How well do you think Amanda adjusted to the violence and gore at the start? Because as much as she’s loyal to John and his ideology… Torture and murder isn’t a common thing to be desensitised to especially when it’s you conducting it?
Sure her upbringing wasn’t sunshine and rainbows- Not to mention her time in prison and as an addict likely means Amanda saw way more things such as let’s say people overdosing or brawling… But we all know that’s different to watching someone chop their leg off?
Her live reactions to deaths in Saw tend to be her teary eyed or even trying to comfort? With Laura Hunter she cradles her body as she succumbs to the gas and with Adam Stanheight- To me it seems like a mercy killing almost… Which when he actually has enough life in him to fight back is when she breaks down fully.
But then you remember she’s behind things like this! Although it’s not as hands on, she purposely designs some traps to be inescapable. Therefore at points prolonging the suffering of the person within the trap and assuring they will 100% die.
I will also state the context and setting for some of these is very important, like for example Lynn Denlon.
The letter is the main catalyst to why Amanda acts the way she does throughout Saw 3. Although, it’s still very likely that she doesn’t believe Lynn should live regardless….
Oh and of course! Gabriela. I can’t be asked to elaborate more but you know what I’m getting at here.
Cracks everything in my body. It's time to yap.
I keep going on in many posts about the fact John is just as flawed as those he tries to ''better'', so I want to go over one of my main comparisons in a tad more depth than I have before.
John Kramer and Jeff Denlon honestly are very similar when it comes to their backstory and need for revenge due to grief. Even though John always states that he tests people so they become grateful for being alive- It's very obvious in some cases, he's doing it for his own type of gratification too. For example, Cecil Adams who caused Jill Tuck to miscarry and then Cecilia Pederson who scammed John. He didn't put these people in traps just because of his philosophy, but because they were also very ''close to home'' for him.
The loss of a child is very integral to both John and Jeff's character. Both of these men crave justice.... However, the way they want it and how they achieve it isn't exactly the most healthy thing. It leads both of them to neglect their partners, Jill and Lynn.
(Just took a break to eat leftover spaghetti I am legit lost in the sauce- I don't plan out these little rants I do, so I just go where rambling takes me.)
When it comes to the major differences between them, Jeff is more rage fuelled, at least in how he carries himself. His anger manifests more verbally and physically than John- Which is his downfall, alongside him not listening or acting when needed.
This is a bit of a reach, but another thought nonetheless and nothing I say needs to be something I'm 100% on anyway. Danica Scott, the only other witness to Dylan's death didn't cause Jeff's son's demise, however her lack of action and fleeing the scene made her someone Jeff would want to take revenge upon anyway.
Amanda, although she had more involvement with Gideon's death, seeing as she was the one to convince Cecil to rob the clinic, didn't take physical action either. However, outside of her just being a drug addict- It is debated whether or not John always knew about her role in Jill Tuck's miscarriage, another reason for her to be tested.
We've also got basic comparisons such as the fact Jill and Lynn are both in the medical field and having mentioned Lynn again? Her demeanour is more like John than anybody else I have brought up in this post I'd say- I can't really word well why I think that, but it's there anyway. (Another thing to add is how in Saw 3, John in his delirious state starts getting confused and thinking Lynn is Jill.)
Might as well slip some others thoughts in here too whilst I'm fucking rambling this much- I don't have too many complex thoughts on Jeff Denlon I guess, I basically seem him as an example within the Saw universe about a person who cannot let go enough that it results in his trauma and vengeance taking over his life and ending it too.
He's not a evil or terrible man, just very flawed. He had some of the physically easiest traps in the franchise to complete, but because he never made an effort to heal and instead remained stagnant within his grief... He takes too long to take action and morally flip flops all over the place when it comes to what decision he'll make- It's that or he doesn't assess the long term consequences of things such as never forgiving.
I personally don't think he ever has to forgive someone like Timothy Young- However, I do believe he let's it impact his life and those around him too much. Corbett didn't deserve the neglect she faced and she herself is a child grieving her sibling. Grief and forgiveness are very hard topics to navigate, but I honestly as a viewer felt the most bad for Corbett more so than Jeff or even Lynn.
