Dontos's fairytale "magic stones to take you home" explanation slide did not, in fact, protect her from anything.

As much as she's trying to deny it to herself, everything about her body language (see here and here) screams that she knew on some instinctual level the hairnet was more than just a hairnet for some time. That it is probably was a weapon of some sort. If she had no idea, then she probably wouldn't think anything of the missing stone. It's when the undeniable reality of Joffrey's murder by poison sets in, and she's prime suspect #2, that she's finally confronting Dontos about it.

Even if the Tyrells' involvement was fully exposed (i.e. transferring the poison from the hairnet to Joffrey's wine), that information doesn't automatically exonerate Sansa in public opinion. It just confirms she delivered the murder weapon to the assassin's hand, making her part of an ever-widening ring of conspirators. So if anything, it might make her look even more guilty in some people's eyes, but they probably already thought she was guilty anyway since she has "traitor's blood," fled the scene, and had more than enough motive to kill Joffrey. I cannot stress enough here that George's goal was never to make Sansa look universally bad or good within the story or to readers. He's trying to tell a story where realistically flawed human characters are struggling with internal conflict as much as external ones. For Sansa's part, he's trying to take her from naive unearned idealism to forged-in-the-fire earned idealism. For that, he's putting her through moral challenges that are increasingly less clear-cut. That means, sometimes her hands won't be 100% clean. And that's okay! Sansa's tendency to put on rose-colored glasses so red flags just look like normal flags is a half-inherited trait (Ned does this) and half-coping mechanism when shit gets too real. It's a flaw that is very easy to sympathize with under her circumstances of being manipulated, coerced, and entrapped into doing things she isn't comfortable with; however, it's a coping mechanism that will not serve her and has to be unlearned if her adversary is Littlefinger and Sweetrobin's life hangs in the balance. Littlefinger's grooming is meant to slowly tease out that shadow self, erode her conscience, and walk her over in baby steps to a fully-fledged sociopathic-leaning partner in crime.

It's highly unrealistic for her to come out smelling of roses after a long association with Littlefinger and being increasingly implicated in his crimes; however, this is what whistleblowers are for. They come forward and expose the corruption they were once a party to. And yes, it takes courage to face the potential backlash or consequences to do the right thing. That's earned idealism. As for Sweetrobin, I don't have the energy right now to elaborate on how I don't think it's a foregone conclusion he will die. I'd say it's 60/40 he'll live. Some key points:

The waif's story tells us how it's possible to survive the ravages of sweetsleep abuse IF there is an intervention by a healer that knows how to treat it. It can leave a person permanently affected, but they can live to adulthood. I don't think George decided to give us this fun fact for no reason at all.

Maester Colemon is being purposefully vague and withholding critical information on SR's dosage and tolerance levels from Alayne. Once again, she is a layperson. Not a maester. She doesn't, at this time, have a reason to suspect a maester is recklessly endangering SR by overprescribing what is known as a legitimate medicine with anticonvulsant properties. She is not aware of how the drug's misuse is contributing to SR's condition. And it looks like Colemon anticipates an overdose soon, so he's getting ready to shift the blame onto Alayne. Or so he hopes. This situation is far more complex than the poisoned hairnet plot and will require more advanced detective skills from Sansa. Sweetsleep is not generally regarded as poison. It's medicine. Sansa has some pieces of the puzzle here, but not enough yet to put a picture together. Yes, SR is in real danger of dying if someone doesn't figure out what's going on and intervenes. His death could be a wake-up call for Sansa; however, this is also an opportunity in TWOW for Sansa to figure out what's happening and potentially SAVE her cousin's life (fist pump). So with all this in mind, I don't think it's appropriate or necessary to reward her with her name and reputation universally restored. She can have a little checkering on her story, and still turn out to be an overall good person who is loved and respected by people who actually matter to her. Thanks for the question!

[thebluelemontree]

In your opinion, what kind of Lord of the Eyrie and Warden of the East would Harrold Hardyng be?

