i can't believe ppl are arguing whether zack snyder can be compared to frank miller when bvs is partly an adaptation of frank miller's the dark knight returns you guys remember snyder did 300 too right and watchmen snyder is bringing back the grim and gritty phase that followed watchmen and tdk in comics when a decade of writers and editors wanted to riff on those same themes but didn't get them right this is, like, comics history 101 stuff, i learned this in a wizard magazine article in 1993
i don't know if youve been asked this but what do you think about how in the new dc guidebook jason is listed as having trained with the all caste but not with the league of assassins?
i wonder if that makes the scene where essence attempts to kill him remain canon now, especially since it explicitly states his soul is innocent, moreso with how they're pushing for jason to be on friendly terms with the batfam (seemingly out of nowhere every time it happens)
personally i hope this means we might get more mentions of the all blades sometime, it was an interesting plot device that got underutilized imho (that one batman/superman annual where jason got to use the all blades was actually kinda good and i hate how little people talk about it 😭)
Sorry anon, unfortunately I haven't read rhato and I don't want to so I can't help you with that one.
If it's not too much of a bother, do you have any comic recommendations for someone looking for Talia stories? I haven't picked up a comic since like highschool and even there wasn't much Talia. Someone told me to read death and the maidens but someone else was saying she was less a character and more of a plot device in that one.
It’s not a bother at all! I struggle to recommend DATM, unless you want to specifically read the story that a lot of Talia fans cite as being something that should be used as the reason for her villainous turn/a story that’s fairly important in her history for all the wrong reasons. It’s horrifically antisemitic so I will absolutely warn you of that before you decide to read. DATM (for me) is in an odd place where I hesitate to call it essential reading, but it is the story where things really started to go wrong for talia pre-morrison (alongside batman: hush) so if you're looking to become knowledgeable overall about talia's situation then I think it's at least important to know the role DATM played in her demise as a character.
But some Talia stories I DO recommend reading are:
detective comics 411; her first appearance
batman 232, 235, 240, 243, 244, 257; a collection of her earlier appearances, to get an overall feel for the character
detective comics annual #1
batman: son of the demon; arguably one of her most important stories, that has only become more important due to her character assassination surrounding the conception and treatment of damian
batman 400
detective comics 526
batman birth of the demon & batman: bride of the demon
batman chronicles #8!!!!!!!!; possibly one the most important talia stories ever told, the first story that ever gave us talia's pov
batman/spider-man: new age dawning
JLA: tower of babel; 30 years of stories for her leads up to this book and in particular the ending
superman: president luthor
action comics 772 & 773
the adventures of superman 600
superman: the man of steel 120
I also feel its worth mentioning the BTAS comics too because they perfectly highlighted talia and who she is and her dynamics with bruce and ra's
the batman adventures 13, annual 2, 29
batman the adventures continue season three 6, 7, 8
for more modern reading I would personally suggest you simply dive straight into ram v's current detective comics run; starting at #1062 - all you really need to know is she is on better terms with damian and as it stands ra's is dead (or at least everyone believes so).
she has had a few good moments here and there since bendis's event leviathan series, but if you want to get in depth with current al ghul stuff and to see the groundwork being laid of her returning to bruce's life as a more central figure, then williamson's 2022 robin run/batman: shadow war/batman vs robin/lazarus planet is what you should read, alongside ram's TEC. but again, it's not really necessary imo and MOSTLY not really a good highlight of talia's character; you can just go straight into ram's TEC.
you could also check out future state: gotham which is an elseworlds comic that put Talia front and centre in a way that was pretty good and was a good indicator of DC trying to rehabilitate Talia's overall image, but it's also not essential reading by any means.
There's a few other older comics here and there such as the batman: lazarus affair arc that you might find interesting, but these are the ones off the top of my head that I would recommend, at least to get started. I hope this has been helpful!
Jason's circus heritage in pre-crisis canon was "stolen" from Dick.
