you'll love the post that just went up on ST reddit
was it the mike and will's relationship to dnd one? that one was SO GOOD. i cannot overstate how great it was reading that and i think they put into such clear words what a lot of people feel makes dnd important to mike and will specifically out of the whole party. i did screenshot the post just in case 'cause i have not heard great things about reddit's ability to keep byler posts around.
i love the way they explored what dnd means to mike because i feel like it touches on something that mostly gets attention for will, but also points out how dnd makes mike more like how he used to be which i'm SO looking forward to in s5:
"It's glorious. Mike feels like Mike again-..." YES, i loved hellfire mike for this reason. you see a bit of him peek through with dnd and "have you ever thought that maybe we don't want to be popular?"
and pointing out how dnd is just so mike and will. not just individually, but what it means to them together then talking about what the development of their individual relationships to dnd signifies about their relationships to each other SO GOOD
and the implications of the painting lie. because of all that. this is what makes me so excited for the painting reveal. it feels like it directly hits on their relationship on multiple levels in ways that have been present since their introductions. it's such a good setup and this is such a good articulation of that.
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Anyways, that's not all that was in the post. the whole thing is so cohesive so if anyone is interested, i would 100% go read it. go read it rn. and then talk to me about it pls
Finn said the Duffers planned the monologue since the near beggining and later he said he prefers mileven because it started at the beggining.
Ur ship is never gonna happen sweetie
hey!!!!! my first hate(?) anon, how's it goin'?
Y'know what, weirdly enough those things actually give me more hope that mileven was written to break up (and consequently have byler happen).
If the monologue was planned for that long and the Duffers were really building up to it to be this big, amazing love confession, they kinda fumbled the bag ngl. It ended up being full of all kinds of cliches (love at first sight like the writers have said they don't believe in on their twitter) and lacked any sort of romantic chemistry (Will had to push Mike to say ily in the first place).
It was just pretty disappointing all around. If I wanted mileven to happen, I would've been pissed. El deserved to hear much more than cliches and how about all the stuff she could do with her powers all over again. Why couldn't they just be more like lumax? Plenty of viewers are convinced of how much lumax care about each other and they didn't even need a big love confession. But so many viewers have stopped seeing the depth in Mike and El's relationship and don't care for it anymore. It kinda sucks because it was easy to agree in the first two seasons that they had this deep bond and love for each other, but not with these last two seasons when they start properly dating :/
And since this monologue was planned from the beginning like you said and I have more faith in the Duffer brothers as writers, that convinces me it was intentional for it to be like that. And if it was intentional, I can't imagine why other than to show Mike and El's relationship deteriorating. That mileven wasn't meant to last. The monologue wasn't meant to work and so it didn't in the show (they lost the battle for Hawkins) or for the audience at large.
As for what Finn said, I honestly don't care too much for what the actors say. I know David Harbour, who plays Hopper, literally said Hop was dead just for him to come back a season later. I would also never in a million years expect Finn to say he preferred byler just because that would give it away right then and there. But with him saying mileven, it could still go either way. It's also interesting to me that he added that "because of the beginning" part because that was really unnecessary. Why didn't he just say he liked mileven overall? Their relationship has changed so much from the beginning that he talked about that it makes me suspicious that he specified it like that.
And ultimately if byler doesn't happen, although all the writing decisions (especially in s4) seem to be headed that way, it won't be the end of the world. Byler could be a hugely historical moment in queer media history or it could not be. It's just a ship with a lot of potential at the end of the day. It's unecessary to come onto somebody else's byler blog and be condescending about it, you really don't need to be doing all that lmao. You can just go ahead and block me or the tags. I try to tag my posts as best as I can (with #byler or like #anti mileven) so people can enjoy mileven if they want to because that's totally fine. You stay out of my space and I'll stay out of yours so we can both enjoy the fandom, yeah?
