#original interview

[fuckyeahgemmathompson]

Unearthing the GT Sound Genesis: Partly Faithful

A Conversation with Partly Faithful's Ed Tuke

── .✦ Commemorating FYGT's 10th Anniversary

Photos by Neil Anderson // Partly Faithful performing live on various dates in 2011-2012

There's always another side to the stories written into history. Not everyone gets the "privilege" of being included in the final record, no matter how vital their role was to the version that survived. It's easy to cherry-pick what you'd like to share or keep to yourself when you are the main subject. You leave the "writers" to accept the story as it is told, and even when they dig deeper, it always comes back to the selective memory of the subject. They decide if they want to be open or if they've said "enough," leaving the rest of us either satisfied or simply haunted by a curiosity that lingers forever.

However, the main subject is never the sole source of the truth. The people around them - those often sidelined or ignored - are the alternative sources of revelation, offering a far more unique perspective on the horizon.

This is exactly what we're attempting to uncover here: the overlooked sides of the woman this blog is dedicated to. These are the layers (we can guarantee) you'd never find anywhere else unless you're actually in her orbit, whether at the center or just on the periphery. A phase that was deliberately overlapping with her "uncompromising" Savages era: the "no-nonsense" 80s goth Partly Faithful phase. This was her private "sound experiment lab" within the London goth scene. It was here she began perfecting the atmospheric guitar playing that would eventually see her skyrocketing to the highest clouds she once could only dream of, but now sit firmly within her grasp.

***

From PF's Facebook page // PF members l-r: Gemma Thompson, Chris Blake, Ed Tuke, Belle Star

Introduction

PARTLY FAITHFUL

Years active: 2011–2016

Gemma's tenure: 2011–2012

Lineup:

Ed Tuke aka Ed Banshee (Vocals)

Gemma Thompson (Guitar)

Chris Brown aka Chris Blake (Bass)

Belle Star (Drums)

Later members: Anouska Haze (Guitar), Matt Burrows (Live drums)

Discography:

Partly Faithful EP (2012)

Beehive EP (2012)

Lazarus Under Glass LP (2013) - Post-tenure release containing original Gemma-era compositions: "Big Bang Medicine", "Skin" and "Scribbles"

Links:

partlyfaithful.com

partlyfaithful.bandcamp.com

facebook.com/partlyfaithful

***

Partly Faithful was a London-based post-punk and gothic rock outfit formed in early 2011. Born from a shared love for the 80s sounds of The Sisters of Mercy and Bauhaus, the band was known for its dark and atmospheric layers. They shared stages with the scene's local prominent acts, including The March Violets. Though the band is no longer active, it remains a pivotal "missing link" in the history of Gemma's musical pursuits and high-visionary brainchild, Savages. It served as the creative bridge where she developed her trademark delay-heavy "art-piece" guitar style.

In late 2025, we reached out to the band's former frontman, Ed Tuke, who graciously provided these invaluable insights into the catalyst of the band, his creative dynamic with Gemma, and the songs that served as the "glue" from that era.

From PF's archive via Ed Tuke // Flyer for the band's debut EP launch, featuring their Art-Deco logo by Gemma

Regarding your first meetings (circa PF days), what was your initial impression of Gemma, and what was the defining trait or shared artistic idea that first clicked between you?

ET: Our first meeting actually goes back a bit further than the PF days. I first saw Gemma and Ayse [Hassan] (and probably Matt [Burrows] on drums - he would later play drums for the final 2 years of Partly Faithful after Gemma left) performing with Hindley at a post-punk night in London. I was scouting for events and bands for my York band, The Screaming Banshee Aircrew, to gig with and thought there was something really interesting in Hindley's sound. Eventually we did indeed share the stage with Hindley for "A Funeral Party III" at the Purple Turtle in March 2010. If I recall correctly, Hindley opened with SBA as main support and Luxury Stranger headlining. For some reason Hindley's vocalist Lee Coxon (who later went on to play guitar with Chris Brown - aka Chris Blake from PF - in The Sly Persuaders) wasn't able to make the show and I was doubly impressed that Gemma, Ayse and Matt performed their entire set regardless. Even back in those days she had that beginnings of what became her trademark sound using super-long delays to create atmospheric guitar layers - playing the instrument more like a sound effect, an art piece, than a traditional guitar. Being a huge early Bauhaus fan I really loved that sound, it reminded me quite a lot of very early Daniel Ash and I'd made a mental note to try and work with her in the future. I was also impressed by Ayse's bass style and actually tried to recruit her when I was trying to start a new band after SBA broke up a few months later. Unfortunately, while Ayse (aka Nixie) was initially quite positive about the idea, she decided she was too busy with the band she'd just joined (Neurotic Mass Movement) to commit.

