I think people who wholeheartedly believe Fabian should have been the Osirian because he was dating Nina are missing a few very important pieces of context.
The first is that of the two pairs of Chosen Ones and Osirians we have (Sarah/Rufus, Nina/Eddie), there’s absolutely zero romance at all between them. Sarah and Rufus were adopted siblings for the majority of their lives, and the only romance Nina and Eddie ever had was a delusion cooked up by Fabian and Patricia. There’s no precedent set that the Chosirian duo is supposed to be any sort of romantic couple, so Fabian being in love with her really has no bearing on him being or not being her Osirian.
It’s also just objectively more romantic that he loves her and continuously strives to help and protect her from harm because he wants to, not because he was divinely tasked with it by Anubis. He orbits Nina by choice, hence the whole “my chosen one” thing he says.
What do you think are the major key differences between pre-HOO Praetor Jason Grace, HOO Jason Grace and post-HOO Jason Grace? Thematically, character-wise, personality-wise, and/or headcanon-wise? And.... What do you think about Octavian, Reyna and Jason being a trio before the whole amnesia mess? (I headcanon Octavian and Jason to have been very good friends, like brothers, who slowly drifted apart due to ideological differences which later evolved to resentment. Also that, as a trio, Octavian and Reyna always butted heads, and Jason acted a mediator). I think them being a trio would be beautifully tragic. What about Jason's powers? What do you think- did being a champion of Juno grant him special abilities or heavily influence his character and personality? What do you think of his political position in Camp Jupiter? How do you think the campers reacted differently to their two praetors- Jason and Reyna? Their reactions, receiving, etc.? (Sorry for bothering you! Most of my questions wer heavily fanon-tainted, but I really am pissed at canon when it comes to the vagueness of the Camp Jupiter characters. Fanon's fun. But I would so LOVE to see your insights and opinions! Please do share!)
First of all, anon, I would like to deeply apologize for how long I took to answer this. I usually look at questions like this and think; “Okay, I want to really take my time answering that,” and just forget about it, lmao, but I will try to answer it all for you now.
TOA spoilers and answers below;
I just got done writing a character analysis paper on Jason through the lens of multiple psychological theories, so this is going to be a little influenced by that.
What do you think are the major key differences between pre-HOO Praetor Jason Grace, HOO Jason Grace and post-HOO Jason Grace? Thematically, character-wise, personality-wise, and/or headcanon-wise?
I think one of the major differences between pre-HOO Jason, HOO Jason, and post-HOO Jason, is definitely his sense of self. I didn’t get to talk about this specific theory in my paper, but James Marcia has an interesting theory on identity development which includes a few stages, those being Identity Diffusion (People who have never explored options, or made a commitment to an identity), Identity Foreclosure (those who made a commitment to an identity without ever exploring other options), Identity Moratorium (those who are exploring identity without commitment just yet), and finally Identity Achievement (Those who, after exploration, have made a commitment).
I think there is a very likely possibility that if Jason had never lost his memory and gone to Camp Half-Blood, he would be damned to Identity Foreclosure, imo. He was just surrounded by too many influences who were pressuring him to be a certain way (take leadership roles, become a great hero, etc.) from such a critical development period (toddlerhood), I seriously think him losing his memory and being taken to Camp changed his whole life trajectory.
We see him exploring his identity in House of Hades, when he states this; “...in his heart he wanted to be at Camp Half-Blood. The months he’d spent there with Piper and Leo had felt more satisfying, more right than all his years at Camp Jupiter.” (Riordan 2013, p. 264), showing signs of him being in Identity Moratorium, and then later in BOO, he seems to have experienced some semblance of Identity achievement when he decides to become Pontifex (Riordan 2014, p. 283), and when he states that he is both “a child of Greece and Rome” (Riordan 2014, p. 42-43).
However, I have always thought that it is subtextually to be inferred that Jason has experienced a sort of identity regression when we see him in TOA. It’s stated that Jason’s hair, which was described to have grown out and become wild during HOO, symbolizing his changing identity(Riordan, p.195), is cropped short again (Riordan 2018, p.133). He also seems to have lost his sense of purpose after despairing due to the prophecy he gets, bequeathing it to Apollo instead (Riordan 2018,p.142).
