#exploded lion primary

[wisteria-lodge]

(un)exploded lion primary + burnt snake secondary

Hi! Wisteria. I just discovered sorting hat chats a not long ago. The test put me as Lion primary but none of the secondary seems fit. Could you, by any chance, help me? I would love to confirm if I'm a lion primary or not and my secondary if able.

I'm currently 23 if that helps. Been out and about in the real world not too long. 

My understanding of the primary is motivations and drive. I'm driven by vision of what I want in life. There is something I want to see no matter what. Before, I used to be very enthusiastic about it and hopeful it'll come to pass. As I'm working in real world however I was hit very hard with the reality and my limitations. I still want to see my vision a reality. But I'm no longer confident I can make it happen.

Well, I'm definitely seeing that Lion primary. And it looks like we've got us a Burned secondary.

Before, I'm very judgmental, confident and dynamic. I moved with total confidence in myself and where I'm going. I was very confident in my own conscience and was willing to risk my hide for it. I fought with people on daily basis on political, societal and moral issues. I was so assertive, in fact, that I unintentionally suffocated my friends. I pushed them and molded them to be what I deemed appropriate. I tone-policed them. I brought them along in some humanitarian projects I founded believing their abilities better spent bettering people's lives.

For a time, they went along with me. Until it all came apart... They resented me all along. And they hate me even now.

Oooh. Looks like we've got an Exploded Lion primary in the process of healing. Because yeah. Check for seeing/treating people as tools, check for 'the ends always justify the means,' we've even got words like "judgmental" "molded" "deemed appropriate," that speak to the Exploded Lion "enemy or ally" world view. I'm sorry it all fell apart as dramatically as it did. But you're only 23. You've got plenty of time to rebuild stronger.

I never regretted what I have done. The only regret I have is that I didn't communicate and ask them. I shouldn't have pushed and manipulated them. But did I regret the things I accomplished with them? No. Everything, I did, every impact I left behind was a product of my beliefs (human rights, that every ethnic group should be equals, how we can coexist with nature and how we can progress without abandoning the ways of life but improve it).

Hmm. Casual dropping of the word "manipulate" is making me think maaaaybe Snake secondary. Although Snakes almost never actually use the word "manipulating" when describing themselves. Although sometimes when they're burnt they do...

Here's the thing. We need firebrands like you. But what I don't want is for you to burn yourself out and/or burn every bridge you've got. You're not going to get much done that way.

I believe it is my duty, as someone who can do it, to speak for people and things that cannot speak for themselves. Even though it's not my job and won’t affect me in anyway.

Take a second, now. You've just told me that you tried to speak for your friends, and they resented you for it and that made everything fall apart. Take your own advice and ask. Setting yourself up to be the sole, lone savior is just setting yourself up for a fall.

I want to make sure that we can coexist with nature in harmony. As much as a lone human can do anyway. Even if I have to be alone or be remembered as a monster in doing so. It might not be correct in universal sense, but I will not budge on it. I felt hurt that my judgment so wrongfully made my friends miserable and traumatized. But I’ll keep going no matter what I have to sacrifice. I’m willing to devote my entire life to make sure people and nature can coexist in this transitional era. We are in the transitional era. We are about to move toward a new age.

... a brighter age. A BETTER age. An AGE... OF MUTANTS!!!

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I only mean to tease a little. Only I read this entire paragraph in the voice of Ian McKellen's Magneto.

(to the degree that I'm considering Double Lion for you. It is the Revolutionary sorting, after all.)

The thing is, I now see the limitations of myself. I was too impulsive. I managed to maneuver myself into a dead-end. Well, not a dead end per se. I can still claw my way out and get back on track. But it will take 10 if not 100 times of efforts.

This is all very brute-force Lion secondary language.

I don’t have a good degree. No work experience. No connections. And definitely no money to my name. I have nothing. I am on the verge of giving up entirely.

... you know, objectively? Almost no one has those things when they are 23. You're not even old enough to rent a car yet (in the US, where I am.) You're going to be okay.

I know that my dream is meant to be, but I’m not sure I will ever be good enough to hold it in my hands in my lifetime. I question everything my dream stands for.

Accomplishing this dream is not up to you, personally. And just because it's not something that you personally accomplish in your lifetime does not mean your effort was wasted. I'm not much of a "Great Man Theory" person. The way I see it, change is made by groups of people. (It's the Badger secondary.)

