#edelgard discourse

[truejekart]

Valentine Edelgard 💗

[raxistaicho]

An ill-fitting throne, like an ill-fitting crown

When I was last playing Three Houses, I was struck again by how small Byleth looks, seated on Sothis's throne:

They just look so fantastically unfitting for the throne.

Female Byleth can't even touch her heels to the ground, and while male Byleth can do that much, the arm rests are too far apart for him to use them properly, and he visibly has to sit so far forward that he can't rest his back against the back of the throne, either.

A pretty common theory is that Sothis was huge when she was alive, and aside from just the sheer size of the throne this is supported by, of all the grotesque things, the Sword of the Creator itself:

It's pretty easy to infer that the serrated portion of the blade was crafted from Sothis's spine. A person's spine generally constitutes 25% of their total height, and the Sword of the Creator is huge, especially compared to Female Byleth:

With Byleth being 5'4'', Sothis could easily be between seven and eight feet tall. She'd easily dwarf everyone else in the game, including Dedue and Nemesis.

Where am I going with this?

Byleth not being big enough to sit properly upon Sothis's throne is symbolic in a way: they're being pressed into a position that doesn't suit them. Just look at how uncomfortable and uncertain they seem, particularly female Byleth.

[dexjarxenoengage]

Spoilers for Fire Emblem Three Houses; mainly Crimson Flower. Radiant Dawn and Xenoblade Chronicles 1.

I hate to be a downer here, but I’m probably the one that can and will say this: Edelgard’s line here falls flat for me.

Reason being: 1. Rhea isn’t actually the god, Sothis is. And 2. Byleth has been using Sothis’ power to help her in her conquest. More than that, this is the only arc where Byleth loses that power (may or may not have been for the best, but still).

Simple fact is, regardless of your opinion of Rhea and her actions, Rhea herself isn’t all that powerful even if we choose to consider her a god. She’s nowhere near Ashera or Grima’s power and survivability. Heck, I consider Sombron with the power of the 12 Emblems to be stronger than her (in lore, not gameplay).

The very fact that Sothis is the god of this setting and within Byleth (heck, people choosing to treat Byleth as Sothis, even if I don’t agree with this either) and is the reason the war turns her favor is the reason why this line is poorly executed IMO. Even if Sothis doesn’t have her memories, she wasn’t a malevolent god. She let Byleth continue to walk the path they believed in, no matter who they sided with.

Had Sothis actually been the final boss and acted in a manner similar to Grima, this would make Edelgard’s one liner mean something. But that simply isn’t the case. So again, this line just doesn’t work IMO.

And finally, god slayer characters like Ike and Shulk were able to make their lines because their stories don’t conflict with the messages of their home game. Such as Ike gaining strength to fight off the toughest foes and Shulk defeating Zanza to prove that he’s carving his own path rather than the one Zanza (who is an evil god) forced onto him.

The thing that made those lines work is because for Ike, it represents the odds he had to go through in order to get to this point (such as beating the Black Knight, whose armor is empowered by a goddess). And though Ike did had help from Ashera’s other half Yune, Ashera was still stronger and still the main threat.

Rhea may have been born from Sothis, but she is herself is not the goddess (not in terms of power or setting). It also helps that Yune is tied to Micaiah, not Ike. And Micaiah and Ike were at war, but Ashera finally put them in a position that would get them to work together.

As for Xenoblade 1; putting what we learn about Klaus in later games aside, Zanza was the main antagonist of Xenoblade 1. Zanza embodies everything Edelgard claims Rhea being. Zanza had manipulated his world from the very beginning; from Egil’s motivations down to Shulk losing his girlfriend Fiora.

Zanza is not only a much more powerful and dangerous compared to Rhea; Zanza was never going to admit to being wrong. If you play Silver Snow and get the event no one will talk about; Rhea admits her faults and strive to atone. Rhea could change if given the chance, but Zanza was too consumed by his self perseverance and greed to change.

And thus, narratively speaking, alongside the gameplay and power scaling; Shulk slaying Zanza feels more earned compared to Edelgard vs Rhea. And as for Shulk, putting the above aside, Edelgard is honestly more like Egil than with Shulk. Same enemy, different methodology and motivations; Shulk is able to see another compared to Edelgard though and doesn’t get innocent people hurt along the way to do it.

So overall, this is my opinion on why Edelgard’s final speech towards Rhea falls moot.

[ask-the-abyss-keeper]

Hear me out…

There is nothing wrong with liking Edelgard as a character. There is nothing wrong with agreeing with Edelgard’s manifesto. But there is something you have to admit if you’ve played through all four routes in FE3H…

(Spoilers below the cut, and also Edelgard critical, but in a fair way)

In 3 out of the 4 routes, Edelgard is clearly written as an antagonist. Crimson Flower involves trusting her over the church (but my head canon is that Byleth as a character has other reasons not to forsake her) and it’s only then that you realize she was more of a political pawn to a greater evil. I always compare her to Magneto- yeah, he’s the villain most of the time, but he’s got a good reason to do what he does; he’s a villain you empathize with. Edelgard is the same right down to her color scheme. Edelgard isn’t a Hitler, she’s more of a Napoleon; she wants to dismantle the old and usher in the new.

