#stuffandthangs

[snappytoesandtheshinningman]

@bigbaldhead ❤ #NormanReedus #ManCrushMonday #MCM #normanreedus #mcm #mancrushmonday #DarylDixon #daryldixon #TheWalkingDead #thewalkingdead #TWDFamily #twdfamily #TWD #twd #Pookie #pookie #Handsome #handsome #CharmingMan #charmingman #Boo #boo #Actor #actor #Bigbaldhead #bigbaldhead #StuffAbdThangs #stuffandthangs #myedits #MyEdits

[twdmusicboxmystery]

☺️☺️☺️ #twd #thewalkingdead #twdfunny #twdedit #twdedits #stuffandthings #stuffandthangs

[applefia2036]

Day 7/365 #winterbeach #jakobstad #365dayphotochallenge #365 my plan was to post one pic everyday but i had #stuffandthangs to do, but the daily posting will resume ... hopefully. Lets tag some mo #tree #snow #mostphotographedtreeinjtown #sihlouette

[mc-critical]

What are your thoughts on on how Hatice handled Esmanur? Do you think Ibrahim had a right to a relationship with Esmanur given what he had done to Hatice? Do you think there was even a morally correct way to handle the situation? Admittedly until this day I’m not entirely sure how I feel about it. I truly hated Ibrahim for cheating on Hatice and she had every right to feel everything she has felt, and she refused to kill or hurt Esmanur and even allowed Nigar/Ib to see her, but I remember Ibrahim wanting more and it makes me wonder if that was realistic or even possible..

I certainly find Ibrahim's infidelity to be one of his worst actions: I know that despite of Hatice pulling rank on him out of ignorance and not malice, it hurt him a lot to hear what he heard from one of his most loved people and I get why he may feel alienated and want to distance himself from Hatice for a little bit, but he took it way too far at some point, both deluding Nigar and upsetting Hatice in the process. I disliked how he didn't even want to listen to what his wife had to say most of the time and didn't tell her anything at all. It all went way past Hatice pulling rank in that one scene in E29 (in which also Ibrahim didn't answer anything to Hatice's accusations even before she uttered these words - I get that he was simply in shock that she would ever accuse him of infidelity like this, but Ibrahim's silence only made matters worse.) and I'm sorry, but yes, she had the absolute right to feel how she felt and I stand behind her much more than I do Ibrahim in this, even though both motivations are perfectly understandable.

I honestly think Hatice acted in the best way she knew how when it came to Esmanur: in her decision, she regarded both her position as a member of the dynasty and a part of the family and strived to do as little harm as she possibly could. Because according to law, she could've killed all three and Valide Hafsa had the exact same fear and imagined it in her head when she went to SS in E58. Not to mention that SS left the decision to Hatice alone and he said that he wouldn't oppose whatever she decided. She could've freely ended their lives and no one could really judge her for it, but she chose not to. Secretly hiding Esmanur and especially lying to Nigar that her daughter was dead was definetly a shady move, but I guess that she considered that some kind of punishment was in order. The infidelity got to her dynastic pride and dignity in a massive way and that's why she refused to accept the daughter for so long and decided to rather hide her, pretend she didn't exist, yet still have someone care for her far away. Ibrahim also wrote her a letter where he said that he didn't regret anything and that broke Hatice's heart even more and put her in denial in her persistent insistence for him to burn it.

Hatice's arc about forgiving Ibrahim in relation to the Esmanur storyline developed in two levels: first she wanted for them to begin anew by themselves, without anyone else around, then she wanted for them to begin anew with Esmanur, too, hence again, dynastic pride and family values clash once again with each other in Hatice and find their resolve. She let Ibrahim see Esmanur, but it took her a while to do that: because is it easy to accept the daughter of another woman? Not to mention how in some moments Ibrahim seemed to value her more than his kids with Hatice, because he considered her as something out of the dynasty's hand, that could be fully his and that even resembled his own past self to some extent. She was the daughter of Teo, the fisherman in Parga, not of the grand vezier Ibrahim Pasha, the position that puts so many expectations on the person who wields it. That's why he always demanded more and that's also why Hatice showed so much resistence at first: to her, he not only violates the laws of the dynasty, but tarnishes the honor of the family and puts it in such an awkward position. Because Hürrem is right in that Esmanur, the sweet little girl, would be the walking reminder of the infidelity and what Hatice and Ibrahim have gone through, and that's the very thing they want to somehow get over. To Hatice, if the daughter ever comes in her own home, it would make the recovery from the situation much harder. Because she wants to forgive Ibrahim, but to do that, she has to get over some deep seated beliefs of her own.

When some time passed, when both slowly seemed to go back to normal, she was ready to accept her, underlined in her going to see her. Here she fully takes Ibrahim's feelings into account: she realized how much that daughter means to him and since a child is one of the biggest family values, too, to her (as seen in her consistently strong wish to have a child in her desired family throughout S01 and S02, along with her earlier biggest losses being losses of children), she can go as far as accept it in her home, to start over as a new, better, more stable family and have the wishes of both her and Ibrahim be fulfilled accordingly. But the needs of both once again clash and the roles reverse: because now Ibrahim doesn't want to have her in their home, but to have more than that, to go in his own accord in order to still preserve what he values the most about this daughter, along with his fatherly love for her. Hatice and Ibrahim succeed to truly start over only when they find a compromise in the front of Esmanur, as well - for Ibrahim to go see her when he wants (and give her to Matrakcı), but not to have her in Hatice's home and I find that the most moral solution of the issue, when it comes to the time period, his crime and Ibrahim himself.

Still, that's my opinion and I don't think a true moral solution can be offered, again judging by both the infidelity and the time period, which makes the situation even more iffy and complicated. The moral solution I would chose when it comes to Nigar would be for Matrakcı to give her the location of the daughter after Ibrahim's death for her to go there and live with Esmanur in piece. As I mentioned in the ask about Nigar as a whole, I consider this the perfect narrative send-off for her character, as well: a happy ending she absolutely deserves. Her efforts to find and permanetly take her daughter in her arms would finally pay off and she would preserve a memory of what she sees as the best moments of her life. Enough time would have passed for her to have "paid" for her crime, so I think it would be just for her to find happiness eventually.