I don’t dare to judge anyone anymore. I’m just a failure, someone who got kicked out of the job. I’m not good enough.

In terms of the system, all this is burnt secondary talk. 'My primary thinks that xyz is correct, but my secondary cannot accomplish it.' Your primary recently took a pretty massive hit, and it does take a second for Lion primaries to change directions.

I was too vindictive and deliberately sabotaged my job to get back at my team. But I also knew that I was not smart and practical. I’m too slow and dumb. I lost all my shine and confidence in myself.

Okay, well. You did a dumb thing because you were angry, and have since regretted it. But the rest.... just sounds like you're in the Dunning-Kruger trough. You thought you were hot shit, because you didn't have the experience to know better. You've since leaned it's more complicated than you thought, and are in the process of taking steps to do what you do better.

I want to be less ruthless and kinder. Thing is, I never manage to.

As far as I'm concerned, wanting to be less ruthless and kinder is half the battle. Especially since you've been pretty self-aware when it comes to pointing out those tendencies so far, and pretty realistic about the ways they sabotage you.

Compare to my friends or family, I am a lot more ruthless, vengeful and sadistic even.

It's a Lion primary thing to think that how you feel now is you, is identity, and will always be you. But Lions who want to change can change the same as anyone else, even if it sometimes takes them longer to do it.

I can tolerate abuse for a very long time

... why?

but if I have even a smallest chance. I’ll make sure they’ll regret even living. I talked jokingly with my sister, if I hate someone. I won’t kill them. Say, if they have an accident. I will make sure they survive but I’ll make them live in as much pain as possible. I will rip them of their future and hope. If they want to build their own business, I will make sure they can’t even dream of it.

... okay, right. You know, I have seen these... fun vengeance fantasies with other Exploded primaries. I think it's a pattern. Although, to be fair, I don't get that many Exploded primaries writing into me. If you're writing in, it's because you've got some degree of self-reflection and doubt, which you probably don't have much of if you're Exploded.

Same goes for people who stand in my way. If you are willing, I’m open for a negotiation. But if you get in my way, I will make sure to cripple them to the point they can’t stand anymore. I will destroy their hope, dreams, friendship, network. I won’t crush their business but their souls. I’ll make sure they are nothing but a soulless husk that can’t ever stand in my way, or my people’s ways.

.... and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants will rise stronger than ever before, etc etc. Don't worry Magneto, I've got that part. :)

I believe I understand now why my family and friends call me a monster. I’m trying to use it for good though. Although I still have a very long and arduous way to go before I can make something worthwhile for everyone. I do want love and acceptance, but maybe that’s beyond me.

I really don't think you're a monster. I think you're young, I think you're passionate, I think you've got a simplistic worldview (that you're working on) and that you've got some power fantasies you like to turn over in your mind at a point in your life where you feel very powerless.

Potential theory though. You do use dehumanizing language like "monster" for yourself, and the other vengeance-fantasy asks came from Exploded Badgers. And you DO talk a lot about your community, and things like tone-policing definitely are a kind of etiquette. It's possible that you're an Exploded Authoritarian Badger who lost their community, and coped by 1) kicking themselves out of their definition of "person" 2) clinging really hard to a Lion worldview. That is totally possible.

(But 'partially exploded Lion' is also still possible, and simpler, and I always go for the simplest possible explanation with these things.)

I don’t know what my secondary is. I don’t like surprises. I hate sudden change in plans. One thing I know though, I love learning new knowledge but only on what I am interested in. I do not feel like I’m attached to knowledge or resources. After all, everything is fleeting. I operate best when I’m left to my own device with clear objectives though.

Hmm. Maybe a little prep-work secondary flavored, but this is just people stuff. Even the most fluid Snake secondary doesn't like it when there's a last minute change in plans, or a really unclear objective.

I will find a way to get it done on my own, using what I have at hands. Lying is like a second nature to me though. I know when to lie to get what I want. I lie all the time, but to me, it’s just ‘coloring the story’. I don’t feel the need to stay true to myself all the time. I adapt to people easily and take on their language and mannerism fast. If anything, sticking to the truth about myself and how I feel takes conscious efforts.

And you didn't connect with the description of Snake? Because this is a description of Snake.