As a high lord, Harry would probably be as good as the counsel he receives and the influence he is under. I don't think he would care all that much about the how and why behind the governance of the region, so as long as he was its star. On one hand, he's very much what the conservative Vale lords are attracted to. He's not only a handsome young knight in his prime but he is also said to look like Jon Arryn in his youth. By contrast, Robert Arryn looks nothing like his father, is small and sickly, and has a huge image problem with his infantile tendencies. Harry is considered an ideal specimen for the traditional culture and continuing the Arryn line into the future. At least for appearance's sake. Even with his flaws, I can see him maintaining a high degree of popularity with his vassals. On the other hand, one of the things we see other characters note about him is that he's easily swayed, willful when it comes to the next shiny new thing, and will gladly accept honors he didn't earn. When Littlefinger tipped his hand at the Lord's Declarant meeting that he was interested in Harry coming to live at the Eyrie, Yohn Royce saw Littlefinger's intent to gain influence over the heir to the Vale. Royce promptly returned to Runestone and held a tourney for squires to earn their knighthood. Myranda Royce tells Alayne that Harry was meant to win, so he did. It was rigged. The thing is, Harry's tourney skills are said to be unimpressive and quite lacking, making it unlikely he could have earned the knighthood himself regardless. Yohn ensuring he got to knight Harry himself was supposed to strengthen their bond, so when he warned Harry to resist any moves Littlefinger might make toward him that sage advice would hopefully stick.

This says a lot about the kind of person Harry is. If he is totally unaware by the age of 18/19 that people are battling for influence over him as the heir, then he is an idiot. If he is aware but is content to be flattered and swayed by whoever is offering him something desirable, then he is alarmingly immature, self-centered, and thoughtless of the consequences of freely handing out the keys to power. If he is aware that the tourney was rigged for him and he did not actually earn the title ser, but accepted it anyway as if he deserved it, that's a lack of integrity someone like Littlefinger can easily exploit. Despite that effort on Yohn's part, once the invitations for the TotWK went out, Harry insisted on going because all his peers were going to be there and he didn't want to be left out. Yohn was said to have no choice but to let him go or else "a rift would come between them." It implies there was a tense and frustrating exchange about this issue, with Yohn spelling out to Harry that this is a ploy designed to lure Harry in (it totally is) and that it is strongly ill-advised to attend. But Harry throws all caution to the wind because "I don't care that the party is being held in a pit of vipers. All the cool kids are going, and you're not my real dad." :/ Good lord, does he make this easy for Littlefinger or what? So much for that knighting the little punk. Oh, yeah, and there will be a ton of bastards littering the countryside that will need to be provided for. Harry isn't very discreet. That's not anything too out of the ordinary for some lords, but I could see a few scandals that would need damage control if the paramour was of noble birth. Politics is personal. Even though most noblewomen are raised to expect and forgive infidelity, this still might cause a ton of marital discord or even bad blood between the Lady of the Eyrie and the baby mama's house. He does seem to love and care for his bastard children, so fatherhood and family life at home might be a point that grounds him a bit more if we're being charitable. The impression we're given strongly suggests he will continue to chase tail around. So in order to be a decent leader, I think Harry needs a team around him that knows how to manage his weaknesses and how to put his star image to good PR use. To be fair, he's still very young, and maybe with time, maturity, and good influence he could grow to be better than what we're seeing right now. He needs a Jon Arryn to wrangle his Robert Baratheon, albeit even Jon Arryn's capabilities were limited. Unfortunately, the person who is successfully jockeying for influence is Littlefinger, who we know just wants to use Harry until he outlives his usefulness; however, I don't think Harry is long for this world anyway.

[thebluelemontree]

Hiya blue lemon it's me again. Do you have any criticism in the way GRRM wrote Sansa in book1/2? EX:.Sansa and Jeyne are BFF but we amolst never see the girls talking to eachother, and when JP is sex traffikced sansa just forget about her(we could have a scene where sansa try to find what happened to JP or at least grieve for her). Every time sansa appears as a non-POV in AGOT she's been mean and whe we have her POV she's mean for no good reason(SANSA III AGOT). >PART 1<

And the worst is why GRRM wrote sansa goin to Cercei to tell her the "Ned Plans", it's just bad writing, Cercei kill lady so Sansa going to her was OOC GRRM just wrote that to we hate Sansa And in the book it's not explained what "the Ned plans" was(And it was nothing imortant at all, and would make no difference at Ned's fate) so ordinary readers blame Sansa for Ned's death and GRRM does that too in book 2 Cercei put all the blame for Ned death in sansa nd "the Ned Plans" Your thoughts?PART 2

There’s a lot to unpack here. 