[Side note: Plot and drama convenience aside, I believe Matrakcı didn't tell Nigar where her daughter is because of deep or maybe already subconscious resentment of Nigar after he divorced her right in their marriage's first night and the whole "horn on his door" situation happening. Yes, he logically has to resent Ibrahim for this, because he caused it in the first place, but I always felt that like Nigar, Matrakcı had such tremendous loyalty for Ibrahim that he idealized him. And even when he called him out on his methods both in the horn situation and the beggining of S03, he eventually let it slide and held no grudge. He refused to talk to Nigar whatsoever after the horn incident and he told her some very harsh words when he was drunk and it's very possible that he didn't let it go completely. They have broken his heart when it came to love (Sadıka) and it's also possible that this may have hardened him or he simply loves Ibrahim that much to blame him for stuff for long or maybe internalized mysoginy? It's solely a theory of mine (and the internalized mysoginy part may be a stretch), but it would make sense.]

[mc-critical]

So I was rewatching some of MYK Season 2 and it had me thinking..do you notice the insane amount of parallels and overall similarities in character arcs between MYK’s Beyazied (Gulbahar’s son) and MY’s Mustafa (Mahi’s son?). Both had a sense of undying loyalty and love/respect to the respective sultans of their time while also meeting their demise at the sultan’s hands, both maintaining positive relationships with their half-siblings despite opposition from their enviornments, both being the only children of mothers who weren’t favorites but were extremely politically ambitious and skilled. Both being princes popular with the janissaries of their time and were seen as a looming threat towards the sultan’s power. I even feel like like Beyazied and Mustafa were similar in their disposition and sense of justice and morality. Tell me am I wrong here because I really can’t unsee it they feel so similar to me😭

Yes, MCK Bayezid and MC Mustafa share the same character archetype (hence why they have the parallels you mentioned), but that's the only thing they're similar in for me. The archetype is only a baseline for both of their characters - their development goes in a very different direction.

The thing that sets them apart the most from the start, is that Mustafa's strenghts and flaws are shaped more by sheer personality, while Bayezid is a character shaped more by curcumstance. That leaves room for more development for Bayezid where he eventually changes his stance on people around him, while despite of every hint of change, intrigue or word of advice, Mustafa's principles and beliefs stay the same.

Both Mustafa and Bayezid have a missing part of their lives that shapes their flaws, but that part is different in both of them. No matter how much support Bayezid seemingly had, he always missed his mother and wanted to see her face he's long forgotten, he wanted to see her all the more with each and every letter of hers. And once that chance presents itself, thanks to Murat, no less (good job, lad, good job, indeed....), he would surely want to see his back from exile mother in a good light, despite of all the wrongs she has done. That's why Gülbahar was Bayezid's blind spot. His love and respect for his mother goes beyond comforting her, defending her, hiding her mistakes and saving her from death, something that Mustafa would be also likely to do - with each event passing, Bayezid also begins to listen to her more and more, becomes convinced of her words that he's born in a middle of a war and sets himself even further against Murat and Kösem. Mustafa, on the other hand, has always been next to Mahidevran in every step of the way, with everyone around him avoiding their separation at all costs, hence he can be much more independent of her perspective. She can only go so far with opposing Mustafa's decisions, he always ends up choosing to do what he sees as right and just, even when his beliefs are challanged. He doesn't let his beliefs to be challanged by anyone. He doesn't want to let his beliefs to be challanged by anyone. He loves his mother deeply and he's also developed a need to protect her at all costs, but that need is based on his awareness of all she has experienced and to prevent her to suffer or worry ever again, not out of missing her whole self, which makes it a need outside of Mustafa's own predicament and decisions.

Mustafa wanting to keep his principles firm originates from his wish to prove himself to his father. Süleiman is Mustafa's blind spot. We see how much he wants to be next to him and have his attention even when he was little and since Mustafa was given a sense of purpose ever since then, too (while Bayezid has been living a life where he didn't yet see the dangers of the world in their fullest extent before Murat's complete downfall and before Gülbahar; he even mentioned to her that he didn't want the throne, even though he was constantly suspected of betraying Murat.), sure he would want to prove himself worthy and follow what SS (and Ibro and Mahi to an extent, too, but especially SS) has taught him when it came to ruling. (like when he chose justice instead of SS's order in E92, which, even though he disobeyed, wouldn't be right or just, since that person was slandered. Musti revealed that he acted like what SS has told him in the past, it being justice is most important.) Even when his father acted against him, Mustafa trusted him blindly, refusing to believe that a father could ever kill his son, even in close probability, no matter what everyone else around him said. (he wrote the letter when Cihangir told him of SS's words in E123, but Musti went to SS anyway, his trust being much stronger than his biggest inkling of suspicion.) He loved him too much, even when he slowly came to realize the growing wedge between them, never succumbing to the temptation to directly rebel against him. (except the kaftan situation, where his trust was directly put into question by a supposed action of his and even then Musti went to merely confront him and die as a warrior if it lead up to this, not kill him, and the trust became stronger than ever afterwards.) Bayezid, on the other hand, always sensed the danger Murat posed in some way, and he realized that no matter how much he proved his loyalty at first and refused drastic action at first, he would always keep suspecting him. Bayezid was allowed to see Murat in his biggest cruelty, at one point, Bayezid didn't see him as fit to rule anymore and was more than ready to dethrone him after an act too cruel by him in Bayezid's eyes. Even when he respected Murat, Bayezid didn't seem to want to prove his worth as much to him or to have gained his principles and beliefs by him and the bond between them wasn't as close, not for Bayezid. The cruelty of the world and Murat's own cruelty grew more and more, hence Bayezid became more open to criticize them and more ruthless, as a result of this. He strived to evade his wrath more than anything. And at one time, there was no turning back now between Murat and Bayezid, which also played a part in his execution.