I’m not a very fast learner. But I can ‘appear’ as competent and knowledgeable very easily. In work environment, for example, I adopt the language, mannerism and jargons of more knowledgeable seniors. I manage to charm many clients this way. I don’t know that well what I’m doing, but enough to convince people and build up their confidence. I know it in my gut I’m still not good enough or competent enough. Way worse than my colleagues. Yet I manage to convince all the higher-ups that I’m the front runner among all new recruits. I’m still naïve, unorganized and not knowledgeable enough. But somehow I hid all those things and appeared to have ‘potentials’. So much so the head of my department picked me as his personal assistant to personally train me (a very good prospect of advancement). Until it all unraveled.

Yeah, you're a Snake. (With a little bit of imposter syndrome, which is Really Normal when you've started at a new job.)

When I have to talk with people, in interviews or meetings. I will not try to appear all shiny and glamorous. People usually expect that because it's natural for us to put best foot forward. I'll double down on it and bare myself open (to garner sense of accessibility, lower their guard and hold their attention). For example, I will not glorify my accomplishments but I'll list out my failures. Then I'll top it with 'but I believe that is my strength. I know what it's like to fail. I might not be the best or have the most glamorous resume but what I have is determination and will to succeed. I would really love it, if I could grow and be of use to you and your company' Or something along that line. But that depends on people and situations. I'd say, I just respond to what people expect and try to appeal to them in a way they appreciate.

^ Snake. And that's a pretty good speech. I think that would probably work on me. I know that personally I can be a little suspicious of people who are too shiny, and too charming. :D

How I did it is a mystery to me though. I have absolutely no idea what I have done to appear that way. Or what I did to convince them of that perception.

I mean, you just laid out your strategy. You adopt the language of the person you're talking to, while also stressing your passion for the job, and your own shortcomings - using that both as a way to make yourself seem more trustworthy, and a tactic so they can't use that info against you. A very cohesive, laid-out strategy. Snake.

(Same goes for my old friends, I didn’t know what I did it keep them on the leash but I did it). But I don't relate to Snake sec because I'm not that slick or playful. If anything, I'm intense and blunt.

Yeah, because you've got an intense and blunt primary that you live in kind of a lot. I don't think it would be at all a bad thing for you to live in your Snake secondary a little more, for a change.

I really apologize if this is too long, or if you feel sickened or repulsive. I figure I need to layout myself without coloring it. If you could help me figure it out, that would be great!

Don't worry about me. I'm good. And I really do appreciate the self-knowledge, and the honesty, and the vulnerability. (Just no coming at me with random hate mail, okay. So far, Exploded Lions have been the only ones to do that.) You're on the right track. Just keep moving forward.

Thank you in advance and hope you have a good week ahead!

:)

[mooglesorts]

some 7 days: decide your story sorting thoughts after the cut, philio edition, because i love him. ending spoilers below!

---

Philio

philio is 100% an exploded lion primary. with a REALLY LOUD exploded badger model, but he's definitely not a badger. for one thing because he doesn't seem inclined to dehumanize anyone, even the undead; for another, he's absolutely willing to let people get hurt for the sake of the cause (including himself). 

i briefly considered bird for him, because he values the test so much as an external thing that shows you who really are, but given everything else about him and his themes i'm thinking probably not. he’s all about immovable, rock-solid certainty in his cause, and any attempt to reason otherwise with him rolls off him like oil off a duck’s back. 

another interesting thing is that on the surface his morality seems to be fairly obvious ‘be kind do good help everyone...’ but when you look at it closer, it’s a little bit to the left. the actions that lower or increase his approval are actually really hard to predict until you’ve played it a few times, and have made an effort to pay attention to his actual goals and morals. otherwise, so much of the time his opinion just seems like it’s contradicting itself. 

this could be a birdy thing--building his systems around logic, just maybe not the logic you’re expecting--but the way he goes about it also seems very lion-flavored. he doesn’t explain the underlying systems well, and he certainly doesn’t seem willing to change them; he just says things and expects other people to understand, end up at the same conclusions he did, and act on it. he comes across to me as a lion with a bird model, but instead of the classic--using it to replace his intuition because he doesn’t trust it--he uses it to convince other people that he’s Right, and explain to them how to follow his morals. except he’s, uh. not great at doing that! because he leaves out some pretty critical factors in his logic! it’s all so self-evident to him!

and my GOD will he judge you if you don’t follow his morals. on the flipside, no matter how far you’ve gone against them, the moment you turn around and start going The Right Way he’ll be completely fine with you again. which... on the surface it’s almost like he models bird, only it’s how he thinks everyone else should act, and in some ways it’s kind of admirable: he believes it’s never too late to turn back and start doing better. except that for him, the emphasis isn’t on so much changing your system; it’s on whether you were secretly a good person all along and just had to dig down beneath surface-level shittiness to reveal it. it’s REALLY unsettling. 