Jason being killed by Joker was "stolen" from Dick. You know that, right?! That the Joker almost killed Dick, so Bruce fired him. And when the new Robin didn't take with the readers (because he was too similar to Dick!) DC used the same plot device as was used on Dick. DC even ran a poll to decide if Jason lived/died. If the 'lives' poll had won, Jason's Joker storyline would have remained EXACTLY the same as Dick. But you are right, dying IS Jason's one big storyline. Isn't that why the actor playing Jason's first live action appearance and his fans can't wait to see a teenager be brutalised onscreen? At least, he is 19 in the show and not 14-15 as in canon. Small mercies.
You won't find me disagreeing that Kon shouldn't be on a team with Dick. Kon is Tim's gen; there is Garth, someone who can take Superman, in Dick's team. Kon is a downgrade for Dick's Titans🤷
COURT OF OWLS? Now, you are embarrassing yourself. It was Dick's storyline. Just do your research, dude. Snyder had to reconfigure it for Bruce 🙄
Hush?! When has Hush been a Dick villain?! Hush is a Gotham villain. If Dick is in Gotham, Dick gets involved. While we are on the topic of Gotham's villains, Dick has a more antagonistic relationship with Two-Face and Joker (until Jason's death which, come to think of, still didn't make Joker someone Batman actively tried to get rid of; unlike Dick, who actually killed him once😁) than any other Batfam; you know, because these two villains almost killed Dick. We can have a whole day's conversation about Dick's villains being appropriated for the Batfam.
"faking his death"? Dick died. Simple. Bruce "faked" his death. Don't be like Jason, Tim and Babs, yeah. Tim didn't even know something that happened in front of the whole world. Stan them, but be better than them. Such a selfish lot.
"stealing being an assassin from Cass and Damian"? Don't know about Renegade, do ya? Well, that has been established before, so yeah. Also, Dick's Robin was being called and written as an absolute "ninja" decades before Cass and Damian were even a thought in some DC creator's mind.
Dick stole the Titans being a team from Justice League? Oh sweet child! The Justice League was built on the lines of the original Dynamic Duo - Bruce's Batman and Dick's Robin. You really think Bruce is the team building sort?! Good one, mate. There is a reason why Dick's Robin is a constant presence in Justice League missions 😉
Batman stole his everything from Zorro and Phantom😂 Dick's Robin borrows from classical literature😉 The differences and similarity in imagery itself speaks so much to both their origins.
Dick's parents being shot was first used by Miller. You can fight it out with him- but you will have to join the line at the very end, Dick's fans have first dibs, and we have far too many issues with Miller's take. As for its use in the Nightwing Annual, the Court of Owls is reconfiguring Dick's memories. Or did you not read and jumped to conclusions at the images? 🤔
Dick has never dated a villain. That IS Bruce's department. He can have it. Vicki Vale and Selina Kyle are Bruce's contemporaries. Bruce was dating them when Dick was 10. If DC writes Dick with Bruce's women, send your "ewww" to DC. Dick's fans AND Selina's fans will join you.
As for "stealing legacies", can we play like kindergarten kids? Okay. Then, Bruce did it first, my Lord. Robin was never Bruce's. It was not Bruce's to fire Dick from. It was not Bruce's to give it away to another kid. AT LEAST, Dick didn't wear the Cowl to thumb his nose at Bruce. Dick put on the Cowl because BOTH times, the guys who put it on first turned out to be murderous. In Jason's case, Dick knew first hand how it felt when someone put on another's mantle and killed just to taint their legacy, didn't he, as Jason had once worn the Nightwing Blue and murdered and triggered a police hunt for Nightwing.
The Batfam fandom needs to look beyond the Batman book, beyond the last few years. If you don't read the actual comics, it's fine - I live in a country where I can hardly ever find DC and if I do get, they are 4x the US price. But Google is free and so are the DC sites. Happy Reading. Cheers!!!
Nah @scandalsavagefanfic and mates. Just knowing that some more folks know about the original Batman and Robin than before is thanks enough for me😁 Thanks so much for coming to my TED Talk 🙏
BATMAN #417-420
MARCH - JUNE 1988
BY JIM STARLIN, JIM APARO, MIKE DECARLO, ADRIENNE ROY, MIKE ZECK AND ANTHONY TOLLIN
When a Russian assassin escapes the Soviet Union, he goes to America with the purpose of killing all the people involved in the project Star Wars. Including the president.
