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"Risse in der Mannschaft haben sich schon in der letzten Saison gezeigt. Heutzutage kommen die Spieler aus vielen verschiedenen Nationen und sprechen verschiedene Sprachen. Da gibt es automatisch verschiedene Gruppen. Da muss man dagegen anarbeiten, aber das hat im letzten Jahr schon nicht besonders gut geklappt. Ich habe jetzt den Eindruck, dass alle verstanden haben, dass es so nicht weiter geht."
Hans-Joachim Watzke über das Klima innerhalb der Mannschaft
Man hatte ein bisschen das Gefühl, dass der ein oder andere Spieler nicht total von dem extremen Vorwärtsverteidigen begeistert war, weswegen die Mannschaft das nicht mit der letzten Inbrunst getan hat. Auch bei eigener Führung war das ganze immer ein Stück weit fragil.
Hans-Joachim Watzke über das Verhältnis der Mannschaft zu Peter Bosz
2009 beendete der Amateur-Fußballer Tony Quindt sein jahrelanges Versteckspiel und bekannte sich in seinem Team und öffentlich zu seiner Homosexualität. Seitdem setzt er sich öffentlichkeitswirksam für die Belange schwuler Fußballer ein. Seine Verbindungen reichen bis in den Profi-Bereich. Im Interview erklärt er im Rahmen der SPOX -Themenwoche Tabus im Fußball die Schwierigkeiten eines Outings und berichtet von den Schauspielkünsten schwuler Profis.
A gay footballer: an interview with Tony Quindt
„Two pro players want to come out, but…“
Interview: Jannik Schneider
In 2009 amateur footballer Tony Quindt ended the „game" of hide-and-seek he’d been playing for years and came out as homosexual to his team and the public. Ever since then he’s been committed to the cause of gay footballers, generating a lot of public interest. His connections span professional football as well. In an interview for SPOX’ week of Taboos in Football he explains about the difficulties of coming out and the acting talent of gay pro footballers.
SPOX: Mr. Quindt, earlier this year an exchange between Thomas Hitzlsperger and Clarence Seedorf at a FIFA congress went viral on social media. Seedorf had enquired, with honest interest but also quite resolutely, why Hitzlsperger cared so much about informing the public about his sexual orientation. The German answered that public declarations and coming-outs would be necessary until they became a normality, and got predominantly positive feedback for it. What’s your take on the situation?
Tony Quindt: I approve of his answer as well as the wide coverage it got. Mr. Hitzlsperger’s wish for a piece of normalcy for himself and all of us homosexual footballers, athletes and people from other lines of work is understandable and a step in the right direction.
Many people hoped his outing in 2014 would open the door for active footballers. But for the most part, nothing happened since. Why is it still so difficult for professional footballers to come out?
I had high hopes back then, too, maybe too much so. I expected several to join him soon. Maybe the timing of his outing, a few months after the end of his career, was too late. The reactions back then weren’t purely positive, especially in religious circles. In some parts of society and football as well, there was yet a need for education. There were public statements like „I don’t know how I would have felt if I’d had to share a shower with a gay teammate at the same time.“
Jens Lehmann said that in a talk show.
Yes, but it wasn’t just him. There are still a lot of reservations, sometimes publicly stated, sometimes off the record. In order to come out a footballer needs confidence and security. The latter isn’t always a given with football clubs, on any level. A lot of factors have to align. The player would have to be sure that his team, his coach, the board and even the sponsors will stand behind his decision. We’re far away from that in the Bundesliga. Still, Hitzlsperger’s coming-out was a step forward. Other footballers saw the reactions and can now assess it for themselves.
Thanks to your public work you’re well-connected. Did you know he was gay before his outing?
Although I know a few gay Bundesliga players, I didn’t know about him. An official coming-out helps the gay scene get more acceptance. But I do learn a lot and know who’s gay and who isn’t.
The American footballer Robbie Rogers decided to come out in 2013 after a slump in his career in England, initially he retired while only in his mid-twenties. A while later LA Galaxy successfully encouraged him to come out of retirement.
Another positive example. He was accepted within the MLS. And I’m sure he made his contribution to American society in general and a lot of gay people can identify with him.
He’s been quoted as saying „We [gay footballers] are such great actors, because we’re afraid to let people know who we are.“ You’ve made that experience yourself in amateur football before coming out, is that true?
At home I was free of all of that, but being at my football club, with my teammates that I liked very much and had known a long time, I couldn’t be myself, due to my homosexuality. I was always anxious and tense and had to be careful: What do I say? How do I move? Does that look masculine? I was afraid and didn’t want my colleagues to find out and ostracise me.