It was later the next year that I bumped into Gemma again at the finale to the Artrocker tour with The Chapman Family and O' Children at XOYO in London on March 23rd, 2011. I arrived too late to catch the opening act, John & Jehn but after the show was over Gemma approached and said hello. She'd actually performed that night with John & Jehn and during our discussion I must have mentioned that I was thinking of starting a new Post-Punk/Goth band in London, we talked a while and said our goodbyes. Eight days later I got an email from Gemma asking about my new project, she'd been really impressed by the O'Children set, in her own words "they pushed all the right buttons you know with the whole Sisters Of Mercy sound going on" and she and her flatmate Chris Brown (then of Dr Vampire, previously Somewhere Outside New York) had been discussing starting something up with an "80s goth no-nonsense sound" and thought we should all team up. We arranged to meet at Hoxton Square Bar and Kitchen in Shoreditch on Sunday 3rd April and.. that was the genesis of Partly Faithful.

We scrabbled together around 5 new songs for a set (which would become our first EP, ["Partly Faithful EP"]), Gemma came up with an art-deco logo and then we performed our debut show supporting The March Violets in Leeds two months later. The rest is history :-)

From PF's Facebook page // Press review of the band's debut show supporting The March Violets

How did you observe Gemma's artistic evolution from the gothic rock of Partly Faithful into Savages, and through to the later endeavors of hers that you’ve followed?

ET: There's not really that much of a leap between PF and Savages musically, certainly Gemma's initial guitar sounds with Savages were very similar to what she was doing with us (especially in our live shows) although I notice that changed with their second album. I suppose PF was heading in a less artistic direction and I'd veered onto a Nick Cave/Bad Seeds influenced vibe at the time which probably didn't really suit Gemma, plus we were gigging very heavily but not gaining traction. The much more feminist-orientated Savages suited her better. The biggest difference was that Savages seized the zeitgeist of the time and ran with it to the top, John & Jehn were a formidable marketing machine and were already pretty established and well connected, so when Jehn joined Savages they took off like a rocket and left all the rest of the post-punk London bands in their wake. Savages had been percolating for quite a while before then, I recall Gemma and Ayse were looking for a drummer as early as January 2011, months before PF started and I remember us all being amused at their choice of band name when Gemma told us at a rehearsal in late 2011 (we commented that "Savages" was a lot to live up to... and hadn't there already been a band with that name in the 70s).

There was some overlap between the bands, I recall Savages played their first show in January 2012 and Gemma stuck with PF until a rather disastrous [the] Horrors aftershow gig in May 2012 (PF and Savages also used the same rehearsal studio in New Cross - I remember driving Jehn back from there once because I'd taken the car to pick up Gemma's bass amp for a PF show). At the time Gemma leaving the band was a huge blow to us and we felt a bit left behind, a little written out of history as the Savages back story didn't really include us. However, that was a long time ago and I can't really fault Gemma for embracing the rising star that was Savages, I think Gemma has done really well for herself and I'm pleased she was finally able to achieve the artistic success and financial stability she always wanted. Plus, that first Savages album was a fantastic piece of sparse post-punk.

I must admit I lost track of what was happening with Gemma after the release of the 2nd Savages album. I recall the last time I saw her in person was at a birthday party in South London and things were a bit awkward between us. In the end, PF had a turbulent but equally creative few years with another amazing female guitarist, Anouska Haze, (who had her own signature style) after Gemma left. We went on to record our final album, "Lazarus Under Glass" , which contained a fair few tracks that had originated when Gemma was in the band. That band was blessed with talent.

Can you name one significant artistic lesson or approach you adopted from Gemma, and conversely, what do you feel she may have picked up from your approach?

ET: Well I guess there's something relating to the difference between being an entertainer and an artist there, Gemma always had such an intense stage presence whereas I have always had crowd-pleaser tendencies, but I doubt that's actually a lesson I'll ever really learn. I don't suppose there's much that Gemma would have learnt from me... perhaps a few cautionary lessons here and there ;-)

If you had to describe your bond (in any sense - creative or personal, etc.) with Gemma in just three words, which would you choose?