Anyways, thanks for giving me the opportunity to talk about this and strengthen my byler confidence :) it's nice to spell out all my thoughts every once in a while like this. And even though we definitely disagree on this topic, I genuinely hope you have a good day and end up enjoying s5 once it finally drops
Lol what abt the pizza scene where Mike looks at El and giggles
what about it? i'm gonna be blunt, if a whole season of watching milkvan makeout in s3 wasn't enough to get me to throw out the possibility of a byler endgame, mike giggling at el is nothing.
and honestly, i really like that scene. it's nice to see mike and el get along and talk. it's a shame that that only seems to happen in the show before they officially date (s1-2) or after they've been separated. plus, i'm a big fan of the blasphemous fruity pizza "try before you deny" joke. it reminds me a lot of robin and vickie's "peanut butter monstrosity" sequence.
and of course this scene still aligns with how i understand the characters and how i think byler will happen. are you familiar with the cyrano trope, anon? i'm sure you've seen it before; it's everywhere in all sorts of romantic plotlines (for some quick examples, it's in both IT and the little mermaid).
-if you're familiar with the trope, you can skip the next few paragraphs to the part with all the colors-
it's basically when you have a main character that's madly in love with another, but for some reason can't/won't tell them. so what they do instead is create some sort of token of their love that represents how they feel about the love interest. this can be a letter, a song, a poem , a painting, etc. the love interest finds that token of love and falls in love with the person it's from because it's just such a genuine expression of true love that it makes them feel so deeply cared for, understood, and appreciated. it means a lot to them, basically.
but where the trope gets interesting is that the love interest attributes this token of love to the wrong person. this can be through miscommunication, an evil villain doing villain stuff, or the main character sacrificing their feelings because they believe it'd be better for their love to be with someone else (this is usually due to things like the mc believing they aren't attractive enough/don't have a good enough social standing/aren't good enough for their love interest in general). so they watch on as the love of their life gets into a relationship with someone else.
but of course, the love interest has to realize who the token of love was originally from so that the truth can be revealed. they then realize that the main character was who they wanted to be with all along and they end up together at the end. the moral of the story tends to be that real, true love will win out in the end and that you shouldn't hide it if you feel this way for someone. at the end of the day, it's how you love and appreciate someone that matters more than your social standing, circumstances, insecurities, etc.
now! using the magical power of putting two and two together, we can see how the setup of the cyrano trope applies to el, will, and mike.
the love interest -> mike, obviously
the token of love -> will's painting
which makes: our cyrano mc -> will himself
now for the trope to apply here fully, we need three things to be true: 1. the painting has to be will's true feelings for mike, 2. mike needs to be deeply moved by the painting, 3. mike needs to think the painting (and the feelings it expresses) are from someone other than will. so let's go through each:
1. is the painting and what will says after how he truly feels about mike?
this one is pretty easy to put together. will is waxing poetic about how amazing mike is while tearing up. he wouldn't be getting so emotional if he were just describing someone else's feelings here.
i feel like that's enough evidence, but here's some extra if you want more:
the painting can't be from el -> she writes in her letter to mike that she doesn't even know what will's been painting
el wouldn't have commissioned a painting from will -> el and will don't talk to each other about mike -> will tells mike at the roller rink that he didn't know that el had been lying to mike for months about their lives in cali
what will says about what the painting represents doesn't align with el's feelings for mike -> will says, "you make her feel better for being different" -> el shuts down mike's attempt to say he relates to being different and bullied during their fight, she tells him that he can't understand her because she is truly different from the world and him, she says to him "you think i'm a monster too" -> if someone really felt comforted and secure in another person's presence they wouldn't ask if they were seen as a monster by the other person, they wouldn't lie to the other for months or ask for help from their bully to keep lying, they would be able to confide in the other person not hide from them, the other person wouldn't be paralleled to their abusive father figure (who they leave behind by the end of the season) -> el just doesn't trust mike and doesn't feel better for being different around him
^ the only option is the painting and the feelings it represents being from will, not el
2. does the painting mean a lot to mike?
well, he smiles a lot as will gives it to him and gives will this look as he's explaining it:
so i'd say so.
but the real kicker is that will's explanation for the meaning behind the painting, which we established as will's feelings up above, comes back up when mike finally says "i love you" to el.
el had been crying, asking him to say it earlier in the season and he couldn't. he kept talking about it with will after and he still couldn't say it outright. it's only after will reminds him of what he said in the van "you're the heart!" that he is finally able to say the words.
there's a before and after there. the writers show a clear change in mike when it comes to something he's been dealing with all season and tie it back to the painting and what will said in the van all in the same scene.
because of that, we can conclude that it must have moved him to receive the painting since it literally moved his stance on one of his biggest struggles this season.
