i just wanna harp on about this for a bit: deb using creative partner is a double entendre. and that's important. especially now that we know that the creators were initially going to use my voice in that scene as opposed to what they went with.
“what’s a double entendre?” you ask?
a double entendre is a phrase that holds two meanings at once—each layered over the other, both true, both deliberate. it invites interpretation without demanding it, allowing language to carry depth and suggestion without ever having to say too much. often, one meaning is surface-level and easily understood, while the other lingers beneath, charged with intimacy, implication, or quiet desire.
and here's where that's important in 4.09:
“creative partner” holds that dual weight.
on one hand, it speaks to the act of building something artistic together—ideas shaped in tandem, stories or art or vision brought to life through shared effort. it’s a bond rooted in imagination and mutual drive, in the rhythm of collaboration.
but just beneath that is another kind of partnership—one that speaks to devotion, to presence, to the way two people begin to shape a life with the same care they shape a story. it carries the cadence of something more intimate: a partner in the making, someone whose presence is felt in the architecture of your life behind the curtain, and the intimate spaces no one else is permitted access to.
in hacks, frank was once both deborah’s "creative partner" for their sitcom (and likely some of her other jokes and writing), and her partner in the fullest sense—her life partner.
frank was someone who helped shape the sitcom they built together and he was also the man who knew her offstage, who tried to love her when the lights went down. their bond existed in the shared pulse of ambition and artistry, but it was intimate too. per deb's words, they had a short of shared language—he didn’t just understand her jokes; he understood where they came from.
now, years later, it’s ava who’s in that space.
it's not as if she's trying to deliberately mimic what frank was, but she's doing so unintentionally by meeting deborah where she is now.
their creative process is frictional and raw, filled with the push and pull of two people who see the world differently but choose, again and again, to shape something together anyway. both in artistry and in intimacy/vulnerability. and in that collaboration, something profound has emerged: deborah’s voice has begun to evolve—has begun, even, to become something neither of them could’ve created alone. when she tells ava, “you are my voice,” it is an admission both artistic and deeply personal. it’s the recognition that ava doesn’t just punch up her act—she understands her, reflects her, holds space for her story in a way frank once did. but better.
she is her partner in creation, yes, but beyond it, too. in every important facet.
she seemed to genuinely have a great time with the guy from the bar in 2.06, i think she was definitely attracted to him, and she admitted she had a good time with him to ava later.
she also seems bizarrely upset with regard to the comments on bisexuals in 3.04 (poop party ep) beyond it being an attack on bisexuals/ava, which leads to her leaving the party. she justifies this with how ava got in her head, changed her mind about bisexuals, etc. but what more fitting than for her to have realized "oh, shit, i might actually be bisexual myself?". also the ep is literally titled "join the club" (a ref to LGBTQ community/the "club").
i know people fixate a lot on the commentary re: deb's nature of bad relationships with men and how she seems to just go for them out of comphet (which i still think is something anyone can try and adhere to out of their own struggling with sexuality) as justification for her being a lesbian, but i don't think she's a lesbian.
i'm serious when i say "what show are y'all watching?" (like here) because uhhhh...
1.06: first bonding moments, deb shares her actual raw story to ava, deb cries (hides it, but still), deb fights for ava to get treatment at the hospital, and deb stays overnight by her side (looking a mess) when she could've just gone home.
1.10: deb (who infamously "doesn't do funerals") chooses to go to a funeral and speak on behalf of her weird employee she has a special connection with, and then later admits that while she bombed at her new show with ava's material, she also "loved it" and admits "i haven't felt that way in years", and she asks ava to join her because while she could in theory do it without ava "it'd probably be a lot less fun".
2.03: deb (who would definitely not dumpster dive) puts aside her anger at ava for the letter and does what she'd never do—demands the bus be turned around so they can find ava's dad's ashes (and then dumpster dives with her, for her) (which also gets rid of one of the stops on the Very Important ™ tour).
2.05: deb insists ava try on a dress that costs a ton and when ava relents with "i don't want this", deb insists "it's not for you, it's for the rest of us" (while eyeing her up and down), and when the door shuts deb is so giddy you can see her lightly jumping up and down. she also in total buys ava ~$1500 worth of clothes and shoes while still pretending to be mad at her. this ep ends with deb teaching ava how to float by holding her up.
2.08: deb cites ava as a driving force for her special, then sets ava free to go pursue greener pastures (which she does) but you can just tell that she doesn't want to do it, and specifically later (in 3.01) cites them having a "clean break" as important/for the best.