ET: We were at one time wholly aligned on a creative mission and it was great while it lasted. Sadly, I haven't heard from Gemma for years.

Can you name 3-5 songs (yours or others') that evoke meaningful shared memories or specific moments from your years working with Gemma?

ET: One of Partly Faithful's first tracks, "Aeroplanes", will always remind me of how fun Gemma and Chris could be. We filmed the video for it in my flat with a smoke machine and torches... and rather a lot of alcohol may have been consumed.

"The Worm Within", as the first and only time I managed to persuade Gemma to perform a backing vocal (a spoken part in the middle of the song)

For my third song, I'll nominate "Ruins" by O'Children. Perhaps their darkest song and an instant and unexpected (for them) hit in the goth scene at the time... that track was the glue that brought Gemma and myself together in the first place to try and fuse our experiences and musical tastes into PF. *

A profound thank you to Ed Tuke for his generosity and for taking this trip down memory lane with us. His insights have provided the missing coordinates to a pivotal era of Gemma's journey that might have otherwise remained in the shadows. We wish him nothing but the best in his current and future creative chapters. You can explore Ed's current work and archives at: forgottenbetween.com.

Original interview by Chyntia R. of FYGT Posted: Jakarta, 29 January 2026 ₊˚ ── Happy birthday to the other side of the mirror! 🐚🎂

[alliethelombax]

A man broke into someone's house and tried to rape the victim. Darla Gratch from Channel 64 News managed to have an interview with the victim's friend.

Ratchet: Well, obviously, we have a rapist in Aleero City. He's climbing in yo windows, he snatchin' yo people up, tryna rape them. So y'all need to hide yo kids, hide yo wife, and hide yo husband cause they rapin errbody out ere.

Ratchet: We got yo t-shirt, YOU done with little fingerprints and all. You are so dumb! You are really dumb, fo real.

Ratchet: YOU don't need to come and confess. We're lookin for you. We're gonna find you. I'm letting you know that, SO YOU can run and tell dat! Homeboy.

[aplusapp]

We sat down with producer David Johnson to talk about 'American Psycho: The Musical' and why it matters now more than ever.

"The importance of the novel — and therefore, I think, of the musical — is that, even though it's set (in the '80s), the things that were kind of percolating then and that Bret (Easton Ellis) was talking about are more true now than they were then," said Johnson. "Things that are sort of über-materialistic, sort of funny things, like food being so complicated and so important … but then (also) the other things like the split between the privileged and the non-privileged."

Read more of our fascinating interview at A Plus

[makersltd]

A Conversation With The Competitive Gary Vaynerchuk

Gary Vaynerchuk, for those of you who don’t know, is the owner of 

WineLibrary, the creator of WineLibraryTV (which he stopped in 2011 after 1000 episodes), the best-selling author of two books (soon to be three, which he revealed to me in the interview!), and an active angel investor. We spoke by phone yesterday for about fifteen minutes and I’m excited to share some of the things we talked about.

This is one of Gary’s most famous talks - he gave it at the Inc. 500 Seminar in 2011. It’s about an hour long and filled with good stuff, but in the first six or so minutes, he discusses his background and gives you an idea of what he’s all about. I encourage you to watch it.

In this interview with Gary, we discuss VaynerMedia, how he handles his ideas, a new book he has coming out, his desire to lose everything, buying the Jets, and of course, his hate for the Patriots.

Makers Limited: Vaynermedia has had serious growth. You have offices on the West Coast now, and you guys are doing all sorts of big things…but do you ever get frustrated with client work and get the urge to start something yourself?

