#dark mentor

[agentrouka-blog]

How do you think that Ary@'s escape from the Braavos is going to play out in the books cuz I really doubt that they wil just simply let her go to Westeros since they are basicly the Death cult mafia

I know!

It's probably going to mirror the escapes of Sansa and Bran from their dark mentors. Something abrupt and dangerous.

Perhaps Jon can offer a blueprint. His stint with the wildlings was sealed with a "human sacrifice" - Qhorin Halfhand died at his hand - and so did Arya kill a merchant for the Faceless Men, Sansa falsely testified against Marillion and Bran ate a suspiciously bloody paste and witnessed a past human sacrifice before the Winterfell heart tree.

When Jon escaped the wildlings, he refused to murder an innocent to prove himself, and it would have doomed him if he had not received unexpected outside help from Summer and the old man's horse.

I imagine Arya, Sansa and Bran will fail to fulfill an obligation or request placed on them. Potentially, a specific second kill, or something else in conflict with their mentor's goals.

Like Jon, they may receive unexpected help, escape to a temporary reprieve, and eventually end up using their mentor's teachings against them to foil their plans and succeed in bringing about a much better outcome. 

It’s hard to say who this unexpected outside help for Arya would be. She has made some friends in Braavos as “Cat”, especially the ladies of the Happy Port, and we have seen her develop her warging powers, which she has kept carefully secret. It is a cat who helps her figure out that the kindly man had been the one attacking her with a stick, and she managed to hit back. A similar trick might be enough to buy her the time to run, and seek shelter with any number of her friends around the Ragman’s Harbor.

The “sorry sway-backed horse” that helped Jon escape, that is “blown” by the time he makes it to Mole’s Town, could be mirrored in a bedraggled elderly ship with which Arya might leave Braavos behind, perhaps in danger of sinking by the time they make it to Westeros. 

[agentrouka-blog]

Cersei said that love is a poison but a sweet poison. Arianne thinking about Darkstar said that he was a poison but a sweet poison. Ironically both were deceived by Targ looking guys Aurane Waters and Darkstar.

Incidentally, love was not involved in either case. Deception was. Attraction and carelessness.

Poison, thought Arianne. Yes. Pretty poison, though. That was how he'd fooled her. Gerold Dayne was hard and cruel, but so fair to look upon that the princess had not believed half the tales she'd heard of him. Pretty boys had ever been her weakness, particularly the ones who were dark and dangerous as well. That was before, when I was just a girl, she told herself. I am a woman now, my father's daughter. I have learned that lesson. (TWOW, Arianne II)

Sweet poisons are a term GRRM likes to use in reference to manipulation hidden under the guise of affection or flattery. It occurs quite frequently.

Cersei is the one who connects the term to love. In conversation with Sansa.

"Everyone wants to be loved."

"I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same." (ACOK, Sansa IV)

Who has ever been killed by love? No one. Fear, anger, greed, hunger for power, cold unfeeling lack of compassion, selfish opportunism, yes to all. But love?

It fits into the same dark mentor theme as what Lord Commander Mormont or Maester Aemon serve Jon.

"They say the king loved to hunt. The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that. My son loved that young wife of his. Vain woman. If not for her, he would never have thought to sell those poachers." (AGOT, Jon VII)

Yet it wasn't hunting that killed Robert. It was Cersei, because she hated him and because she knew he would murder her children and execute her. It was not Lynesse that made Jorah turn slaver, it was his own vanity and lack of integrity.

"So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."

That did not sound right to Jon, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night's Watch; it was not his place to contradict him. (AGOT, Jon VIII)

It doesn't sound right because it's wrong.

Cersei is wrong, too. It's not love that kills.

The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove. (AGOT, Bran II)

It's not love. It's the desire to have it all. To break every rule without consequence. To circumvent reality at the expense of others.

Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." (AGOT, Eddard IX)

It's not love that kills. It's the things you do in its name, the things you try to justify by invoking love. The lies that can be spun around love and the desire for it.

The sweet poisons are only ever lies. They cover up a person's true nature. Love reveals it.

[agentrouka-blog]

Think about Sansa using what she learns from Cersei or Littlefinger to serve her people instead of serving herself. Of Bran using what he learns from Bloodraven to serve the people too instead of the monarchy.