What do you think about Octavian, Reyna and Jason being a trio before the whole amnesia mess? (I headcanon Octavian and Jason to have been very good friends, like brothers, who slowly drifted apart due to ideological differences which later evolved to resentment. Also that, as a trio, Octavian and Reyna always butted heads, and Jason acted as mediator). I think them being a trio would be beautifully tragic.
I really like this idea. I, like you, think it’s really unfortunate that Rick didn’t build upon Camp Jupiter or its characters more. Really some of the only things we get from Jason about Octavian canonically is that he joins Percy in dunking on him as soon as he gets back to Camp Jupiter (Riordan 2012, p. 18), and he knows Octavian is dangerous/powerful (Riordan 2012, p. 70). It’s a missed opportunity imo, and it also doesn’t make sense that Jason doesn’t seem to know him at all, because it's stated that Octavian’s family is known to be wealthy and powerful in New Rome (Riordan 2014, p.73), and Octavian clearly knows who Jason is (Riordan 2011,p.23).
As for Jason being their mediator, I would believe it, as it was his nature (Riordan 2014, p.25-26).
What about Jason's powers? What do you think- did being a champion of Juno grant him special abilities or heavily influence his character and personality?
I think Jason’s powers were undermined in favor of Percy’s, but that was a writing choice. I also think being a champion of Juno would probably just add to the pressure Jason was already dealing with from other power structures in his life. I am curious though if Jason seeming to have a more positive or reverent view of the gods was influenced by his status as Champion of Juno. I do think it is interesting that, at least after he regains his memory, compared to other characters, Jason typically only really expresses mild frustration or agitation at the gods, rather than anger or wrath like Percy or other characters (Hazel, Frank, his own sister,Thalia,etc.).
What do you think of his political position in Camp Jupiter? How do you think the campers reacted differently to their two praetors- Jason and Reyna?
I think we can infer that out of the two, Jason would be the one you would want to talk to more, lol. Hazel says about him; ““You… the great Jason Grace… the praetor I looked up to. You were supposed to be so fair, such a good leader” (Riordan 2012 p. 86)-and yes, I am aware she is reading him to filth here, lmao- but I think the implication is that he had a good reputation. He was thought of as amiable and just, and probably pretty reluctant to actually do any disciplining because he didn’t really want the job in the first place lol (Riordan 2014, p.39).
Hey, @mask-of-anubis hope you don't mind that i made a separate post with your tags as the main focus point. ( the tags are taken from this post if anyone is curious) But I felt the the topic is too important to just be kept in the tags.
Thoughts under the cut.
I want to preface this post by saying that you're completely right, that the hoa girls are held at a much higher standard compared to the boys. Sadly this is a common reccurence in most media.
Female characters are scrutinized for everything they do, no matter if you are a "traditonal gal", a "female warrior" or something in between.
As you pointed out, these girls are complex and they make mistakes ( and thank god that they do, because if they didn't and were instead some mary sues hoa would be boring as hell). We have to thank the writers for that because they wanted to create human characters.
Simply put: people scream about wanting "complex female characters!" and when they get them on screen they whine about how "toxic" "pathetic" "whiny" "bitchy" they are.
Let's take for example the worst form of this behavior: The S2 Joy-Nina rivalry. (yes, i'm really going there).
I'm one of the few people in the entire hoa fandom, that thinks that their rivalry ( while i can agree that it overstayed its welcome sometimes) was actually a good arc, and in some ways was inevitable.
People thinks that feminism means "the girls must always get along!" Ignoring that forcing two girls who have very different views, becoming friends just for the sake of Feminism™ is actually going to diminsh the quality of the story, and the characters themselves too.
In fact, since its quite implied in the pilot that joy has a major crush of Fabian, and i'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but no girl is going to be happy that her crush isn't single anymore, especially when (at least from joy's pov) she and fabian were quite close. Of course, the way joy went about it in s2 was wrong, but the girl is traumatized ( as all the characters in the show are to various degrees lol) and instead of blaming the teachers, she focused her anger on the easy target.