(side note: this is by his standards! sometimes those standards are 'willing to do morally dubious things, in this case shoot a willing victim, to reach the goal you’ve set yourself on when there's absolutely no other way. but while refusing to kill unwilling people or do harm otherwise.' hell, that's how you get the best ending. it’s also entirely possible that he just really wants kirell to live, hence the contradiction; he doesn’t judge you or show any disapproval if you can’t bring yourself to kill him. either he’s working off a logic system here that i still haven’t quite figured out, which leans more bird, or he’s a lion who goes with his gut when it comes to what he thinks is right and therefore contradicts himself a lot.)  

the secondary, now... the secondary is harder.

initially i thought he was a self-hating snake secondary with a lion model, but now i'm not so sure? he values truth and authenticity above all else, but a lot of the language he uses and the way he approaches it feels very... burned snake who's consciously choosing to tie their own hands behind their back, and forgo their masks, because they think that's the right thing to do. he's really, really frustrated by people not believing him, even when he's baring his intentions as much as he possibly can--them being suspicious of him because he’s trying so hard to convince him he’s being genuine, even. this might be a lion thing, or it might be ‘oh come the fuck on, i burned my snake already, what more do you want from me?’ talking. 

a point that seem to lean in favor of lion: the fact that he’s so oblivious to the fact that people will be freaked out by his sheer frankness, especially about his motives and the things he’s willing to do for them. he realizes he’s distressing kirell by inviting her to kill him for her test, and is just like ‘oh. i’ve upset you, haven’t i. sorry about that (offer still stands, though).’ i feel like a self-hating snake secondary would probably be more aware that people could be upset by too much honesty about something like that, instead of it just not occurring to him... but it might also be that he’s neurodivergent and relies so much on masks to socialize like a ‘normal’ person. when he doesn’t have them available because he’s refusing to use them, he doesn’t know what’s appropriate, or how to tell that it’s not going over well, until the signs are obvious enough for him to pick up on them.

another point that initially seems to lean lion, but seems more snakey on closer inspection: throughout the game there’s only one part i can think of where he outright lies about something, and he’s brutally honest about some things, but at other times he’s perfectly willing to be cryptic, leave out information, and work with ulterior motives (benevolent though they may be). you might read that as a particularly slippery lion being selective about what parts of the truth they choose to emphasize, but i think the major thing that makes me lean burned snake is how he behaves in the bad endings. 

if you turn out to be a piece of shit, on the last day he gets blisteringly sarcastic and passive-aggressive, and taunts you with things like ‘oh, who, me? not like you very much? no no no, of course not, where would you get that idea. :^))))’ that kind of spiteful delight in playing with the truth reads a whole lot more to me as a hurt, furious burned snake, bleeding through the iron control they normally have over their masks, than a pissed-off lion. which REALLY says something about the sheer strength of that lion primary, because holy shit. 

...you know what? yeah, snake. i’m gonna call snake on this one.

Verdict for Now: Lion Snake, Babey! (with bird and badger primary models, and lion secondary model.)

[wisteria-lodge]

Do you have any trick to know whenever you are a Bird Primary or a Lion Primary please ? I tried the exploding trick and it didn’t work since at my worst I was a mix of viewing people who didn’t share my ideals as the enemy and being paralyzed by how much I didn’t know and thus unable to make a decision or form an opinion (very nasty and dark period of my life I wish I could erase).

Being paralyzed by how much you don't know and unable to make a decision is a Bird primary thing (not knowing what to do can SOMETIMES be a Burnt Secondary thing, but in this context it seems it to be coming from the primary.)

The tricky thing always about sorting and identifying Birds is that they can build themselves a system that looks like pretty much anything, so you have to look at how they believe, how their beliefs are built, and how their beliefs change. Burnt Birds also have a way of looking like very miserable Lions... but yeah, this isn't an Exploded Lion ask. Exploded Lions don't doubt.