I get a sense that in the early books, George was not as comfortable writing female relationships as he was writing male relationships or even male-female ones. I mean, Catelyn has no female friends, no companions like Margaery Tyrell’s cousins, no fostering wards of her own, no correspondences with other ladies except that one letter from Lysa for plot reasons. This is just weird for the lady of two major houses. It is neglectful on George’s part to give most of the important social connections to men. This doesn’t mean he was totally inept at writing female relationships, though, and it does seem like he’s tried to improve upon highlighting the positive in later books.

By comparison, the positive side of the brotherly relationships are presented so strongly that it tends to smooth over the conflicts with many readers. Jon can feel envious and resentful of Robb, but the love and loyalty is always in the foreground. The conflict between Arya, Jeyne, and Sansa does have legitimate character arc and plot purposes, so this isn’t bad writing. It’s unfortunate that GRRM presses down so hard on the constant bickering and occasional nastiness, but he did write some positives (albeit they tended to be revealed in later books) and there are understandable reasons for the dynamics. It was not done in a totally unrealistic way. What’s depicted is a typical and relatable rocky period for that age group, and there was negative adult influence at play. It’s not a permanent feature of the sisterhood. It’s all there if you pay attention and you’re inclined to be charitable toward the mistakes of young girls.       

If a reader is already predisposed to see the bonds between male characters as more pure and more able to overcome the negative aspects, then they probably also view the bonds between female characters as inherently weaker and more fraught with conflict. Fandom misogyny is not GRRM’s fault. That sector of the fandom will always have contempt for girls for being girls, especially preteen girls. They will always hone in on their faults and belittle their virtues. 

I don’t think that is true that we hardly ever see Jeyne and Sansa talking. They are nearly always in each other’s company. There was real friendship between Sansa and Jeyne, because what George does do well with them, is realistically write the way girls cement their bonds. Young girls strengthen their relationship by communicating and confiding in each other. Sharing secrets, crushes, hopes, fears, and pieces of gossip builds trust and intimacy. Jeyne and Sansa do this all the time, even though they can have different opinions and disagree about a lot.  Yes, there is some one-sidedness in that Sansa socially outranks Jeyne and believes that makes her more mature and wiser than her friend. Jeyne is dependent on her closeness to Sansa as a highborn lady and future queen to rise successfully, so she’s not going to push back on Sansa’s dominance. This is also a reason Jeyne sometimes bullies Arya to supplant her as Sansa’s “sister.” When Sansa has something to share, she goes to Jeyne to talk about it. I think it’s hilarious that the girls have a debate over which castle Gregor Clegane’s head will get spiked. Sansa wants Jeyne at her side for these new and exciting events like the tourney. When things get serious and dangerous, they comfort each other. Again, this is not all George’s fault if some readers don’t recognize or value the way girls do friendships.  

It’s stated quite clearly why Sansa tries to not think about Jeyne or her deceased family members very often. It’s fucking traumatic and her survival while among her captors depends on mentally holding herself together. 

If only she had someone to tell her what to do. She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked. Sansa was allowed to go riding too, but only in the bailey, and it got boring going round in a circle all day. -- Sansa II, ACOK.

Following her father’s beheading, Sansa was in a suicidal depression for days. She wouldn’t eat, wouldn’t bathe, welcomed drug-induced sleep, and contemplated killing herself. If she thinks too much on those she lost, she falls to pieces. She can’t openly weep and mourn for “traitors” if her life depends on appearing to be loyal to Joffrey. Most of her grief is suppressed inside. This also includes asking too many questions she doesn’t feel psychologically prepared to hear the answer to. She was there when the decision was made to shuttle Jeyne off to Littlefinger; however, she has no idea this is going to result in Jeyne being sent to a brothel and worse. I would also keep in mind that even if she did ask, it’s not like Cersei or Littlefinger would ever tell her the truth. Why would they? Does she really want to hear lies and have to think about what the horrible truth might be when she can’t do anything about it?  When it comes to Arya, Sansa believes her sister escaped on the ship bound for home. She comforts herself with imagining that Arya is safe and free, and that’s enough to keep her going.  

And she prays and sings for Jeyne, wherever she is.

She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin... -- Sansa V, ACOK.

It’s only until later in the books that Sansa feels emotionally at peace enough to start remembering the good times with Arya and Jeyne without breaking down into tears. We can also see the conflicts weren’t always a thing, and the love was strong with all three.