Gary: Absolutely. I probably have that urge every day. But I knew that coming into this, and so I knew what I was kinda going to be doing, and what the negatives were of client services, because there’s plenty and it’s difficult. But I’m up for the challenge and fine with it, and there are good days and bad days in everything. And, I feel like I am doing something for myself, I own the company… Makers Limited: How much pushback are you getting on your ideas? Do you go into these meetings with some clout because of your reputation, or do you have to sell more than you’d think you’d have to? Gary: I’m coming in with more clout than I anticipated, so that’s exciting. Makers Limited: When you started WineLibraryTV, you said it was because you were 1% unhappy with Wine Library. Could you see yourself ever getting 1% unhappy at Vaynermedia, and maybe on a whim, starting something new? Or are you at a different place in your life than were at that point? Gary: I will 100% do that, and that’s always going to be me. I mean, I don’t think Vaynermedia is my last rodeo by any stretch of the imagination. Makers Limited: Any ventures on tap for 2013? Gary: I’ve got a new book. That’s gonna be called Jab Jab Jab Jab Jab - Right Hook. That will happen in the fall. Makers Limited: Has this been tweeted or announced yet? Gary: I don’t think I’ve officially tweeted it, but I’ve innuendo’d it in talks, so some people have caught wind of it, but I haven’t really announced it. I’ll probably do that in the next couple of weeks. So that’s that, and then I’ve got two other things up my sleeve, so we’ll see how it plays out. Last year was a very focused year on building infrastructure for Vayner, I’d like to be another one of those, but I definitely think there is opportunity to do new things. Makers Limited: I vaguely remember hearing when you released the first book that it was a ten book deal, but then heard after the second one that the deal was over… Gary: The first book was signed with Harper Studios, which was a new division for Harper-Collins, and it was a six book deal, with four book options, so in essence, a ten book deal, but they shut that division down, and I wrote The Thank You Economy under a different contract with Harper Business, and that’s why it gave me the option to not do another one if that’s what I wanted. Makers Limited: When you get an idea, what is the process you go through before it becomes a reality? Do you plan it out and start talking to people you trust, or jump right in and believe it from the get go? Gary: You know, I vet it very heavily in my dreams, in the shower, every day…so I’ve got some that move faster than others, there’s no real process. I don’t go away, I don’t have a crew I vet through. They’ve all been different. Obviously AJ is a big consigliere of mine, but I really try to think inside and kind of make a decision and then I just go. Makers Limited: Do you have a go-to designer and developer who you bring your ideas to? Gary: Yes, I’m starting to with Vayner. That’s the cool thing about Vayner, I’m building an infrastructure of designers, developers, project managers that I’m starting to use. So Katherine and Zach have been very go-to for me at Vayner lately, but I haven’t scoped out a lot of products lately…but I’m starting to do that a little bit. Makers Limited: We know the end-game for you is buying the Jets. So with that end goal in mind, how do you measure your success? Is it a dollar amount, happiness, something intangible? Gary: All of the above. I’m proud that I’ve been able to make more monetary dollars every year of my life, so that makes me feel like it’s going in the right direction. I think about happiness, freedom, try to do bigger, creative things…I think about my personal network, who do I know that can help me get there. Do I feel like I’m growing in my knowledge base…a lot of what Vayner was about was to learn a different side of business and see more of the corporate side and see if there were any angles or opportunities there. So, it’s always an evolving kind of process, but it’s a big mix of all of the above. Makers Limited: So one interesting thing I’ve heard you say is that the thought of losing everything intrigues you. Why is that? Gary: I don’t know. There’s probably a part of that that’s bullshit, because who really wants that? At the same token, I have such supreme confidence in my ability to grow, start, and make things happen, that I just feel that everyone needs a tough chapter in their lives. So, I’ve been very lucky, so I’ve always wondered, would it build character to have a really tough business challenge like that? So, you know, there’s a part of me that loves to prove to myself and the world what I’m