Within the game itself, other people have pointed out that Edelgard’s goals aren’t that different from Claude’s and that beyond potential border disputes, they should have few reasons to wage war against each other. Honestly? Of all the house leaders, Claude seems the least ruthless or bloodthirsty (although he’s no pacifist either) but perhaps that has more to do with Claude not being coerced by Thales as Edelgard was. And choosing Edelgard’s side over Rhea’s means you get to experience Rhea’s darker side. But look, it’s a tragedy no matter which route you choose. Each faction has its grievances and each of the three house leaders ends up with blood on their hands in the end. Saying that Edelgard is any worse than the others seems fair up until you play through her route completely. One might assume the same of Dimitri without playing through Azure Moon first (“Kill every last one of them!”) There is a large contingent of the fandom that takes it to heart and aims its vitriol at other players, which seems like a waste of time and energy to me. Moral complexity is the point and if you wanna hate on a certain FE3H character, that’s your business. But at the end of the day, we’re all fans of the same game.

Those among the Black Eagles who would side with Edelgard over the church would likely do so because they’re scared of what might happen if they don’t. Most of the Black Eagles (with the exception of Hubert and “Monica” who isn’t playable in FE3H) will go along with Byleth no matter which choice they make. I made this list because if they were real people with real agency over their lives, they might make different choices than what we see in canon if you don’t recruit them (It’s worth noting to newer players that seldom will units actually leave your party in Part 2 of the game)

Byleth would not likely take Edelgard’s side because as shady as the church may be, Edelgard colluded with the people who kidnapped Flayn, experimented on Remire Village, and murdered their dad. My head canon is that Byleth is smitten with Edelgard and that’s why they choose to protect her… but that’s just me.

Ferdinand would be one of the first to defect; he would not so easily forgive the empire for what it did to his father’s reputation.

Petra would also defect if Byleth is in the picture and she is reasonably assured that Brigid will be free from the empire’s grip.

Caspar says himself that he’s got nothing coming to him as a noble and would stand with Byleth due to his strong sense of justice. (But honestly he could go either way, and he does depending on your decision)

Bernadetta might seem cowardly, but Byleth does embolden her and she has as little reason to side with the empire as Ferdinand does, only her father is a much worse pile of shit.

Linhardt is more interested in studying crests than he is in fighting, so the scholarly part of him would likely go along with his professor over his house leader… but much like Caspar, he could be swayed to either side.

Hubert canonically stays at Edelgard’s side in every route.

Dorothea is likely the only other who would choose Edelgard over Byleth, because Dorothea has the most reason to support Edelgard’s cause. A world without nobles… why wouldn’t she support that idea? Also, Dorothea is probably the closest thing Edelgard has to an actual friend.

So that’s where I officially weigh in on The Discourse. I love this game, and I love most of the characters. I also love the fandom. However, that doesn’t mean I have to think that any of the three house leaders is more morally pure than the other two, or more faultless than the church. I can appreciate Edelgard as a character without agreeing with everything she does. That’s a part of fiction- you decide for yourself.

[solmarillion]

my stance on the edelgard discourse: i think she did lots of things wrong and she should've committed more crimes just so more people on the internet can get irrationally angry about a fictional character in an anime chess game

[problematic-fodlan]

The edelgard is her own worst critic ideas are so funny to me:

"I'm drenched in the blood of those I have to sacrifice to get the world I dream of. I won't stop, but I will say that this is happening"

she is not critiquing herself. She's acknowledging some nagging sense of guilt that she hopefully feels after staring a war, massacaring an impoverished neighbouring country, sacking the farms and villages of Faerghus, attacking the alliance (which was staying out of the fight), experimenting on her own people and other nation's peoples (ordelia in particular) to create human experimentation beasts capable of taking down a sizeable chunk of an army, and allying herself with people who use WMDs, has her secret service (Hubert etc) kill or silence all the opposing nobles in her country, is complicit in (and may well have ordered) the torture of war prisoners, organised instability in neighbouring nation so that her and TWSTD's lackey Cornelia would take over - killing their regent, and trying to kill their prince, keeps the 'vassal state' Bridgid on a very short leash and forces their crown princess to fight in her war.

And that's only in the war phase. In white clouds she attacks her classmates, is complicit in a kidnapping, is complicit in human experimentation (though she's a bit angry about it), is complicit in torture (some of Hubert's dialogue as well as the lost item that suggests he is "someone who is callous in their methods" even in white clouds), destroys a religious site which is giving sanctuary to people, ransacks the graves and memorial of a genocided people, is complicit in murder (since it isn't wartime, everyone who dies from unprovoked attack, including Jeralt, is murdered), declares war, threatens her political hostage should Petra not want to join her side in the war she just declared, and that's just the stuff that I can remember!

Edelgard is not her own worst critic. Edelgard's worst critic is Dimitri, closely followed by the nation of Faerghus and half of Leicester. Edelgard just admits to what she's done.