3.01: after ava confronts deb at the end of the ep, deb seeks her out to share the cake with, and "the story" plays in the background (specifically the lyrics "so many stories of where i've been, and how i got to where i am, but these stories don't mean anything, when you've got no one to tell them to, it's true, i was made for you") and deb learns ava left, and deb finally takes a taste of the icing on the cake (and "the story" continues to play into/to the ending !!!!!!)
3.02: we have a literal montage of deb and ava texting (and semi flirting, imo) (ava secretly texting deb, hiding it from her gf ruby), and deb ultimately wants ava (and no one else) to help her when she learns she'll be guest hosting for late night (mainly because all of the other writers are awful, but also because ava is Her Girl ™). she respects ava’s boundaries but also asks for ava's help, ava comes to her rescue, and you can just tell things are... different ™ with them. and then ultimately she asks ava to help her during her hiatus.
3.04: the infamous "you got in my head" from deb and ava's "i wanted to be here with you, because you're in my head" (but i like the larger aspect of the argument where deb literally says to ava about ava: "before you, i was perfectly content with being a gorgeous vegas comic, doing my thing, making tons of money, and then you came along, and you made me want more for myself")
3.05: the cuteness of them talking relationships, the "please don't leave me", the bee sting scene where she grabs ava's chin to look at it, the hand-holding, the dorky intimacy of it all. this might be the least inconclusive but idc. let me love my goofball babies.
3.06: this one is solely to demonstrate that deb has changed for fucking no one else but ava and that is when marty literally says to ava at the bar "you talk about this stuff a lot? (...) and she keeps you around, she must really like you" and then he emphasizes "i've known her a long time, and over these past couple years she's really changed, and i'm pretty sure that's right about the time you showed up, kid."
3.09: deb asks ava to be the head writer for her late night show in the room where everything began for them, and then ultimately breaks her heart, but it's okay, we have the magic of most of season 4 to make up for it
4.04: the fucking "i would pick one person in the audience, and i would do the show just for them" scene, but instead, it's more than that—the entire room falls away and it's just ava and deb in the room (and the world)
4.06: everything about this fucking ep. deborah's persistent concern after ava quits. how it saturates everything. how she can't let go of it. how she says "i guess i just found my voice" and seems to realize it's ava when she's waiting for her award. how she says "i'm sorry baby, i should have protected you" to barry (dog) and then immediately realizes she needs to be saying this to ava. how she says "can you help me find my... find my..." to the girl who helps her use "find my iPhone" feature enabled. how she locates ava and tracks her down. how she jumps into frigid (near jan/february) fucking waters risking hypothermia to "save" ava. how she puts her pride aside finally to say she actually Can't ™ do it without ava. how she says they need to make the show for each other (a callback to 1.06 and 1.09 where she talks about frank and their relationship), and how she finally admits ava IS her voice (soulmate, same shit). AND how they finally share that lonely bottle of krug together.
4.09: fucking everything about this ep too. protecting ava from bob's wrath. fighting for her insistently. ultimately going rogue on live television and quitting for her. professing her love for ava ("i refuse to fire her, and not just because she's my creative partner", "and now i'm being asked to fire someone i love")
4.10 (ish): their fkn honeymoon montage? hello? we're gonna ignore the rest of the ep though, in fairness
so yeah, i just… sorry, but i won't understand it when people are like "idk i just don't see it being requited". are you insane????
i keep seeing people talk about ruby being boring and an unlikeable character and i just need to get this off my chest: that. is. intentional.
the character of ruby exists as the mirror of what passes for convention—her character embodies the structure of comphet: pleasant, emotionally available in predictable ways, polite, kind, and the kind of safe affection that affirms social norms rather than challenging them. she offers ava the kind of relationship she’s been told she should want: tidy, affirming, free of the chaos and friction that come from desire that actually transforms.
her presence is narratively functional because she shows what “normal” wlw/sapphic love looks like through a heteronormative framework—steady, domestic, unthreatening—and in doing so, she highlights why deborah isn’t just more interesting but more essential. and it also highlight’s deborah’s point in 1.09 about having a shared language with someone and creating with them.
honestly, deborah’s dynamic with ava disrupts the neatness ruby represents; it’s charged, creative, confrontational, unique, generative, and unconventional. ruby’s blandness isn’t a flaw but a feature, people!!! she’s the control variable!!! ruby is meant to represent the quiet baseline against which real recognition and creative intimacy (ie. with deborah) reveal their depth.
