#bitterbridge

[mejcinta]

Aegon and Helaena creating Maelor 'on the bedroom floor' woulda actually saved House of the Dragon as a show, thank you very much! 'Butterfly Effect' and all that.

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

Ormund Hightower: "The Targaryens are a savage race"

Also Ormund (plus his Targaryen relative) for no fucking reason:

When Lady Caswell appeared on the ramparts of her castle to ask for the same terms Lady Merryweather had received, Hightower let Prince Daeron give the answer: “You shall receive the same terms you gave my nephew Maelor.” Her ladyship could only watch as Bitterbridge was sacked. The Hogs Head was the first building put to the torch. Inns, guild halls, storehouses, the homes of the mean and the mighty, dragonflame consumed them all. Even the sept was burned, with hundreds of wounded still within. Only the bridge remained untouched, as it was required to cross the Mander. The people of the town were put to the sword if they tried to fight or flee, or were driven into the river to drown.

But hey at least with Lady Caswell's highborn children he only... packed them off to Oldtown traumatised and orphaned and in chains.

Prediction: In HOTD3 Bitterbridge will either happen offscreen (while they invent another non-canon war crime for TB) or it'll be another whoopsiedaisy.

[ilustrandocanciondehieloyfuego]

22_Choque de reyes_Catelyn II

-...Os hablaré con franqueza, mi señora. Stannis sería un rey espantoso. Aunque no tendrá la corona, claro. La gente respeta a Stannis, incluso lo temen, pero muy pocos lo han amado jamás.

 —Aun así es vuestro hermano mayor. Si alguno de los dos tiene derecho al Trono de Hierro, sería Lord Stannis. 

Renly se encogió de hombros.

 —Decidme, ¿qué derecho tenía mi hermano Robert al Trono de Hierro? — No esperó la respuesta—. Sí, ya, se habló de lazos de sangre entre las casas de Baratheon y Targaryen, de bodas que hubo hace siglos, de hijos segundos e hijas mayores. Eso no le importa a nadie, sólo a los maestres. Robert consiguió el trono con su maza.

[horizon-verizon]

Medieval norms of warfare often dictated that settlements offering no resistance and agreeing to terms of surrender were spared from destruction. This principle served multiple purposes:

Preserving Resources: Sparing peaceful settlements allowed defeaters to benefit from the city's economic and logistical resources, rather than destroying them.

Maintaining Reputation: Honor and legitimacy were crucial in medieval warfare. Leaders who upheld terms of surrender strengthened their moral standing and ensured future settlements would be more likely to negotiate rather than resist.

At Bitterbridge, Lady Caswell and the townspeople offered no resistance, instead preparing to deplete their resources and accept surrender terms. This act signaled a willingness to negotiate, which should have spared them from destruction under typical medieval conventions. Yet, Daeron chose to sack the town anyway, denying them any terms. If Daeron’s aim was to avenge Maelor, punishing Lady Caswell alone would have sufficed rather than targeting innocent civilians unnecessarily. By violating the norms of surrender, Daeron risked his reputation among allies and enemies alike, weakening his moral authority as a leader. Such actions likely discouraged future settlements from surrendering, as they could no longer trust promises of leniency. This could lead to prolonged resistance and higher casualties in subsequent campaigns.

Unlike Bitterbridge, the attacks on Lannisport were calculated and strategic. Dalton’s raids served as a method to pressure the Lannisters into shifting their allegiance to Rhaenyra. This aligns with medieval practices where raids were often used to:

Weaken Opponents: Raids disrupted the enemy's economy, morale, and logistical support.

Force Negotiations: By targeting Lannisport, Dalton sought to force the Lannisters into a position where aligning with Rhaenyra became their most viable option.