Arya using what she learns from the Faceless Men for justice instead of empty, quasi-religious moneymaking or vengeance.

Jon using what he learns from the wildlings to unite, rather than divide, disparate peoples for their mutual benefit.

Rickon using whatever he learns on Skagos hunting unicorns to be a happy little boy waaaaaaaah.

Starklings, go forth and do better.

[agentrouka-blog]

I think SweetRobin dying and then LF gaslighting Sansa in order to have his grips on her makes sense. Grrm did say that characters will be at their lowest in TWOW . After that they will emerge victorious ( delivering justice within Winterfell after meeting Jeyne and her siblings ) . Also the guilt of being involved in her cousin's death something which I could see LF gaslighting her could take a mental toll upon her . Also all the child heirs- Shireen, Rickon, SweetRobin, Tommen and Myrcella , I could see them dying. I think SweetRobin's death could pave way for Harrold succeeding him ( though he will eventually die too ) in leading the Vale forces North to help her betrothed regain her home back. Also the theme of " triumph at what cost " also encapsulates perfectly. SweetRobin's survival and just I don't know makes the narrative look quite easy for Sansa . It's going to be hard for each of our Starklings before things go normal . Arya will be deepening in guilt with whatever violence and trauma she had to endure , meeting Stoneheart . Similar will be Bran who might harbour guilt for the death of an innocent ( Hodor ) . I think Sansa's could be similar too.

Hi anon!

The thing with Sweetrobin is that he is the rightful heir in Littlefinger's grasp. The bird in the hand. Being his stepfather (and bribing a few Vale lords, and Cersei's command to see him unharmed) is the ONLY reason he is Lord Protector of the Vale. Remove Sweetrobin, and Littlefinger is out because Harry is a grown man and needs no regents. Killing Sweetrobin would be self-sabotage. He could go off packing to Harrenhal.

The reason he is spending time and money on making the betrothal to "Alayne" happen right now is the fact that Harry is still only an heir with few prospects outside of that, he is not independently rich or impressive on his own. His aunt can chastise him and pressure him into marriage right now. Not once Sweetrobin is dead. He'll be everyone's boss then.

If the betrothal happens, Harry is locked into Littlefinger's influence by oath. He cannot marry someone else and father legal heirs without tainting his honor. This is a good status quo for Littlefinger to wait and see how things develop. During this time, he still needs Sweetrobin alive. Because while dishonorable, a betrothal can still be broken, especially if one party is a lowly bastard girl and the other the next thing to a king.

But even so, a marriage to "Alayne" would be impossible because she doesn't exist and a marriage to Sansa is impossible because she is already married, so he cannot lock down Harry in this final way and have control over Harry's future legal heir by Sansa. Would Harry go to the trouble of fighting for Sansa's rights - when she is already married! - if he already has the full power of his new title and could marry anyone he wanted?

So he still needs Sweetrobin alive until Tyrion turns up dead or an annullment becomes feasible. Harry the Heir is much less independently powerful and may be swayed by the prospect of glory in battle and the appeal of his future wife's inheritance. Because Sweetrobin might not die.

And even if they marry, who's to say that Harry will allow himself to be influenced by Sansa in any way? What power would Littlefinger truly have once he hands his not-daughter Sansa Stark over to him? Unless he is still Lord Protector, none. So he still needs Sweetrobin alive.

Of course, for Littlefinger to keep full control, Harry definitely needs to die as soon as Sansa has had a child by him. That baby is the new Sweetrobin for Littlefinger to base his power on.

And only then would it be safe for Sweetrobin to die. If he can be replaced with a new child heir in Littlefinger's control.

So while there would be angsty potential, there is very little logic in the idea that Littlefinger actively wants Sweetrobin to die any time soon. He just wants the idea to be firmly established as an expectation, because it increases Harry's importance and reduces doubt if/when he actually does die.

Besides, Littlefinger has already trapped Sansa in a dangerous lie. Testifying that Marillion killed Lysa is Sansa's darkest act by far, hands down, in the entire book series, and while we understand her motivations and are privy to her inner conflict, from the outside it makes her look like she went from kingslaying Joffrey to conspiring to kill the leader of the Vale (kinslaying her aunt!) all in a, what, span of a few months? If Littlefinger really wanted to milk it, he could bring up how she came to Cersei when Ned wanted to send her away from KL. Then he could bring up her "complicity" in trying to poison Sweetrobin.