I'm rewatching Hacks, and i'm laughing at Ava calling Deb a "hack" and not wanting to write for her and then, like girl, this is the woman you are gonna be obsessed with for the rest of your life. It is so funny.
the way she becomes instantly obsessed lmao.
also like can we talk about the casual way she slips the "i called deborah mommy once, i don't even call my own mom that" in 2.05 like??? and then in THAT SAME EPISODE (but earlier) the way she lets deb buy her around $1500 worth of clothes and shoes? and goes on to wear all of it in 2.08 even though she hates the majority of it? and then the audacity of them to make it so clear she's submissive in 3.06 with that oil heiress bossing her around? i.... they made the most painfully relatable millennial. you just know she loves deb bossing her around and wants deb to put her in her place (but only sexually).
Something that’s been rattling in my noggin during the Hacks hiatus:
In s4e2, Deborah is still so fiercely protective of Ava even when she absolutely loathes her for besting her at her own game.
“You only get one glass of wine, and why aren’t you wearing makeup? You’re not going to a library for fuck’s sake!”
She’s so worried that Ava will approach the meeting with a carefree attitude which will cost her the job, even though Deborah was DELIBERATELY trying to get Ava fired through her pranks. Then when Winnie pointed out that Ava was in the public eye now:
“I know… she’s not used to it.”
Almost like she was trying to get Winnie off her back when she could’ve used Winnie as a gambit to get Ava fired.
Like Deborah’s behavior during the dinner scene makes NO SENSE if you don’t believe she doesn’t fiercely love Ava like how do you justify this if that’s not canon.
you’re correct—it only makes sense through the lens of deborah loving ava back just as fiercely. and when you frame it within deborah’s long-standing hunger to be challenged, the entire dynamic refracts. it redefines her protectiveness, her anger, her attraction. because for deborah, being challenged is rare. it’s uncomfortable, destabilizing, but it’s also the most alive she ever feels.
the creators have been explicit about this:
Interviewer: It recalled the Season 2 finale of “Succession,” when Kendall blows his father up on live TV and his father watches with a smile. It’s like he has a newfound respect for his son — and the same felt true of Deborah.
Downs: We definitely will take “Succession.” But we’ve been trying to bake that in. They are mirror images of each other. They found the other half of the coin in each other. While it is infuriating and really scary — because what will this do to the foundation of the relationship? — Deborah is lit up by it.
Jen Statsky: She didn’t know Ava had it in her until that very moment. It’s a shock, and for lack of a better term, it’s a turn-on for Deborah.
Aniello: I was going to say — it’s arousing!
Statsky: It’s arousing that she has a worthy opponent. I don’t think Deborah ever feels like she has a worthy opponent.
so when ava does what she does, what we see in 4.02 is deborah still high from it—still reeling, still angry, still thrilled. because ava surprised her. and for someone like deborah, surprise is rare.
in s2, ava rarely would’ve pushed back like this. but the separation sharpened ava, pushed her into her own power, and deborah can see that. it's part of why she let ava go in s2. she knew if ava stayed, she’d fold herself around deborah forever. and if deborah let herself want her back, she wouldn’t be able to stop. she'd reach a point where she wouldn't be able to live without ava.
and that dependence on someone only led to earthshattering betrayal (frank sleeping with kathy, marrying her, custody battle over DJ, frank lying about deb burning down his house, deb's awful therapy with the creep, deb losing late night, and ultimately deb having to fight to rebuild her image.) so it's terrifying.
but now ava has edge. clarity. she’s not afraid to go head-to-head. and deborah, for all her fury, loves that. always has. their worst fights are the same moments where deborah sees ava most clearly—where the balance of power finally evens out. she doesn’t want docility. she wants friction. and ava gives her that—intellectually, emotionally, creatively. but she also sees, now, that it's not ava doing it for ava. it's much like the salt and pepper shakers. ava didn't have to do that. and deborah found her perfect match in both ava and those salt shakers.
so of course she defends her at dinner. of course she cuts off winnie before she can press in. she can’t help it. her protection over ava is instinctual. the line—“i know… she’s not used to it”—isn’t just strategic. it’s intimate. affectionate. mentorship, yes, but more.
honestly, i’m a little shocked winnie didn’t outright ask if they were sleeping together—because the energy between them at that dinner is ridiculous. they’re both overcorrecting, pretending nothing’s wrong, leaning into this exaggerated casualness, all forced grins and offhand jokes. the whole thing plays like a sketch they’re barely holding together. it’s the kind of strained levity people perform when they’re trying to pretend they’re not still wrecked over each other. if you’ve ever sat between two exes who think they’re fooling everyone—you know that vibe. so for winnie, who is observant and blunt, to not just come out and ask? serious restraint, imo.