Since the Lannisters remained loyal to Aegon, Dalton’s attacks were a justified consequence of their allegiance. The responsibility for Lannisport’s fate rested with the Lannisters’ decision not to negotiate. If the Lannisters had switched their loyalty to Rhaenyra and Dalton had continued his raids, his actions would have crossed into true injustice. However, as long as the Lannisters resisted, Dalton’s raids were an acceptable means of exerting pressure until his actions went beyond calculated violence, risking harm to Rhaenyra’s political goals and alienating potential allies. In contrast to Dalton’s overindulgence, Daeron’s sack of Bitterbridge reflected a direct violation of norms surrounding surrender. Both actions undermined the legitimacy of their campaigns, but in distinct ways:

Dalton at Lannisport: Started as a strategic action but escalated due to lack of discipline, leading to unnecessary harm. Daeron at Bitterbridge: Represented a deliberate betrayal of surrender terms, entirely unjustified.

Truly, I LOVE this post, thanks! I WILL be using this post often!

[wpmorse]

A Clash of Kings - The Tourney

This is madness, Catelyn thought. Real enemies on every side and half the realm in flames, and Renly sits here playing at war like a boy with his first wooden sword.

A Clash of Kings - Chapter 19 - Catelyn

For our next drawing, we follow Catelyn Tully to Bitterbridge to parlay with King Renley Baratheon. When she arrives she sees all of the Knights of Summer having a tourney.

I've been looking forward to this chapter since this is where we meet Brienne. Technically she isn't introduced for another couple of pages when she takes her helmet off. But before we know who she is we get to see her drop Red Ronnet Connington as if he wasn't there.

[westerosims]

In the Battle at Stonebridge nine thousand Poor Fellows faced off against Maegor’s army. The Faith was led by Wat the Hewer, a fearsome warrior who ripped through dozens of the King’s men. Wat managed to take down Lord Meadows, the commander of Maegor’s forces, before his capture. It is said the Mander ran red with blood for twenty leagues. After the slaughter, Stonebridge was forever known instead as Bitterbridge.

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

I just found out they are putting Maelor in season three, I think? I guess that answers my question if they are just skipping Daeron burning down Bitterbridge.

I can't help but wonder if they are going to make things tragic and have Helena and Maelor both die at Bitterbridge and have Daeron go mad with grief.

Not that it takes away from your point, I'm just curious if you think that's the way they might go.

I have a feeling they're going to keep Helaena's suicide in King's Landing, possibly in an "empowering" "the dreams told me to bring about the death of dragons" kind of way. Either way, Helaena's death triggering a riot is a very key moment, and they'll include it regardless of whether it still makes sense.

Daeron could still go mad with grief if just Maelor died... but either way it would still be pretty impactless considering he has no onscreen relationship with his siblings and was sent away at a young age and will never meet Maelor. Plus it isn't just Daeron committing war crimes, it's Ormund too, and frankly being so mad with grief that you commit war crimes is the kind of writing they usually reserve for female characters. Male characters just get to commit war crimes and people still like them (Tyrion Lannister, Aemond Targaryen, Tywin Lannister, Hoster Tully...).

And tbh, I have zero patience for "I committed war crimes because I'm sad" as a storyline. ASOIAF as a series does not shy away from how dehumanisation of the smallfolk under feudalism results in horrific violence and war crimes by the nobility, especially by the side that decided to start a war*[see tangent below the cut].

Another issue is that since Helaena is not visibly pregnant any retcon for Maelor would have to be towards the very end of the season. Which creates issues for the timeline of events - Ormund is at Bitterbridge but Ormund is supposed to be dead by the time of Tumbleton, which is the cause of Rhaenyra's paranoia and alienation of the Velaryons and losing her grip on the city and eventually the riots etc. There's simply too much that happens after Bitterbridge for it to take place that late in the season, though I guess it depends on what the end point of season 3 is planned to be (based on how season 2 ended it may well just... end randomly with a whimper).

But then that leaves the question of what the hell are the characters going to do while waiting for Maelor to be born, even with the planned finale of season 2 now taking place at the start of season 3 (what a mess). I guess before Bitterbridge there's Daeron coming to Ormund's rescue and getting the moniker "Daeron the Daring", but other than that?

It certainly begs the question of how on earth is Ormund the biggest new addition of the season. Why is Condal so hyped about Ormund? The most significant things Ormund does in the story is a) babysit and commit war crimes with Daeron, a character Condal is having to hastily retcon into existence and b) massacre a town that had already surrendered over the death of Maelor, another character Condal tried to write out and now can't plausibly turn up until late in the season.