SCORE: 7
Oh boy, do I have spoilers to discuss... (check the spoilers section).
This was a story that I always felt had an extreme unnecessary ending. I just couldn’t understand how this story was published at all.
Of course, at the same time, this story is a classic and the KGBeast became a very important villain that made it into other media (Batman V Superman, Arrow).
The concept of the KGBeast is not much different than Prometheus or Bane, although both Bane and Prometheus are quite smart by their own. KGBeast... well, check the spoiler section.
Aparo did an amazing job for the most part, but his generic male faces are a problem when he has to present a whole group of FBI agents, and it is up to Adrienne Roy to tell them apart.
Spoilers after the break...
“Once again I’ve underestimated him” says Batman. Well, if anything, you completely overestimated him. The guy had an axe. He also had his hand trapped with a rope. He has the option of a) cutting his hand, or b) cutting the rope. He cuts the rope.
Then we have the “ethical” questions. First of all, Robin technically sends a terrorist to his death in this story. No one talks about it, mostly because the guy was about to commit suicide, so he would have died anyway... but he kind of sends him to his death on the street... he just happened to explode before that.
Then there is “DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY” situation. Which is hilarious because later on, Starlin will use the same plot device to put Batman against the Joker in a similar conundrum, I’ll talk about it when I get there.
So, because of the diplomatic immunity, Batman decides to trap the Beast in the sewer and abandons him to his fate. He technically leaves him there to die. Which is not something Batman would do. I am under the impression that after Frank Miller’s version of the character, some writers weren’t sure what the rules to the character were anymore. But O’Neil should have known better.
Now, we know the KGBeast survived and it will be retconned very fast after Starlin’s run, to make it look like Batman actually called the police afterwards. But at the moment that issue came out... he basically let him die.
I feel like this ending wasn’t really necessary, it is just another demonstration that Starlin wasn’t writing Batman in a normal way. But I can understand why people like this interpretation of the character.
This time, AO3 tags like “Graphic description of violence” are important. Other tags or warnings you can see on AO3 version of that fic!
Chapter 2 tumblr ver
I apologize for being late - I was working on the plot mostly. On the plus side (for you) this fic will have 6 chapters. The need for next chapter is @nanadrawsrobins fault and that’s what I’m going to say on the matter.
I also apologize for mistakes - but for me it’s almost 3a.m. and I was too stubborn and said to myself that I will finish that chapter (only so I could not look at this fic for at least to weeks). If there are some very obvious ones (illogical, grammatical) please let me know. I’ll check for them later.
Without further ado, chapter under the cut
Everywhere he looked there was white.
Just mere minutes ago the wind stopped, letting Timothy see without obtrusion. Storm was far away now. Sun raised up two hours ago, but he could see only gray clouds everywhere on the sky.
“R1. Roger.”
Timothy raised his hand to his comm unit. “R1 here. Roger.”
“Your position?”
“According to plan. Storm arrived after I reached position.”
“Can you complete the mission?”
“Without problems.”
“Continue with the mission. H1 out.”
Timothy closed the link. He kinda lied. There was too much snow to move freely (at least for anyone as small as him) but he wasn't going to admit needing help. Like anyone would help him, anyway. He quickly made sure his gear is in place and started to move.
Stupid judging ninja.
Mission objective was to take down five of his Master's enemies–group of second-rate annoying mercenaries, who instead of joining League of Shadows decided to take their clients. And did it for months.
They were taken now not because they could hide well (they really couldn't. Not before Timothy's Master.), but because Ra's thought that it was great training exercise for him.
So here he was now. Sneaking towards the old miners-cottage. Mine was closed for years, but there was still a remotely-safe path to the other side of mountains and of country borders. Cottage made for nice rendezvous point, he could give them that.
Cottage wasn't big and consisted of probably only one room with everything in it. On one wall was chimney, opposite to that wall–door with one window besides it on both sides. Side walls didn't have windows. With possibility of fire being started in the chimney, the only safe entrance for Timothy was the front wall.