Coming back to Lynn, I believe she ''learnt'' the most or at least came to terms with things faster within her trap than Jeff. She didn't have time to dwell or not be fast paced with her choices, because her life was connected to John's. She was doing her best not only to stay alive, but to get back to her family even if it was dysfunctional.
(Me when I come back to this in my drafts weeks later, time to attempt to find the wave length I was on whilst doing this before.)
It's an interesting though to picture different people in other traps. For example, if Lynn was going through Jeff's test. Would she have reacted faster than him and made clear cut decisions? Could she forgive? Jeff is no medical professional and his rage wouldn't let him care for John to the best of his ability so we know he'd fumble that, which is why I'm more so focused on Lynn in his test.
Lynn's grief is more ''subtle'' compared to Jeff's and as an audience it's hard to pinpoint what her thoughts and opinions of those involved with her sons death would've been. She turned to antidepressants and her fractured marriage led her to having an affair, not to mention the child neglect. But when it comes down to it, we don't see as much as a drive for revenge and justice within Lynn as we do Jeff. This would mainly come down to screen time, setting and general context but it's an interesting thought of how she'd handle someone like Danica or Timothy if they were right in front of her.
This is why I say she learnt the most from her test compared to Jeff in his? After everything she went through with Amanda constantly up her ass and power drilling through a guys skull- All Lynn wanted was to reunite with her family. Like, the only time we see Lynn exert full physical violence is in a deleted scene where she attacks Amanda.... And even then that is because she wants the key for her collar more so than a drive to murder the other woman. On all accounts, she actually won that scuffle as well.
But then for example Jeff when he finally encounters John? He just can't help himself! Lynn literally is on the floor bleeding out, reaching for him not to leave and this man just can't NOT go and fulfil his need for vengeance. He'd literally just acted upon it before too by shooting Amanda, though that is more understandable giving the context of the fact she shot Lynn.....
I think overall this is why so many people dislike Jeff but they just can't word it? Like he's been dubbed ''slow ass motherfucking Jeff''- But it's not really the speed of execution, it's either the lack of long term critical thinking and or the fact he's indecisive? Jeff doesn't have the weight of a contraption around his neck and or his life truly on the line like his wife.... However, somehow Lynn is still managing her test better than him with a freaky little lesbian on her ass and doing backhouse brain surgery on some random old dude with a fucking power drill.
I'll also bring up the fact that like John and Jeff, Mark Hoffman has a pretty similar drive and motive to the both of these men. Just like how Jeff saw his sons death, Mark saw the aftermath of his sisters murder for example. All three of them feel justified in their actions against those who have wronged them and etc....
And as I always bring up in character studies like these, the perceptions from the audience are so interesting- Especially when you start comparing characters.
It will come as no surprise when I say, I am a pretty active Tumblr user... Through this? The interactions with media and popularity of characters from Saw on this platform are decently clear. First I'll get it out the way that screen time plays a big role in making characters fan favourites. Although, Adam is a subversion to this as he's only in one movie (alive) and likely the most popular Saw character-
Anyway! Using John, Jeff and Mark as examples here still... As previously stated, these three men can be considered quite alike in some aspects! But our perceptions of them are quite different due to how they're presented and what we know about them.
John is an older sickly man, his life being cut short by the fact he has terminal cancer. His wife miscarries and later on then becomes ex-wife and then also somewhere down the line he gets scammed by a fake cancer treatment....All in all? Dude's kinda got fucked over. But what I haven't mentioned yet in this brief is the fact that whilst most of this is going on, peepaw is designing elaborate death traps and testing people in them slash indoctrinating some into his fuckass ideology! He as a character get's quite a neutral response and or a 50/50 split? He's Jigsaw, the face of the franchise.... There is a decent amount to discuss in regards to him. However, when it all comes down to it it I wouldn’t say he’s favoured as much as other characters.
Moving to Jeff, he witnessed his own son get killed in a hit and run and the grief and injustice of that basically made him spiral into neglecting himself but also his family. He cannot move forward from the loss of Dylan and this is why during his test he is so slow to act- I think one thing to mention here too, is this is something John likely accounted for. Jeff’s test is designed for him and the challenge isn’t that of " OH CUT YOU ARM” it’s for him to overcome his grief and to choose whether to forgive or let those involved with Dylan’s passing die. It’s easy for us as viewers behind the screen to think that he could’ve done almost everything faster. But we’re not Jeff. It’s shown time and time again mentally he just cannot move on and the only reason he is making progress though the test is due to its nature, average therapy? Jeff just wouldn’t go because he refuses to confront HIMSELF in regards to his own grief and would rather wallow in fantasies of revenge.
