#elmike analysis

[sunsestart]

They make me insane

I love platonic elmike so much, but also their romantic relationship is SOOO interesting to me

I mean, they care about each other SO MUCH

But they're just not meant for each other, they can't understand the other, and just always end up saying the worst things and hurting the other and augh

Jane.....your boyfriend is gay...........

[fatfatgaybitch]

Imagine. Will. Overhears. ‘What painting?’. Holy. Shit.

[monsterkill--er]

if el is over there 👉

and mike is over here👇

and the "suppression stone" was pointing away from el (at where she was) 👈

and this is all mike's pov 🧠

then why did it point towards mike?

later, mike role plays as strahd… and the mage

as the mage, he "casts" her blinding spell

then says there's "a real story" to the mage (at will)

who is el, who was an illusion

an illusion by "kali," the goddess of consciousness?

who strips away false identities? who refers to el as "jane"?

and to a cycle of abuse, the curse, and the show (meta)

as "this" refers to el—a false identity—as she says "lie to yourself" in mike's pov

his (and hop's) relationship to jane becomes a facade—what she is meant to destroy:

the edit cuts to short-circuiting lights behind mike who anxiously says "el" (transl. "he, him," or "god")

"jane, el, eleven" were all assigned to her, but el never had a chosen identity. when kali refers to the "feminine," why does mike use the "masculine," or his facade?

why does he say "el" right after kali outs that version is a "lie"? in front of a projector???

a symbol of externalization; reproduction of a "sunbeam" to cast the vale of shadows (aka shadowfell; a mortal reflection with undeadnaming; where emotions are drained and replaced with despair and apathy).

"sunbeam," the blindness spell, "she casts"

while it hard cuts to MIKE on screen

falling into… the void and a montage of mike and el's "romantic relationship"?

what HE calls sunbeam? MIKE called it that? if suppression stone (logic), then mike casts (conclusion)

"…end our fall. from darkened paths and secrets deep," will stares directly at mike, then continues, "come forth and help your promise keep." (verse 3, time after time redux)

"nothing happens," emotion has been replaced with apathy, he's undead, as it were, or unaffected by el's spell, because he now knows it was a story, about an invisible woman never actually there.

my conclusion is this

the suppression stone is a metaphor for fear of judgement. those dishes only turn onto mike when his facade crumbles, when sunbeam didn't work on him anymore—when el vanishes.

yes, el, who he used to explore his identity, like paint make up on her, teach her how to dance like a girl, get cute things for.

in the end, "kali" had a change of heart. she didn't out his lie, she let mike decide to destroy a part of himself.

it's interesting, the happy version is when the mage role (feminine) beats the strahd role (masculine). but outside of the game's simulation—after burying his "feminine" avatar—he's actually still styled like strahd/vecna. like the rest of his family too, who all but holly have the same haircut, because his little sister is not yet an adult and does not need to conform.

el was what mike wanted to be all along, projecting her—or at least onto her—his chosen feminine identity he ultimately had to keep hidden.

*i'm using these fem/masc terms in any and all ways, including gender, sexuality, and ecology.

"it's not my fault you don't like girls!" oh, it's not my fault you don't like girls… goes even harder with this interpretation, imo.

[gayofthefae]

Okay but let's talk about this as a beautifully accurate representation of where El was in her healing here

She was abused by a man. In her healing, however, she found safe figures: a single father, a boyfriend, and two male best friends.

She is in a safer situation now. BUT

She has a VERY REALISTIC aversion to other women! She sees Max here from the moment she first saw her through the window only as competition for male attention. This is INCREDIBLY realistic and amazing to be shown so. Because trauma symptoms like this do not disappear immediately with safety - that's the definition of trauma 'symptoms', which only become disordered when not needed.

In her environment in the lab, especially with the now-knowledge of her siblings, she was not only appeasing the highest power which was a man, but she was in constant competition for that attention. We also know now: she was losing in that competition. But even when her only memories were of being an isolated "only child" abuse victim, the symptoms also make sense - the combination of conscious and subconscious memory creating the same trauma response.

The stakes of failing to gain approval from a man may no longer be public humiliation, verbal abuse, imprisonment, assault, electrocution, or abuse of loved ones (referring to 001's electrocution), but that doesn't mean the instinctive response isn't still very much there.

A man is someone to be appeased. A man is someone you seek approval from. A woman is someone you compete with for their approval. Only one can win. She doesn't have to actively believe Mike will hurt her to feel a general sense of high stakes and threat from Max being in his life.

It's why her relationship with Max the following season and prioritizing not just Max but a woman's approval over a man's and his desires from her is SUCH a big milestone. Because in season 2, she sees Max as a threat. A threat to her remaining prioritized goal, which we can interpret as being what she is so adamant about as her goal in the beginning of the season: male attention.

In season 1, she had Mike's attention and was rewarded with it. The only times she lacked it, he yelled at her or ignored her. Not in a way that genuinely resembled Brenner so much as triggered it - much like her triggers relating to him in season 4. So regardless of whether or how she factors that in, she either quantifies the idea of lacking his attention as connecting with some level of danger or neglect OR she does not factor those memories in making something differently scary: unknown stakes.

If a person is abused by someone who treats them nice when they do something wrong and poorly when they don't and form a new relationship with someone who is safe but they have never severely messed up with that person, they will hold that fear until they mess up and it's okay - likely repeatedly. As the abuse would have been long-term, they need to reassociate the consequences of mistakes. This is much of what we see in El's fears about Mike in season 4 and what I've talked about: because they are one of the only relationships of any kind that have not "broken promises" severely up until this point, she has no data on what will happen if she does. She doesn't believe he will harm her, but she does hold the very clearly stated belief that lack of attention means lack of love, and further that she is unlovable. This is the same reason it was so important for her and Hopper to break all their rules in season 2 - to demonstrate to her that making mistakes is a safe thing for her to do, the consequences of which may be anger but not danger or abandonment.