If anything, I think your Bird was more Burnt than exploded, that whole 'I do not trust my ability to reason' thing. Exploded Birds are more Birds who break their ability to take in information - they either stop taking in new information completely, or only take it from one very specific source, OR just get overwhelmed by taking in everything all the time to the point where they can't tell what's real or not.

[wisteria-lodge]

I’ve started thinking about Burnt Bird primaries as the exact inverse of Burnt Lion Primaries

A Lion primary burns because they are cut off from their ability to FEEL. A Bird primary burns because they are cut off from their ability to THINK. 

That’s why so many people are using “cult” as a go-to example for Burned Bird. Cults are that way - don’t ask questions, don’t think about it too hard, we promise it’ll all make sense eventually. This is also why Inspector Javert is such a good example of a Burned Bird. Fundamentally, he doesn’t trust his ability to reason. He is good so long as he follows the letter of the Law exactly. He cannot edit or adapt or even question his system, and when he realizes it’s flawed he shatters. 

In the same way that Burned Lions can look like stressed-out Birds  (forced to a rely on an outside system when all they want to do is follow their gut) Burned Birds can look like extremely stressed-out Lions (trying to be happy doing something just Because It’s Right, when really they want some ability to check their math.) 

An Exploded Lion is someone who has leaned too far into their primary and cut off their ability to grow and change. Their way is Right and Correct because it JUST IS and if you don’t feel that way you are the enemy. There’s a persecution complex to the Exploded Lion. People who disagree are Out To Get Them. 

In the same way, an Exploded Bird is someone who has broken their ability to take in new information. Either they are taking in everything, discounting nothing and getting stressed and overwhelmed (think Chidi from The Good Place) OR they find ways to discount any new info that contradicts their system. Think Conspiracy Theorist. There are a million ways to debunk “the moon landing was fake” but none of those sources count because they’re government lies, or fake news, or Illuminati lobbyists or whatever. Exploded Birds go hard for the Ad Hominem fallacy: I disagree with a piece of data, because I disagree with its source as a whole. 

(This does make me realize that Agent Fox Mulder of the X-Files, charming as he is, is basically an Exploded Bird power fantasy. He really does live in a world where everything that contradicts his system is a carefully designed, deliberate deception.)  

[wisteria-lodge]

Character Analysis: Sorting Castiel

courtesy of the @sortinghatchats​ system.

LION PRIMARY - Sense of morality and ethics comes from inside. Things just feel right or they feel wrong.

First things first. I completely get why people are saying that Cas has to be a Snake primary with his morality and motivations bound up in the well-being of Dean Winchester. His whole love confession was very Snake-flavored - “I cared about the whole world because of you” - such a Snake thing to say. And we know (from a couple alternate-universe Castiels) that Dean is the reason he tore up his entire life and rebelled against Heaven. So far so Snake.

But I want to talk about one of those other Castiels for a second. Apocalypse!Cas (with the Slavic accent) is loyal to Heaven, sure. But he’s also... not doing great. This Cas is twitchy, stuttering, he’s got about 15 facial tics. He looks like he’s gone half mad. He is not the cold, detached, selfish and hyper-capable Burnt Snake I would expect in that situation (*cough* Soulless!Sam). That’s a Cas who on some deep level knows he’s doing wrong, and cares.

The way I see it, sure Dean may have pushed him over the edge, but Cas was already doubting. Even back in Season 4 he’s telling us, “I’m not a hammer. I have doubts,” and making cynical little asides like, “they don’t tell me much.” Heaven has a very strict Badger primary culture, and “crack in his chassis” Cas knows he doesn’t really fit.

Dean quickly becomes the most important thing Cas’ life because he represents a way out: another group to join, another set of values. Dean is a Badger (like the angels) but a softer Badger, one Cas has an easier time agreeing with. Dean’s even the prophesied “Righteous Man” which means his morality comes pre-approved by God. He becomes Cas’ replacement Heaven, his commanding officer. Dean’s coping mechanisms and mission statements become Cas’ coping mechanisms and mission statements. Castiel tries to be part of the world though him.