3. does mike think the painting is really from el instead of will?
it's hard to get into mike's mind this season as we have sort of shifted away from seeing things from his perspective after s2, but signs point to yes, he believes it's from el:
he doesn't talk to will about the painting -> if he saw through will's lie and the painting meant so much to him like we already said, it would be weird for him to not ask about will's feelings -> he would want to know truth about something that meant so much to him
but if he thinks it's from el, why doesn't he ask her about it? -> it seems he doesn't get much time to -> he and el get interrupted at the pizzeria, el doesn't talk to him after getting to hawkins
the painting was used to spur on a love confession to el, not will -> if the painting was tied to will in mike's mind, it would not have pushed him towards el -> he would have known that she didn't have anything to do with it and would have acted accordingly
(not from the show, so i wanna put these in their own little spot: plus we also have an interview with the duffer brothers saying that will was trying to express his feelings to mike in the van and mike "just doesn't get it and not in a bad way". he just doesn't understand. we also have finn saying that he asked about mike not noticing what will was going through in the van and being told that it will "pay off" later by the duffers. both of these confirm that mike isn't understanding that the painting is from will)
okay, finally back to the fruity pizza:
the key thing here is that the scene where will gives mike his painting happens before the pinneapple pizza scene. remember when i said that in the trope, the mc has to watch their love interest be with someone else after they receive the token of love until the truth is revealed? well, that's what happens in the pizzeria scene. will gives mike the painting, mike and el talk and laugh in the pizzeria, and then we cut to will looking at them sadly.
it's the proper setup of the cyrano trope. and from here, it's inevitable that mike will find out the truth about the painting in s5.
that's why the pizzeria scene isn't "threatening" to me or anything. it's perfectly in line with what i understand the show to be doing
if you've read this far, i just wanna say i'm so impressed and thank you so much :)) this was a loooooong one
Fulfilling your request to ask you about the "would i get crucified if i said it wasn't just mike that messed up, but will and el too" post. I'd love to hear your whole breakdown on it lol.
YYESSSS THANK YOU FOR ASKING! this whole love triangle thing they had going on in s4 was lowkey my roman empire because it was one of the first times i actually enjoyed the love triangle/miscommunication tropes so i love to think about how they did that. in my opinion, the fact that all three of them "messed up" in some way is so important because it's the key to why it works for me. they all created this unfortunate situation through their actions and assumptions that were nevertheless understandable (even mike, if you interpret him as gay) which makes it SO GOOD and complex to me. anyways, here's el and will for you, i'm gonna do a list format and explain each one under it:
i'm gonna start with el because i think she's a little easier to point out:
-she lied to mike for months through her letters
this one is actually kinda insane when you think about the amount of time and letters sent between s3 and s4. so, finding out your significant other has been lying to you is pretty sucky, but to find out they fabricated even the most mundane details of their life consistently for months for reasons you don't even know is another level of...just jesus. that relationship's got issues. we see mike in cali comment on everything from her friends to what she does on the weekends and he literally gets all of it wrong.
if we talk about their relationship having issues with communication, common ground, and them really knowing and appreciating each other as people, this is exactly what helped build that over the course of months and a whole book of letters. she actively pushed him away from knowing the real her and built up the lie he thought he was flying into in cali instead. the most opposite of good communication you can get, imo.
-she lied to mike's face in cali
this is related to the last point, but is another level of sad that i had to explain it separately. so we all saw her make up lies about rink-o-mania and angela being her friend. will even has to tell her that mike doesn't deserve to be lied to, but it doesn't seem like she really agrees? or cares enough to listen to will at all? instead she goes even further to a degree that i personally find insane. after the fiasco on the rink, she goes to ANGELA and asks her to continue lying to mike for her. ANGELA! who broke her model of hopper's cabin while she still thinks he's dead!
so she would rather talk to and ask things of her bully that has been tormenting her for months than talk to mike about it. she goes to such lengths to shut him out and we never really find out why and it's clear mike never does either. like he said, she knows he's been bullied before, she literally saw him jump off a cliff in s1, so why lie? why lie so hard? if mike wasn't so busy yelling at will about her lies, he would have every right to be upset with el for this.