So with that fear for her in mind, as we know it in general and as it applies to Mike and continues to through and well past season 2, let's talk about her goal of Mike's attention in season 2:

In season 2 episode 2, we see her crying when Mike gets up and leaves the walkie. Of course, she misses him, but we did not see this response before. She is fearing that she is losing him. It's after this point that she becomes increasingly desperate to see him, fighting Hopper harder, yelling and throwing things, before ignoring his warning of danger to break out and see him. The reason the scene with Max is so emotional for her is not because she never thought he would move on, but because she was recently starting to fear that he would. She felt him slipping away and was feeling an increasing urgency to it, that if she didn't act now he would move on from her. She checked in with him every day and cites later that she was given comfort from his daily calls, but he starts to get more self-berating in them to himself for trying in the first place...until the breaking point. And she was right. After that, Mike stops calling, as we know from the number of days she recites later. So after she got that giving up on her call on Halloween night, the next morning she argued with Hopper for the first time in the "when is soon?!" argument where she psychically throws his plate into him. The subtext of "on day 700? On day 800?!" is "We're on day 354 now and I'm already losing him. I'll be too late in a few days, let alone years." So she sneaks out to see him in an attempt to save him before he finally slips away. And what she sees, to her, is that she's too late. Completely out of her control, and driving her anger towards Hopper further, she missed her window, and she lost him. She lost his attention - to another girl. In her mind, if she returns now, he'll never love her again. That's what happens when you lose someone's attention: you're unlovable. So she leaves for Chicago indefinitely, for a time even seriously considering not returning, even for Mike. The only reason she does is because she thinks she can give him something.

But when she sees Mike, he is thrilled to see her. And when she sees Max, all Max is to her is the girl who almost stole him. Who would have, given a couple more days. Because she was raised on the idea that only one person can be loved at a time, the rest discarded, and that love is a competition that must be both won and maintained. Not only that, but that that competition is for a man's attention, therefore against other women.

Pre-season 1 El's life depends on whether she can achieve and maintain positive attention from a man. The stakes are high. In season 1, El is able to achieve positive attention from a man. The stakes are not high, but she has no way of knowing that. In fact, "a promise is something you can't break ever" likely interprets as reinforcing it to a traumatized mind. She also learns(this doesn't mean it's true) that the only way for her to maintain that attention is to be of service via her powers, as each time Mike is angry with her, she is able to regain it by making contact with Will or saving Mike using her powers. She has now learned that, based on the model she was raised on of love being something to be maintained, she is not lovable if she falls short of heroic. She ends season 1 with the ultimate heroic act: self-sacrifice.

In season 2, though she has Hopper, she is prioritizing her original validating male attention, Mike. Because Mike believes her dead, she feels powerless as she is unable to maintain the attention she cultivated from him. She cannot actively lose it either, so all she can hope to do is return to him before the slow fade goes all the way out. But she becomes increasingly desperate to catch him in time as urgency increased based on time-lapsed and his behaviors she's observed. His attention towards her is waning. She needs to get it back before it's lost. This is urgent to her and it is high stakes, because she's a thirteen year old in love? No. Because a man's attention was once life and death, and her body has not left that state, regardless of conscious beliefs about Mike. So she sneaks out despite the known danger - because in her traumatized body, the danger of losing a man's attention is equal if not surpassing to the risk of being seen. She thinks of losing Mike's attention if she doesn't go as an inevitability and being caught as a less likely risk, and if you think of the stakes of those situations as equal, the decision is clearer. So she goes, and she sees that she's too late. She has lost his attention. She is heartbroken and leaves. She fights with Hopper, she finds out about her mother and who she was or could have been and this is where that healing gets started. She prioritizes a woman - her mother. Then she prioritizes a woman - her sister. It is also incredibly important that Kali is the leader of the gang. Her approval is the most important, not Axl or anyone else's - who are first presented to her as the most intimidating, insulting and threatening her until Kali is a revealed as the true boss. She heavily considering not returning to the men who she considers to be lost to her: Hopper is angry with her, meaning she has lost his attention and approval, and Mike has moved on, meaning he would not care for her return. Hopper's apology is a huge part of it, because it is likely only the second she has ever received (Lucas) and the first elaboration of love. He teaches her for the first time in her life that anger is not a lack of love or punishment and that it can actually be based in love, though that does not make him less responsible, and most importantly, something she has never seen, he demonstrates capacity for guilt. He loves her enough to feel bad about hurting her. She's never had that before. Hurting has simply been an act to revoke love as purposeful punishment and the people who do it have stood by and repeated those actions. She then sees too that they are in need of her help. She now knows two things: Hopper does love her. Her powers make Mike love her. She returns - going to Will's house, not Mike's or home, with intention to save the day, not reunite. It seems from her surprised look that she didn't know Mike would be there, so we can also assume the case for Hopper, but likely only the Byers. She has returned to save the day, as is her value. After her reunions, she ignores Max. Because Max, to her, is solely a threat, as only one person can win Mike's attention and if Max is in her life, there's a risk that it isn't her, for which, as we've established, the stakes would be very high. Learning that Hopper's love for her is unconditional is not the same as learning that she is unconditionally lovable. To segue, though, Hopper apologizing in the car cements that fact for her in her relationship with Hopper: "I guess we broke our rule" - that making mistakes is okay and not a threat to her safety.