The way Mustafa views Hürrem and the way Bayezid views Kösem are both very different, too. While I don't feel Mustafa completely hated Hürrem, per say and even in S04, he was rather done with her bullcrap than anything else, he had some resentment for her. He was aware that she played a part in Mahidevran's suffering and sensed that Hürrem giving birth hurts his mother. Still, he knew where the line was: he respected her position as a Sultana and the mother of his brothers, didn't blame her instinctively, didn't fault Cihangir for choosing his own mother in the kaftan sutuation and was willing to listen even in the peak of his resentment. (in E121, where he didn't believe that she wasn't behind the trap.) Bayezid had a more familial bond with Kösem, since she was like a mother to him when his real mother was missing. I feel he appreciated all the care she took for him and even loved her until a point. But once he turned against her, the mutual respect between them was gone completely, with him eventually discarding all she did for him and Kösem disowning him. His resentment for Kösem slowly grew through Gülbahar: the seeds were planted with the letters she was sending to him, which made Bayezid feel he didn't belong, opening a hole in his heart, and then Bayezid being open to listen to Gülbahar more and more with her setting him against both Murat and Kösem. Bayezid tied Kösem to Murat, while in truth, she acted outside of him. Bayezid eventually became convinced that Kösem was a danger. But while circumstances also helped, him standing "on the other side of the war" was bound to break them apart. Bayezid and Kösem already had different goals. The more he sided with Gülbahar's view, the more that cemented their rift. He fully stood against her once she confronted him about him hiding Gülbahar, that made him give up on her to the point he agreed to have her killed in the Eski Saray, since then it would be easier to take down Murat. Despite of Mahidevran's view and experiences, Mustafa's resentment of Hürrem grew because of her own actions: all her attempts to kill him are what made him embittered towards her to the point of him declaring that he won't have mercy on her and Rüstem. He views her actions separately from those of Süleiman- he's aware that she's trying to eliminate him with all her might and that she could maybe involve Süleiman in that, too, but still strives to see a bigger picture. All that is why his actions against her are more defensive than they're offensive and only go so far as to show her her place in some way, not to directly try to kill her, since he regards the feelings of his siblings, too. He sees her and Rüstem as a tandem in S04, but even then he would do actions more against Rüstem than against Hürrem.

I would say that Mustafa has a better relationship with his brothers than Bayezid. He truly loves them a lot and always considers what they have to say, no matter what, but his brothers themselves, even Selim, loved him, too, and never got in conflict with him, expect for the aftermath of him saving Selim from the janissaries, some side scenes with Mehmet when they made amends almost immediately or that one case where they both were little. And he indeed never stops caring about them. I wouldn't say the same for Bayezid, however. While he did share the same affection Mustafa had for his brothers at first, Kasim always had a strained relationship with him and it kept getting more and more strained by each day (even Ibrahim resented him at one point, too). And yes, truly, Bayezid did try to reach out for him many times, Kasim seeing Bayezid and Gülbahar's secret firsthand and the whole Kalika situation sealed things between them to the point of no return. He set himself against Kasim completely, turning out that Gülbahar succeeded to drive the wedge between them. (of course, Mahidevran also had this similar intent, but what I found interesting with her is that, E55 aside, she mostly tried to make Mustafa look at them merely as rivals and in E69 she did tell him that his love for them made her proud regardless; I'm preparing a whole post about comparing Gülbahar and Mahidevran I hope I'll finish some day ahahah) By deciding to take what's rightfully his, Bayezid disregarded his brothers, too. (I understand why he did, but still.) His perspective on them changed just like everything else.

I agree that both Mustafa and Bayezid have a sense of justice, but while Mustafa's justice is based more on morals, principles, nobility, familial bonds and "doing the right thing" in general, Bayezid's justice becomes more "warped". Bayezid sees many injustices done to him or his mother and no matter how much he held back from acting the way his supporters wanted him to, he comes to respond to the injustice with injustice, as well. Or worse yet, he already views the injustice as justice. He perceives leaving his previous, "purer" principles behind as what is right and since he's in a war, he's already ready to do "whatever it takes" to ascend the throne. It's like he restrained himself for too long while reality around him ensued. Mustafa was always aware of this reality, even if deep down inside, even when he was trying to deny it when it came to SS, yet he chose not to leave "his own self" behind. Despite of all the intrigues against him, he responded to the injustice with justice. He held onto this until the end. He held onto this in spite of every opposition or injustice. And yes, both of these approaches were to Mustafa and Bayezid's detriments, respectively, in their distinct circumstances.

Sure, both of Mustafa and Bayezid did "the right thing" prior to their executions (going to SS - choosing not to go to the persian şah as a way out). It was expected for Mustafa, due to his established character and flaws, but for Bayezid it has become the exception - I saw him as more irritated that Gülbahar and Sinan worked behind his back when he told them not to a while ago, but maybe when he didn't succeed to do what he attempted to get on the throne, he decided that he'd rather die, but not run. And his mother's safety was still his first priority, even in death. Even then he didn't exactly realize his mistake, rather that he would be executed for it, since he still acted high and mighty in front of Kösem. Mustafa wasn't really aware of why SS called him in the first place, he wasn't aware of the intrigue with the letter, he didn't know what went wrong, hence he didn't have a true reason to doubt all that, despite of the words of everyone else, so of course he approached the situation like he typically would. It was only Cihangir's words to him where the doubt appeared and he still didn't back down on his decision. Bayezid took a more immediate decision based on curcumstance (with one scene with him ruminating in his chambers), while Mustafa took the decision he usually would. They were both executed by their fathers, but due to different reasons and even before the executions and with their once same foundation as characters, both of them acted differently here.