-she was using mike, too
it's pretty clear that she was using to feel like a normal girl with a normal boyfriend. her life in cali may feel like a disaster to her, but for a girl in the 80s, having a boyfriend helps you achieve the normal, desirable life society pushes on you.
she doesn't seem to care much that he doesn't seem to like most of the plans she had for their first day in cali (burritos for breakfast and mike not knowing how to skate) or the fact that maybe he wouldn't like being lied to constantly lmao. she seems to want to have him perform this perfect relationship with her while disregarding any possible feelings he might have. ultimately, she acted like it was all about her.
-she pretended everything was fine in their relationship until it blew up in both of their faces
this is the natural conclusion of last few points tbh. she actively worked to create a relationship that was extremely emotionally disconnected and then was upset when he didn't really love her. okay that last sentence sounded kinda judgey, but i promise it's not. i think they both fucking did that shit, but people (rightfully) hate on mike a lot so the point for this is to focus on el.
for her problem with him never writing "love" on his letters, we see her clock this happening again with the flowers he brings. her face falls before she straightens it out and says the flowers are "perfect". we find out later that this problem has been happening for months because mike signs every card with "from", but we can tell from this scene that the first time el brings it up is during their argument. it's normal to be upset if you feel like your partner doesn't love you, but you also can't expect your partner to know how you feel and respond to the problems in your relationship if you never tell them. from what we know, el has been saying and making mike believe everything was "perfect" between them until she flipped how she was talking to him during the argument. if she had a problem with something he was doing for months, she should've made him aware before the cops and angela showed up, lmao.
-she very actively left will out and forced him into third wheeling
this is something that i think people forget el did too, not just mike, so i wanted to point it out. it was el that planned a whole day for her and mike specifically and left out will. she says something like "i want today to be about me and you" to mike which causes will to crumple up the painting behind them which was fucking PAINFUL to watch. she also constantly pushes will back when he tries to enter into the conversation and confront her lies. so yeah, not super nice.
okay, and now it's will time:
-will didn't call mike at all
so this one makes sense if you consider how mike acted towards will in s3 and how will might wait for mike to make the first move towards maintaining their friendship after that. the problem is, it seems like mike did do that from what we can tell. will tells us that mike reached out and called him "a couple times" during the rink-o-mania fight. it also makes sense for mike to think that their relationship was out of that rough patch during their scene at the end of s3 ("what if you find another party?" "not possible"). you see what i mean? it could be that from mike's perspective, he did hold up his end of their unspoken deal.
now this is the juicy part: we know mike called. A LOT. when el spies on the hawkins crew in the void, dustin says that mike has been complaining nonstop about not being able to get through to the byers because joyce's telemarketer job keeps the phone constantly busy. so from mike's perspective, he called a whole bunch, only got through a couple times meanwhile will never called him AT ALL. it would've been way easier for will to call since he'd be able to know when his mom was working or not, but he didn't. instead mike had to try and try and almost constantly get busy tones just to talk to will a couple times while will didn't try to call back. for reasons we as the audience, but not mike, are privy to, will just didn't make the effort.
(just a note: we also know he was calling for will and not el because we know mike sent el the letters because they were afraid of the government tracking the phones. he wouldn't be calling jonathan or joyce so......he was calling for will)
-mike probably thought will had moved on in cali after telling him he wouldn't
relating to the last point, but making it it's own separate point because that last one was getting too long. so will told mike that it wasn't possible for him to find another party in cali (aka move on from mike), but then he goes to cali, stops calling, he (or at least el) seem to have a thriving social life, and he starts a painting. for a girl. something he has never been interested in before.
it would make sense if mike felt like he was suddenly being left behind and forgotten by his best friend. he and will's relationship becomes distant in a way it never has before and he has what he thinks is "proof" that will is changing with some girl coming into the equation. mike is losing will and because will doesn't reach out to communicate, mike is only left with a couple pieces of will's life to put together what he thinks is going on. it all paints a grim picture for their friendship.