In season 3, however, she starts out being neutral about Max but not close. They seem to not interact much and just share a physical space together, as Max seems intimidated when El first approaches her one on one. The only reason for which is to regain a man's attention. El is happy at the start of the season because she sees Mike every day and is keeping his focus and has been consistently "every day for six months" as Hopper references. She feels that his attention is a secure thing. So when she loses it unexplained, she is very surprised and confused. The remaining stakes in this for her are very clear by the fact that she seeks advice from someone she dislikes after under one day of not having his attention. She goes to Max for advice on how to regain his attention. Max is also no longer a threat to her as she knows now Max is not pursuing Mike's attention. Max says she needs to relax for a day because giving him a taste of his own medicine will get him to understand and come back. And she suggests that if he doesn't act properly in response, she dump him. This IS huge for El when she follows through. It is an impulse she would have been very averse to before having the support of Max. She is starting to value women's attention more. But it is also true that it was merely an impulse. That night, she needs comfort when she's reminded that they're broken up (this is because she misses him, yes, but no action or emotion is untouched by trauma responses as an abuse survivor). Max tells her to not worry because he'll come crawling back any moment begging for her to come back. This is nice to her because it validates the healing idea she learned from Hopper last season: that she is missed and people who hurt her feel independent guilt. Though the breakup is big for her, we know it doesn't solve everything from her persistent symptoms in season 4. Because though progress, every step of the breakup so far is a tactic. It is an empty threat, just like Max makes to Lucas, to get Mike back. At this point, she has never truly believed that they will stay broken up. Which is also why a huge step in the season is her ANGER towards him when she sees that he is remorseless and expects HER to come back to HIM. She wants his attention, and it's better than nothing that he still wants hers, but she now has Hopper as a healthy comparison to raise her expectations. Her expectations have been raised to expect remorse for hurting her(huge!). So when he does come "crawling back" SHE DOESN'T LET HIM. Again, HUGE FOR HER! She even argues that maybe Hopper was right in suggesting they spend time apart. Of course, this too, is said in anger and not commitment, as many such things are in life. Because he did not apologize in earnest, he shifted blame to Hopper. He 'explained', but he did not apologize. We know it is said in anger not follow through because in the very next episode he offers an olive branch, subtly implying regret for his previous comment by making fun of himself for it, and she immediately looks at him with interest again, showing she never genuinely stopped wanting to be together. She is not ready to forego his approval, but is still major progress for her hold out on it until her standards are met and he has yet to fully apologize. She then overhears him say he loves her which steps EVERYTHING up and I would argue actually causes major regression for her. It is the classic moment of regression: there is something she has been slowly learning not to chase after...and she gets it. She got the thing she craved. But she still holds onto her growth in holding out for that apology that she gets in the mini-mart the following episode. She has communicated with him her needs - trust - and received an apology. In the apology, though, he attempted to tell her he loved her but they were interrupted - she knows this, she heard the attempt, but it seems that he intends to follow up himself at the next opportunity, then everything gets complicated, so she lets him initiate like he seems to want to on his own time.

(had to paragraph break bc tumblr gave me a warning)Then, she loses the only man in her life who she has confirmed unconditional love from. She no longer has that to return to. It's the last day and she's leaving without having Mike as her boyfriend again. Not previously mentioned, but that is also pertinent because in season 2, she was shown learning English from movies that idolize romantic love about all - even using the name Michael. She lacks her father's attention now and doesn't want to leave without Mike's to hold onto in her shift to complete unfamiliarity, so she gives him one last chance to do it himself, then decides to initiate on her own and tell him she loves him. She, naturally based on what she overheard, assumes that nerves are the only reason he hasn't said it/gotten back together, so this will solve them. To her, she has his attention again.

Pre-season 4, they have been writing consistent letters and are implied to talk on walkies when Mike has access to Dustin's radio, as El has a walkie in her room with her Mike-things. When it comes to letters, there is a maximum amount of attention you can get or give and she is getting it...almost. She's started to notice the pattern that, though she pointedly signs her letters "love" every time, he always signs "from". In retrospect, she realizes that the his last attempt to tell her he loves her was mere hours before it was first discovered that she lost her powers. She isn't the hero to him anymore, so, just she felt in season, she has stopped being lovable. Although in season 1, the tone was different. In season 1, it was "I can make myself lovable with my powers! I can get love I haven't had before!", but now it's "I have the ability to lose that love". Despite her personal efforts, losing her powers makes her incapable of maintaining his love, which she still believes she must do. She is also being bullied. Not only has she lost her powers, but she is failing socially. She still has Mike's attention, but like in season 2, though for different reasons, she fears that it is waning. She lies to him in the letters to maintain it and when he arrives, plans the entire day with the sole intention of winning him back/convincing him to love her, to the point of completely excluding Will from it: "I want today to just be about you and me". Because in this case, Will, too, is capable of stealing his attention from her, though she wouldn't blame him the way she did Max, she still protects herself from it. Because she believes that if he finds out, she will lose the last bit of his attention she had and he will discard her. Which is also why, even after being caught clear and red-handed, still she asks Angela to lie for her. Because this is still high stakes for her. We then see a direct confirmation when Mike is directly paralleled to Brenner in her flashback. But this is not the first time he is paralleled to Brenner. Mike has been a representation for the stakes with which she views male attention the entire series - which is why only Mike and Hopper are directly paralleled to Brenner, a Brenner parallel means high stakes attention - season 4 is just the first time we're seeing her when she's actually failed to attain it and can no longer assume she would have been fine. She had started to believe that she was lovable to him in season 3 as he expressed missing her when they broke up, but she now views her powers as the only thread causing that. He views her as "incredible", not lovable. Everything he 'loves' her for, she no longer is. And as Mike's cut line describes, she somewhat gives up here. But not in an independent way. In a resigned way. Not "I don't need your love", but "if you can't love me it's because no one can". So she leaves. She leaves to become lovable again.