anyway, for deborah, the entire thing with ava is a game of tension and release. she’s indulging in the flirtation of it—the chase, the bickering, the push and pull of two people who know exactly how to get under each other’s skin. the spark isn’t dulled by the betrayal; it’s heightened by it. and that rhythm—snide remark, hostility, soft correction—it's how they’ve always spoken. it’s the cadence of something more than rivalry. it’s the language of closeness neither of them can name without risking everything. it's their language—the one deborah spoke of in 1.09 (after ava's first betrayal):
“when you share a sense of humor with someone, it’s like finding someone who speaks your own private little language, and you make each other better. but his ambition got in the way, and he left me, and i was so scared—because i thought i needed somebody else, and that i would never find anybody like him ever again. and then i found standup, thank god. you know, everyone thinks that stand-up is so scary because you're up there all alone, but it is the least scary thing in the world—'cause no one can disappoint you.
but under all of it, there’s a line deborah won’t cross, now.
she can mock. she can snap. she can be cruel in moments. but she can’t truly hurt ava. not in a way that lasts. because this isn’t just a creative partnership. it isn’t just the thrill of being matched. it’s love. unspoken, still unclaimed—but there, saturating everything.
and deborah won’t let anyone else touch it. not winnie. not the studio. not even ava, when she does something stupid and/or accidentally self-sabotages.
because that’s her girl.
the only one who ever stood across from her and didn’t back down. the only one who matched her not just in talent, but in fire. and for all her anger, that’s what anchors her. that’s what she defends. even when she’s furious. even when she’s brokenhearted. even when she hasn’t figured out how to say it aloud. her actions already have.
I desperately want to know what Ava was going to say in Singapore when she turned around and then Deborah said “have a nice flight” instead
i have a ton of thoughts on this, but overall, realistically, i think that if ava was likely going to say something (which i do think she was), it needs to keep several things in mind tonally (expanded on more thoroughly at the end).
oh, and disclaimer for anyone reading: this contains heavy spoilers for S4, so if you haven’t watched, please go do so first before proceeding (or keep in mind i will be discussing S4).
firstly, deb said “someone i love” about ava on live tv, and they never spoke about it. not only that, but she left late night (mainly for ava, even though it was unintentional), and part of that is also complicated by her disillusionment of this vision of obtaining late night and rewriting her legacy. late night was the pinnacle of her career in her mind, and her childhood dream, and losing it after ava got in her head made it feel less pure, like an illusion she can’t get back. canonically, deb has said that ava has changed how she perceives things and interacts with stardom (“You know, I finally get in good with those guys, and I can't enjoy it because of you. You got in my head. They said some crap about bisexuals, and I couldn't let it go.” and “I mean, before you, I was perfectly content being a gorgeous Vegas comic, doing my thing, making tons of money. And then you come along, and you make me want more for myself. And it's just f*cking annoying!” in 3.04) and so even if ava wasn’t the prompt, i highly doubt deb would feel as good about platforming a sexual predator, and she’d eventually step away.
something that’s also relevant here is that deb also fears how the public would treat them and worries most about ava, so she pushes her away (a habit born from betrayal and heartbreak). and where ava has always been more direct, every time she speaks from the heart, deb retreats, leaving scars. the power dynamic still lingers, and ava now links honesty with loss after what happened in 2.08. but she also can’t walk away—they’ve crossed the line, their lives tangled, ava is now permanently rooted in deb’s work, family, and world. but they can’t seem to name it.
singapore was a holding pattern—eight months of routine, waiting, and silence. but neither seem able to confront the other on their feelings. and yes, ultimately, this a missed opportunity for ava to confront it, but frankly, i think she’s holding back out of fear that deb will shove her away again but for good. canonically, she’s still deeply haunted by how deb gave them a “clean break” at the end of S2. if she were to have said (or wanted to say) anything, it would need to be tonally spot-on for the both of them. something like:
“i stay because you’re someone i love. you just never let me fucking say it.”
“you say i need a life, but all i’ve ever wanted is to have you in it.”
“i know you keep telling yourself i’m going to leave you like frank did, but i think i’ve proven myself more than enough.”
“every time i try to tell you how i feel, you push me away. when are you actually going to listen/see me?”
“you don’t get to say i’m wasting my life when you’re the only one who ever made me feel like i’m special. like i’m worth something.”
“you think i don’t know what this (gesturing between them) is? i told you already, i want to be wherever you are, and you made it a clean break. you always do. when are you going to stop being scared?”