-will lied about the painting and el's feelings
this is will's big one, oh god. so, it's wrong to put words in someone else's mouth, especially about something as personal as a relationship. we can tall why he does it in the moment, but that still doesn't make it okay. especially for a relationship that already struggles with honesty and communication, yikes. mike and el deserve a relationship built on honesty and trust, and will is directly inserting himself here in a MAJOR way that directly gets in the way of that. he is the one that props up their relationship on a lie (why the show never decided to address, idk, but who gives a fuck about canon anymore when it was that shit anyway).
even if el did feel the exact way will assumes she does, it's still a problem. el not being able to say this herself is a problem. mike saying "i love you" because of will and not el is a problem. mike thinking that will's words are honestly addressing parts of himself he made vulnerable in that moment without knowing there's a big lie involved is a problem. it's a huge problem waiting to wreak havoc on all their relationships (if the writers did their jobs). and even if mike and el never find out about it, that just makes it even fucking sadder, doesn't it? the writers using will like a tool and refusing to address the painting lie deprive mike and el of any sort of honest love by the end :'/
and i just want to make it clear, i am by no means saying this makes them anything close to terrible people, i just think these are important parts of what make them and their relationships interesting. i love that they did these things because they're so understandable for where they're coming from and the circumstances they're dealing with and i wish more people would consider this rather than constantly talking about mike (which is also understandable since he was the lynchpin for the love triangle and honestly, his character writing sucked the most. at least the other 2 seemed to have some substance by the end, even if it was atrocious. mike is just so...nothing. the people wanted to be fed, man!). i just feel like the complexities el and will bring to their relationships is a goldmine for making shit interesting too, if that makes sense.
all in all, they all fucked up to varying degrees and i love that for them <3
i also had to edit out all my personal theories as to why they both did these things because this post got wayyyy too long lmao
Dude mileven is right there and has so much more material than byler
Kid, learn
DUDE LMAOOOOOO ok ok hold on hold on
you mean this material?
that material you're talking about is there and guess what? it's building up to them breaking up:
yeah, suuuper healthy. i totally love this and want this for both el and mike since i want them to be happy.
also, wtf is "kid, learn" supposed to be? if learning means lacking any media literacy or analytical skills to the point that i can no longer see what's going on right in front of me, nah i'm good
1. why didn’t they make it more explicit that mike is gay
2. why did mike accidentally say he loved el in the cabin
3. why did they wait till the end of the show for byler
(i’m a raging byler btw, these just trip me up)
HI thanks so much for sending this in! seriously it's so much fun to respond to ppl :))
i love the points you sent over bc they're all things i've thought abt before, especially 2. that one used to trip me up a bit so i'm gonna save that one for last:
1. and 3. okay, i wanted to put these two together just because i think they have some overlap. if they made mike more explicitly gay before s5, with will being confirmed gay and in love with him, it would make byler so obvious. that then leads into the question, "well, why wait till the end for byler then? why not make it obvious?" i personally have a few reasons for this:
-with it being the last season, there's no risk of the show being cancelled. unfortunately, netflix doesn't have the best track record for keeping queer shows around (*cough cough* i am not okay with this). i'm not sure how big of an issue this would be for stranger things given that it practically made the company what it is today, but it's one of those factors that limits a lot of queer stories in the mainstream, so it's something to consider.
-they'd also have less to worry about if there's homophobic backlash or lost viewers. since having a queer storyline, especially among main characters, is bound to be controversial, stranger things could've lost support and view counts going into s5 if they had made byler canon. this would be a sucky reason for them to hold off on byler if it was the only reason, but it can also be understandable. if netflix got pissy about losing money, they might have been more prone to meddling in the last season. it would also definitely hurt the creatives behind the show to have people stop caring about the art they've put years into. i've seen posts of people saying they'll "boycott" ST if byler went canon and by waiting till the final season, they essentailly render that threat useless. you watch the final season to boycott what? rewatching? it could be a smart decision on their part for that reason and i think it is also worth it to note that by waiting till s5 for byler, they're making it much more likely that these homophobic viewers will watch a queer storyline until the end, which can only be a net positive instead of risking them abandoning it halfway. it might change their minds, who knows
-my favorite reason: the themes/character arcs weren't ready for it. truth-telling is a big part of stranger things with "friends don't lie" and all that. s4 is the season that doesn't go well for the characters or for this theme. all of the characters end up lying/hiding something. el lies to mike for months about her life in cali, mike acts different than who he is in cali and tries to lie to el about saying ily to her face ("i say it" "you can't even write it, mike"), will lies to mike about the painting. this isn't even just unique to the cali plot as all of the vecna victims in hawkins are hiding something. chrissy, max, patrick, fred-they all hid what they were going through and that ultimately made them victims ("conformity is what's killing the kids"). i mean, this makes sense given that vecna's curse is an allegory for depression and suicidal ideation, so not speaking their truths makes the depression/vecna's curse worse and is therefore not a good thing for our characters to do.