Considering the amount of backlash it took for Condal to realise he made a big whoopsie with Daeron and Maelor (but not Nettles - she needed to go so we could focus on Hugh Hammer, Ulf the White and Sexy Freddie Fox) I'm not sure what has attracted him to Ormund (or what attracted him to Hugh Hammer, Ulf the White, Sexy Freddie Fox, Tyland Lannister going on Alyn's post-dance adventures for some damn reason...).

At this point I'm not convinced Ormund isn't just an excuse for a sexy TG Good Guy (or "Misunderstood") White Guy OC. With Ormund's name slapped on top. Because Condal is so uninterested by the actual characters in the story.

This is the guy who found sending Sexy Freddie Fox on a bro trip with Criston more interesting than fleshing out Baela. This is the guy who found the Aegon Goons more worthy of screentime than Jace's relationship with Cregan Stark. This is the guy who decided to invent two OCs to die at the Battle of Burning Mill in the place of Samwell Blackwood and Amos Bracken, so we spend time with them squabbling over the Riverlands Geneva Convention instead of introducing Black Aly and Bloody Ben.

This is the guy who found Hugh Hammer and Ulf the White more interesting than Nettles. More interesting than Alyn and Addam. This is the guy who read a story in which two teenage brothers answer the call for dragonriders, in which the older brother gets a dragon while the little brother does not, in which the little brother goes on a desperate dangerous hunt for a wild dragon so he can be like his big brother, in which his big brother comes to his rescue but he is left with burns for life and has to find his own way by following in his seafaring grandfather's footsteps...

...And he decided that was not interesting. Condal decided to spend time with Ulf goofing in the tavern and giving Hugh a wife and child. While Alyn and Addam are aged up and dullified (what happened to Alyn being a cocky little teenage shit who gets under the adults skin? What did they do to him??). Hugh and Ulf get to answer the call for dragonriders, they get established motivations for doing so and their agency in answering the call tells us something about their character (they are brave, they are desperate, they are ambitious).

Addam gets a dragon dropped on him and just wants to be loyal. Alyn doesn't even consider a dragon. He gets what I swear is the same scene with Corlys 3x about how he saved his life that one time, then the only agency he and his brother display is telling Corlys to fuck off. Addam doesn't even get to have his big hero moment - Hugh Hammer gets the hero moment in the dumb Dragonseed Squid Game scene.

Apologies for going off on a long tangent (and for not being done). But Ormund is part of a very annoying pattern with Condal.

Personally I think Ormund could have been an interesting character for his presumed influence on Daeron. Daeron has a strange reputation for being the gentlest of his brothers despite committing horrific war crimes. But he is young and he does appear to be upset by Hugh and Ulf's war crimes at Tumbleton (note: Jace is the same age and burns exactly 0 towns to the ground when he's grieving Luke). So reading between the lines there is scope for Ormund being the one moulding Daeron into war crimes, for pushing against Daeron's gentle nature and instilling a culture of violence against peasants (my sympathy for Daeron as a Sad Boy War Criminal is limited in this regard, but I guess its psychologically interesting).

But again, when is this supposed to take place without Maelor? What was the original plan for Ormund if both Maelor and Daeron's existence are last minute retcons? Since he's the biggest new addition to the cast, since he's so present in the trailers, surely season 3 was planned around him having a major role even before fan pressure forced these retcons?

Based on Condal's track record, I flat out do not trust him.

Another tangent - Daeron and the Caltrops (especially rapist Jon Roxton) hatred of Hugh and Ulf would also have been interesting... because they are guilty of exactly the same crimes. As a pair of dragonriders they are admittedly more dangerous, but there is an interesting psychological and classist displacement at play. Ormund Hightower and Daeron Targaryen's war crimes are Good and Noble, Hugh and Ulf are Low Class and Gross Upstarts.

So far it looks like Condal is setting up giving Hugh and Ulf the story of "working class characters who are wrongly villainised by the nobility", which is a) Addam and Nettles story and b) unneccessary since "working class characters who are hypocritically villainised" was already an interesting story and commentary (not every bad guy needs to be a misunderstood good guy to add depth to a story).