But it doesn’t work. Because Cas is not a Badger, no matter how hard he tries to be. The first time we see him truly angry is also the first time he sees Dean as morally flawed. Cas beats him up, yelling, “I rebelled for this?! So that you could surrender to them? I gave everything for you. And this this what you give to me?”  

He’s doing what a lot of Burned Lions do, looking for an external conscience that gels perfectly with their own felt morals. And then getting angry when that person turns out to be fallible. Cas goes on a quest to find God (ie morality/goodness/meaning) using Dean’s necklace as a guide. Then when he fails to find God, he acts like it’s Dean who has betrayed him.

So Castiel starts down the Path of the Unhealthy Lion Primary. He declares himself the new God (the most extreme version of Exploded Lion possible.) And when that doesn’t work, goes insane for a while. He gets amnesia, hears Leviathan voices in his head, actually spends time in a mental hospital. It’s a dramatic way of talking about a Lion primary who has no idea what their internal voice is saying anymore. The whole Naomi arc just underlines this one more time: Cas doesn’t know what he’s doing, because he is controlled by Heaven. So he needs to to break though his brainwashing and find his internal sense of rightness.

I’m also thinking Lion primary because in order to heal, Cas has to go off by himself, get internal, and just sit with his thoughts. That’s what he does alone in Purgatory and through a lot of his “becoming human” and “hiding the tablets” arcs. The most dramatic example is when he dies for the fifth time and is stuck talking to the Empty’s Personification (who happens to sound a whole lot like Apocalypse!Cas...) 

"I'm already saved. You can prance and you can preen and you can scream and yell and remind me of my failings but somehow, I'm awake. And I will stay awake and I will keep you awake until we both go insane. I will fight you. And fight you and fight you forever. For eternity."

This is the moment when he plants his feet, stares down impossible odds and goes No. You move. Cas has gone deep, found his meaning, found that inner voice that will keep him going - and keep him stable - and he will never let it be taken from him again. He’s become the heroic Lion primary.

And that’s the context a lot of metas are missing when they talk about Cas ending up in the Empty during Season 15. The Empty is a place of great strength for Cas. So during his confession when he says, “happiness isn't in the having. It's in just being. It's in just saying it,” what he’s saying that he’s complete in himself, without Dean. In that moment, Cas becomes somebody who doesn’t need to follow anyone anymore. And if Cas wanted to have a relationship with Dean after that, well, he’d be in a good enough headspace to do it.

BADGER SECONDARY - fair, hardworking, shows up. Good at getting people to trust them, good at getting people to help them. If they see a locked door, they knock. 

This is definitely how Cas problem-solves. He makes himself part of groups, and once he’s there he takes on support roles and caretakes. Sometimes he lays on the tough love a little harsh, and can seem kind of direct-Lion-secondary flavored. But I don’t think Cas even has a Lion secondary model. It’s just his loud primary shining through. There is a cleanness and straightforwardness to Cas’ methods that is important to him as a character, and makes him a nice contrast to the Winchesters, who model everything.

In the later seasons, after he gets a little healthier, Cas starts to build his own family (Kelly and Jack to start.) But even when he goes dark, he goes dark like a Badger – Cas the blackmailer, Cas the interrogator.

He builds things a little bit at a time. That’s how we saw him learn to be human. He’s inspirational and effortlessly attracts allies. Dean responds well to those Badger secondary you’re safe with me vibes. And even Cas’ idea of how to deal with Empty on his his dark night of the soul is so, so Badger: I will sit here, and keep at it, and argue with you forever.

tl;dr

LION PRIMARY that is first burnt, then exploded, then burnt again, then healed / BADGER SECONDARY

[wisteria-lodge]

exploded badger propaganda

So I was thinking about Exploded Primaries in general and Nico di Angelo (from the Percy Jackson books) in particular, and it seems to me that fictional Exploded Lions and Snakes are likely to be at least somewhat antagonistic, Exploded Birds can go either way, but Exploded Badgers are more likely to be protagonists.

Exploded Lions are likely to trample over other people in their haste to do stuff for their Cause, which tends to make them disliked by the fandom even if they’re mostly meant to be “good guys” (e.g. Dumbledore).