okay paragraph break. s4's ending is explicitly a loss for our characters (mike saying to will that, "[el's] never lost before" in the cabin). hawkins is in ruins. max is in a coma. things are not great. s4 is the setup of the low point in the story so that s5 can come in and resolve it to conclude the show. i don't think it's a coincidence that s4 is lie-ridden and is also the season where everything goes wrong i wonder if mike's confession giving el the power of love failing has anything to do with this theme of lying bringing about bad consequences hmm. what it sets up is a thematically consistent s5 where our characters develop by learning to tell the truth and eventually save the day because of it. now, what does this have to do with byler? well you can probably see where this is going...
...byler happening would involve some deep truths from both mike and will. it's way easier to lie to yourself and those around you about being straight in the 80s than it is to come out as gay. especially if they are going for an internalized homophobia arc with mike as many bylers like myself believe, lying and pretending to be straight would perfectly fit the bill of a lie that mike has to grow out of in s5. so it's because byler is the truth that we have to wait until s5 to see it be canon. having it happen any earlier would have resulted in a tonal mismatch and some thematic weirdness and just overall worse writing. now, i also think byler is specifically something that absolutely had to wait until s5 because it's going to be important in the upcoming plot. the painting has to come back up again a la chekhov's gun and it being the first time will has ever lied to mike (also them taking way longer to film the van scene in comparison to other scenes and it being so exhausting for the actors, that i think just shows how important this plot point will be). we also know from interviews that the duffers plan to have will's emotional arc be the thing that ties together the end of the whole show. that excites me so much because they focused on will's feelings for mike and his queerness all of s4, so that emotional arc 100% will have to deal with that. we also know mike is going to get a big focus next season along with his emotional arc. with these characters being on a show that loves honesty and has a villain that literally preys on the things that people are too afraid to talk about, there has to be a reveal of some truth for these characters and it has to affect how they will eventually defeat vecna and save the day. milkvan wouldn't be a reveal of any truths, it'd be a continuation of the status quo, and so i just don't see how that reveal could be anything but byler after watching s4 (i mean, they literally set up a cyrano trope with will's painting and one of the core plot beats of that trope is that the truth about who truly loves the love interest has to be revealed. s4's cali plot was also so focused on the willelmike love triangle that it would be bizarre for that not to be a setup for s5).
i also think they made the hints towards mike being gay more evident in his actions (kissing el with eyes open, not being able to balance el and will in his life, not hugging will, etc) as opposed to hinting at it through external means like with will (him getting called homophobic slurs, characters pointing out he's not interested in girls, etc at least until s4). i honestly think these hints towards mike being gay end up being more subtle, especially for the ga, because we're not used to queer characters existing in shows that aren't centered around being queer (think heartstopper or anything marketed as a queer story). when queer characters are almost never depicted within a genre as anything other than minor side characters, villains, or just stereotypes, the audience has been taught to only recognize those characters in those roles. so while i do think some of mike's queercoding is closer to being explicit than people give it credit for (why so many byler shippers talk about all the stuff he does being gay as opposed to will, earlier byler fanfictions being focused on mike being gay and potentially being rejected by a straight will), i think it tends to go over most people's heads especially if they're not queer themselves.
