Oh hell, I think I figured a lot of "Vecna's Curse" out.
Maybe don't read unless you really want to lose some hours, because if I word this in a way that "clicks" for you, you might feel the strong urge to re-watch multiple seasons. ...Okay, are you sure? Okay, I also haven't flushed everything out (timeline-wise) and need to step away for beat (I promised my partner 24 hours without checking this shit), so if you like this, feel free to run with this idea and take it further. My purpose with this share is to hopefully provide some people PEACE (ideally not destabilizing anyone or perpetuating any psychosis symptoms or other suffering). Here's my best attempt at getting the points across:
Many of our characters have not experienced the episodes (OR THE SEASONS) in the same order as we have.
This has likely been going on for them for a long while.
I think it's like they're playing a video game with check points, and (like Lucas suggested in S4), and they have to “hit the suckers in the right combo."
We can't assume that the scenes we've seen in S1-4 are necessarily in our character's memories in S5. Because those may have been from a later (or the final) run, and our characters may not have experienced those exact scenes yet. Think - van/painting scene. Think - Argyle.
I suspect that, from our perspective as viewers, most of the earlier seasons were the "final run" of the loop (or, close to it).
Some of them are not as aware (perhaps their memories are wiped and/or they're essentially an NPC), and the others may keep them unaware (or wrap them in metaphorical bubble wrap) in order to prevent past outcomes where they may have activated too early (and potentially to devastating effects).
Those who are more aware are the ones who act more cavalier & impulsive, pissy when things aren't going "like they should," and/or depressed & suicidal.
See?
I actually think where they are in many of the S5 scenes we see is what Dustin may eventually describe to us as the "hellscape."
Yeah, likely this hellscape - the one that Henry seemingly flew through in S4. I don't know if that's the weird donut-thing from Brenner's office in S5, but perhaps it's supposed to be.
You see how this could sound like the dialogue between characters who have tried this quest many, many times? They're so tired and satisfied.
The thing is, though, something went wrong. And this was not the end. I think it's in the middle, somewhere (and I'm going to chose to resist the urge to figure out EXACTLY where everything lands and encourage you to sit back and relax about it, too, if you can). Basically, I think that Episode 1 (The Crawl) actually happens after this (and perhaps much, much later). This is a never-ending story, you know? If our characters don't figure out how to break the curse, they can...in a way, live forever. If you just re-watch S5E1 with this in mind, it can recontextualize a lot of things:
Why the waking up scene at the Wheelers' is a big deal. Jonathan and Will both mis-remembered the other going to reset the clock. Jonathan (or perhaps both of them) might actually be tagging back in after a long lapse here.
Why Eleven knew exactly what her times were on the obstacle course and she was so insistent that Hopper needed to "reset it," and that she knew what her time would be. Why she's upset that Hopper isn't acting the way that he normally would, and things aren't going according to plan. She's also super-disturbed when things are going wrong during the crawl, and her guesses about what is happening are off.
Why Eleven and Mike's rooftop conversation hint that they know that this time may be different (they think it could be their last time after many, many tries, after all). They seem to know that the loop they're in functions a lot like a campaign.
Why Mike already knew to make and carry around "Holly the Heroic," but he normally doesn't give it to her this soon ("I was gonna wait a few more years..."
Why the dial starts off as the suspicious gray-blue color.
Why Dustin is so tired of trying to help Steve, and why he immediately knows that it's the Remote Radio Head. He's getting loosey-goosey, putting snakes in bullies' lockers. He knew to bring paint thinner to Eddie's gravestone ("Don't worry, Eddie. Eventually they'll get bored.") And he was surprised when it was blood this time (cue banging noises that suspiciously sound like banging signals and/or the beat from "When Doves Cry").
Why Hopper & Joyce's dialogue implies they both already know about Will's powers. In fact, a lot of people seem to be treating him with "kid gloves."
Why Hopper, at this point, is already planning for a possible suicide mission, because he really has lost hope they can ever beat it.
Why Dr. Kay sarcastically can predict what others are going to say.
I also think it's notable that the show & play writer, Kate Trefry appears to be the "burnout" that the military tranquilized. Sorry I don't remember who pointed this out first, but I think this has huge implications for the #fourthwallgate of it all. I suspect she's the one who's unhooked the Remote Radio Head.
You know what? Reading about her "standing in" as the demo that kills Bob kind of reminds me how Shawn Levy was the special medical examiner (coroner) that was brought in by "staties" in S1 (and apparently later arrested for falsifying the autopsy - thanks @cluelessbees!)
It may be that characters/entities) can sometimes play as other characters in this nightmare cycle (like scenes where Max seems a little Brenner-y, Brenner-Henry similarities, maybe the Steve-Hopper similarities?). I'm not even going to really be able to get into that OR much of anything from Project NINA and/or The First Shadow here. But what I will say about TFS, is that Henry sure does act like a person whose realized they've been trapped in an infinite time loop.
Like, a darker version of Palm Springs (2020), which I definitely recommend checking out!
How does all all work and fit together? I haven't TOTALLY put the pieces together. Ultimately, I think the seasons events will actually be intertwined. I'm trying to protect my heart (I've been hurt too much this past year!), so I'm trying to not get my hopes up that they'll actually land the plane, but I think this is actually a plane! I'm not totally sure how it works, but I'm 95% sure it has to do with them sleeping (and/or comas). If so, moments like this in S5 would make more sense. This whole "safety lock" on Dustin's "wheelie thing" seems to connect with this silly Funkopop commercial promoting S5 (which, honestly, I think gives us more info about the mechanism of Dustin's inventions than we previously could understand).
& you know what? Scenes from earlier seasons where characters are waking up would also make sense. Almost as if they are "flipping" between the different times.
So, like, these characters could be hopping between S4 & S5 here:
For some of the other moments I'm thinking about from the past that are real zingers with this theory:
Someone could've planted D'art in Dustin's trashcan.
The significance of Camp Know Where & Dustin returning from there with his inventions. Dustin could very well have lived many more years before returning. Hell, he could've created Camp Know Where (maybe in collaboration with Bob, Scott Clarke, Suzie, and or Erica).
Why Dustin might have such an attitude around Ted (and perhaps why Ted pretty much just tolerates it).
Maybe this explains why the S3 epilogue is so confusing with the Byers & El leaving the house multiple times.
How Nancy wrote in advance what would happen in Lucas's basketball game.
"Are you real? Did I make you?"
"If you touch her again, I will kill you again."
A lot of the "shared looks" and Byler-y moments might just be moments that Mike and Will are just both aware that the other is "real"/ present / active / not NPC-like. (I'm thinking "I guess it's up to us again." "It always is.")
Why so many things are the way that they are in the S4 Lenora plotline.
Why Mike is reality-testing in the S5 epilogue (e.g., Vallaki was Mike's Litmus test for Will) and he's realizing that he's in an illusion. I think he's coming to terms that he (and maybe Hopper) are back at it again.
Hell, it probably explains "You die, I die" (and the importance of that call-back in S5 - signaling to Dustin that Steve is "real")
I really do think there's a lot of hints in Dustin's wardrobe (perhaps for the other characters to see). And honestly, I think some of the other clues (like patches and accessories) may have been clues for the other characters, perhaps more so than for the audience.
God speed, y'all!