Exploded Snakes tend to have that creepy stalker obsessiveness with their People (e.g. Snape) which also tends to make them disliked, although now that I’m rereading @swearingintengwar’s initial post about exploded houses it doesn’t mention obsession, just us-versus-them mentality

An Exploded Bird who is stuck in inertia probably isn’t doing much plot-wise, but I could see a Bird Primary sinking into inertia and then getting out of it as part of either a redemption arc or a fall into darkness. A Javert-style Exploded Bird who refuses to rethink their worldview is probably an antagonist for similar reasons to an Exploded Lion.

Exploded Badgers, on the other hand, seem to mostly be (unhealthy) protagonists, probably because “giving too much to other people” is something society usually considers good albeit misguided. E.g. the aforementioned Nico is definitely an Exploded Badger during House of Hades and Blood of Olympus, although he seems to have healed his primary between Blood of Olympus and the Trials of Apollo series (thank you, Will). I’m sure an author could write an antagonist who dehumanizes large groups of people and then puts too much of themselves into antagonistic causes, but that seems a lot less common.

But maybe this is me being biased (being a Badger myself) or just because I’m not thinking of counterexamples? Was wondering what you thought.

It is weird that Exploded Badger is the only Exploded primary that is culturally regarded as good. Exploded Snakes and Exploded Birds are either framed as villainous or tragic. Exploded Lions could have been heroes if only they didn’t “go too far.” But Exploded Badgers - martyr yourself, give yourself to the world until there’s nothing left, you are too good for this sinful earth. There are a lot of stories that glorify that (… the giving tree.) And ugh, it’s so Victorian. 

[wisteria-lodge]

“What characters do you tend to love” is such an interesting question. I’m a Burned double Lion, I think, and I always fall for creepy Snakes. I like charismatic villains!! But the characters I think are awesome tend to be double Lions (Enjolras! Revolution now!!!) and the characters I identify with are Lion Badgers like Sansa Stark and Kaylee. Sometimes I end up hating Lion characters, though. I can’t stand Goku. He’s childish, naive, and just…cloyingly good. And I always thought Gale was evil for being willing to kill innocent people/civilians in his trap.

If you’re a Burned Lion primary, I am not surprised that you find someone as comically un-Burned as Goku as kind of annoying. It’s pretty common (if you’re burned) to see the un-Burned members of your house as... innocent at best, dumb and delusional at at worst. I also suspect that it’s common have an aversion to the Exploded members of your house. (The way you do to Gale.) Like, you get it. You see how under just the right circumstances that could be you, and it just makes your skin crawl. 

[wisteria-lodge]

an exploding lion primary

So. Uh.

Reading about Burnt Lions here has…it all sounds really familiar. As in ‘oh shit that me’. And it….it sucks. It really does.

I’m….trying to unBurn. I found a Cause that is right. But it’s-I am afraid of becoming awful via unBurning.

I’ve wanted to be a Snake or Badger for the longest time, but now I find myself looking at people, people I like, and thinking ‘if it’s you or my Cause, I’m dropping you like a hot rock’. And that just, it makes it really hard to actually care about them! To give a single solitary shit.

On top of that I’m-how do healthy Lions cope with people telling them they’re wrong? Or that they need to ‘show their work’ and justify the beliefs they hold?

I’m retreating from people even though I don’t want to because my Cause is literally an army of one and I feel so maimed trying to constantly fight to be allowed to believe I’m capable of being right about anything. The only way I can see to attain integrity of self is to just..stop loving or trusting all others.

I don’t want to be a huge jerk. It’s just I can’t see any other option.

Ouch. Sorry friend, but this really reads like a Lion primary in the process of Exploding. But you’re worried about Exploding. So that’s good. 

I get that you’ve been Burned. I get that it hurt, and still hurts. But it’s not healthy or sustainable to think of yourself as an “army of one.” Lion primaries heal by going off on their own and sitting with their own thoughts, it’s one of their most distinctive characteristics, but this isn’t that. 

It’s okay to think that your Cause is more important than your people. But here’s the thing - there are plenty of other people who also feel that way. They’re out there.

You ask me how healthy lions cope with people telling them they’re wrong, or asking them to show their work. My answer to you is - that you don’t owe an explanation to everybody. You don’t have to listen to everybody. Some people are toxic, and some people are not arguing in good faith. But you need to have some people - even just one person - who you respect enough to listen to. And what you’re doing right now, asking me what I think? This is good. I’m a person. 

Sometimes you’re in a place in live where loving people - or trusting people, wow, relatable - is really hard. But so long as you’ve got people who you respect, you should be okay.