you can skip this next part btw, a side note/rant on the history of queer characters in film: if you want to learn more about how the depictions of queer characters in media has evolved over time and why they even started being depicted that way in the first place i'd highly recommend looking up the hays code. the hays code was a set of censorship rules hollywood applied to itself to try and avoid being policed by the us government. in those rules, there were things like gay characters not being allowed to be depicted unless they were villains or "punished" for being gay by the end (which usually resulted in death). that's where the "bury your gays" trope and the "ever-suffering queer" trope and the "gay villain" trope have their roots because that was the only way queer characters were allowed to exist. a lot of queercoding was also developed during this time to try and get around the censors. and even though this code was lifted during the late 60s, it still has profound effects on how we tell stories through film. the filmmakers that grew up under the hays code saw and used those films as inspiration when they grew up to make their own work, incorporating the elements of the hays code into their films without even realizing. and then the next generation of flimmakers did the same thing with those works and so on and so forth. that's how the tropes that i was talking about earlier have survived so long. that's why the disney villains like scar or ursula or jafar are queercoded in similar ways to the villains of the 50s or 60s. that's why it was so remarkable to get movies like "but i'm a cheerleader" closer to the 2000s because they actually gave queer people a happy ending, despite the code mandating tragic endings being gone for decades. that stuff sticks around. cinema was also relatively new at the time so the film conventions brought about during the hays code times really shaped the way people understood film language since there wasn't much else to compare it to. and i just want to make it clear that i'm bringing this up because the code didn't just shape how filmmakers made their movies and characters, but also how the audience understands them. it shaped people's expectations and how they learned to recognize certain character types and tropes. unfortunately, there isn't much of a precedent for complex queer characters and stories, so a lot of people don't have experience recognizing that or even looking for it in mainstream media. that's a big part of what i think is happening with mike. they don't expect him to be complex so they overlook his queercoding and let the most surface-level information inform all that they see in his character, which is him dating el. a complex queer story about someone experiencing internalized homophobia or comphet just isn't something they know how to see so it has to be told to them that that is exactly what's happening. if you've ever wondered why queer people have always identified so often with villains in media or why some people don't seem to think "real queer stories" can be anything besides tragic, this little history crash course is your answer. ALSO BONUS, just bc it's fun imo: the "foot pop" trope also came from the hays code. if you've ever seen a couple kiss on screen and one of them lifted ("popped") their foot up into the air, that's a relic of the hays code. it originally started as a way for directors to make fun of the rule that was meant prevent sex in film by saying that a couple that was embracing needed to have at least one foot on the ground at all times (so they can't be in bed with both feet off the ground to have sex). it was just weirdly worded like a lot of the code was, so some older filmmakers had fun with it. it's also another example of how long the things developed from the code have stuck around to be things people still recognize today! idk, i think it's kinda cool
finally on to 2. this one used to get me because it seemed like such a clear-cut romance trope. like oh, "character blurts out a love confession in the heat of the moment because they're not thinking clearly enough to hold themselves back," i feel like i've seen that a million times before. but i think what's interesting here is the scene where it gets brought up again.
it happens in the final scene between el and mike in s3. el asks him about what he said and mike starts being avoidant and saying things like "it was all heat of the moment stuff" and "i don't really remember, what did i say exactly?" like he's trying to downplay it. it reminds me of the scene where steve is trying to talk to nancy about something she said and she's dismissive with him too, saying, "i was drunk, steve" and "i don't remember any of that". later on in the scene, steve asks her to tell him she loves him and she can't, which sounds quite familiar.
but back to mike and el. when mike isn't able to say it, el comes up to him and tell him that she loves him and kisses him. keep in mind that mike has been trying to get el back all season after she "dumped his ass". but you know what mike does in this scene? does he kiss her back? no. does he tell her he loves her too? no. he keeps his eyes open the entire kiss (which if that doesn't ring alarm bells for their relationship, i don't know what would) and then just looks confused as she walks away. what straight man in love with his girlfriend would keep his eyes open as she kisses him after telling him "i love you" for the first time? what straight man wouldn't even have a hint of a smile or any positive facial expressions after that? WHAT STRAIGHT MAN-
anyways, that whole scene makes no sense if mike's feelings for el are completely romantic. if mike's truth is that he loves el, then he wouldn't have looked so confused after the kiss. he could've just kissed her back. but he just didn't. what this suggests to me is that mike's confused about his feelings for el when if he was a straight man, he would have no reason to be. and this confusion carries on to s4 with him still being unable to tell her that he loves her back. so that's why that cabin scene doesn't read like milkvan proof to me, just something that has yet to be explained explicitly about mike's character. and despite the cabin scene seemingly being a cliche romance trope, i think it ended up being a subversion of it because of how they continued to develop milkvan's relationship problems afterwards. it wasn't a heat of the moment honest love confession because mike is still struggling with the idea of loving el romantically after.