Though no matter how different they turn out to be in hindsight for me, I still consider MCK Bayezid as a response to MC Mustafa anyway - what MC Mustafa would've been if he let curcumstance influence him and decided to act against his father. (I also did mention in your previous ask about Mustafa that the fandom does tend to view him as MCK Bayezid's exact copy sometimes, but that isn't quite true.) When the crippling realization that your parent could disregard you comes through and you decide not to stand by that and let your survival instinct kick in, after all. Anyhow, I find both of them very interesting to compare and contrast and I love both of their characters, so thanks for giving me the chance to delve into this topic at last. ^^

[mc-critical]

How similar did you find Mihrimah to her mother as a character? I’ll be completely honest I found it a bit comical how other characters in the show or even fans of the franchise would consider Mihrimah very much her mother’s daughter while I personally feel they contrasted in a very important way: Mihrimah was born into privilege that Hürrem never truly had, or at the very least never had the full extent of. Mihrimah was considered “one of the dynasty” and was treated and accomodated to as such from day one, and I feel she got used to having pretty much everything at her fingertips for the most part and it showed in her interactions and the way she processed the events that would take place around her. Hürrem on the other hand would have elitism applied to her through all stages of her life and spent her entire life either climbing the social ladder in the harem or fighting to maintain her spot. I won’t deny that Mihrimah certainly posseses strength and intelligence in her own right but a spitting image of her mother? I wouldn’t think so. What do you think?

Truly, I've also always wondered why Mihrimah is often considered solely "her mother's daughter" and nothing else. I get why the characters of the show do so, because there are certainly times she behaves similarly or absorbs her mother's assessments completely - Mahidevran calling her as tenacious as Hürrem when she found out she organized a secret meeting with Taslicalı, Mustafa comparing her to her after she was blindly unwilling to understand his point of view in E121 and especially, Şah Sultan telling her outright that she's like Hürrem, when in the season 3 finale Mihrimah took it upon herself to go in her mother's footsteps when she was considered fully gone. These points of view I understand, because they had one particular reason, one particular event that triggered their reaction. What I don't understand is the fandom taking these at face value, even when they have the full picture of her character, because in spite of these moments, Mihrimah is very different from her mother.

The contrast you brought up is very important, because Mihrimah indeed has something that Hürrem doesn't and Hürrem herself relies and capitalizes on that, expecting from Mihrimah to achieve what she couldn't. That's why when Hatice used elitism on her in the beginning of season 2, Hürrem turned to Mihrimah specifically and it was also why it was she Hürrem was sharing her dreams and ambitions with from early on. It makes Hürrem lean on her and Mihrimah acts accordingly. She not only takes her position for granted just like her aunts, that same position becomes utilized for her mother's goals. This contrast reflects on her narrative role and arc, as well.

Ironically, Mihrimah seemed closer to her mother when she was little than when she grew older. When she was a child, we could definetly say she was set to succeed Hürrem, exceed her even. The way she professed she isn't like the other princesses (paralleled with Hürrem's: "Don't compare me to anyone else."), the way she wore the crown for a bit, which was her character establishing moment, the way she thought of strategic intrigues that gave Hürrem a run for her money when Mahidevran ruled the harem... We could easily think she was her mother's replica, but worse, similar to grown MCK Dilruba, only more simplified, spoiled and brash without a truly overlying motive. Little Mihrimah was supposed to be like that simply because of it, but it looked like we had to take the hint she was the dynastic version of Hürrem's most over the top relation to the power she already had. (which, by the wedding, wasn't little at all.) This didn't end up being the case at. all.

The difference in Mihrimah's arc can be underlined best when we compare it to the arcs similar to Hürrem's - the arcs of each sultana from the Sultanate of Women. Hürrem is presented as the unwarranted beginner of the Sultanate of Women in the show and the characters in it followed the same patterns of their respective arcs, even when it was showed in a different order. (we saw Safiye's gradual fall, instead of her gradual rise) Now, historically Mihrimah is a part of the Sultanate of Women and at first, she was set to be it in the show, too, as I described. When she grew up, and especially in season 4, however, we saw quite a difference in her role and arc that diverged from everyone else's. Not to mention that she got the crown only briefly until she broke it, she didn't get the thematic ring the others got, either, the ring that became key for all these sultanas, which is telling in a symbolic way. If she were a spitting image of her mother, wouldn't she get all that? But let's ignore these technicalities. Every character of MC's Sultanate Of Women has a primary motive that is survival and rise and keep of power that is most thoroughly shown to us through Nigar Kalfa's advice to Hürrem in the first episode. Mihrimah not only lacks this particular motive, by most of season 3, she has yet to find her own. Mihrimah's character didn't have any solid foundation for a long period of time: at first she was brash and spoiled, because she was and because she could, then she didn't do that much in the script aside from her love stories, she had room to breathe before it all became more serious. She had the chance to discover herself. To venture into her love adventures with Taşlicalı and Bali Bey. Neither Hürrem, nor the other sultanas of the SOW had that chance. They are put into the environment right from the beginning, while Mihrimah had to be put into it much, much later, so the foundation of her character came only then and only by some of the second half of season 3 and the whole season 4 it came to the surface.

And when her motivation and foundation finally appeared clearly, they were nowhere near Hürrem's. The main thematic exploration of the Sultanate of Women was their growing relation to power and the way it evolved from Hürrem to Turhan. Mihrimah's relation to power wasn't at the core of her thematic arc. Mihrimah's character is about familial protection. Throughout the series, she was pushed to do what is necessary to protect her family. Anytime Hürrem or Rustem beg her to do something, they use the well-being of her brothers as an argument, which she believes in wholeheartedly. Even the moments where she was defending her mother, like episode 84, was not because it was powerful for the sake of being powerful, but was rather a reaction of hers to try to defend the threatened. She is taught to value family most of all and doing everything for them she considers right. The turning point for her character was marrying Rustem where her monologue highlighted that realization of hers - she did something she was strongly against, but she had to do it for her and her brothers' own good, despite of the wedding being like a funeral. That could be paralleled with the culmination of her overall arc - her stealing Mustafa's seal that was also supposed to be for her family, but had more dire consequences she had to come to terms with. (and arguably didn't, because protecting family and legacy is way too engrained in her now.)