What consequences did that have on the pitch?
I was always the quiet one. But I played roughly, sometimes too rough, to come off especially manly. And it went on seamlessly after the game, when the team went for a beer together and talked about women. I wanted to belong so I had to join in on the conversations and just made up stories about picking up women. I constructed a whole parallel world. With stories about women, girlfriends, more and more details. At some point it became very exhausting to keep up a believable front. One lie followed the other, story after story. There came a point where I didn’t know myself anymore what was true and what wasn’t. This mental stress finally led to the decision to end it all and come out.
Did this game of hide-and-seek impact your performance as a footballer?
Definitely. The difference was noticeable. After my coming-out I was freer on as well as off the pitch. I wasn’t so occupied with myself so much anymore, didn’t have to constantly check and keep up my façade, I was just myself. Tony, playing football with his lads. I felt really good, really free. It was such a relief.
And your team?
A lot of teammates told me months, even a year later how positively the coming-out affected my personality as well as my performance as a player. Apparently it was plain to see.
Do you think that’s applicable to professional football, though?
For sure! The pressure to perform is even much, much higher there.
It’s about nuances.
That’s why you cannot appreciate enough the achievements of so many gay footballers. If the need to hide went away, who knows what would be possible. If a Bundesliga player came out officially and the club, the fans, DFL, DFB and politicians supported him and at the first game afterwards created a general atmosphere that put the player along with his team at ease, that would certainly send out a positive signal. And that player maybe wouldn’t remain alone for long
But a coming-out can have negative consequences, too. There are probably several users thinking, “he can talk, playing only in Kreisliga [District league, 7th tier]”. What reactions did you get?
In my club there weren’t any negative reactions, none at all. Of course there were bound to be one or two guys who were uncomfortable, but they never let me know. Instead I got a lot of encouragement, congratulations and was engaged in conversations about it. And the crowd always cheered for me - and in the village that meant a lot of pensioners with thoroughly conservative views. For example as I was about to be subbed in the cheers got really loud. I’m getting goosebumps just talking about it. That motivated me very much, I’m not taking it for granted.
What about the opposing players and fans?
That’s what surprised me most of all. Players from other teams approached me before the game and wanted to talk to me. I had expected a lot more head wind and negative comments. And when the players from the opposing team are so positive, the fans don’t say anything either.
And in the heat of the battle, during a game, in contentious situations, there were no insults, no inappropriate comments or homophobic slurs?
No. No situation that would fit that cliché.
You said you knew gay pro footballers. Can you give us any insight into how they manage to arrange a life in professional competitive sports with their secret private life?
By now everybody should be aware that there are gay Bundesliga players. And they keep up this - in quotes - perfect life for society. The successful athlete with a pretty woman in a perfect relationship. There are special model agencies where you can book women for public appearances, relationships and also fake marriages. So in public they do everything that a real girlfriend or wife would do.
Do all gay players do that, without exception, because it’s something like an unwritten law?
Well, there are many who handle it that way. But there are exceptions, who just officially live alone and don’t care what people make of it. But all approaches have one thing in common.
Being?
Whether in a fake relationship or single: all homosexual footballers put in a lot of effort in order to be able to live their sexual orientation in secret - or just to meet their boyfriend.
This mental pressure and the fear of being caught has to be inhumanly heavy?
There are cases where gay footballers actively got separated from their agency women because they couldn’t stand it any longer. Thomas Hitzlsperger, too, before his coming-out was engaged to get married to a woman. This game of hide-and-seek, the mental pressure that comes with it, I don’t think anybody can endure that for too long.
On the one hand, no professional footballer feels ready to come out. On the other hand society protects their secrets. Nothing is leaked to the public. How does that compute?
When gay players out themselves to their circles, the gay scene or towards journalists, it’s always about agreements. After all, the player’s actual existence is at stake. Say a player was outed against his will by a journalist or a group. What would happen?
He’d deny it.
Exactly. But on the whole, that would be much worse for the player than the hiding beforehand. With this new extra pressure he’d have to try and keep up delivering his performance on the pitch, arrange his private life and keep up his whole attitude towards life in general - all while being especially watched by the media and consequently, the public. But from what I’ve seen of these agreements in the past years, no journalist would dare. I think, anyway, that the press plays a special part here.
Which one?
Gay footballers who don’t want to come out have to be protected. An involuntary outing is no good to anyone.
Let’s get back to your own story. Did you have a concrete plan after making the decision to come out?