Timothy grumbled in his mind, not for the first time since he got the mission. It all could go faster if he used snow from mountains behind cottage to trap everyone. Or just use bazooka. But, because Ra's like to make Timothy's life harder (all in the name of training), the cottage had to stay (it would be nice to be able to use it later, he even said). Besides, he had to bring his Master's all five heads of those men as some old-fashioned proof of accomplishment (like he can carry that much ballast at once). He hopes he finds a net or something for that.
Too bad his teammates for this mission are only here to judge Timothy–and shoot down anyone who tries to run away.
He moved towards cottage, avoiding the front side. He stopped besides one of the side wall, somewhere in the middle of it. Slowly he moved toward front to see if anyone went out (to the parked in front car, or just out), but he didn't change the wall he stood near. Two of supposedly five men total were probably observing through the windows.
Timothy sighed, hiding from sight. He had to think of a way to kill them all at once, without destroying the cottage (stupid rules). Or of a way to get inside and not get killed instantly. Or somehow luring them out so he could kill them separately. Anyway, he had to make sure everyone was there before attacking, only to not be surprised from the outside.
For short moment he considered asking H1 on comm if he can see everyone inside, but decided against it. They might be here to make sure he didn't die and mercenaries do, but they were reporting straight to his Master later. He doesn't need them spreading lies, like he can't do simple missions alone, thanks but no thanks.
That left luring them out and hoping for the best. Maybe he could not destroy cottage that way? Besides, Timothy might have thought out the plan–half arsed but still something.
First of all he needed to take a position–away from the house, not too far and still on the same side. And not further to the front than than the end of the side wall–he couldn't be seen by the guys besides the windows. Climbing the trees was out–the branches were to high for him. Fortunately he could hide nicely between trees and bushes.
From his new place he had even better view of the car and front of the cottage. Timothy smiled mentally. He took one specially modified smoke-bomb from one pouch and from the other pouch on the tight he took out slingshot, he specially made for certain kind of covert mission (It was annoying not having enough strength to throw things far. But at least no-one questioned when a kid like him had one in hand). He didn't expect would be using it today.
He checked the wind one last time and put in a smoke-bomb as ammunition. Aimed and released. Suddenly white smoke was coming out from the broken front window of the car.
After all, no-one said the car had to stay intact.
Timothy quickly hid behind the bush, kneeling and taking the gun out.
“What the-?!” he heard one man say with raspy voice.
Someone opened the door and two people came out, based on their voices. None of them matched the first, so that would make three. But what about the other two…?
We will see in the moment, he thought and stood up very quickly aiming and shooting at the two. Both in the chest. Then as quickly he hid back and moved to the side and back towards forest and his first post, using bushes, trees and everything to stay hidden.
As he guessed, the others didn't get out to take their fallen comrades. That meant he needed other tactic to lure them out.
When he was far enough from the cottage Timothy broke into the run. At his last post he left his snowmobile. He needed it now to make a diversion.
“R1! Did you forget the plan?!” H1 screamed in his ear.
What fucking plan?! Timothy thought, running to the snowmobile. He clenched his teeth. The only plan he got was about getting to cottage, then–he guessed–he was supposed to be left to his own devices.
Fuck. He cursed in his head. If I had to obtain from H1 and rest their stupid plan…
“There!”
Timothy heard someone shout above as he got to the motor. He looked up as he sat on a seat.
Meta. His eyes widened in shock as he saw the S-shield. …Superman?
The guy smiled happily at Timothy and waved.
Fuck. Timothy cursed and sped through towards cottage.
“R1 to H1! We have a third party!”
**
After gathering all the possible locations as well as current general Tim's location, they knew now where to look.
They quickly discarded current one–Conner wasn't able to pinpoint it and what he heard make him think that Tim would soon move. That left only three options–still too much, but manageable.
They couldn't ask others–and it wasn't matter of Bat pride, but of resources. For most of Damian's years as Batman Justice League interference was needed more often in the world than when Dick or his father wore the cowl. It hasn't changed. Currently, most of the heroes were off-planet or were already dealing with something.