And when she sees the first man to ever teach her she was worthless, she runs at first - of course, he represents danger on a base level. But then he tells her he is confident he can, to her mental translation, make her lovable again, and she goes with him willingly. Because at the end of the day, too, every moment spent trying to convince any man to love her was just an attempt to relive and rewrite her relationship with Brenner to convince him to. That opportunity is in front of her again, and she can't pass it up.

Because none of this was about Mike. And none of it was about Hopper. And none of it was about Max. It was about Brenner and her siblings. She has spent the entire series fighting for male attention and seeing others as competition for it without knowing why. Season 4 is about her learning way. In season 4, she uncovers and processes the memories that founded her belief that love must be repeatedly earned and maintained and the consequences for it not being are abuse and death. Now that she can point to the exact memories that taught uniquely her that, it no longer looks like a fact of life. And she can let it go. She can let him go.

She has someone to blame now. "I came her to find out if I was the monster. But now I know. It is not me. It is you." She has someone to blame.

It isn't her fault for failing to earn his love. Because love is not be earned. "Papa does not tell the truth". That was a lie he told her to get away with it. She has someone to blame now. Which also means she has someone to let go.

She's free. She reunites with Mike and he is just Mike to her. He is no longer a mirage of her abuser abandoning her over and over again. Will is just Will. He is not someone she'll be locked in a cage for not being able to be.

So when she said she was worried Brenner was right about it being soon, it is guilt towards Max only. Hypotheticals she could have done differently. But she says that to Mike as just Mike. And she goes to her room and she sees her dad as just her dad. And her mom isn't competing for her dad and her best friend isn't competing for her boyfriend and neither is her brother. Because she doesn't need it anymore. That's what not needing it is.

Because she never needed Mike to love her. She needed Papa to love her. She doesn't need that anymore, so Mike is what he always was. Not needed, but wanted. She never needed Mike. So not needing him now is good thing. It means he's just Mike to her <3.

[hwania]

No i genuinely agree with the writing feeling misogynistic… el has been the female lead for 4 seasons which the show could not even exist without, the one with powers, and now will all of a sudden is being pushed as like the one to defeat vecna and so many ppl online saying he’s more powerful than el. Kill me honestly what is happening

and sorry, i get why people like will but i just can’t get behind him as a character. sure he’s the “lead” but he’s for the last four seasons been barely more than a plot device.

spare for his gay arc there is nothing enticing to me about will as a person. i empathise with him. i am not invested in him. now in s5 we’re being pushed a will byers prophet narrative? why can he harness vecna’s powers and use them with such ease when el’s been struggling with overuse consistently over the past seasons,.. in s4 i thought she was done w the whole ‘my powers tire me out’ thing but apparently not! they’ve nerfed her again🥰

furthermore why the HELL is el being distranced from everyone?? no elmax reunion, barely any interaction between el and the rest if the party, barely any REAL conversation between mileven and el/hopper. i know the plan is to kill her off, but seriously?? what is happening.

[willbyerschocomilk]

On the Incestuous Subtext of Mike and El’s Relationship, and the Parallels Between Hopper and Mike

cw: discussions of heteronormativity, gender roles, incest, and the nuclear family

Mike only finds heterosexuality appealing in the normative context which it typically exists, in his case, the traditional family unit. The Wheeler home is a prime example of this; Nancy complains about her parents loveless marriage, Ted is constantly shown lazing away while Karen cares for the children, and the kid’s bedrooms strongly represent feminine (Nancy) and masculine (Mike) gender roles. Nancy’s room is bathed in pale tones of pink and blue, adorned with delicate elements like her thin white wire bed frame. Mike’s room is primarily a deeper blue, with wooden furniture and various objects haphazardly placed.

The traditional family which they embody is inherently incestuous; the father owns the daughter, who he passes to a man who then owns her. The brother in the family unit is a secondary authority to the father, because he is a man. When Mike sees El in his sister’s clothes, in his sister’s room, he calls her pretty. She shifts from being just a girl, to a family member. His perception changes and he subconsciously begins to view her as property within the incestuous family unit. Prior to this event, his interest in her seems to only extend to her supernatural capabilities. Even their first kiss has these undertones; it follows him saying his family would be El’s family and her responding by asking if he’d be like her brother. Although he denies this, the subtext is clear. His desire for her develops out of a subconscious need to conform to traditional family values in the face of both the time period itself and his father’s expectations. He is not in love with El—he is in love with the idea of a sister who is not his sister.

His parallels to Hopper only deepen the incestuous nature of his relationship with El. To Mike, El is like a sister, but to El, Mike is closer to a father.

Brenner was her “original” father figure, who essentially taught her the basic principles of life but not of companionship or individuality. He represents a very cruel image of a father—someone who is unyielding and violent, willing to destroy what he has to mold it into what he wants. Like God speaking the world into existence, he gave her a name: Eleven. Hopper was her second father. He taught her language (she could speak before, but not at the level of other kids) and safety. He calls himself her protector, but often he shelters her too much. He, like many fathers, views her as something he owns—and he too is afraid to lose his property. He too, granted her a name. Jane. Jane Hopper—complete with his own last name, branded into her like the tattoo Brenner gave her.

Mike gave her a name too: El. Although it’s a variation of her past name, it represents something different. In the image of his own name—Mike, short for Michael, he shortened her past name. Gave new life to something old.