“i stayed because i love you too, but i’m tired of being punished for that, deborah.”
i think we all know that that moment in singapore says everything. ava turned because she was going to say something real, raw, simple—something that had been building for months.
the problem is that deb does what she always does and cuts her off when it cuts too close. she’d already said “someone i love” once, on live tv, but never to ava’s face. and ava’s been holding that ever since, and carrying it in silence because as far as we know, they haven’t had a real and honest conversation about it and what they both mean to each other. and i think it’s partially unaddressed by ava because she knows how deb reacts when she tries to get deep and emotional and honest. it happened before at the end of S2 and in ava’s mind, it’s happening again.
she’s learned a lot from deb, and sadly, that now includes when to be protective of herself and to withdraw into herself.
breakdown/dissection as mentioned above/top:
(1): deb said “i love her” on live television and they never talked about it. this is likely haunting her. she probably wonders what people are thinking, if she should say it directly to ava, if they should even bother talking about it, and if deb is having romantic feelings, she maybe wonders who is supposed to make the first move for a kiss—ava? or her? because ava didn’t when they hugged. (2): late night was deb’s childhood dream, tied up in survival and self-worth. losing it left a hole she doesn’t know how to fill. she, like ava, has tied everything to the pinnacle ideal of obtaining Late Night, and while it was fun, she also unearthed some awful stuff that made it all feel less fun because self-admittedly, “you got in my head” (about ava). everything is tainted, now, by ava’s lens, and deb cannot see things in any other way. she is now forced to confront that this dream was merely an illusion of perfection. (3): deb is deeply insecure, especially about how she’s seen, and especially as an older woman in comedy. she knows how the public would treat them if they were together—either as a joke, or worse. she probably worries most about how it would hurt ava. this comes through her mention of their ages: “You're 29 years old, and I'm your only friend. Isn't that weird? It's weird. You need friends. And a boyfriend, or a girlfriend, or, you know, a they-friend, or whatever the hell it is that you want—” (this is deliberately hurtful but it’s pointing out that they have a massive age gap and deb believes ava needs to be around people her age that are more like her). (4): she pushes people away when she feels vulnerable. it’s habit. it’s history. it’s protection. because deb associates vulnerability and emotional intimacy with others with loss and betrayal and heartache. (5): ava has always been more emotionally honest, and she names what she feels: “we’re good together.” “i want to be wherever you are.” but deb always pulls away when that happens, and each time it takes a blow. (6): the power dynamic still lingers. deb was her boss, and now they’re “equals” (“creative partner”). she likely has a lot of feelings being labelled with something so profound. and even now, ava doesn’t always know what she’s allowed to say—or if she’s even allowed to feel it. (7): ava now links honesty with loss. every time she speaks from the heart, deb ends it. once with a firing. she’s terrified to lose her, now, because she knows how it felt, and how even in therapy she couldn’t move past it. (8): ava can’t walk away from this. they’ve already crossed the line—feelings semi (or mostly) admitted, lives tangled. she’s in deb’s work, in her world, in her family. she’s AJ’s godmother. she’s permanent. ultimately, she knows giving space might be the safer move, but they’re stuck in this quiet, heavy thing where the feelings are obvious and no one can say them out loud. (9): singapore was a holding pattern. eight months of quiet routine. both of them waiting, neither of them speaking.
do you think its likely deb will end up with marty? with all the themes of deb changing and growing i just dont think it would make sense. imo ava is debs future whereas marty is very much a thing of her past. deb/marty endgame is the only thing i dont want to see and i want to believe jpl is smarter than that 😔
anyway i hope youre well! sending you love, im always impressed by your hacks analysis which is why i come to you with this question
i don't wanna put anything into the universe that'll make this a reality lmao so no guarantees, but a lesbian can be hopeful, right? idk. i completely agree with you that with all the themes of deb changing and evolving (specifically because of/for ava) it wouldn't make sense, especially given marty himself recognized that in S3 (3.04), but i also have been entirely wrong before and have seen ships go down in flames. do i trust the hacks team? sure. but they're also cognizant that their viewers are an eclectic mix of lgbtq folks and cishets, and therefore they have to cater to both groups (ikr? ugh). anyway, this leaves us in a predicament that i can't think too long about or i start to feel sick with anxiety lmao (sad).
tysm for this sweet lil message, and thank you for seeking the analyses. i can't really give an in-depth one, maybe i will at a later date, but i have posted at length about this in the past so feel free to peruse that. i think the tag i used for that was like... hacks canon analyses or something to that effect.