He could gently imply his ability to ruin her reputation far worse than Jaime's, and make Sansa feel like she earned it. She already feels guilt over Marillion. Even though he was a rapist actively helping Lysa try to kill her. Sweetrobin doesn't have to die for Sansa to struggle with the consequences of her choices.

Also: In what universe has Sansa had it easy in the narrative? Being beaten, molested and forced into marriage, used as a tool for murder? She is the Stark with the absolute least amount of personal agency. And still where she has the opportunity, she usually chooses to help, to be compassionate, even to her enemies. She downright berates herself for it. That contrast to Arya and Bran is not a narrative "easy" path, it is an expression of her character and a different angle on enduring hardship. Sansa is not less of a character for being a good person. It is not easy. It is hard. And worthy.

Making hard choices will be part of Sansa's path, but neither does she artificially have to match the darkness of Arya's violent path, nor does Sweetrobin have to die to make it happen.

[agentrouka-blog]

No, seriously, I never realized until now how satisfying it is that Jon is using everything his abuser Ygritte taught him about the wildings to now get them to protect the Wall she hated so much.

I... I love that for him.

[agentrouka-blog]

I wasn't thinking of parallels when I mentioned Robb's bride being the sword, but reading your Dany post you reblogged this morning, Dany calls herself "bride of dragons" in the next chapter. And then, in ACOK, she refers to herself as "bride of fire." That seems intentional to me? There's also the Watch's "our wife is duty" and Bran's choice to "wed" the trees. Are those all interconnected? If Robb and Dany's choice of what to wed portend their fate, what do we do with Bran's choice?

Hi! I love this ask because it creates a very specific parallel between our three future monarchs.

We have, after all, another currently unfortunately married Starkling: Sansa.

Her marriage traps her under the hypothetical power of Tyrion, changes her identity on the surface. But while she says the vows, the marriage is not consumated. It does not stop her from abandoning her "husband" and pursuing her own goals. And we know this marriage will end, one way or the other.

Another previously “married” Starkling was Jon, at least in the eyes of his dark mentor/captor/”protector” Ygritte. He too abandoned her when the opportunity arose and he never truly “turned his cloak”. Marital imagery is consistently subverted with them, and eventually she was the author of her own destruction, killed by her own favorite weapon, even, by arrow.

Robb’s wife is not so easily left behind. He married Jeyne, but the sword remained his true wife.

And Dany not only married the fire. She is of the fire: daugher of death, bride of fire, mother of dragons. It defines her every aspect now. I see no annullment on the horizon.

Bran, on the other hand, is likely to follow the footsteps of Sansa and Jon.

[agentrouka-blog]

Isn't Arya's training in Braavos except the sleath killing very similar to Sansa's training in courtly charm and intrigue ?

Hi there!

I wouldn’t necessarily say so.

The training Sansa received in courtly charm, i.e. “courtesy”, happened at home. It was imparted at the hands of Catelyn and Septa Mordane. To both girls, btw, although Arya is more than once mentioned to struggle with remembering it. This encompasses basically all the rules of social custom, from formal adress to rituals of greeting and all the formulaic steps of mutual reassurance that make their society run smooth, as well as the structures of hierarchy. They all know the rules and not adhering to them is its own kind of language. Watch Tyrion complain about lack of courtesy from Robb in Winterfell. Empty, cool and false courtesies are frequently mentioned, but their importance as a social “lubricant” is absolutely universally recognized.

The “training” Sansa receives in intrigue is mostly as its object for the longest time. She doesn’t conspire with the Hound and Littlefinger doesn’t teach her anything until he is overwhelmed with glee when he successfully pulled her into his power at the very end of ASOS. It’s strictly her own observations and her own mistakes that she grows on. Much like Arya, who watches endless cruelty and feels miserable for keeping her head down and lies out of necessity and learns to do it really well.

Arya’s training in courtesy is not very fruitful, but it makes her more well-spoken than a boy like Gendry when she has need for it. But her training in Braavos is nothing like that. Thanking someone for a slap across the face because she forgot to control her facial muscles is not what courtesy is about. Being unreadable is not a social lubricant, not a shared language to fall back on. It is an icy demand to be truly false in order to disguise true intentions and reveal nothing. It is not constructive or protective. It is predatory. It cannot be separated from the stealth killing because that is its entire point.