For a while, Mihrimah had an allegedly idealistic perspective, which is why there were times where she tried to act as a peacekeeper in such a system. That made her quite a bit more perceptive than her own mother - she predicted the possibility of an eventual fallout between Selim and Bayezid, calling them, not Mustafa their biggest problem. Coupled with her idealism, she wanted Mustafa safe and sound for very long and was in a good relation with him. Her character is about familial protection, but isn't Mustafa also part of the family, of Mihrimah's own blood? It's what she thought, too. That perceptiveness and perspective were muted by Hürrem and Rustem more often than they weren't, of course, but they existed and they brought them into conflicting situations. Would that be the case if Mihrimah were a spitting image of her mother?

One more thing important to note is that Hürrem (along with the SOW of the show) is guided by what became her own feelings and desires, Mihrimah learned to let go of them. I feel what Mihrimah wanted most in her life were true love and piece. Hürrem had found her love in Süleiman, but Mihrimah's journey in finding it has always been stopped by something or someone else time and time again and when someone (Dr. Pedro) finally offered her a way out, she decided to stay on her own terms. (I don't think she would've gone with him, even if Rustem didn't threaten to kill him) She has been told that piece is impossible in this period (Rustem: "Life isn't a fairy tale, Mihrimah.") and she had to use her own power when she didn't want to at all. She didn't want to think of the consequences her actions would cause right until reality ensued.

The necessity put upon her and her feelings and desires were clashing constantly with each other, while with Hürrem they were in near perfect accordance and when they weren't, she made them to be soon enough. With Mihrimah the times where she chose to act with her feelings and the ones where she acted in necessity were always taking turns narratively, leaving us to wonder which one would prevail in what moment. And the more time passes, the more the necessity prevails, because she accepted it.

[mc-critical]

So I honestly thought of this ask from the Dilruba ask you got that spoke about Safiye’s idolization of Hürrem and Nurbanu. It makes me think, I felt like in observing Safiye’s character, she exhibited a phenomenon in which you’ve spoke of before, in which she reached a point of her life where she completely internalized and became the toxicity in her enviornment. I feel like she put Hürrem and Nurbanu on such a pedestal (especially with Nurbanu having treated her so terribly) is because she adapted a Social darwanist mindset of sorts which caused her to firmly believe that those who were/are “strong/worthy” were those who succeeded within the system by any means necessary, even if that meant killing and harming even those closest to them. It felt to me almost as if she came to “understand” Nurbanu’s stance towards her or even sympathized with it albeit in a strange, traumatized way? Or when she wanted to pass down her ring to Kösem after she suceeded in killing Iskender, it was almost like she wanted to congratulate Kösem on being able to kill her son. It’s interesting, like her entire moral compass was completely warped having been in the harem for so long and in unlike any way I can recall seeing on other sultanas in either franchise. I don’t remember Mahi/Hürrem coming to idolize Hafsa later in their lives but this could also be because the SOW time period was still relatively fresh in their time and Hafsa may not have wielded or exhibited as much power as Nurbanu may have as a valide sultan. What do you think?

Yes, Safiye as a character is the embodiment of these destrustive philosophies to the extreme. The toxic system leaves no one untouched and she is indeed one of the characters in the SOW and in the franchise overall that is the most affected by it.

Unlike Hürrem and Nurbanu, where we get a solid exploration of what exactly made them this way, with Safiye we have the philosophy set at the very start, her introduction sets many things clear. We know that she loves power. We know that she wants to keep that power until the end of time. Her role as an antagonist is revealed immediately in her unwillingness to give up her power. One may find her a little less multi-faceted, precisely because her motivations were more vague than the rest- we don't get anything outright with her, we don't get much insight. We're left to figure things out by ourselves. That doesn't make her a cardboard cut out however, given that we have very vague reasoning, but with enough context to see what's behind it. I find her "backstory" counterpart very interesting in that she could only be used to drive a contrast between MC E139 Safiye and MCK Safiye, be presented as the former shadow of Safiye's self, what she has previously been. With only a single scene we technically have her foundation, but what is retroactively set-up (her worship of Hürrem aside) is completely turned on its head. MC E139 Safiye is perceptive that one day you have to step out of power, but that's the primary dilemma of MCK Safiye, the very thing she refuses to do. It's hinted that she has had many, too many years of power in the harem and it's not only something she has become used to, it's much more than that: it's as if she's had this power her whole life. The prospect of her losing it has become truly unthinkable, out of reach. She has gained an self-image of greatness that would always "sustain" the castle and preserve its life force. She's accustomed to endless, limitless power. She has set her own network of people. She loves every aspect of this power: both the simple and the complex stuff, from her long morning routine to her orchestrating things from the inside. Her power as a concept alone is her whole being and I don't think she ever separated herself from her royal demeanor. She is always power and majesty and splendor everywhere, from her dresses, to her mannerisms, to her constant addressing of herself as "we", taken from European courts.