To Hopper, Mike is competition. He’s stealing his daughter from him. It can be seen in season three; when he yells at them to keep the door three inches open, when he lies to Mike to send him home, when he expresses to Joyce his desire to kill Mike.

Mike, even if it was messy and error-filled, taught her companionship. Like Brenner and Hopper, he taught her a basic facet of life. Like Brenner and Hopper, He gave her a name. Like Brenner and Hopper, he is someone she feels she has to prove herself to—someone she feels she must act to deserve.

[madwheelie]

this is going to be terribly long-winded.

this is fucking longer than i expected fuckkkkkk. i sound fucking insane through all of this but just hear me outttt. to those who love to hear me yap

summary! brenner+hop parallels, mike+henry parallels, elmike parallels, elmikehop, el+brenner/hop and mike+hop parallels, grooming overall

Brenner is a groomer (henry + el + lab kids) he takes a parental role for the lab kids, kidnaps and isolates them, controls and coerces them to do what he wants. S4 shows us his relationship with El specifically where he singles El out making her special compared to the rest of the kids, a grooming technique. The constant emotional abuse swaying between acting as a caring father (he takes on the title papa) and putting her in physical danger both by his hand and by association. (putting her in the void while saying she was brave+strong was abuse and part of this push pull narrative) Brenner made El entirely dependent on him for comfort and safety while being the source of harm which does apply to grooming. All of this applies to Henry (and henry himself uses these techniques). Brenner utilizes the Creel Tragedy to take the place of Henry's parents and manipulate him. Henry is 001 and Brenner's first as said before he makes Henry feel special. Later on Brenner tries to give Henry the assumption they are equals (henry is allowed to work with the kids like doctor yet still is under brenners control) A tactic used by groomers is allowing children to feel like they are equals with the groomer, giving them autonomy, trusting their decisions, treating them like an adult to gain trust. Which Brenner does with Henry. El in s4 is treated vaguely similarly as Brenner wants for them to be equals while saving the world, he lets her take charge of NINA while in the program. (yet he doesn't like not having control and kept treating el like a child once again taking a parental role) (i believe this lack of respect is what let henry and el breakaway from brenner as the blindfold of familial comfort was taken off as they aged and this childlike protection was a barrier for their growth and not the only safety/freedom they could have)

Brenner+Hop parallels. El tells Hopper that he "is like Papa" and the scene itself is exactly what Brenner was doing. Hopper isolates El for a whole year, Brenner kept El isolated before and after the HNL Massacre, Hopper is also the only person El has contact with during that year. Hopper puts himself into a parental position for El, he also replaces Sara (and also his ex-wife imo) with El forcing a familial relationship with her. Much like Brenner taking over a parental relationship with Henry+El+Lab kids, taking them away from their parents and becoming their "Papa". Which Hopper does as well, hiding Terry Ives and El's birth name Jane from El to instead lure El to his cabin and keep her trapped their (much like the lab). Hopper also has the same push pull relationship with El, comforting/protecting her while also being the cause of her emotional (sometimes physical) distress. El's breakdowns in s2 are both tied to Hopper lying to her and keeping her trapped inside, he then later comes back with things that he is sure will comfort her and bring her back to him. He is used to this cycle so it's safe to assume El is too, Hopper will cause emotional distress in EL (through the isolation) and then comfort her. El is dependent on Hopper for everything like she was with Brenner in the lab. S3+4 don't make it better seeing how Hopper involves himself so heavily in her life with a strict curfew and several rules. He continues to present himself a father which is what Brenner does in s4, showing how both of them are way to emotionally invested in replacing familial relationships they don't have by controlling El.

I think I could go on for Mike+Nancy and Henry / Creel+Wheeler parallels for a while but I don't know much about the Creels so I do not want to say too much. (i also don't subscribe to genetic creelers theory i just like their parallels) The family themselves match up well except the fact that both Nancy and Mike fit into the role of Henry. Both of them being attached to the upside down through Vecna who is an extension of the MF. Henry is isolated from his family emotionally, Mike is also isolated from his family. He is visually and emotionally separated them from Karen+Ted (neither of them try to reach out to mike post fake-body while karen is seen several times to try and pry nancy open to talk to her) Henry+Alice and Mike+Holly parallels, both the younger sisters getting trapped by an extension of the MF. (all information from the show alone i have not seen the stageplay) I could pull more but there is a parallel, not sure how important this is to the rest of MikeHop but it's there. If Hop parallels Brenner and Mike parallels Henry then the Locked Car scene is an extension of the Brenner+Henry drama.