But keep in mind that Nina isn't a saint either: she's passive aggressive to an unhealthy degree, she lashes out at her friends, and is very possessive about a boy who isn't her boyfriend anymore.
But people, instead of trying to understand why they act that way, They prefer the easy way out aka calling them something along the lines of "Bitch" "Horrible" "Toxic" "Pathetic" "Whiny" "Bully" and everything else under the sun.
Really it's quite concerning that i've seen this behavior in multiple fandoms, and it has no intention of stopping. And no matter how you spin it, female characters can never win, because people will find a way to hate them regardless.
Because as you said, when did male characters ever been held responsible for their own actions? Right, never.
Because fans, somehow to make their fave male character "he's just a soft boy™ who can do no wrong ever" , they have to ignore every single flaw they have. Even if those flaws make them interesting.
Instead female characters are always blamed, villified for the same things the male characters do.
And really everything comes down to the double standard , doesn't it?
don't get me wrong i'm actually a huge fan of the way the show handles amber leaving and think it was a satisfying send-off for her character when it was all said and done, but bro, if any character had to be there for the sinner plotline, it's amber fucking millington
amber millington who forced nina and fabian to trust her and let her in, no matter how much they brushed her off and underestimated her? amber millington who can't help herself but constantly cause problems, but is always getting called a genius for solving other ones because people underestimate her? amber, who spent the entire pilot going bonkers jealous? idk all i'm saying is a climactic scene (or entire plotline) of sinner!amber tricking fabian or alfie (or god forbid both) is a HUGE missed opportunity that would suit the tragic themes so well that i'm nauseous
something we as a fandom overlook bc, yk, jerome cheated, is how well willow and jerome actually got along. you wouldn’t necessarily expect them to. i really enjoyed their dynamic because, up until that point in the series, we’d only ever seen jerome seriously interested in mara—and mara and willow are two very different people.
mara is more factually intelligent, extremely focused in school and a self-identified “mathlete.” willow is more emotionally intelligent, observant to auras and vibes and always trying to make people happy.
jerome liked both of these women, though. i firmly believe if mara hadn’t decided to take him back at the very moment she did, then he would’ve gotten together with willow regardless—and likely stayed together. if they would’ve lasted/would alfie still have an interest in her, i don’t know. but it is something i wonder about.
it really would be so interesting to see a world in which nina never went looking for the cup of ankh and/or patricia never went looking for joy. the adults wouldn’t have been able to build the cup, because they literally had one piece of it and the wrong chosen one. rufus would have still been poking around, and he might have still approached patricia and jerome, but if they believed the teachers, they wouldn’t be so keen to help this creepy guy. so ostensibly, the adults would have just let joy come back to school after the fact like “damn, part of our lives’ work went down the drain.” joy wouldn’t have said anything about what she’d experienced, most likely, because who tf would believe her?
nina also wouldn’t know anything about the fact she was the chosen one, but maybe little stuff would start happening around her once sarah died. and with no cup of ankh, there’s no senkhara to release, and so nobody is finding the way into the tunnels for the mask or otherwise. eddie would show up and it would all be very normal. maybe eric would tell his son he was the osirian in this scenario at some point, but it’s unlikely
the only thing that would still happen is victor and sweet trying to reawaken robert, with “harriet” denby. kt would pull up talking crazy about a key and a great evil, and everyone would probably be like “hmm okay good luck with that?”
maybe nina or eddie would have an inexplicable tug to help her, but maybe not since neither of them has had any chance to develop their powers (and rufus would also still be alive and the active osirian). the descendants wouldn’t be resisting the ceremony bc why would they? robert would probs wake up evil, and legit everyone would be cooked as hell.
to this day I’m still laughing at the fact a whole cult of grown adults genuinely thought the one tiny ankh piece they had was the full cup of ankh that they could drink out of. like they thought they had what they needed??did they think joy as the chosen one was gonna engineer some sort of way to drink out of this??