-

[faerghusfucker]

my evolution as a fe3h fan is rlly funny to me lol. i played the game for the first time when i was 15 and now at 19 im playing through three hopes (yes im super late dont ask) and the fact that there have been times where ive been obsessed with EVERY HOUSE is rlly funny to me

at the start i was a claude and golden deer stan through and through bc funny meme house and also the nemesis fight

then when i was starting to get a little more politically minded i fell into the “edelgard did nothing wrong” camp because. yeah!!!! meritocracy!!!! united!!!! fuck religion!!!

and now as an adult with a lot more awareness and a lot less edgy atheism i came to the conclusion that not only is imperialism and destroying people’s lives for an ideal you have no concrete way of upholding bad, but the entire “let’s get rid of crests” argument is not even a solid one because it centers adrestia and doesn’t take into account the other two regions’ need for heroes relics.

correct me if i’m missing something or if i’m wrong, but no one in adrestia’s nobility actually has a hero’s crest. if they have crests, they’re saint crests, and saint crests have compatibility with sacred weapons, which are different to heroes relics because anyone can use them without turning into a beast.

additionally, adrestia doesn’t have any immediate neighbors that could cause them trouble. it doesn’t directly border a non-fodlan country, and they seem to have taken care of their brigid situation by kidnapping petra. the empire has no immediate threats.

the kingdom and alliance tho????? they border sreng and almyra respectively, which seem to invade at the drop of a hat and force houses gautier and goneril respectively to be in constant combat. those two houses literally DEPEND ON THEIR RELICS FOR SURVIVAL. until someone figures out a better way for them to defend their lands, they NEED crests!!!

obviously this isn’t necessarily a good thing, since we see the path that miklan and rufus as crestless older sons go down, but it’s not like the kingdom is exactly keen on keeping this in place either. in three hopes they talk a ton abt how crest bloodlines are dying out and how something needs to change. hell, sylvain is someone who directly benefits from faerghus’ crest dependency and yet in his supports with shez, he’s going and devising powerful weapons that people without crests can use!!! we see time and time again that the young nobles of faerghus are interested in the same things edelgard is: establishing a more equal society, and decreasing the need for crests. but why doesn’t she just collaborate with them to that end???? why doesn’t she hear dimitri out when he tries to talk her out of continuing on this path????

oh yeah. the church.

i’m probably gonna yap abt the church later lol i’m running out of steam on this ramble. tiktok is banned and so this is what i’ve resolved to do while i sip my morning coffee lol bear with me

[emblemxeno]

Maybe he no longer sees the virtue in fighting fair anymore because the people trying to trample and conquer his home never fought fair in the first place 🤔

Maybe his anger has something to do with this 5 year long war you started that resulted in many, many people dying and being killed by you, and not necessarily because of his past, ever thought about that?

Of course, that'd be the logical way of thinking, and the writers couldn't have that, so they confirm Edelgard's biases later in his standard death scene.

Top is Japanese, bottom is English.

So they changed "giving it back" to Dimitri ranting about vengeance.

I wanted to double check the "giving it back" line, so I ran it through DeepL and got this

So it was a line more about taking back everything Edelgard took from him and his people.

By comparing the actual audio, Japanese Dimitri here sounds much less angry than English Dimitri. I wonder if there was an agenda here, hmm.

Top is Japanese, bottom is English.

Wow, they removed the part where Dedue says every soldier eagerly accepted the crest stones of their own volition, huh.

By doing that, it implies that Dedue forced or secretly planted them on the other soldiers, wtf were these localizers on?

You can elect to never talk to any of these schmucks when you aren't forced to and pick a class they never were a part of, and still they have mixed feelings at worst about Byleth.

Never let anyone convince you that the "worship" that Corrin or Alear got in their games was worse than this.

Sylvain's line is kinda raw tho ngl.

Top is Japanese, bottom is English.

Removing the part of protecting something to make him more generic about battle, hmm.

Imagine invading someone's country, relentlessly killing their people and then having the gall to condescend to them like this. She talks like a fucking troll.

Times of peace very much could've come if you didn't do the shit you did, Edelgard. You're a joke.

you're working with your uncle and have been since before you enrolled at the monastery

Dimitri's desire to take his home back is also a huge part of his revenge, dickbag

"he lost sight of his path as king" Fucking HOW? This is the first and only time we fight Dimitri in this route. He's been holed up in Faerghus this entire time, more reserved than in any other route in the game. This route is quite literally the only time this perception of his character is false, and makes no sense to accuse him of. Or does "losing sight of his path as king" mean he failed to submit to your grand ambitions?

I'm gonna have a migraine at this rate. Let's end this post on a good note.

Dedue originally called Dimitri his "one and only" waaaaaaaaaahhh ;-;

Top is Japanese, bottom is English.

I know it's not that significant of a change, but I think "irreplaceable happiness" is much sweeter and more intimate than "a joy I never could have hoped for." This is also the first time I'm hearing the JP version of these lines, holy shit the raw emotion coming from Dedue's seiyuu, it's almost enough to make me cry wtfffff