I agree that she values power as something for herself and something that is hers by right, not for the advantages or disadvantages it may bring. Safiye doesn't care about that: as long as she's there and in power, it would all be fine, it would be enough. Safiye has her own distorted understanding of applying power: she speaks constantly about the dynasty and the country (just like many sultanas), but she leaves them aside completely when she's threatened. And she doesn't view what she does as morally right, she's always ready to play dirty in order to maintain her own accomplishments and to outplay everyone else. She actually resorts to dirtier and dirtier tricks the more she loses her power. I did mention when paralleling and contrasting her with Kösem in another ask of yours that Safiye, unlike Kösem, doesn't focus her efforts on reaching out to the people, she is a lone wolf when it comes to power and she is projecting indisputable superiority on everyone she's in front of. The closest relationship she has is with Bülbül and even that is merely an addition to Safiye and the result of him being the person always next to her and fills all her whims much more than it is all genuine affection. The Darwinian philosophy is what she lives by; and the notion that she gave the ring to Kösem because of her starting to respect another person's own power except for her own, admitting that someone has outplayed her, doing it only because someone has outplayed her, is really important. Her arc was about finally accepting defeat after deluding herself for so long that no one could truly eclipse her, but then again, has she gotten completely over her toxic environment? Hardly. Because once again, by giving the ring, she symbolically continues the SOW cycle that has, in the show, many toxic aspects especially when it comes to power. Safiye could respect people only when they keep up for longer than she anticipates, have been tied up to her in a more "unconventional" way and have a (previously and contemporarily) good position on the hierarchy. She did accept Kösem as a rival at the end of the day, in part probably because she started off as someone loyal to Safiye and evolved way past that, but didn't accept Handan, because she couldn't face it that someone like her, someone she perceived as weaker, can now rule over her. I saw Safiye as someone finding disobedience from a person previously loyal to her more challanging than a permanent, irreparable change of the hierarchy she is strongly dissatisfied with. Her elitism is so strong that she doesn't go past it even when there is a change in position. She doesn't get over that biased, stereotypical thinking.

She worships this Darwinist philosophy in Hürrem, that she's the strongest survivor, that she has prevailed over her opponents, without having the chance to know the bigger picture and has heard only the banter of someone who is still biased to her after all (Mihrimah). She shares this philosophy with S02B post-E59 and S04 Hürrem in even scarier extremes and that's what she has set as an example for herself. It's true that she takes this mindset from this cult to Hürrem, too. This very disrupting cult of hers. But then again, I never saw her sympathizing with Nurbanu, per say? She's perfectly able to acknowledge Nurbanu's cruelty and correct me if I'm wrong, but the only praise I recall for her is her being the most beautiful (but the cruelest) sultana she's ever known? Which in no way indicates sympathy. But I wouldn't brush off at all Safiye viewing fer experiences with Nurbanu as the twist of fate, in which she has prevailed after all, but could acknowledge the ones before her. (but not after her, Kösem aside.) Safiye isn't that kind of person that would show in any way that she has experienced trauma, but she could've brushed said trauma even deeper within than other characters, to the point that her direction even would never ever indirectly hint at it, keeping her usual regality in check.

[Hürrem did say she set Valide as her own example in her last words to her in E61, but I get how it could be missed when she also lamented their previous, not so good experiences and told her about Nigar and Ibrahim, which put an end to Valide's life. Mahidevran, on the other hand, never mentioned Valide post-S03 outside of saying that they would bury Fatma in Ayşe Hafsa's mosque (was it?). They both mourned her death, but interestingly enough, both of them have "violated" her memory in some way by wanting her chambers. Mahidevran wanted the chambers to set her own model in the castle during her harem ruling period, while Hürrem wanted it to show she could one-up everyone, for them to respect her the way she thought she deserved. There truly wasn't this worship to such extent as in MCK, also because it presented the beginning of the SOW rather than the peak of it. There wasn't much to blindly praise there, hence the effect wouldn't be as strong.]

[mc-critical]

On Hatice’s character, I feel like she more or less was cheated of a better character arc which could’ve made her more likeable or easier to understand (almost everyone I’ve encountered who is into the series has extreme distaste for her character.) Though I don’t necessarily feel any particular form of intensity towards her character I do wish she could have been explored a bit more? I can see why she wasn’t likely due to time constraints/needing to stay consistent with plot lines but it would have been nice to see. I feel like everytime Hatice was on screen, mentioned, or involved in the plot line it was in conjunction to or in relation to Ibrahim. Even after Ibrahim was dead, Hatice’s whole storyline was just..Ibrahim. It was clear that she was emotionally unstable and dealt with attachment issues from the start of the series, likely resulting trauma from her father’s bloody reign. We’re told she was “her parent’s favorite/the spoiled one” according to her siblings, we’re hinted at some sort of past fued between her and Sah but no real context. We rarely got to see her interact with her children. It’s like we only were given tiny bits and pieces of Hatice as her own person and everything else about her just existed to string Ibrahim along. It’s quite sad..what do you think?

Eh, I absolutely adore Hatice as a character and I feel she got a very solid, well-written character arc. I'm pleased with what we got with her in the show and I think that her nuance tends to be massively overlooked.

The center of her character is not really Ibrahim, but rather the line between family and dynasty. And while that seems to be attributed with Ibrahim in the strongest way, it also channels in who Hatice is as a person and her interactions with other characters like her mother, Süleiman and Hürrem.

Hatice has always been the sultana of blood that is closest to the dynasty, but also the one that wants to detach the most from it. As you said, she had lingering trauma from her father's reign /which indeed is only hinted, to be honest, but that's the whole backstory of Selim Yavuz, what we got from his cruelty in the show was basically hints two flashbacks. We were told by Süleiman of his defining deed, we were told by Valide and Hatice that they saw his father in him, but the rest remained pretty much vague, which isn't a problem with Hatice's character. However, it may come off as a problem with SS's character, since more backstory would better explain his paranoia outside of actions of the "suspects" taken out of context, would render Mustafa's death a little more understandable and would highlight even more his character arc, for Selim Yavuz was his "Azraeel", according to him, but that is a post for another day./, but on a more personal note, she has witnessed the death her former husband, which puts her panic and fear over death in another light. Her backstory isn't that focused on, because it's not all that important for her character arc: because while Mahidevran has to get over her past and Şah Sultan tries to consistently set herself for the future, Hatice has to face the events of the present. She's an effective deconstruction of the Princess Classic trope she started up as: an innocent, fragile, kind hearted princess, no sign of trauma whatsoever who strives to create a family of her own, as a bonus. After she meets Ibrahim, she feels like she wants to be in that adventure with him, she not only falls in love with him, but he fills her with hopes and dreams for a better life. Look how when she marries him she wanted to get out of Topkapi as soon as possible and always repeated that she wanted for them to be a family, that she wanted to have piece. Even her love for Ibrahim is much more deep seated than some plain obsession that is only used as a plot device or to prop him up. She's grown with beliefs that have been a part of her life and sometimes she lets them out out of sheer ignorance, no matter how much independence she wants in her personal life. Her whole relationship with Ibrahim is a back and forth conflict between dynasty and family that is only a vector for her arc, not the entirety of it.

