Drawing parallels between Joker folie a deux (2024) and Batman:the enemy within (2017) , why one worked and the other didn’t
I watched Folie a deux again for the first time in two years and noticed quite a few parallels between the portrayal of Joker (aswell as Harley) with the Telltale series. The first time i’d seen it my only understanding of the characters was from movies, so while i already wasn’t fond of the sequel i didn’t really make connections with other media. But now, seeing as the enemy within had a version of the Joker i really enjoyed, and folie a deux was generally a flop, i want to explore why the game worked so well, and the movie didn’t.
To begin i want to establish the similarities, before picking apart the differences and trying to see which ones caused the response from fans to be so different. Also for the sake of keeping this short(er) and clearer, I’m only going to take the villain ending of the enemy within into account
The first parallel i noticed was in how Harley fit into the dynamic. In both the movie and the game we see the usual dynamic between Harley and the Joker switched, with Harley being the one taking advantage of the Joker, being cunning, manipulative and already an established criminal before ever meeting the Joker.
That leads me to the second parallel, with the Joker being shown as a more naive, autistic coded character with allusions to potential DID or BPD tendencies, with a clear switch in behaviour between the persona of the Joker and John/Arthur respectively. (Depending on how you read it, that switch either being literal, with one alter coming to the front, or being more exaggerated and played up as a performance by the Joker when he’s met with his more violent tendencies.)
Another parallel is ofcourse that both are sequels, though John is definitely less built up in the first game than Arthur is in the first movie.
Both Jokers are derailed from a potential path of healing by the sudden falling in love with their respective Harleys.
I think the strongest connection between the two though, stem from the goal of their respective medias with their characters as a whole. To create a more sympathetic Joker. To get the audience to feel bad for him, despite knowing what he’ll become. And while i think it would be a lot more interesting to explore a more sympathetic Joker without reversing the roles in his dynamic with Harley, i do believe that this goal is the main reason for the change in both cases.
As for the differences there is obviously alot. For one, when it comes to the telltale games, the sequel definitely is the glory piece in the eyes of the Joker fans, while with the movies the sequel is considered not just a flop but a wasted opportunity, with the first movie building us up for a grand sequel and then completely failing to deliver.
With John we start to really get to know him only in the sequel, with the first game setting up a tiny bit of intrigue and the second game delivering on the buildup. By the time we meet him properly he is already in love with Harley. Harley is the thing driving him towards a criminal life.
In comparison to Arthur who is already established, already a criminal with multiple murders behind him. Harley, while still being a bad influence, is certainly not his sole reason for becoming the Joker. With him, Harley is more of a cause for relapse.
I also find it important to mention the entire characterisation of Harley in each media. In the enemy within she’s immediately shown to be brutal and manipulative. Her character is clear from the beginning. And while it’s far from anything close to canon, it’s still given proper respect. She’s written out, and her mindset is clear. In folie a deux however she’s initially introduced as a fellow sympathetic character, then unveiled to be an aggressor, before being once again put in a category of someone delusional.
One other big difference i cannot leave unmentioned is the Jokers trauma. Arthurs trauma is well established, childhood violent and sexual abuse, neglect, and being manipulated by his delusional mother make him easier to read for the viewer. We know why he is the way he is, so it’s easier to predict where his behaviour will lead. John on the other hand is left intentionally vague, with the only history of his we get being that he’s been in Arkham for a very long time. Even he doesn’t know what led him to end up there.
Undeniably age is a part of how we perceived the Joker in these medias aswell. Even with their behaviours being similar, a naive young man is always going to be more palatable than a naive middle aged man. Though John’s age is also left vague, by his appearance the player can only assume he is a young adult. And though it’s entirely possible that his looks may be deceiving and he could be much older, we still end up seeing the naivete as less out of place in him, than in Arthur.
And the final big difference that i want to point out is how each sequel connects to it’s origin. The telltale games are a direct continuation of the storyline with a small timeskip inbetween them, while Joker and it’s sequel have a more complicated timeline. In folie a deux it’s said that everything in the first movie has been made into an in universe movie too, leaving the audience questioning weather the original movie is meant to be the story that actually happened, or just a movie in the sequel’s universe.
I think what ultimately made telltales switch of the dynamic and telltales Harley a success was the willingness to commit to the role reversal. The first telltale game already introduced us to a Gotham where the characters were extremely far off from canon. The penguin being someone who turned against wealth after losing his family fortune, instead of trying to regain the money and class that came with it built us up to expect large changes in the stories and identities of the rogues. But in the 2019 Joker we weren’t immediately thrown so off course. Sure, the Joker was given a new name, but considering that the Joker’s backstories are all considered non-canon and the canoness of the name Jack Napier is also questionable Arthur Fleck wasn’t immediately too far from the Joker we knew. Especially at the end of the movie, when leaning fully into the persona of the Joker, it felt like we might still be on a course parallel to canon, so Harley, both as a character and in the dynamic, being so extremely different was unexpected. What’s more is that the enemy within managed to give us a well built identity for Harley. Folie a deux on the other hand muddied the waters alot. The reveal that her initial backstory she told to Arthur was a complete lie was honestly an interesting plot twist. It changed how we view her from just another mental patient to someone cunning, manipulative and destructive. If that would’ve been where her character would’ve been left off it would’ve likely worked alot better. It would’ve been almost as bold of a character reversal as telltale. But when near the end she reveals herself to have been smitten by the fantasy and not by Arthur it overcomplicates things. Putting her back in the position of someone unwell, who became parasocial about the Joker she saw in the movie and not really in love with the real deal. I also think that this change could have worked, if it wasn’t at her last appearance. If there was more scenes with her the audience would have time to process the difference and notice how Arthur finding out about it would’ve changed their dynamic, but instead it was sort of a slap in the face with no real payoff. In general her character came off more confusing, overly complicated and vaguer than the telltale Harley. It’s almost like the writers didn’t really dare to lean fully into the dynamic switch, so they made her fall for a version of the Joker anyway, while telltale Harley retained the indifferent position that the Joker typically takes in their relationship. The dynamic in the movie just comes off half assed.