Mark Hoffman? Obviously the case I’ll bring up with him is that of his sister's murder. Angelina is his only close relative, with no other mention of Mark’s family in the franchise really. So, when she is killed in a case of domestic violence and he also sees her dead body? Yeah, that’s certainly the kind of thing to fuck someone up mentally. Which is why Mark then developed a drinking problem to cope and started to display more erratic behaviour such as shooting a man three times who’d actually surrendered beforehand…. By the time Seth Baxter his sister's killer is released from prison via a technicality- Mark has no quarrels with taking his revenge via abducting him and placing him in a Jigsaw like trap. However, as we all know, this trap is by no means escapable and is only being used by Mark as a scapegoat to get away with murdering Seth. This act then kickstarts his life as an apprentice for John when he himself is abducted.
(I legit forgot this was in my drafts- Months later. I’ll post this now even if it’s not really complete…)
From finally posting my comparison down below about the Denlon's and John, it made me spiral even more into them.
Cracks everything in my body. It's time to yap.
I keep going on in many posts about the fact John is just as flawed as those he tries to ''
I have said it there above and I'll say it again- Jeff's test in my eyes accounted the fact his grief would slow him down. John wouldn't have of wanted him to be able to speed through it, especially due to the fact he's getting improv brain surgery. There was a bit of a reliance on the fact that Jeff wouldn't complete his test like, halfway through Lynn's. Which, I believe sometimes the fandom doesn't think about? Yes he's, ''Slow Ass Motherfuckin Jeff.'' However, if he wasn't Saw 3 would've been way shorter- Like imagine he showed up before Amanda was having her full blown breakdown? And or mid brain surgery.
Another thing I mentioned is the fact that in comparison, Lynn is handling her test much better than her husband... And in turn this actually makes him seem even MORE slow than before. What we have to think about here is though, Lynn was not dubbed the ''best'' in regards to her medical pursuits for no reason. The playing field is working way more with her, the biggest stress and issue Lynn faces whilst going through her test is Amanda. Otherwise, if you took that factor out? Yes she may be using shit like a power drill but Lynn is a fucking amazing doctor. We get to see this even before she was kidnapped because it can be said she should've been there sooner, but when she helped that patient in the hospital she literally stabilised him in almost a minute flat whilst disregarding the other doctors inputs.
Lynn's test doesn't have her constantly facing her own grief and in comparison to Jeff? We don't know whether or not she even holds a shred of need for vengeance like he does. The most we know about the impact it has had on her, is she's now addicted to anti-depressants, neglects Corbett and her marriage is so fractured she's having an affair.
One thing I'll hone on in here is the child neglect... We don't get to see the way Lynn does that as much as we do Jeff. The assumption is her long work hours and being out well... Having that affair! But also how active would Lynn have been in her children's lives even prior to Dylan's death? She to me is the main ''breadwinner'' let's say and Jeff is more so the one who is regularly looking after the children, because Lynn is a literal brain surgeon where generally surgery can last from 3-5 hours to even 5-7! How much did her role as a parent change when Dylan died in regards to how active she is in Corbett's life?
Shuffling back to the games- It's also such an interesting concept to think of Lynn going through Jeff's test, I stated this before in my previous post but it's still an ever running thought for me.
Jigsaw tests tend to always be specifically designed for the person within them- In the Denlon's case they're being tested for almost the exact same reason... They are husband and wife after all. So although I don't think that means oh yeah they can be inter switched! Everything is still very close to home for the both of them. Like if Lynn was face to face with Timothy Young the way Jeff was, that is the man who killed her son. Mistake or not. It's whether or not she can or wants to forgive.
Lynn in theory and I guess also in practice really, is good at detaching her emotions from what is at hand. Does she like John? No- But will she ignore that in favour of living? Yes! The same way possibly in her career she has had to save the lives of people morally she doesn't agree with. However, as previously mentioned- This is so much more closer to home. So does that all go out the window for her? We just don't know.
I'll stop here for now because I'm a mad man who rambles too much- Thanks for reading if you've got this far down!
-MAL OUT