It's often ignored how pivotal is Hatice's relationship with Valide. The closeness she has with her, especially compared to her other sisters, shaped up all of Hatice's life long beliefs. Namely Valide is the root of Hatice's love and respect for the dynasty, being next to its female representative her entire life (see also Valide's flashbacks in E58) and witnessing the way she dealt with things, the way she ruled the harem, the way she made decisions. Even Hatice herself considered her as her role model and wanted to be like her. (she told her this in E61) It was as if Valide was a preserver of all the virtues Hatice deemed as worth having. She has a tremendous respect for her and her opinions and this is what brought her to hide her love for Ibrahim more than anything. The respect she has for the ottoman laws and the ottoman dynasty and the ways she got used to them made her to do anything but admitting SS and Valide her true feelings.

Valide is an indirect reason of Hatice's supposedly "inpartial" point of view in the harem that let her judge things more fairly. It's not that Hatice was completely unbiased in her relationships with Mahidevran and Hürrem early on, because oh no, she wasn't, Hatice always was on the dynasty's side in this war, but for her dynasty always advocated fairness and preserving piece and order. She wasn't afraid to call out whoever she thought was wrong at any time and even when her bias had completely (and honestly, rightly in many aspects) impacted her in terms of Hürrem, she wasn't afraid to admit that she was right about Firuze after all. Hatice also has a very reactive personality: she doesn't let anyone provoke her and quickly responds when she's provoked. She's not provoked only about Ibrahim, she's also provoked when it comes to both family and dynasty, overall, seeing Hürrem and Mahidevran quarrel in E11, Fatma and the concubines challenging Hürrem in E47, Mahidevran attempting to kill Hürrem's children in E55, Mihrimah defending Hürrem in E84 etc. Whenever something she cares about is opposed or attacked by someone, she would always spring into action, which is a very consistent trend of her character as a whole.

{There are many reasons why I personally find Hatice sympathetic: she's one of the most ethical characters of the show, acting as a peacekeeper wanting to keep everyone out of their struggle, she's always ready to help, she cherishes love (her wanting to marry Sadıka to Matrakcı), there are so many people she cares about outside of just Ibrahim - Mahidevran, Mustafa, Valide, her sisters and their problems impact her as well, despite of how "self-centered" she may seem at first glance. She, just like MCK Gevherhan, is so humane to everyone she interacts with, trying her very best to empathize with them. (to the point Mahidevran told her in E05 that if she keeps up worrying only about them, she will wither in this palace) Her trauma and circumstance also bring in a lot of empathy for me, because significantly little of it is her own doing, compared to other characters. We see a character that deteoriates both internally and externally often as a consequence of her simply fearing she would lose everyone she loves and that her life would be once again, filled with illnesses and death.}

[Truth be told, I don't get the Hatice hate, like AT. ALL. I don't know about you, but people I've encountered on the Internet couldn't give me a valid reason as to why they hate Hatice so much. They either reduce her to a "whiny", "crying", "spoiled" or "evil" bitch, either say they hate her because she breaks down a lot or because stood up against Hürrem for no reason, which is totally untrue, in my opinion. I genuinely haven't seen one (1) good argument as to why she deserves such ire. They mostly look at a more dimensional version of S03 Hatice and forget everything that set up S03 Hatice, or they hate Hatice exclusively because of S03, which.... eh? I would dare say that there are more reasons to hate Mahidevran than there ever were to hate Hatice (even though the hate directed at Mahidevran is, once again, for all the wrong reasons) and if someone gave me an actually good reason to hate Mahidevran, I would understand, but Hatice? Even her more questionable actions were ultimately provoked by something or someone.]

Her first traumatic experiences in the present is also connected to the kids she's lost. Yeah, giving her more time with her living children and seeing her more as a mother is the one thing I would definetly change in her writing. We didn't get enough of that and it would be a breath of fresh air. But then again, losing so many could've demotivated her and the last time she was pregnant we also had this prevailing, but understandable fear. It also just doesn't play such a big part in her deconstrustion-to-become-flanderization-in-character-development arc.

We gain a gradual, broader perspective into her a bit later in the narrative, and perhaps that eventually broken first impression would cause disappointment - Hatice could be prideful and while she wants to detach from the dynasty for her family, she values her own position and the rights that are offered with it. She could be easily offended by remarks made to startle her. She could be demanding sometimes. But that existed along with her good traits. Hatice was the most reasonable and morally unproblematic character of the main cast overall and by S01/2, that truly showed.

If we refer only to S03 Hatice, it would make a tiny bit more sense for people to not find her that sympathetic. Because while she underwent a good flanderization arc, it's still flanderization and some traits of hers seem to be more present than others in that season, especially knowing the trajectory of said arc. It may look like there isn't a sympathetic reason to do what she does, as if she's like this all of the sudden. But here's the rub: season 3 wasn't supposed to give this much context to Hatice's actions, it's the pay-off of a build-up, the peak of her arc that leads to a resolution. Season 3 wasn't supposed to repeat stuff that has already been established, all Hatice is doing there, has been set up for an entire season, if not more. We already know what's driving her, we already have the sympathetic reasons. That's why all the attention is given to her actions that bring her to tragedy, not to introspective scenes.