As for the Jokers, with John he comes off more sincere when bringing up the mental switch between John and Joker than Arthur does, because despite the fact that the switch presents pretty much the same in them, John mentions feeling a part of himself pacing and waiting to pounce when he’s not under pressure to say it. Arthur on the other hand only admits to the potential of himself and the Joker being separate when his lawyer advises him to. So even with the symptom being the same, the character comes off less sincere In Arthur. In that way the audience begins to lose the sympathy built up for Arthur from the first movie, as he suddenly seems almost dishonest.
It would be careless not to bring up ofcourse that sequels are infamously easy to screw up. Telltale always set up the expectation that John would return, meaning a sequel would happen. While the 2019 Joker left the audience fairly content. All loose ends were tied up, and the little bit of ambiguity left in the air of wether or not we should expect a sequel, left me at the very least under the impression that the sequel would happen much later in the timeline. And that it might focus on the first clash between the Joker and Batman, considering the last things we saw being the Joker embracing the chaos he wreaked and Bruce Wayne’s parents being killed. So when the sequel picked up almost exactly where it left off, but with Arthur Fleck having come down from his elevated mental state, it was almost immediately disappointing. In the first movie we were shown how the Joker came to be, with his chaos being so elevated that the expectation was that this was a permanent change in character, and then we were thrown back to a calmer, more reasonable, more naive Arthur. Telltale’s sequel worked well because the first game didn’t set the bar for the Joker very high, so it was fairly quick and easy to deliver above expectation. 2019 Joker however set the bar in the clouds, and then dug a deep pit for the sequel to start in. Leaving once again the impression of half-assed-ness in the writing of the sequel. Like committing to the change to Arthurs character from the end of the first movie was too scary, so they just took it back.
With John we are met with a man who is healing, but who is at a more stable stage of healing. He’s been in the same state for a very long time, and relied heavily on a steady environment for that stability. So Harley getting into his head and destabilising him makes more sense. He’s been released from Arkham for the first time that he remembers. And having relied so heavily on being used to the environment he is already in a less stable state, more vulnerable for Harley to burst in and take advantage. It feels logical to every part of his character we have learned about. But for Arthur, he isn’t thrown into a sudden destabilising situation when Harley is introduced. If anything, he is more stable than ever before. The instability we see in the first movie is something that built up over his whole life, and we meet him again when he’s back on medication (that for once seems to be working), in an unchanging environment (Arkham), where he doesn’t have the turbulent relationships or the obligation to work like he did on the outside. So Harley managing so quickly to destabilise him seems very out of the blue, leading Arthur to seem more pathetic than sympathetic.
In both medias we see a break up between Harley and the Joker. In John’s case we see him become self destructive in his depression, which very much fits into his behaviour patterns. In Arthur’s case though, we shockingly don’t. Despite the fact that Arthur has previously well established patterns of self destruction during times of distress, we don’t see him doing it after Harley has left him, which in a way feels like a betrayal of the first movie. It’s inconsistent with the character built up so far and drives the wedge between the first movie and the second deeper.
There is one factor that in a way doomed folie a deux from the beginning. It’s a matter of foreshadowing versus building up a character. The first movie already built up the Joker as a character, and foreshadowed a Batman. But the second movie failed to take advantage of the foreshadowing of Batman, and instead veered off course into something completely disconnected. This could’ve been prevented if A. the second movie was made about Batman and the Joker. Or B. If the first movie had foreshadowed Harley Quinn instead. In the telltale games John was only foreshadowed in the first game, so building him up in the second felt right. But in the Joker movies, Arthur was already built up in the first movie, and then he was sort of cycled and built up again in the second, while also introducing a character that was never foreshadowed, and then NOT introducing the character who was. That being Batman. Which brings me to…
As you may have noticed, throughout this rant i have rarely mentioned Batman, and completely avoided bringing up the relationship between Bruce and John in the telltale games. And that is by design, as i wanted to save the best for last. I think ultimately the biggest reason why John’s story worked better than Folie a deux did, was because of Batman. It’s well established across versions, that the Joker isn’t fully the Joker without Batman, and Batman isn’t fully Batman without the Joker. With most stories either having the Joker create Batman, or Batman create the Joker. And in Folie a deux, that specifically gets neglected. In the first movie we have interactions between Arthur and young Bruce, and so the timeline created means that Batman cannot yet exist in the sequel considering how close together the two movies are in time. This is the downfall of the movie. Because without even a bit of Batman, the Joker isn’t nearly as interesting. Especially next to John, whose villain origin story is directly based on the choices the player makes as Bruce. That is, not to mention that the Joker meeting Harley before Batman even exists is absolutely wild.
Uhm also yk folie a deux was a musical and also had french words in its title which already makes any movie immidiately more disliked..
Anyhow, uhh i love the Joker, i love John, i love the first movie Arthur and uhh i pray that i’m not delulu in drawing these parallels ok