Previously, Damian put it under his inadequacy, not being able to stop that much crime, pushing himself to be stronger. Faster. But with recent revelation he wasn't afraid of making a wild-guess as for why that was really happening. Adding it to what he observed about League of Assassins actions during the same time, it stopped being a guess.
It was more of a resigned acceptance of an option they never planned to consider, but it always was somewhere in the back of their heads. Buried in fear of what it implicated and what emotions it would wake.
But now, it's too late now, isn't it?
Damian, as well as the rest of them, tried hard to not let emotions get control of the planning stage. But, besides the burning anger he felt at the thought of someone hurting his family, there was another ugly feeling he hadn't had in a long time.
He hated being made a fool. Being lead by the nose for years and the fear for his brother was what pushed Damian to make additional plans, his family (and surely part–if not–all of the League) would oppose. But he wasn't in hurry to reveal it.
There wasn't much to plan, besides how to minimize (even better, prevail) body-count. They had to grab Tim and run and it's obvious to say that Ra's expecting them at some point. That meant heavy guard around the kid, especially in Ra's bases. There's chance for less people around him during missions, but better to be prepared for worse.
The bigger problem was 'what should they do next?'. No-one in the Family fooled themselves that Ra's would leave them alone after they get Tim back. Not after him stealing Tim's body from them, before they get a chance to cremate him.
That left another question–was that really their Tim, whom they cremated?
He left those questions for later. There were more important matters for now.
Get Tim back first. Then few favors from Zatanna and Martian Manhunter. Then get back to Gotham with Tim.
Simple as that.
“Are we there yet?” Clone.
Damian glared at the road ahead.
“No.” he replied his companion. They were raiding the bat-plane as fast as he could and he really didn't care that Kon-El could fly faster. “Are you always so impatient?”
“You mean, you aren't? Soon we will see Tim!”
Damian rolled his eyes at Kent’s behavior. “It's not guaranteed that we are at the right location. Other teams might find him first.”
“Nah-huh” Conner disagreed, while waving his index finger. “I know you, Bats. You wouldn't call dibs on that locations first, if you didn't know he will be there.” Damian greeted his teeth at that.
“I still don't know. I guessed.” He retorted. “It was a hunch, you goddamn idiot, there was no proof that based it. Stop being so damn hopeful.”
Conner, thankfully for Damian, stopped talking. Their flight was spent in silence until they were getting near (presumably) Tim's location.
Damian stopped the plane on relatively smooth area, kilometers from where they expected Tim to be.
Kon got out from the plane to use his super-hearing. Damian went after him and waited for the verdict.
As the silence stretched for too long, Damian asked annoyed.
“You are sure you can hear him?”
“I can give you one better.” Kon replied pointing somewhere far away for Damian to see, on the right. “I can see him.”
“He's with someone?”
“I see one dude dressed like Tim, two dead bodies, two other guys… wait. Tim is running away from them.”
Damian pushed the button for jet to open. “Go after him. I'll distract them as planned.”
Before Kon flew away, he turned to Damian one last time.
“You sure, I should leave you alone with the rest of them?” he asked and Damian could hear Conner's worry in his tone.
Damian waved his hand as dismissing those worries.
“Sure.”
Kon flew after Tim.
**
Timothy was driving away, getting the meta as far as he could from his team. They were engaged with other third-party members. And considering meta's infatuations with him, he was chosen to buy time.
He didn't know why the Superman-wannabe was flying after him, not giving him a chance to take a break, but he sure as hell wasn't going to get caught.
“I've got new mission for you.” he suddenly heard his Master's voice in his comm.
Timothy turned drastically towards less open area and accelerated. He was far from cottage and his mission, but getting the guy away from him took precedence.
“Yes, Master?” he replied back, as soon as he made sure he lost the guy. For now.
“Get captured. The invading party are, ah, your predecessor 'family'.”
Timothy scrunched his nose. What now? He expected few more years before meeting them.
“Should I implement the plan? Or is there other objective?” he asked.
“The plan. There's no reason to make them wait, Timothy.”
“My previous mission?”
“I count on that problem being taken care of.”
“Yes, Master. R1 out.” Timothy disconnected.