Back to Ibrahim's relation to Hatice's character: A common affirmation I hear is that Hatice's rift with Hürrem was caused thanks to Ibrahim and Ibrahim alone. There's so much more to it than that! While we had the scene that started the build-up and the one that ended it be about a possible/already a fact infidelity of Ibrahim's as a parallel, these are only a part of it, not it in its entirety. Keep in mind that the one thing that fully set the upcoming enmity in motion during S03 is Hürrem taking Valide's chambers. And at first Hatice wasn't about to blame Hürrem for it all when she went to tell it to his majesty (her saying to Gülfem that it doesn't matter who told her about the affair) with her claiming that Hü ruined her life only after their confrontation for Valide's chambers. And here we return to the center of Hatice's character: thing is, whether we liked it or not, Hürrem always was a threat to the dynasty in Hatice's eyes. Şah asked her the infamous question: "The dynasty or Ibrahim?" when she was asked why is Hürrem a threat in E81, but I think both are in conjunction, yet independent of each other here. Hatice values tradition just like her mother and Hürrem breaking them all would cause some kind of disturbance. She got distraught right after she was freed and married, claiming that it had to be stopped before it happened, look also how she told Afife Hatun that Hürrem had to be gotten rid of because she caused unrest in the harem! Not only Ibrahim's death, but Valide's death impacted her so much, she thought someone had to supposedly protect the dynasty for what is to come before everything goes haywire and that's what she attempted to do the entire time. In S03A personal motives clearly ran together with the apparent protection of the dynasty (I sometimes like to parallel Hatice's dynasty with Kösem's state in my head, despite that Kösem's urge to protect the state comes more with her role as a ruler and regent and measures out of necessity, while Hatice's comes from willingness to preserve balance and harmony in a more personal level.) and she considered Hürrem as a threat to everything Hatice believes in. She seems to also take on her mother's footsteps in that regard, in a way, using common for Valide methods like sending a concubine to SS etc. She considers Hürrem a threat for her own stability and well-being and that isn't limited to just Ibrahim.

Her relationship with SS is the one that is probably the most connected to Ibrahim, judging by their first more "nuanced" scene for me (him deciding to marry Ibro and Hati) and fallout (the confrontation for Ibrahim's death), but that could be also connected to what Hatice has previously experienced and genuine respect for him as a brother before all the rocky stuff happened. And interestingly, her deep resentment and then despise of him is targeted at him bringing Hürrem to their lives, not simply just killing Ibrahim, though that was also an intensely strong motivator of hers.

Hatice's bond with Mustafa is also strong even before she fell in love with Ibrahim. She also considered him "the future of the dynasty", played with him in the gardens, comforted him in tough times when she could. They didn't have as many scenes together, but the relationship added a good amount of flavor to her character.

A reason why I think Hatice's relationship with Mahidevran is so precious and criminally underrated, is that this is the relationship least centered on Ibrahim, second only to Hatice's with Valide. Their scenes early on is mostly them being there for each other and being happy with each other's moments of good time. They're very bound to each other and are very good friends that still have a dynamic relationship. The temporary S02B fallout between them has everything to do with Hatice's disappointment and disbelief of Mahidevran's own failings. She also threatened something Hatice cared about and did something she didn't expect of her. And that isn't barely noticeable, Hürrem even remarked that Mahidevran is becoming alone in E58. (oh my, I hate this scene with passion, but anyway.) After that their dynamic then remained basically intact for S03, expect that they could act more like allies than friends. But that's a given, due to the more intense events in the palace and the tonal shift of the show.

I find her dynamic with Şah fascinating due to their contrasting personalities and strained, yet loving relationship. The feud between them had enough context given to us through Beyhan's words to Şah in E83: that Hatice not only was Valide's favorite, but she apparently had the life Şah wanted to have, which explains Şah's ambition and supposed distance and secrecy well enough. More backstory would mean destroying the interesting duality in the relationship and wouldn't make Şah's motivation half as interesting and uniquely presented as it was, to be honest. Which is why I find her dynamic with Hatice way more interesting than her dynamic with Hürrem (which is good, too, but pretty generic), but that's also a post for another day. But Hatice is actually the more open person in this dynamic and the one more revealing her feelings. Şah wanted her to move on from her losses, but Hatice objects so strongly because it all has gotten to a completely personal level, with Şah trying to redecorate her castle, it would look like she's trying to change her from the outset, her as a person, which is something Hatice would never agree with. But then again, it's clearly shown that deep down Şah cares about what Hatice wants and is trying to do the best for her in her own way. And the emphasis is again put on family: they still get along and reconcile, setting their differences aside.

Many of Hatice's introspective scenes were with Gülfem and while they talked about Ibrahim many times, we could still see the amount of powerful support between them. Hatice shared everything with Gülfem, it was as if they knew everything about each other. They were each other's comfort.

She showed moral support to Beyhan, as well. That is another familial relationship that shows both casual and profound interactions. It's not there as much, but that's more because of Beyhan's limited screentime, not because of something to do with Hatice.

Even her arc with Ibrahim isn't all about him, but is also tied to the core of her character. The line between dynasty and family drives their whole fallout and if it wasn't there, the conflict between them wouldn't ever take place. Hatice ultimately forgiving Ibrahim is more about her getting out of her own dynastic outlook, which is a relevant character development of hers that happens along with her flanderization. And that plot-line is as important as the flanderization, even more so, and it pushes it forward. It was a resolution of the conflict with family and dynasty in Hatice, not exactly forgiving Ibrahim just for Ibrahim. (that is also a factor, no doubt, because she loves him and he is a part of her character, but not all her character.)

Overall, for me Hatice is a multi-faceted, amazing character that is actually very fleshed out in the span of three seasons. I don't find much issue with her writing: everything that happened with her is logical and well-explained if you look closely enough and I don't want more for her arc. It was original and outstanding for what it was, both as a character concept and a dynastic sultana of the franchise.