capable of. I think with VaynerMedia, the fact that I’m now part of a second eight-figure business makes me feel good. I think one time you can be lucky, two times there’s no doubt. So I have pride in that. Look at your list - look at Jack, right. You respect him a hell of a lot more now that he’s got Twitter and Square rather than just Twitter. There’s plenty of people out there that have a lot of street cred, that I’m curious about how good their chops were, who else was really involved. So I’m competitive, I’m driven by competition. I think it speaks to some of my business chops. So it’s very like, I don’t know if it’s shallow, or deep as an emotion. It’s probably a little bit of both. Makers Limited: That’s the word I was trying to get to - competitive. To me, you sound sort of like an athlete, who wants the recognition of doing it in more than one place. Gary: I can definitely tell you that was a big part of the motivation for me in growing Vayner last year. It really feels good. I like the people that are in the know and are paying attention. And you know, I haven’t really talked about that. It’s more about people in the know who I want to show again, and honestly even as I articulate that and say “in the know”, it’s more for myself, right. I’ve always said that eight eight-figure businesses would be interesting. I think I’m capable of it. Some people want one nine-figure business, or one ten-figure business. I don’t know. It’s just always felt natural to me. Makers Limited: When you buy the Jets - I’m not saying if, but when - do you envision yourself as more of a hands-on, Jerry Jones sort of owner, or a leave-it-to-the-football-guys Bob Kraft type? Gary: Definitely more of a Cuban and Jerry Jones. It’s just my personality. I’m very extroverted and very passionate, and if you’re asking me in seriousness, think about what will happen when this happens. The story will be so known. By the time I do it, I know I’ll be in my 50s or 60s. It’s not going to happen in the next thirteen years, I can just feel it. So by then, think about all the videos, all the articles, all the information of how I wanted to make this happen, and think about how captivated the United States of America would be around that story, right? Makers Limited: Right. Gary: I’m just extroverted, right? I might buy the Jets and then get banned later because I may run out and tackle Tom Brady, Jr. Makers Limited: Cuban seems like a good one because he’s been more successful than Jones lately. Gary: Again, both are just extroverted owners. It seems like Cuban is liked by his people a little more. I might be annoying at times to my GM and coach, but I have respect and I don’t micromanage. I’m just going to be emotional. Like, Tom Brady, Jr. throws a touchdown pass against the Jets, and the camera is going to go to the owner’s box, and you’re going to see me biting my fingers off. Makers Limited: Exactly. And you’ll have to save a little extra to pay off the fines you’ll no doubt incur. Gary: Very good point. Makers Limited: I want to leave it with a prediction, who do you think will win in the Pats vs. Ravens game? I know you like predictions, even though you hate at least one of these teams. Gary: I hate both of them, I hate everybody. But I hate the Patriots obviously the most. I hate the Patriots more than crime. Makers Limited: Wow. As a Patriots fan, you know I’m a young guy, you know I’m a Patriots fan, I know you’re automatically thinking, and you’re not going to say it because you’re polite, “This kid has never cheered for a losing team, he’s not a real fan.” Gary: That’s exactly how I feel…the bottom line is, it’s never been worse to be a Boston sports fan. Real sports fans love the struggle and the fight. The conventional wisdom is that it’s never been a better time to be a Boston fan, and some of my dearest friends, and people that I really respect and like in the world are from the New England area, and I can tell you flat out that deep down, they hate all the winning. The Red Sox used to be so relevant, and now they’re just another team. It’s obviously been a great run and I get it, but I’m a very unique fan. I actually love the struggle. I jumped off the Yankees and the New York Rangers after they won championships. So, the Jets are bringing me plenty of pleasure in a weird way. Makers Limited: I think some people would draw parallels between your business experience and your sports rooting interests. It’s kind of interesting. Gary: Yeah you know what, wow. That’s a good point. I hadn’t really thought about that, but I definitely became less interested in the wine business when I started reaching the top of it. — Find Gary on Twitter and join his 985,000 followers at @garyvee.