Drawing back to what I've said about Hopper using grooming tactics on El similar tactics can be found in his relationship with Mike. The push pull relationship and the specialization of their relationship. Hopper causes emotional distress in El and then comforts her making her emotionally reliant on Hopper. Hopper also causes emotional distress in Mike and then will comfort him. S2 Hopper causes a breakdown in Mike due to him keeping the knowledge of El's safety a secret but also through his reaction to Mike reuniting with El and rightfully being angry at him. Then in the same scene after grabbing and manhandling him (which would not help the breakdown in anyway) proceeds to comfort Mike. Many believe Hop is offering fatherly comfort in this scene to a kid who has just been through hell which would add onto the replacing a parental figure technique (thats not something that fits mikehop just thought I would mention it) The specialization happens in the previous scenes and a lot in s3. S2 Mike spends a lot of time with Joyce and Hopper, where both adults give him some sense of authority. Joyce lets Mike adultify himself and Hopper listens to Mikes ideas and plans. He talks to/looks at Mike specifically about El in the last episode of s2. At the end of s3 Hopper looks at Mike alone and tells him to be safe despite both El and Max being right there as well. S4 Hopper has a whole emotional reunion with El and later has a similar one with Mike. Mike relationship with Hopper is also highlighted. The Locked Car scene can also be added for this but the strangeness of that scene is important to me. The Locked Car scene in s3 always raised red flags for me imo. It's similar to the scene of Max and Billy from s2 and Billy was abusive (neil and billy remind me of brenner and henry). Mike has never been afraid of Hopper this is the only time he has shown to be afraid of an authority figure, he stayed brave faced against Lab men. Hopper's anger is very different in this scene he isn't lashing out he is controlled, this adds to the terrifying nature of the scene. S4 brings up the idea of "don't talk to cops alone" I think that can be applied to this situation, don't talk to a cop alone in a locked car. The cut is placed in such a way we get some of the threat, none of the car ride, and none of the fallout. Mike in the next episode is shown to be uncomfortable with the idea of even talking about what happened. Lucas asks if Hopper threatened to kill mike (which he has) yet Mike doesn't tell Lucas that, he doesn't even tell Lucas that he was right with that assumption. He goes silent and refuses to elaborate. It's a red flag, if Mike was angry he would be complaining about everything Hopper said but he's not. Mike is still scared of whatever happened in the car that we didn't see. If it was anyone else and Hop's anger was taken seriously this scene would be terrifying and not the funny joke its become. I think this adds onto the push pull relationship I've mentioned but it also has its own category of keep Hop away from kids imo.

The reason for all of this I believe is that Hopper sees both him and his ex-wife in mileven's relationship. I've mentioned before that El is a replacement for Hop's entire family, including his wife. Mike is very anti authority, he fights back against Hopper, he's aggressive at times and very rash, he's strong willed. Hopper describes his younger self with anecdotes of fighting against his father, not respecting his father or authority, making rash decisions like joining the military, and being an aggressive kid (and an aggressive adult). The way Hop describes himself is similar to how Mike act and how Hop sees him. Hop believes he is the reason why Sara died and his wife left him, his wife left him due to his overwhelming grief that turned into the anger issues he had as a kid. Him projecting the same fears onto mileven is rational. He sees twos kid, one his daughter and the other that reminds him of himself, and he wants to make sure the same mistakes don't get repeated. If that means rejecting El's autonomy to keep her trapped and in his eyes safe he will do it. If that means manipulating and controlling Mike to be better in the ways Hop couldn't he will do it. Hop isn't against doing terrible things to get what he wants, he's good at pushing aside the fact his actions are bad as long as he gets the outcome he wants. I do believe he struggles with feeling guilty when it doesn't relate to people he considers direct family. He is willing to do so much to keep his family safe when in fact what he does ends up hurting them. Like despite his desire to keep El safe locking her up like this is only hurting her.

At the end of all of this I'm not saying Hop is actively grooming El+Mike rather his relationships with the both of them are similar to Brenner's relationship with El. (or maybe i'm saying he did idk im cursed with pattern recognition and fear for elmike) Similar actions for similar and different reasons. I would say all of the actions I've listed from Hop could be unconscious but he still does do them and he is a shitty person. I do believe however that he was trying to micromanage their relationship which led to some of the issues they had to face in s4+timeskip. I think s4 also leads into their relationship with Hopper in s5. S4 El has to go through Brenner again but this time when he tries to control her with fatherly affection it doesn't work as well because she isn't given much respect, much like Brenner and an older Henry imo. She takes this lesson and is able to apply it to Hopper, Hopper keeps trying to go back to the father daughter relationship they had when she was younger which is not what El needs. She needs Hop to respect her autonomy and her choices which is why she's so bitchy with her in vol1. But he refuses to give her that respect trying to manipulate her with 1. Sara 2. her name Jane and 3. childhood memories. Mike learns the opposite lesson from El in which he doesn't try to fight against Hop's manipulations but instead goes along with what Hopper wants. While yes El and Mike do fix their relationship someone, they both learn to trust each other and be more open. But Hopper is the one who put the idea that Mike isn't good enough for El in his head in s3 which is what he's most insecure about in s4, his anxieties were proven right in his mind at least. So he becomes what Hop wanted him to be, a "better" version on himself. The person Hop couldn't be, Mike becomes someone that wouldn't ruin a relationship. He doesn't interact with Hopper in s5 but in s4 he initiates the hug with Hopper (which hopper happily accepts even though their relationship hasn't been close since s2) and Mike imo would not hug Hopper. Mike isn't shown to hug anyone but his friends and his mom, Mike has had a complex relationship with Hopper and especially after s3 it should be worse. The hug to me indicates that Mike is giving in to Hopper and agreeing with Hopper's view instead of his own and that is why Hopper is willing to give Mike a hug back.

All of this just ties back into the grooming themes of many of the characters in ST. Especially those closely related to the UD but I'm sure there are many others who can explain that better but willelmike continuously suffer. Hop Brenner parallels come kick me in the ass all the time, get them both away from kids. I do want to throw in the term emotional incest because I do see it applying to Brenner and Henry+El+Lab kids and it kind of connects to what I was saying abt mileven and Hop/Ex-Wife projection. But I didn't want to learn too heavily on that as it's just not what I'm trying to saw here. Do I know what I'm trying to say, not really. Keep Hop away from Elmike lmao.

[uhhyupmlb]

WHY JANCY BREAK UP ACTUALLY SUPPORTS BYLER ENDGAME AND MILKVAN BONES

Now hear me out.