Sansa began to make snowballs, shaping and smoothing them until they were round and white and perfect. She remembered a summer's snow in Winterfell when Arya and Bran had ambushed her as she emerged from the keep one morning. They'd each had a dozen snowballs to hand, and she'd had none. Bran had been perched on the roof of the covered bridge, out of reach, but Sansa had chased Arya through the stables and around the kitchen until both of them were breathless. She might even have caught her, but she'd slipped on some ice. Her sister came back to see if she was hurt. When she said she wasn't, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair when Jory came along and pulled them apart, laughing. -- Sansa VII, ASOS.

It was most unladylike, but Alayne sound found herself laughing. For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up. -- Alayne I, TWOW.

So it’s not even that the girls only bond through confiding. They run, play, and roughhouse with each other. It’s interesting that AGOT!Sansa tried to be so mature and proper, but now that she’s older, she’s remembering how good and freeing it was just to be a kid. But let’s not act like this part of the story is over. Jeyne is still very much alive and seems likely to run into Arya in Braavos. We can almost be 100% certain that Sansa will find out the truth about what happened to Jeyne and what Littlefinger did to her (and her parents), then watch out. Sansa will turn all that buried pain into a righteous fury at Littlefinger.  

Now as for Sansa being mean for “no reason.” Um... yeah, LOL. Sometimes she’s just a total unwarranted bitch to her sister, and it’s not meant to be a good look. Sometimes she’s superficial, insufferably immature and annoying, judgmental and prejudiced AND THAT’S OKAY. I mean, she sounds no better or worse than your average middle-schooler if they were of the privileged nobility. Guess what? Sometimes preteens are really like that. Sometimes siblings have ugly, knockdown drag out fights where they say horrible things to each other. Most will grow past those phases and still wind up just as loving and close. It’s realistic and believable. Sansa has flaws, but they aren’t deep moral flaws. She does an amazing job at growing, learning, and overcoming those flaws over the course of the books. In TWOW, she’s warm and affectionate with people, easy-going, nonjudgmental, and genuinely more mature than ever. She took the stick out of her ass and became a happier person for it. What’s the problem? What did you want her to be? Perfect? Unfailingly kind and loved by everyone all the time? She’d be a saint, not a multifaceted human being. Even with her occasional ugly side, Sansa is still a strong, smart, compassionate badass. I don’t care if some people don’t like her as she is written or if they vilify her with their misinterpretations or ignore her strengths. What bearing does that have on GRRM’s vision for her character? He never set out to write any character that the whole fandom would either unanimously love or hate.    

This is not bad writing. This NOT bad writing. This is GOOD writing.

*Sigh* Listen... this whole nonsense about Sansa being to blame for Ned’s demise has been going on since ASOIAF was written on clay tablets. You don’t have to listen to every stupid thing the fandom says about anything. It’s just factually wrong. End of story. This misinterpretation and reader inattentiveness is not GRRM’s fault, because he lays out all the details of everything that went down between Arya, Ned, and Sansa’s POV as it was happening. It’s totally understandable why an upset and frustrated Sansa would go to Cersei, the mother figure she implicitly trusts and admires. She didn’t go to Cersei to betray her father’s plans. She went to the queen to intercede in what she thought had to be some big misunderstanding, having no idea what was really going on or at stake. 

This is not OOC for her to go to Cersei after Lady’s death. The hand that killed Lady was her own father’s, a undeniable breach of trust that wounded their relationship. Ned just doesn’t really do a lot to deal with the emotional aftermath either. Ned and Sansa are very similar in turning a blind eye when confronted with unpleasantness from someone they love. Ned is also at that moment disillusioned with Robert’s failure to do the right thing after the Trident incident. He begs Robert in the name of their brotherly love and the love he bore Lyanna, and Robert turns his back on Ned anyway. Yet Ned immediately goes right back to believing in the best of Robert’s nature, despite all evidence to the contrary. Every sign points to this being a one-sided friendship with Robert being lazy, irresponsible, and completely selfish. Like father, like daughter. Sansa has a very hard time accepting that Joffrey and Cersei are not the people she thought they were, even when she’s seen some cracks. And since she can’t understand her father’s actions and the communication has been shot to hell between them, of course she runs to Cersei with her problems. Cersei can flip a switch and pretend to be kind, loving, and understanding. 

This is so typical of a teenage thought process:  “Dad just doesn’t understand and he’s making a big mistake. I don’t understand why he’s doing this. He doesn’t get how important this is to me. This will all work out if a sympathetic adult steps in and fixes it. Everything will turn out great and we’ll all be happy.” While Sansa is pouring her heart out about how it isn’t fair she can’t say goodbye to Joffrey, Cersei pretends to be that sympathetic mother figure that really understands her. How hard would it be then to pump Sansa for information? Like “Oh my sweet little dove. I know how much you love my son. Don’t worry. I’ll help you straighten this out. You said your father wants to send you away? How? When? What’s the name of that ship again?”  