[makersltd]

Andrew Hales (of LAHWF fame) Talks YouTube Success

I’ve been a fan of Andrew Hales’ LAHWF videos for almost a year. He labels them as “social experiments,” although many people would call them pranks. Videos like “Awkward Elevator”, “Whispering Needy Things To People”, and “Staring At People" have helped make him a YouTube star. After about 13 months making videos (he recently celebrated his one year anniversary on YouTube), his channel has almost 700,000 subscribers and over 85,000,000 views. So, yeah…he’s doing pretty well.

Here’s one of his best-known videos, “Holding People’s Hand.”

We recently had a chance to ask Andrew some questions… Makers Limited: What sort of opportunities have arisen because of LAHWF’s success?

Andrew: Money, for the most part. I’ve been able to travel a lot and just do whatever I want. It’s been a dream. I’ve been able to meet a lot of other famous YouTubers and I’ve been interviewed on a few local news stations. Makers Limited: What steps did you take in the early days to build an audience? Andrew: I bought a nice camera. I hired a filmer instead of getting my friends to help. I think something a lot of people don’t do at first is invest money. Nothing really happens unless there’s money on the line. Also, try to do things no one’s done before. Makers Limited: What do you think it is about your videos that resonates with people? Do you have any rules for yourself when it comes to coming up with ideas? Andrew: I’m not sure. I usually ask myself, “what would I want to watch someone do right now?” and I go do it. Some rules are I try to keep them clean. I always ask the people afterwards for permission. I usually try to keep the pranks positive and uplifting so I’m not necessarily ruining anyone’s day. Makers Limited: Did you learn how to promote yourself on YouTube, or do you have someone helping you out with that? Is the LAHWF “team” pretty much just you? Andrew: I think I just learned how to naturally promote myself. I don’t like to be too spammy and obnoxious with the “PLEASE SUBSCRIBE AND LIKE! I LOVE YOU GUYS XOXOX”. The LAHWF team consists of my filmer and I. His name’s Josh Gibson. He’s one in a million. Makers Limited: Is LAHWF paying the bills? Is it your full-time job right now? Andrew: Definitely. I wouldn’t call it full-time though. More like 3-4 hours a week. The rest of the time I just rot away in my room watching Breaking Bad and eating bon-bons. Makers Limited: What do you see yourself doing for a career? Has LAHWF changed these plans? Andrew: I was originally going to continue this Italian Ice pushcart business I had going, but then these videos started gaining traction and now the channel is all I focus on. I’m trying to dip into comedy sketches and music too though. Makers Limited: What is the single best piece of advice you could give to someone who is starting a YouTube channel? Andrew: If you’re not having fun, you’re doing it wrong. — Follow Andrew on Twitter (@LAHWF) and check out his YouTube channel, where he posts at least one new video every week.

[makersltd]

Meet Justin Beckerman, The High Schooler Who Built His Own Submarine

I stumbled upon a post on Hacker News last week titled “High-school teen builds one-man submarine for $2,000.” It linked to a CNN story, and I read about serial inventor Justin Beckerman, an 18-year-old high school student from New Jersey. I was immediately impressed with his story, and after a couple minutes, it clicked with me that he should be our next interview.

With some help from Justin’s dad, Ken Beckerman, I was able to interview Justin about coming up with ideas, where he gets his inspiration, any future plans he has, and more. Makers Limited: This is your fourth submarine. What is it about creating a submarine that interests you so much?

Justin: It’s not just submarines, I always want to build something or improve on my previous creations. This submarine is a massive improvement from my last submarine. Makers Limited: What did Day One of this project look like? Justin: The first day I planned the sub there was just a simple sketch of what I wanted it to simply look like and didn’t really go further than that with the design. The first day of building I just had a pile of parts on a table and pieced some minor components together. Makers Limited: Who helped you along the way and how? Justin: I mostly do everything by myself, but my brothers and parents lend a hand or an opinion when necessary. My grandfather and a few others also were helpful in discussions. Sometimes, someone is a little less experienced, and they point out some of the more obvious things. It’s a different viewpoint. Makers Limited: Are there any inventors that you look up to? If not, where do you go for inspiration or just to bounce ideas around? Justin: I don’t think there is really any one inventor, I just sort of get ideas from things people have done, or things that I want to do, because it would be fun…and I kind of just do it. I get some magazines, mostly to see what other people have done. I mostly get ideas from TV, or movies. There is an example of a movie that inspired me to do something. I saw a Mars Rover movie when I was in 8th grade, so like a week later, I built a model Mars Rover that was fully functional. Makers Limited: I know you want to explore deeper depths soon. Do you have a launch day set? Justin: We’re thinking Sunday. Supposedly the Discovery Channel is going to be there. Makers Limited: How did the media attention surrounding you and your creation take off? Justin: I think since it’s slowly expanded, it was a local paper, then TV, then Fox saw it and they did a story, and then I did a bunch of little stories off of that, for different papers. Then Business Insider picked up on it, and after that it sort of exploded with other networks… Makers Limited: What are your plans for after high school? Justin: We have been looking. We’ve been looking at Syracuse, Stevens [Institute of Technology], Lehigh…stuff like that. Definitely engineering. Makers Limited: You definitely fit the mold of a serial inventor. Are there any inventions that you haven’t had a chance to work on yet, but would like to in the future? Justin: I don’t know. I’ll see where all my creating takes me. I see possibly starting out at an existing firm, and learning enough to be on my own. I’m not sure. I’m really going to just see where this takes me. Makers Limited: Have you heard the John Mayer song, “Walt Grace’s Submarine Test”? Justin: Yup, my dad played it for me about one month into building the sub. I think that is when the song came out.

John Mayer, "Walt Grace's Submarine Test January 1967" from Withstand on Vimeo.