(Disclaimer none of this is slander to any of these ships or to invalidate them, I still think personally Jonathan/Nancy have a bit more to them than Mileven but - this is just something I noticed)

So the Duffers have stated that Jancy break up was supposedly “a long time coming” and the reason for this is that they had shared trauma and bonded through these supernatural events but it was “clear that Nancy always needed to be independent” and they both just kind of held on to each other because they didn’t really know what else to do and sort of felt pressured to stay. “They felt like they HAD to stay together” there’s a video interview about it I’ll put a part of it here.

This was interesting to me because it felt kind of similar to how a lot of us or at least Byler’s see Milkvan.

It has always been super obvious that El needed and craved independence, to be a girl, to be someone outside of the men in her life and just to have a family and a normal life.

“Not Hopper, not Mike. You”

“There’s more to life than stupid boys”

We see her time and time again set up to be on her own in scene compositions, in dialogue and in the actual plot.

We also know that Mike and El only met through this supernatural plot line and also bonded in a way over shared trauma and what they went through.

If Byler’s are correct also. Then it makes sense why Mike would feel like he “had to stay” because of his internalised homophobia and need to feel normal, to “stay on a normal path” as Finn has stated multiple times. It also makes sense because he does love El in a certain way that you can’t fake after all they’ve been through and she’s saved him time and time again, he sees her as this amazing superhero and he’s indebted to her.

El on the other hand wants to be a normal girl and what she’s seen in tv shows and in real life is that normal girls get to be pretty and they dress up and they date boys. She loves Mike too and they’re both bonded. They feel like they have to stay together because it just “makes sense” in a world of conformity. Right?

Now looking back on it, El and Mike / Jonathan and Nancy have actually had kind of similar arcs

(not completely, there’s honestly a lot more lovely moments and redeeming parts of Jancy than Mileven … sorry not sorry 😞 but let’s keep going)

So. Both couples have a sort of build up in season one where it toes the line of following where this supernatural plot leads/working together and possible romance hinted throughout. We have them work together and therefore become closer, we have Jonathan staying over at the Wheelers and Nancy keeping that a secret, we also have El staying over at the Wheelers and Mike keeping that a secret. Then we have moments in which the two parings fight (Jancy in the woods and Mileven after finding Will … and then again after Lucas …actually a few times but anyways), and then they come back together again after a traumatic event in which Nancy was in trouble - in the upside down and Jonathan saves her and brings her back - then with Mike he’s also in trouble, he’s jumped off a literal cliff and El saves him and brings him back. Then both pairings hug and make up. THEN we have that scene of Mike and Nancy at the school where Mike asks “so do you like Jonathon now?” And Nancy says “no it’s…not like that” and then “Do you like Eleven?”, to which Mike responds “NO! Ew, gross!”

So we can see that both pairs have been set up not exactly the same but in a similar structure throughout this season. However, neither get together in the end of it - El disappears into the upside down and Jonathan disappears back to his family and so Nancy goes back to Steve and Mike isn’t sure whether El is even alive. Meaning they both are left unresolved and set up for audiences wanting more in season two.

Which then brings us to the second season.

In this season the two don’t follow arcs just as closely as season one, but this is still the season in which both couples “yearn” for each other and have a “will they won’t they?” Sort of deal going on. This season in my opinion is probably where Jancy actually parallels season 4 Byler the most and Stancy parallels season 4 Mileven so obviously this couple IS multifaceted and there’s more to the story - but this is a perspective I feel that we’ve overlooked because of this. So season two is still sort of building up from where we left off in season 2. In Jancy’s case, they work together again and with a little push they come together finally!!! They kiss and fans are ecstatic. They end the build up of them this season, leaving them off with their scene at the snowball, smiling at each other from across the hall and it was lovely, it seemed right. Mileven don’t actually spend like ANY of the season together but the creators definitely build up the suspense of them wanting to reach each other and then finally having their reunion that the audience is rooting for, finally!!! Their final scene is at the snowball together, smiling and then they share a kiss and fans are ecstatic.

Then comes season 3.

In this third season, the couples once again have a different yet eerily similar storyline.

This is the season in which each of our characters sort of lose themselves to find themselves.

With Mike and El, we start off seeing them as this overly lovey dovey couple in El’s room, making out. This makes Mike late for the movies with his friends and he bikes hurriedly out of there. We find out this is something they regularly do from Hopper.

With Nancy and Jonathan, we start off seeing them in bed together in Jonathan’s room, Jonathan with a kiss mark on his face - both late for work and rushing out of there. We can gather that this is something they either do regularly or at least have done before by the way in which the characters each treat the situation and Joyce is not surprised.

We then have a Nancy and Jonathan have a pretty bad fight due to outside circumstances (their job and boss firing them) where they just don’t seem to understand each other and though it’s not a breakup - the two are very distant from each other after and it’s noted that they aren’t talking until the team gets back together, with how Jonathan doesn’t know what Nancy was doing at the hospital and the others chiming in “you weren’t there?” and Lucas and the others reacting to the couples obvious tension. Season 3 is rocky for them.

For Mike and El they not only fight but break up but still it’s a fight cause by outside circumstances (Hopper and then in turn Mike lying because of him) and the two can’t seem to understand each other “why do you lie?” and El dumps him.

This season is arguably her happiest - she leans into her independent side and through Max gets to discover who SHE is. Not who she is to everyone else.

For Nancy, I wouldn’t say it’s her happiest, however it’s clear that she’s starting to go on a self discovery journey of her own. She fights back at her job where the men don’t respect her and her mother, Karen, encourages her to seek more than what they believe she can offer as a woman.