Ok, you have to get caught, he thought to himself, as he made another turn, this time in the cottage direction. Remember to not make it too obvious.
With one hand he took out the little lead box, hidden somewhere in his clothing, getting ready for opportunity, while he steered with the other. No-one said previous mission is now canceled. Maybe he would have a chance to finish those guys off, before next mission. And if he doesn't finish it, his teammates surely are capable of finishing it for him.
Just don't disappoint Master. He thought. You can do it, Tim.
**
Conner cursed, flying after Tim. The kid really was making the chase very irritating, making him fly through forests and ducking last moment before he hit branches.
Impenetrable skin is one thing. Branches in your eyes are other. He should have invested in goggles before going.
The kid turned suddenly, hiding behind the mountain. Kon hated harsh turns like that. He slowed so to not get dumped in a tree, but in that time he lost sight of Tim.
Thankfully, not for long.
He didn't caught the conversation Tim had on the comm–only some scraps at the end–but he hoped it wasn't important.
On the other hand, he almost caught Tim! Before he flashed kryptonite before his eyes.
He REALLY should have invested in some goggles.
Kon wasn't deterred by this. He didn't want to destroy anything before that, but if that is what will help him grab Tim, then he isn't sorry.
Closing his eyes he concentrated on the sounds and flew after the loudest one. To defend himself from the branches he put a layer of TTK around him–at the same time, accidentally cutting down few trees while flying after Tim.
At some point he didn't hear the echo of the motor, sounds going further and further away and he didn't feel his TTK hitting anything. He opened his eyes to see the open are as he predicted.
And Tim speeding his motor towards the edge. What?!
Kon sped and caught Tim mid fly, where ground was far under them. The snowmobile was falling down towards the cottage and finally crashing at the trees quite a distance from it.
Conner hugged Tim tighter as he looked at the fire now below them. He, thankfully, saw Damian far away from it–he was still fighting with the other assassins, obviously stalling for time.
Then he remembered to let Damian know.
“Hey, I got him!” He said, using one hand to turn on the comm. “…Yeah, I'm not putting him down. Going according to plan.” He disconnected the line.
Kid struggled to get free, but Kon only made sure his TTK is keeping him in place. Then he flew with him towards Gotham.
Holy shit. He thought–happiness slowly taking place of shock. Tim's alive!
**
“Hey, I got him!” Damian suddenly heard in his comm.
“Good. Don't let him run away.” He replied punching another of Ra's men.
“Yeah, I'm not putting him down. Going according to plan.” he heard the line being disconnected.
Conversation finished, news received and Damian felt the tension leaving his body. He observed as the assassins changed tactics, starting from surrounding him.
One, two, three, four… Four. Only four of them, no help. How cute. Now he could finish this like he wanted to.
Damian retook his stance. He felt himself smiling as he shouted for all of them to hear “Oy! Imbeciles!”
He caught the gaze of one of them, recognizing apprehension in their moves. That surprised Damian. There was no reason for them to be afraid, after all, he wasn't going to kill them (not like Todd).
Only… incapacitate.
“Bring it on.”
**
“Mission status.” Ra's said through the comm.
“Two of five men killed. Rest run away. We were ambushed, before we could stop them. They abducted R1. Should we go after R1, Master?” H1 asked, knowing full well who his Master was prioritizing more.
Ra's didn't give them a chance to make amends. “I'll take care of it.” he replied, annoyed at their failure. “Finish your mission. You failed me once and I don't want to see the repeat of it.”
“Yes, Master! I sincerely apolo–“ Ra's disconnected, not waiting to hear the rest.
He knew that they weren't match for his grandson, no matter the training. Still, it didn't stop him from irritation at the incompetence of his own men. They should have last longer than that. Clearly, he had to make a visit to his training facilities, audit was in order.
“Are we following them?” Talia asked from behind him, stopping him from his musings.
Her father frowned, confused. It lasted a moment, before he turned towards exit.
“Why should we?” He asked in nonchalant tone, as if everything went perfectly according to his plan. And knowing Ra's, it went. “We know perfectly well were they will be in the end.”