[makersltd]

Cody Brown talks Scroll Kit, Starting a Company, and "Snowfall"

Cody Brown is an entrepreneur who graduated from NYU in 2010. I’ve been following his work for a few years - first, a startup that he did called Kommons, then Nerd Collider, and now with Scroll Kit. Scroll Kit enables people to make web pages without having to write a line of code. His work tends to always revolve around publishing in some way, and if the waves that he’s created with the New York Times legal department are any indication, he has a hit on his hands with Scroll Kit. Let me explain the Snow Fall controversy quickly for anyone unfamiliar. The New York Times released a widely-praised, multi-part journalistic endeavor in December titled “Snow Fall.” It featured a stunning mix of graphics (seriously, look at it) and storytelling. The Times saw huge traffic. John Branch, the man responsible for “Snow Fall,” received a Pulitzer for his work. In other words, it was a tremendous success. It came with major investments in terms of both time and money for the Times, though. It was a massive effort, and while it paid off, it’s not the sort of piece that the Times could run every week any time soon. Enter Cody Brown and Scroll Kit. Seeing his chance to put his startup on the map, Cody made a replica of “Snow Fall.” It took him an hour. He posted it on Scroll Kit’s home page, hoping to show publishers that they can “Snow Fall” (it’s a verb now) their pieces, too. The New York Times promptly sent him an email asking him to take the page down. He complied. That wasn’t good enough for the Times, as their legal department sent him another email, requesting that he take down his sentence that mentioned “Snow Fall.”

Cody didn’t comply with this latest request, and he wrote about the incident on Medium. His post received more than 100,000 views and spawned other posts (like here, here, and here) around the Internet criticizing the Times’s handling of the situation. Scroll Kit saw more traffic than ever.

I was able to talk with Cody about how he got started, where Scroll Kit’s business is going, and what transpired due to “Snow Fall.” You majored in film…but have you always had an entrepreneurial itch?

I’ve been pretty broadly obsessed with publications, technology, and filmmaking since I was like 12. The thing that got me most into it - going way back - was making stop motion animation films, with a webcam, with our Compaq computer. I got very into Adobe Flash, and that led to learning about programming.

Is there one major lesson you’ve learned from each company you’ve started?

Knowing when to pivot your company is the hardest thing you’ll do. It’s so easy to run toward a new direction but it looks easier than it is at first, and then you realize it’s a huge deal. When Kate and I first started doing this, it was 2009 or 2010, I had learned Rails over Christmas break. But my knowledge of programming and web development was really limited. So, in some sense a lot of what we were doing was experimentation and us getting our programming knowledge up to a level up to where we could execute on the ideas we were having. So when we were first starting, something like Scroll Kit was an incompatible project for us, in terms of how hard it’d be to build that.

So did you look at Kommons as more of an experiment than as a company?

So, no actually, and that’s funny. The only reason we were able to learn as quickly as we did is because we always assumed that we were on the verge. We were always a month away from some huge goal, which is why we worked crazily. For a lot of people, programming is not fun. What’s most exciting is the goal they’re getting to. You really need that to be alive in your head if you actually want to have tangible results.

Is it a challenge to articulate use cases for Scroll Kit because it’s such a dynamic product?

That has been the single hardest thing about Scroll Kit, and something that we’re constantly thinking about. I remember seeing the demo for the first time that Kate put together of the technology, and all I could think was that this was the future, in terms of being able to lay out content as you see it. That was in 2011. It really came down to just being able to see the changes as you were making them. It was something that was pretty familiar, because I had grown up using InDesign, so seeing this in the browser was pretty special, and it was pretty special after I had spent so much time in WordPress for NYULocal, and publishing that way. That kind of publishing after a while feels like you’re doing your taxes. So, we were very giddy about this technical insight we found, and we knew it was the future. At that point, we started thinking about all the ways we could make this more accessible to other people, and to give them the freedom that we previously had in InDesign. The thought that we had was that other people would immediately see this and get this and go crazy with it, and make things that we could only imagine. And so when we pitched at the New York Tech Meetup in 2011 for the first time, we were stuck on our use cases being “You’re laying out a web page,” as our main thing to pitch. And what we found out is that that idea demos very well, because it has a “wow” moment. Helping people once they land on the site understanding what they want to make, and giving them direction, is much, much harder.

So how are you combatting that?