And that line from Cersei’s POV is horseshit. Cersei is a liar and regularly lies in her POV to absolve herself of responsibility and force the blame entirely on others. In this case, Cersei is acting like she didn’t totally manipulate a trusting child to betray her.  We also know this is a lie because Ned was the one that told her himself of his plans to reveal the invest and remove her as queen. Sansa had nothing to do with that. All Sansa did was give Cersei information that allowed Cersei the opportunity to take her hostage before the girls could leave by ship. Cersei’s plans against Ned were already well underway. Sansa never came to her with the intent of knowingly betraying anyone, but she did have selfish reasons for going to the queen to complain in the first place. GRRM said himself that Sansa wasn’t to blame for Ned’s capture or death, but she did play a role in the events that transpired. That’s fair. All that makes her is a kid who made a not entirely innocent mistake, but a mistake nonetheless, which she immediately learned from. Does she trust Cersei or Joffrey again? Hell no.  

Relax, anon. It’s fine for her to not be nice all the time. It’s fine for her to have some realistic, garden variety flaws. It’s one of the most universal human mistakes to fall too hard and fast for the wrong person, act the fool over them despite all the red flags, only to realize you only saw what you wanted to see in them. And Sansa learned this lesson at eleven when some adults haven’t learned it at all. Relax. She’s a great, well-written, relatable character who has overcome most of these issues successfully.  

[thebluelemontree]

I don't know if you've already answered a similar question, if you have I apologize and will look better for it. But do you think Sandor and Sansa would still love each with how much they've both changed? They've almost become new people, but still the same beings.

It’s no problem. I’ve written about that here and probably touched on this in many other posts. 

I wouldn’t frame the question as would they “still love each other with how much they’ve both changed.” It implies that their feelings were already understood as love by them when they were together. What they had was a confusing mess of conflicting emotions that neither were fully capable of understanding or accepting at the time. Each had their reasons for why that was so, which goes to some of the issues that stood between them. While there is chemistry, intimacy, and empathy shown, IMO, it’s better to think of them as possessing the building blocks that can lead to love in the future.  

On the other hand, there was also:

The fact that she’s too young, immature, and unready for a consummated romance with anyone. She needs space and time to grow up and figure out what she wants. Until AFFC, she’s still only comfortable consciously fantasizing about Loras Tyrell, who is non-threatening, conventionally attractive, and uncomplicated. They are still relatively chaste/borderline erotic fantasies. The unkiss takes time for her to consciously accept and embrace as reciprocated erotic desire.  

The fact that he has no idea how to express himself without resorting to the language of violence that he understands best.

The fact that he copes with the unresolved childhood trauma and PTSD in unhealthy ways like his abrasive Hound persona, his overly-cynical worldview, and sometimes abusing alcohol when he’s under stress.

His immaturity and inability to simply ask for and accept the emotional support he wants (which she was perfectly willing to give) without freaking out over being vulnerable with someone. 

The fact that they are on opposite sides of a war where Sansa’s family is in open rebellion against her captors who Sandor owes fealty to. 

The fact that she’s the king’s betrothed. She’s his property. To explicitly act upon any romantic attraction would be considered treason, punishable by torture and death.  

The fact that there is a massive class disparity between them that overshadows the age difference in their world. That’s one reason why neither can put a name to this thing between them. A future queen / high lord’s daughter from an ancient house should not be fraternizing with a non-knight from a house only three generations old. That’s why they struggle even knowing what to call each other because using first names shows too much familiarity and intimacy. This would be true even without any of the other conflicts. Class controls everything in Westeros. 

And yes, he still owes her a big heartfelt apology for his abhorrent behavior during the Blackwater, and he should beg her forgiveness.  

Most of these points I elaborate on in more detail in the links above. If you notice, though, most of these things have either been resolved or are in the process of being resolved. None of these issues were ever insurmountable obstacles. 

The ways in which Sansa and Sandor have evolved even in their separation has been largely positive and complementary of each other. They haven’t grown apart or become incompatibly different at all. If anything, it’s pushed their feelings further along, and it’s clear they are very much on each other’s minds. Since we can see Sansa’s perspective firsthand, she’s only thought about Sandor more since he left.  