Courtesy is expressive. Arya is not taught to connect to people, she is taught to control herself in order to manipulate them. It is the much darker, crueller version of Syrio’s training in self-control that had her practicing standing on one leg, or walking blind-folded. What was about self-awareness and ability with Syrio is about self-erasure with the Faceless Men. They truly blind her. They send her out to kill.

Courtesy is a lady’s armor. It protects Sansa. The faceless men don’t want to arm Arya of House Stark. They want to destroy her to make use of her.They teach her only enough to be of use to them.

Which is a lot closer to what Littlefinger wants with his “training” of Sansa as well. He may be obsessed with her, but he doesn’t care about her as a person. Only as a tool for his self-gratification. And he only teaches her what he wants her to know about intrigue. He is not a benevolent mentor. Sansa’s true teacher are her own observations. Just like Arya keeps her true self close to her heart, so does Sansa.

That’s the real similarity.

[agentrouka-blog]

I am seeing all this bird imagery in Sansa . Does it tie her in anyway to the Vale as far as her entire arc is concerned or is it something else differently? Many interpret it as her endgame is tied to the Vale which is I find something very difficult to digest after reading the Snow Winterfell Chapter .

Hello!

Does that mean Jon and Bran’s endgames are also tied to the Vale? Because their bird imagery is off the charts? Crow and raven and “flying” and all? 

Bird imagery is all over the book series, and has different levels of meaning. In the broadest sense, it represents flight, and as such a unique kind of power ripe with danger, tied to the image of Icarus. 

All of our Starklings are faced with different dark mentors and different versions of “flight”, and they respond in different ways.

Jon is a “crow”, one of his dark mentor figures, who represented a twisted and rotten version of what he wanted, was a bird-figure (Ygritte = egret) and he rejected that whole concept. He was then made Top Crow and while he tried hard, he failed to be the best leader because he listened to bad advice (kill the boy) and acted like a lone wolf, in spite of his good intentions. Probably, he’ll do better when he gets to be a Stark wolf again, not a lonesome crow. For all the bird imagery, there is very little focus on flying itself, which is promising for Jon.

Bran is most obviously tempted by the metaphorical power of flight by the Three-Eyed Crow, and he is from early on depicted as in danger of getting lost in it (warging into Summer) and already abusing his power by taking advantage of Hodor. His magical power is the greatest and he will likely need to use it for a special purpose. But he will reject the dark side, as well, and attain a more earthly power based on effort and duty rather than inherent magic and self-gratification.

Sansa is a “little talking bird”, and her power (courtesy, diplomacy) is mocked as useless and stupid, when it really is what has kept her alive, but she has also longed for “wings” to make her journey easier. Her dark mentor Littlefinger is a “mockingbird”, which plays into the little bird theme but puts the emphasis on falsehood. Meanwhile she is taking care of the true heir of the Vale (the “Sweetrobin”), who needs to become brave and strong in order to grow into his leadership role. So, in spite of Baelish’s tutelage, Sansa is really growing herself into her power. She will reject his offerings, and embrace a more earthly power. Like Jon, she has very little emphasis is on actual flight. The “wolf with bat wings” is a rumor. Sansa climbs up and down. Very promising.

Arya’s power of flight is less spelled out. She has a greater connection to water than to the sky, but it’s there. She looks at the black swans from afar, which are “so serene”, wanting to be one and eat one, both. Her relationship with power is less direct than her siblings’, her mentors not specifically birdlike. Her closest to flying imagery is the giant black-and-white butterfly of Naath which stealthily kills all invaders, which touches on her assassin training arc. Arya will reject the House of Black and White, and return home, but she will be free from a leadership position in the end. 

Contrast Dany: her power of flight is not a bird. It is the dragon, and she literally takes off into the air, exulting, and not caring about the people burning below. When Drogon roasts a horse alive, she hunkers down to eat. There is no reason to hope she will suddenly reject that power. She birthed that power herself. She is the Icarus who will fall and perish.

So, while the bird imagery is there, it is a metaphor for learning how to handle power. It is by no means whatsoever tied to a specific geographic location, nor does it somehow tie Sansa’s arc to the Vale.