We spent about a year pushing a consumer, more amateur use case. Profile pages, birthday cards…we did a lot of specific press pushes that were particularly about that. With all these pushes we did, we found some success with each one. It was challenging because we felt like we needed to double down on one. We were seeing competitors at the time who did double down, and that gave their products more clarity. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t. So, it built to the point for us to where we got into a partnership with one of the world’s biggest domain registrars, which is name.com. We got into a partnership with them, where you would buy a domain name, and right away connect it with Scroll Kit. We saw an insane number of referrals from incoming people, and we saw the scrolls that they would make, and were usually not happy with what they were making. We realized that if we wanted to go down a more consumer track, that we would need to be a lot more paternalistic in terms of what we would allow them to do on the page. That wasn’t something that was really suited for our platform anyway, and what we found was that every now and then, someone would come to Scroll Kit, and they would have a strong visual eye, and they would make something unbelievably good. So, that’s where we’ve been in the last number of months. We’ve doubled down on a much more pro use case. Obviously we don’t stop people from coming in, just fooling around in the sandbox. That’s how you learn, anyway. But we’ve doubled down on design. Scroll Kit is a professional product.

Did you foresee the sort of reaction that you got for the Snow Fall controversy?

I didn’t really know what they would do. So, let me just tell you about what happened with Snow Fall. We were excited about two things with Snow Fall. First, that the New York Times would actually take the time and make something like this was awesome. It was an awesome endorsement of what we were doing. It came out that they spent eight months working on the project, but we spent a lot longer working on Scroll Kit itself. So we had been doing this stuff for a while. The second thing that we were really excited about was the response to it. People went nuts over it. It got an incredible number of pageviews, a Pulitzer, all the fucking attention that they wanted. It also brought the Times a lot more new traffic. It was a big olive branch to some degree, it brought in a lot more people. This is the kind of piece that raised the brand of the New York Times, and made it more powerful and cool on the web. So, we were really excited about that. So, remaking it in Scroll Kit was just a no-brainer for us to do. It drops on the site, then we got the cease and desist. Honestly if we only got the cease and desist - that one letter - and not the follow-up ones, this would not have been a story.

What did your friends at the Times think of it?

We have a lot of shared values. I don’t think they were too concerned. I think they think it’s cool. You can talk to them, I can’t speak for them. I can say that I had a couple people from the Times reach out to me and say, “Hey, this is stupid, I like what you’re doing.”

Was the controversy a net-positive for Scroll Kit?

It was one of the greatest gifts that they could’ve given us. The Medium post got more than 100,000 views. All of the sudden, the publishers that we were cold-emailing were cold-emailing us, and asking how they could Snow Fall their stories. So we heard from people who we like and respect. We’re still sorting through the responses after all this time.

Can you share anything about what business model you have in mind for Scroll Kit?

I can say it’s pretty typical SAAS, but we do some other things that are a little different. We’re still trying to find the right way to price this, and there are a lot of opportunities. But what I can say that we do have customers and we are making money.

What is your job within Scroll Kit?

It’s just us two at this point. It’s a very big app for two people, there’s a lot to manage inside of it. Kate has been pretty amazing about that. She takes all the major engineering roles for us, and I do design and marketing, and getting people to know about Scroll Kit and to pay for it.

Like any founder of a startup, you have to play a ton of different roles. Do you have a favorite?

Hands down, it’s product. I love product. Making things more simple, that is the most fun.

Anything you thought you’d want to delegate but it turns out you actually like it?

Something that I didn’t think I would like because I assumed it was a lesser position was customer service, and just talking with people, and trying to fix their bugs. It’s totally worthwhile and very fun to do sometimes. They’re using your thing, they’re usually really nice about it, and it’s awesome because you can go off-script, and just like, get insight into what they’re trying to make with Scroll Kit, and learn more that way.

I hear you say you love product, and that makes sense to me that you like customer service…what better way to learn about your product?

Of course.

Are there any advisors that are really crucial to Scroll Kit’s success?

Yeah. So, Clay Shirkey is an advisor. I’ve known him since I snuck into his ITP class when I was in college. He’s always good for feedback and thinking about this stuff. Jeremy Mims, who is the founder of this company called OwnLocal, has been really helpful. He also received money from Knight, so we met that way. Jeremy Mims has been really helpful.

What is the single best piece of advice you could give to someone just coming out of college?

The single piece of advice for someone coming out of college if you want to do a startup is don’t wait. Jump into it. The thing that will happen is that once you accept a position somewhere else, you then just get your first paycheck that is pretty nice, and then adjust your whole standard of living. And the longer you stay in that, the more significant the decision is to do your own thing. It’s way easier to start a year out of college than three or four years after.

Thanks for reading!