I did take a little time to prepare. But there was a lot of spontaneity as well. I didn’t know and was afraid how the teammates would react. These fears: What do I do if they don’t accept it? That completely preoccupied me. Because I greatly enjoyed playing in this team, so there were a lot of What-ifs weighing on my mind.
So how did you go about it eventually?
I brought a man along with me to a team party and introduced him as my boyfriend (smiles).
Wow! Quite forward.
Yes, that provided plenty to talk about (laughs). But in the long run it absolutely was the right decision.
Do you know of any German professional footballers generally willing to come out? Or is the general attitude „Hell no!“
I’ve heard of two footballers who have talked to each other about it and are thinking of doing it, but only in a group with other players. They don’t dare if it’s just the two of them.
The English Football Association’s chairman Greg Clarke stated six months ago that he’d talked to several gay footballers of the Premier League and encouraged them to have a synchronised coming-out which would get a lot of public attention. At the same time he advised against trying it on your own.
I’d approve of that. Provided there’s an organised plan for it. Rushing into something badly thought out, without proper preparation, with a sensitive topic like this one could become problematic. Some clubs have sponsors from regions that are not that far advanced where education and tolerance are concerned and it could blow up in their face.
Why do these two German players have reservations?
Because with only two players, especially as they don’t play for the same club, the focus would be very much on them. If suddenly more clubs had gay players the situation in the stadiums would get easier, as well.
In what way?
If there are homosexual players in both line-ups, neither fan group will sing homophobic chants.
So to make a note of that: There are two Bundesliga players that intend to come out.
Yes, it’s true. But as I said: They don’t dare yet. And I can understand them. Bundesliga with everything to it is something else entirely. Those two think the entire construct as such isn’t ready yet.
Are DFB, DFL and German football in general doing enough for the education about and acceptance of homosexuality?
Especially where the media’s concerned there’s still a lot to improve. Not just for the national associations like DFB. The regional associations, too. There’s a lot of talk - I myself have been to talks with my regional association in Schleswig-Holstein. But too little action.
What do you mean in particular?
I organised a tournament against homophobia with my club in Elmenhorst and the association supported me, they provided jerseys for the winners with the slogan „Schleswig-Holstein kickt fair“. But beyond the gesture I didn’t recognise any true intention to do something.
Do you have concrete ideas?
Several. Borussia Dortmund had a special "day of action" surrounding a Bundesliga game. Why don’t other clubs? No other Bundesliga club in recent years thought of this actually quite simple idea. Though Berlin’s football association has been exemplary for years now. Beyond that I’m campaigning for the issue to be part of the training of coaches and referees, as a compulsory subject! Coaches and refs have such a huge influence in professional football. Concerning the associations, the magic word is publicity.
Amateur football reflects a large part of society. Over the years have footballers gotten in contact with you when they wanted to come out or for advice?
I always get messages and feedbacks when I’ve done big interviews like this one. A lot of great messages, but sad stories as well, and notes of discrimination. Those just make me shake my head. Those messages aren’t just from footballers, but people from all kinds of different sports, referees as well. It seems it’s especially tough for them.
What do you mean?
There’s a referee with over 30 years of experience that got into touch with me. Ever since it became known that he’s homosexual he’s not been allowed to work anymore-
Excuse me?!
That’s what I said. I asked for the reasoning. They said that because he’s into men, there’s a danger of him favouring players because of their attractiveness. So he was put on leave.
By a regional association?
As far as I know by DFB. I was speechless, it’s a classic instance of double standards. On the one hand they want to campaign against homophobia and support Hitzlsperger’s statements. And then in a concrete case like this in amateur football they’re acting like that - DFB themselves.
Let’s talk about more pleasant things. In addition to the league you play for a gay football club from Hamburg. Are all the players from the gay football club also active in, as you call them, hetero clubs?
The club, by the way, is for lesbians, too, and the ages range from 16 to far into the 40s. When I joined I was the only one who also played competitively, it was a pure-hobby team. By now there are three players who play for another club - all of us for Elmenhorst.
Three’s still very few.
But you mustn’t forget: A lot of them come to Hamburg especially for the community. Everybody in that team is gay. For the duration of training nobody has to pretend or hide. We thought about registering with the league. But we weren’t enough people. But for those who want to be more serious about it there are fewer obstacles now than there used to be - at least in my club. We’ve organised friendlies as well. The gay team greatly appreciates my team’s tolerance. Nobody’s discriminated against, that’s why the other two transferred to us.___
Jannik Schneider, the interviewer and editor of SPOX, wrote on twitter that they’re following up on the story of the referee who was put on leave and trying to get more, reliable information