Sansa has grown and matured a lot more when we see her in the TWOW sample chapter. Had the five-year gap panned out, she would be legally an adult in Westeros; however, dropping it doesn’t seem to have affected GRRM’s intentions for any of his POVs. She’s in the company of unconventional, sexually mature women in their early twenties who can be role models in navigating adult relationships. The sassy way she takes no shit from a brutally honest Harrold Hardyng shows she has confidence and the ability to go toe-to-toe with Sandor’s gruff personality without getting flustered and running away. After she wipes the floor with him with her wit, she ends up winning Harry over to the point he’s begging for her favor. There is no point in the sample chapter where she voices any anxieties about not feeling ready for marriage, sex, or children. This no longer seems to be an issue for her, so we can assume she feels okay with having an adult relationship at this point.   

Her time as a bastard girl has made her warmer and friendlier. She was always kind, but proprieties and courtesies can also read as aloof and re-enforcing strict class boundaries. Can you imagine Kings Landing!Sansa hugging someone like Lothor Brune, a landless knight, as she does in TWOW? Or preferring the company of a sex-positive widow who enjoys taking lovers or a bastard girl over the “perfect sister” she saw in Margaery Tyrell and her cousins? Hell no. That would never happen. This new Sansa lacks those prejudices and is openly affectionate towards people she was raised to keep at arm’s length. Once she loosened up and stopped reciting courtesies, people actually got to know her and like her for who she is. That’s what Sandor always wanted from her, right? To drop the courtesies and flattering bullshit and just be a real person with him, not a talking parrot. While that criticism was harsh and rudely put, it had a lot of truth to it. It seems to have made Sansa into a happier person and more in touch with her authentic self. Now that she has accepted in Feast that she wanted Sandor like that, what is there to stop her from acting on it later?

The Quiet Isle didn’t exist before Feast. It was written for Sandor to recover and rehabilitate. Not just physically, but he’s getting what constitutes psychological counseling and a treatment plan that deals directly with his worst traits. He appears to meet with the Elder Brother often enough because the latter seems to know quite a bit about Sandor’s backstory, what his issues are, and exactly who Sansa Stark is. The rest of the time, he must observe the no talking rule and do meaningful work as a novice. This man, who once flaunted his contempt for those who couldn’t defend themselves as weak and deserving of death, is put to work digging graves for the innocent victims of violence. All day long, he has to look at the faces of men, women, and children killed by evil men with that philosophy. One brother even yells at him for carelessly tossing dirt around with the shovel, and he silently takes it. No smart ass backtalk. In the evening, he has to serve food and clear plates for men he would have once mocked. They’re men of faith, they’ve renounced violence, and Sandor sits lower in status than them. To Sandor’s credit, he humbly submits to all this in a show of respect and humility. It’s like he wants to learn these lessons they are offering and is allowing himself to be schooled. Now Sandor may always be Sandor on some level (if Stranger kicking down the stable doors and refusing to be gelded is any indication). Still, it does look like he’s become a gentler, healthier, and sober version of himself. The only part of Sandor that Sansa rejected was the Hound, and it’s both stated in the text and by George himself that the Hound is dead. Period. And yeah, it seems like Sandor is in a place where he is unlikely to backslide into old behavior, and he can make that heartfelt and necessary apology to Sansa. I don't think Sandor could ever be okay with moving their relationship forward without making amends first. It wouldn't sit right with his sense of remorse and personal responsibility, which is a good thing. 

All these changes are for the better for them as individuals and as a possible future couple. Contrary to your ask, I would say a positive, fully-fledged romance with "HEA" potential wouldn’t be possible or believable without all the growth and changes they've undergone. When they reunite, they can do so on more equal footing. 

Not that there aren’t more conflicts to overcome. They both are currently wanted fugitives for murders they didn’t commit, so they both need to clear their names and reclaim their true identities. There is still the matter of Sansa’s marital status as Tyrion isn’t dead but their marriage was also unconsummated. She could try to have her marriage officially annulled by the Faith somehow, but to do that, she’ll have to take the risk of revealing her true identity. Again, these don’t seem like plots that won’t be resolved anyway at some point. What about that class divide though? Well, the Starks aren’t like Tywin or Cersei, and they actually value things like faithful service. No reason why Sandor couldn’t be awarded a lordship and lands in gratitude for saving the lives of both Arya and Sansa. I’m just sayin’.