my own personal interpretation of what was going on in mike's head in the scene where he blurts out that he loves her is that he meant it. he was scared of losing her again after s1 which clearly traumatized him. and he meant it when he said he loved el, but it was a platonic love. however, all of the people around him when he said that of course thought he meant it in a romantic way given that they were a boy and a girl (80s heteronormativity) and that they had been dating. i think it makes it clear to mike that people expect him to have these romantic feelings for el which puts pressure on him to live up to that. it could've also confused him further by making it harder to differentiate between platonic love and the romantic love he was "supposed" to feel for el. i think this confusion and pressure mike is going through in his relationship to el comes through in that final scene i was talking about. like i said, he looks confused as el walks away after the kiss. i think it's also interesting that in the original script for that scene, mike thinks to himself something along the lines of "what is wrong with me?" (i dont remember the line exactly off the top of my head) which encapsulates that confusion and a clear desire to feel what he's "supposed" to feel for el perfectly. but he just doesn't feel that way and he's starting to realize it. we'll see if my interpretation still makes sense after s5.
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that is the end of the post, whew. hopefully you enjoyed that and hopefully it helped address some of your byler doubt (ngl it is a bit long so i totally understand if you just skimmed it). this was a lot of fun to write and think about, so if it ended up not being convincing or if you or anyone has any questions/comments/concerns don't be afraid to let me know. i'd love to answer some more so i won't mind at all.
it's gonna give us almost nothing. i predict we're gonna get some shot of will just looking at something or touching his neck and i'm gonna be happy cuz that's my boyyy. we're also gonna get both byler and m*leven type shots (at least one of each) and byler tumblr is gonna have a wave of doubt crashing thru even tho the milkvan scene is gonna be like,, them talking. i do dare hope that the teaser is gonna be on the "beefier" side, but it's gonna be so out of context that it rlly doesn't give us much besides new editing material
honorable mentions (what would drive me thru the ROOF with excitement):
-any shot of a church (churchgate <3)
-any shot of a baseball field (baseball=conformity metaphor <3)
-mike looking at something on his wall intently (a million bonus points if they actually show the painting)
-dustin's eddie hair (i rarely talk abt it but the implications make me SO ready for s5)
not exactly a byler doubt since I don’t get that but an ex-byler said that as cute as byler is right now, if it’s actually canon in the show it’ll just end up being lame and cringe. and that fucked with me more than anything any mileven has said 😭😭
oh god, that used to get me. when i honestly asked myself why though, i found that for me it was a result of internalized homophobia. i found it so much harder to not judge queer stories in media meanwhile straight stories could get away with all kinds of shit. the only kinds of gay media that were exempt from this were the ones where queer people endlessly suffered because i was so used to seeing them. but yeah, i think for a lot of people this sentiment might come from internalized or just plain old homophobia. they might just feel "weird" about seeing a main queer couple on screen and not know how to articulate it in a way that won't seem outright homophobic, so "cringe" or "lame" feel like the closest words that can express that. it also makes me think of all the criticisms of heartstopper for example if you know anything abt that. ppl were saying that it was too happy and that that made it cringe, meanwhile straight people have had decades of happy, idyllic shows about their romances (heartstopper isn't even that idyllic tbh, it still tackles themes of internalized homophobic and EDs and stuff like that with a lot of maturity imo. i think it's another case of ppl being harsher on lgbt media)
and yknow, i guess there is a chance that byler could genuinely just be written in a lame and cringe way. that's like lowkey one of my worst fears, but we just can't know whether that's the case or not until s5 comes out. the writing for things like "without a heart, we'd all fall apart" kinda made me worried bc tbh, as much as i loved will's speech and as much as it got me, that was kinda lame to listen to. but to be fair, that was also a scene in which will was lying to mike. all the other scenes where they're having their heart-to-hearts come off so natural like "i didn't say it" "you didn't have to". i like can't help but smile watching those and just being like OML THAT WAS SO GAY so i honestly have faith that they're capable of handling byler well. they just need to give me like 20 more bonding scenes and i'll be happy. and given that will and mike are going to be big players in s5, i think they'll be paying extra attention to make sure their scenes work well