Imagine Daeron feeling guilty about the crimes he committed at Bitterbridge, crimes he did with Ormund's encouragement. But with Ormund dead (and being unable to face his own responsibility) he displaces his anger to Hugh and Ulf. He swiftly gives the Caltrops his blessing to kill Hugh and Ulf, but it isn't justice because the Caltrops themselves are not punished for their crimes (and Unwin Peake will go on to murder Daeron's own niece Jaehaera).

That's what makes it narratively fitting that Daeron has kind of a pathetic death via collapsed tent - being gentle and having the potential to be a good person wasn't enough. He never atoned for what he did. There's no redemption, no heroics, no justice.

Contrast that to Daemon, who orders the assassination of a child (unless you subscribe to the theory it was all Mysaria). He agrees that he has lived too long. His last acts are to send Nettles away to safety (call her a love interest, call her a daughter figure) and face Aemond alone. He sacrifices himself to kill another (worse) war criminal, who beheaded and burnt alive so many more children.

*Another another tangent (I am the tangent bear, it is a bad idea to poke the tangent bear because you get many many tangents). GRRM is good at treading this line; he'll condemn both Starks and Lannisters for violence against the smallfolk, but their motives for going to war still matter and shape their conduct - Tywin's war crimes are worse.

And it's the same with the Dance. The Greens chose to start a war, and while both sides commit atrocities there is a notable difference in the number of towns and keeps that get destroyed. Dalton Greyjoy raids Lannisport and Fair Isle, but a) the greens wanted to recruit him too to do the same b) Dalton is a rogue wild card who ignored all orders to stop even when the war was over and c) the green's tally of destruction include Bitterbridge, Tumbleton, Spicetown, High Tide, White Willow, Old Willow, Hog's Hall, Merrydown Dell, just Aemond in general setting fire to the whole trident, not to mention beheading all the children of House Strong...and Aegon hanging 200 ratcatchers and burning 241 people alive along Shepherd's Way in a gross little light show...

TB only used their dragons to scare King's Landing into surrendering. For all people screamed "whitewashing" when Show Rhaenyra said she wanted to use the dragons as deterrance, that is literally what she did.

[horizon-verizon]

Maelor getting torn apart by the mob, so much love for the son of a beloved queen. And notice how the smallfolk did nothing to save Alicent when she was imprisoned.

*EDITED--added how Rhaenyra is not that to blame for Maleor's death and why*

Some people will counterargue that the smallfolk who killed Maelor was different from the ones at KL...

The smallfolk at Bitterbridge were a different, Alicent-less people. However, Alysanne Targaryen made sure that the right of the first night was abolished for ALL smallfolk and lords from the North to the Stormlands.

Alicent was also intelligent enough to at least try to argue or use her Consort influence on the king to make better reforms for the smallfolk of the entire realm, but she didn't.

While she did not have the bond with Viserys that Alysanne had with Jaehaerys, their marriage was never that contentious either (until we get to the Vhagar incident, and even then Viserys is the type of guy to want to put out a benevolent image to his subjects, why not take advantage of that?).

This goes further to prove how Alicent was way more concerned with what her public acts of charity could do for her image than for actual care and change for the smallfolk. Her interests in the smallfolk are mainly for her aristocratic goals, not their wellbeing.

And it shows in how Maelor was treated more as an object to be made money or get any sort of benefits from in a crowd of desperate and angry smallfolk [quote], rather than a child royal of a supposedly beloved woman and grandson of another supposedly beloved woman.

Rhaenyra did put out wanted notices with reward prizes for Maelor, which wasn't the smartest thing so much as the most convenient and first thing amidst a time of instability for her short reign. But, Maelor's disappearance itself was not her fault, she never mistreated him and there was no attempt on his life in the Keep, so there was no reason to think he was in danger there. That Maelor was even out of the castle and safety is due to Larys Strong.

Once again, how did the war start? Aside from Jaehaerys and his misogyny, who began the war?