So through the help of other women, Nancy and El find a strength in themselves again that has nothing to do with supernatural powers or Nancy knock em down Wheeler. It’s independent of their partners and it is feminine and it is beautiful.

Hopeful.

For Mike - he tries to stay on that normal path and he wallows and then with Lucas’ encouragement he eventually tries to win El back. Sort of.

Mike is waylaid by his emotional arc with Will for a second there and then they head right into the battle again.

For Jonathan, we don’t see much of an emotional arc outside of this unfortunately but we do know that when they head into battle again he realises Nancy was right and tries to also win Nancy back in a way in which he is honest and caring and admits he was wrong.

Both Jonathan and Mike make their “apologies” (I put this is quotations because idk if Mike’s can really be considered a proper apology lol - but regardless, they both make up in not so many words), at the hospital.

They make up at the hospital - Jancy in the Elevator and Mileven in the lobby (with Lucas’ encouragement - but Mike’s arc is a bit different from Jonathan’s… so I think we all know why this is - anyways).

They’ve both made up but there’s a lot of other supernatural stuff going on and drama with El’s powers. We get through it all and then we win the battle but lose a few people in the process.

We go to our final scenes where the Byers and El are moving away.

Jancy having a touching scene in an empty bedroom where they talk about their shared trauma and say a regretful but sweet goodbye.

Mileven have a scene in an almost empty bedroom (everything except Will’s damn teddy bear… right) and there scene is definitely a little more seperate and stagnant than Jancy’s but they still both reach similar conclusions that as the audience we understand both couples are together and saying goodbye and hold love for each other (I’m not gonna speak on Mike’s reactions in this scene cause I think it speaks for itself and I’m trying to focus solely on the parallels of their two relationships for now)

So Nancy and Mike stand watching from the Byers house as El and Jonathan (and Will 👀) drive away from them.

They’re losing their trauma bonded other half’s right now. It’s clearly going to be different from here on out no matter what.

So season 4.

Both Mileven and Jancy spend almost the entire season apart and have established issues where they are lying to each other about one thing or another from the very start.

Jonathan about his application to Emerson and trying to slow motion break up.

Nancy about having to stay behind to work when she just didn’t want to go to California.

Mike not being able to say I love you and then also presenting a ‘knock off’ front when arriving in California. (Among other things).

El about countless things - her life in California, her friends, her grades, her mental health. Almost everything really.

It’s not looking good.

For El and Mike they now parallel Stancy a lot just before they broke up and made room for Jancy.

While Mike and Will obviously grow back together.

El is focusing on regaining her powers so she can end Vecna and save Max/end this.

Mike is focusing on getting El back so they can get to Hawkins to help - but he’s also struggling a lot with all this relationship stuff and some emotions bubbling under the surface.

For Jonathan and Nancy - nancy grows closer to Robin, Steve again and just the kids. She loses another friend and is focusing on her reporting as well as killing Vecna, saving Max and ending this.

Jonathan is focusing on helping El and getting to Hawkins to help, while struggling under the surface to be that support person for his brother and take care of his family.

We then have the “I love you” scene - I’m not gonna speak on it, as many have before and it was very clearly a bunch of bull and literally did nothing to empower El and save Max and stop Hawkins from splitting in four 😭 so …

But after Mileven are barely talking as Mike states and El ignores him, going into her room and closing the door on him at the cabin.

Jancy are also at the cabin and have a sort of awkward conversation where they are talking but not saying what they mean and dancing around the truth once again. That is where we leave both couples off.

The only difference is the very last scene on the hill with Jancy together and Byler together and El on her own.

But once again this is foreshadowing El’s independence arc.

Not sure YET what this means for Jancy.

But here is what we know for sure now.

The duffers stated they’ve been breaking down Jancy since the beginning. It seems they built them up for 2 season and they started dissecting their relationship and allowing us to see the cracks forming from season three to four, to nothing in five until they broke up.

They follow an almost (almost) identical formula to Mileven (though Milevens is arguably more obvious), who were also built up for two seasons and then dissected, broken down and cracked from season 3 to four until nothing in 5.

Both relationships were so lost and reduced in season 5 it’s been hard to see them as a suitable and lovable relationship. There’s no romance between them - this lead to SO MANY truths coming out that Jancy had been holding in and then a beautiful and amicable break up. It makes 100% sense with how they’ve done everything else I just mentioned that they could now do the same thing for Mileven and hopefully very well.

On top of this - it seems that for the most part…the couples that came together through the upside down events (e.g. Jancy, Mileven etc.) are doomed.

But you know who isn’t?

Couples that came together from childhood/school friendships/outside of the upside down - e.g. Jopper, Lumax, Rovickie etc. and NOW … hopefully BYLER.

Mike and Will have known each other for YEARS, way before the upside down and all this other trauma. They didn’t bond through that - they bonded through friendship. They met in school and connected on joint interests. They were already established as having a connection before the UD, from their very first scene together and one on one scene.

Lucas and Max met in school, connected through joint interests of arcade games, Halloween etc and already had that established before the UD came into it.

Jopper were the ultimate slow burn, they knew each in school, knew each other for years after and went seperate ways before coming back together and THEN the UD came into it.

Rovickie - tho less developed unfortunately, also met through school and was a sweet crush with joint interest in band and shared humour and then volunteering together and then getting together all before Vickie even knew about the UD in this season.

Yes they all have some form of shared trauma and yes they’re all different and the same in many ways.

But I think it’s clear to see which relationships the duffer brothers see as deeper and meaningful and meant for the endgame.

It’s not Mileven.

It IS Byler.

Thanks for listening.

(I posted this on twt too but like no one follows me on there so… here Tumblr #believe)